Serious Orlando mass shooting

[HailFall]

This is certainly about LGBT people and that should be the sole topic of this conversation imo. The focus should be on the victims, not how you can use the victims to justify your hatred of Muslim people or push anti-gun rhetoric. Do not erase the fact that what is quite possibly the largest mass shooting in the US committed by a single person was against LGBT people.

 

[Aladyyn]

HOWEVER

As part of the lgbt community, I'm gonna say it. I am so sick and tired of bullshit comments like this being littered all over the internet. So many people and so much of the media are so Islamophobic that you guys just want to use this tragedy as an excuse to fuel further hatred towards Islam or to make this whole thing about ISIS. It isn't about bloody ISIS or Islam. He was a lone wolf. You can claim that the murderer was part of ISIS or practised Islam all you want, but what if I told you he was also part of the LGBT community? What if I told you that he was a semi-regular at Pulse (the night club he shot up) for three years? What if he frequently used Grindr (gay dating app)? What if I told you he was a closet homosexual, and that his self-hatred and hatred for gays was manifested by the society he lived in?

I am sorry that radical muslims keep shooting things up, I guess we should just ignore it huh. Pretty much every time there's been a tragedy like this in the past few years, it was linked to radical islam. It's perfectly reasonable to have that as a point of discussion.

The issue with posts like yours is that it detracts our attention from the actual issue at hand. Here we are discussing about extremists when it isn't even about that. I find it concerning that so many people are so narrow minded with their hatred for Islam, that in the context of the Orlando shooting, this is all they can talk about. We should be talking about the inherent homophobia that exists within the US, as well as the lack of gun control within the US.

You're ignoring the point that you don't like, which is the same thing you're criticizing?

Again, the real issue here isn't Islam/Muslims. The real issue at hand, and that issue is homophobia. I need to remind you that homophobia is not only isolated to Islam, but it's an issue that is shared across numerous religions, all races, and all society. Why are we using this tragedy to blame one religion? If we want to point fingers, then the entire society is to be blamed. Homophobia/transphobia is rampant because much of the US society promotes anti-LGBT values. Men in black suits sending out all of these hate propaganda against the LGBT community, projecting the notion that it's okay to treat LGBT like subhumans. People in fancy robes handing out flyers about how evil LGBT people are. These seemingly passive actions against the LGBT community undoubtedly shapes the way people think and act.

RADICAL ISLAM IS A HUGE FUCKING ISSUE. An event like this is usually complex and can't be looked at from limited angles. Yes, homophobia is an issue, gun control being too lenient is an issue. Gun control is potentially rather simple to fix, homophobia will get better in time, but we do not have a solution for the threat that is radical islam, so yes, it's the "realest" of these issues.

Also it seems USA has too many retarded people, so that's a real issue too I guess.

I need to remind you that acts of this kind of violence against the LGBT community has occured for decades, particularly in the 60s-80s. The Orlando shooting is NOT an isolated case of violence against the LGBT community. Acts of violence against the LGBT has been carried out by people of all racial and religious backgrounds, but it's pretty convenient to ignore that fact and make this all about ISIS and Islam and what terrible human beings they are, because they're the hot topic right now hey. We need to use this tragedy to look at the bigger picture (i.e. both homophobia/transphobia AND gun laws).

The society has made incredible progress in regards to LGBT since 60s-80s, the process takes time, you can't change peoples' views overnight.

Also sorry, radical islam is still the bigger picture.

The Orlando shooting should be about raising awareness on discrimination against any minorities, lgbt, race, whatever. More than that, I feel like this event should be used to preach about love and compassion and kindness and acceptance. We shouldnt be using this as an opportunity to fuel more hatred, especially one that is uncalled for.

Please come back to the real world.

Hatred is the best way to control the public's opinions.

p.s. I forgot to talk about this but I need to mention this, had it been a Christian radical, you can bet that the media would not have bothered to bring it up. You wouldn't see "Christian radical shoots up gay club" in size 36, bold font, plastered all over the front page. Also, you can't tell me that it isn't concerning that a lot of the media has reported this case as "[Muslim/Radical Muslim/Man with links to ISIS] attacks nightclub", with minimal mention of it being a GAY night club.

American media suck ass, what else is new, their coverage of EVERY shooting is absolutely horrendous.

 

[JES]

Media turning the main focus from gun laws into Muslim business / LGBTQ rights. How convenient.
As Rugi have said, pretty much everywhere outside the USA were criticizing the gun laws, rather than talking about LGBTQ stuff.

"Guns are to protect us" is a very Republican thing. It doesn't really protect you. It makes your society more dangerous because people can kill people efficiently.

"If we don't have guns, how do we protect ourselves from the government?"
Why do you need to protect yourself from the government? Why would your government kill you randomly?
Seriously, if your government is against you, there would be hydropumps or tanks everywhere, so your guns don't really do a thing anyway.

There are people who fear the conspiracy theory that under the direction of the oligarchs, who are not satisfied with just being able to buy politicians, are planning to help those in the government and military establish a police state/martial law, probably using false flag attacks or waiting for a huge natural disaster like Yellowstone to happen.
That would be far easier to do if the people couldn't retaliate. But we are going down a rabbit hole here.

All that said, even if it is true, I do believe we need gun reform, to keep this sort of weaponry out of the hands of lunatics like the one we have been discussing, and in the hands of those who only wish to defend themselves, their friends, and their family. There must be psychological evaluations that can be made to determine if a person holds others lives in regard, for example. And I think the Republicans prevent any sort of reform because the gun lobbyists line their pockets in return for protecting their profit margins.

 

[Chou Toshio]

As I said in my first post in the thread... I think it really is about all three.

-This is absolutely about the cultural and systemic characteristics of society that drive and maintain inequality and violence against LGBTQ specifically (and minorities in general broadly)
-There is absolutely a need to have a mature and productive dialogue about the problems with Islam-- about the fact that while globalization has been violently forced upon the Islamic world, that Islam lives in a world where Shariah Law and many of the literal teachings of the Korran are not acceptable. A hard discussion, but we must foster a path to progress lead by Muslims, and a greater understanding of Islam and our shared history amongst Westerners. "Islam has got no problems" is not an optional stand point in my view. Christianity also needs a similar discussion.
-We must absolutely address the fact that gun violence does not exist in other first world countries like it does in the US, and that an "armed citizenry" does basically nothing for public safety or preserving liberties.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

Islam-- about the fact that while globalization has been violently forced upon the Islamic world, that Islam lives in a world where Shariah Law and many of the literal teachings of the Korran are not acceptable.

I think that globalization is the best way to end terrorist groups, Islamic or not. For example take a look at how Dubai and Istanbul are doing being globally connected cities. Terrorism has no presence there because of relatively decent government and openness to global markets. And they maintain their culture.

I like Obamas decision to renew trade with Iran. The billions of foreign dollars that flow in will benefit that society so much and pressure government to be socially tolerant ; the way corporations pressured North Carolina after the "bathroom bill" will happen in Iran(to a lesser extent but big improvements will be made)

Countries with shit governance refusing to be part of the global world will continue to be unstable and be a place where terrorist can operate from. When those countries someday have good leaders and be part of the rest of the world there will be no Isis for the Orlando shooter to fight for

 

[eden]

Media turning the main focus from gun laws into Muslim business / LGBTQ rights. How convenient.
As Rugi have said, pretty much everywhere outside the USA were criticizing the gun laws, rather than talking about LGBTQ stuff.

"Guns are to protect us" is a very Republican thing. It doesn't really protect you. It makes your society more dangerous because people can kill people efficiently.

"If we don't have guns, how do we protect ourselves from the government?"
Why do you need to protect yourself from the government? Why would your government kill you randomly?
Seriously, if your government is against you, there would be hydropumps or tanks everywhere, so your guns don't really do a thing anyway.

exactly. If the american government actually wanted to...it has access to the american army. Basically the army that laughs at all others...so a bunch of untrained joe schmoes vs that, is p much a no brainer. You don't need protection from your own government,because its moot either way, if they actually wanted to harm you...you'd already be dead lol. And LGBT rights have been a bone of contention for far long, conservative religious groups let their views impact our governance(hence why gay marriage was only legalized recently) and our education(hence why creationism is a thing taught in the US); the matter is political to an extent but the fact of the matter is,a lot of people died in a mass shooting, cause of one crazy man who had no business having access to guns in the first place.

EDIT: meant no business but yeah tl;dr things need to change

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

but the fact of the matter is,a lot of people died in a mass shooting, cause of one crazy man who had business having access to guns in the first place.

Anyways, banning guns won't really fix shit, just look at Prohibition. Even if all legal pathways to obtain guns were gone, the illegal black market selling all the illegal shit will become even more profitable than it already is. That being said, however, it's laughable how easily someone can get a gun, at least in certain states.
Check out this video here.

Ignoring the obviously liberal biased news report, you can see just how it retardedly easy it is to get a gun. Guns are cool and all, but come on. Really? Need some actual middle ground to be found.
Edit @ SunnyORAS You can't escape this L LOL that weak edit won't protect you

 

[eden]

I never said to ban guns but a person with documented issues, shouldn't have access to legally buying a gun. As simple as that. Do you think a crazy person would be able to effectively gauge whether a weapon is effective in a situation or not? Also I've always wondered why the citizenry for "self-protection" needs assault rifles. one they'll knock you on your back from recoil if you're not trained, two they're horrible at close quarters for similar reasons, three at that point its less about protection and more about machismo. Which is what most of gun culture at this point is. Banning guns would never work and I don't think anyone would ever suggest that, but the current situation is baffling. You can't simply ignore facts that clear as day show that stronger/stricter gun laws lead to less gun violence period. A good deal of crimes committed are solely because of ease to access of weapon to be frank.

EDIT: pls man, it was obvious I meant has no business lol.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

tbh I was just voicing my shitty opinion, wasn't even replying directly to you but good shit

 

[eden]

Also I just want to say that maybe if more people got out of the Islamophobia/make america great again/guns are amazing/gays should die because they're unnatural circle jerk, maybe we as a nation could actually move forward instead of being stuck in this imaginary desolate wasteland reminiscent of western where nothing but the barrel of a gun, saves us from certain death from our enemies(who range from the mexicans, to the muslims, hell to any immigrants/people of foreign origin honestly). I don't mean to derail but racism is also a very real issue because even after this tragedy we we looking less at reasons, giving less value/respect to the dead than we paid attention to "oh this guy is a muslim, lets chalk it up to muslim terrorism and call it a day". Its so easy to look on the outside for threats, but its very difficult to man up and take a good long look at the problems with the country. Gays being discriminated against, guns being everywhere, our education system being completely stupid and advocating the teaching of things like "creationism" to pander to the lowest common denominator of conservative religious people and more. Liberal/republican isn't the issue but just cultural problems in general, which are much more deep seated, and harder to change.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

Yeah, the media and people in general focus too much on religion/race/sexual orientation/whatever when all that matters really is that innocent people were murdered for no reason, gay or not. The LGBT factor does provide a motive, but it doesn't really matter in the end as much as innocent lives being taken, especially in such a horrific manner. Can't really ignore the Muslim terrorism aspect because that shit is actually happening, but the lives lost should be the main focus imo. Also that dude that held that door is a complete retard, panicking or not.

 

[eden]

agreed, I can't believe that someone would be so stupid, as to close the door on people who are clearly fleeing, in fear of their lives. The muslim terror thing is definitely an aspect, but he had claimed links to the boston bombing before, so apparantly that link was "investigated". Apparently the person selling the gun didn't get the memo, and sold a gun either to a suspected terrorist/ or a terrorism sympathizer both of which are terrible; muslim terrorism is definitely an issue especially with ISIS boldly making statements and committing terrorist acts and the such. But the system obviously has its failings if even a terrorist sympathizer, who also happened to be a wife beater got not a self-protection device like a pistol/revolver, but an assault weapon. The lives lost should be the bigger issue, and just because the gay community has gone through/is going through tough stuff like discrimination and homophobia in a lot of aspects of life, doesn't mean that they should.

 

[apt-get]

I never said to ban guns but a person with documented issues, shouldn't have access to legally buying a gun. As simple as that. Do you think a crazy person would be able to effectively gauge whether a weapon is effective in a situation or not? Also I've always wondered why the citizenry for "self-protection" needs assault rifles. one they'll knock you on your back from recoil if you're not trained, two they're horrible at close quarters for similar reasons, three at that point its less about protection and more about machismo. Which is what most of gun culture at this point is. Banning guns would never work and I don't think anyone would ever suggest that, but the current situation is baffling. You can't simply ignore facts that clear as day show that stronger/stricter gun laws lead to less gun violence period. A good deal of crimes committed are solely because of ease to access of weapon to be frank.

EDIT: pls man, it was obvious I meant has no business lol.

Once again, please don't call them assault rifles. They're not automatic weapons. The only relation between assault rifles and semi-automatic ones being sold freely sold in the market is the aesthetics.

 

[eden]

I might be wrong on the type/specs of the gun but the point stands.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

This is not a Hickok45 video on YouTube, all that matters is that it's a gun (adding wielded by a killer so I'm not called a pussy liberal) that killed people. Accuracy about the type of gun is important for the news and Congress and shit, but it doesn't really matter in this thread THAT much tbh. It's more about the broad issues here than the tiny details. AR-15 or AK-47, it still racked up an unfortunately high bodycount.

 

[apt-get]

This is not a Hickok45 video on YouTube, all that matters is that it's a gun (adding wielded by a killer so I'm not called a pussy liberal) that killed people. Accuracy about the type of gun is important for the news and Congress and shit, but it doesn't really matter in this thread THAT much tbh. It's more about the broad issues here than the tiny details. AR-15 or AK-47, it still racked up an unfortunately high bodycount.

It does matter, because when the term "assault rifle" is used, it gives the image of automatic machine guns being sold to civilians. It is important to emphasize that these are NOT military weapons, and that they are only identical in looks.

It definitely can influence the debate.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

I can see what you mean with the term "assault rifles", weapons capable of full auto mode, being thrown out incorrectly and irresponsibility, but at the end of the day, any functional gun wielded by a maniac is dangerous af, no matter what it is specifically (semi-automatic gun, assault rifle, assault weapon, w/e), and not everyone (including me) knows everything about gun/gun terms and the like. According to a bit of research I did (might be incorrect, not exactly a gun expert but w/e), a civilian can legally get their hands on an assault rifle anyways, one that was registered between 1934 and 1986, which also includes M16s and AKs, which are capable of full auto fire. Besides, again, a civilian can just go to the black market if they want a brand new M4A1 assault rifle. These aren't exactly easy to get at regular, legal gun stores but still, it's possible to get one if you REALLY to get it. If I fucked up anything in this, I'm sleepy af and I'll fix it later after I sleep.

 

[eden]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sacrame...reaching/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=25569580

Incidentally its things like this that get me upset. You have something like this happening, then after that you immediately have bigoted pastor expressing his "freedom of religious expression, and speech" by preaching for hatred and violence. he actually said that whatever happened was "justified" because the people who died did not life their live according to rules laid down by a 3000 year old book. Religion isn't supposed to encourage this sort of hate, but unfortunately i don't think any action will ever be take against this man. This is slightly off topic, but I just want to show the kind of hatred that is coming after the fact, people died and someone is actually speaking out in support of this. Terrible.

 

[Kurona]

I honestly don't think it's off-topic when it's about how some entitled bastards respond to such a terrible event.
It shouldn't matter if they were something or doing something you hated. It shouldn't matter if they were doing what was a sin in your eyes. The fact is people were murdered and all some people can fucking do is say they deserved it.

Also before anyone says to me; I absolutely do think it matters that the subjects of this shooting were a large group of LGBT members. Being an LGBT member myself I can't even think about that not mattering. I'm just really pissed off right now and couldn't think of some good wording in response to some fucking cunts think they can just say people deserved to die, whether you support lgbt or hate it

 

[Poison Heart]

I'm just really pissed off right now and couldn't think of some good wording in response to some fucking cunts think they can just say people deserved to die, whether you support lgbt or hate it

I have to agree. There is almost no excuse to take a life in cold blood, and simply being gay is not an exception to this rule.

It's as Steven Weinberg said. "With or without religion, good people will do good deeds and evil people will do evil deeds. But to get a good person to do an evil deed, you need religion."

 

[Sam I Yam]

ITT: People who have never shot a gun

 

[eden]

ITT: People who have nothing constructive to say; and pretend that knowledge of guns is necessary to discuss a shooting.

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

Media turning the main focus from gun laws into Muslim business / LGBTQ rights. How convenient.
As Rugi have said, pretty much everywhere outside the USA were criticizing the gun laws, rather than talking about LGBTQ stuff.

"Guns are to protect us" is a very Republican thing. It doesn't really protect you. It makes your society more dangerous because people can kill people efficiently.

"If we don't have guns, how do we protect ourselves from the government?"
Why do you need to protect yourself from the government? Why would your government kill you randomly?
Seriously, if your government is against you, there would be hydropumps or tanks everywhere, so your guns don't really do a thing anyway.

What country are you from? Are you familiar with the term "revolution?"

 

[eden]

If revolution is your standard state of living...than it's not a revolution is it? It's just everyday life then. And if your everyday life requires you to rebel against a government which give you your liberties, and doesn't randomly kill people than what can I say? You must be living in a different america than me.

 

[citro]

"If we don't have guns, how do we protect ourselves from the government?"
Why do you need to protect yourself from the government? Why would your government kill you randomly?
Seriously, if your government is against you, there would be hydropumps or tanks everywhere, so your guns don't really do a thing anyway.

exactly. If the american government actually wanted to...it has access to the american army. Basically the army that laughs at all others...so a bunch of untrained joe schmoes vs that, is p much a no brainer. You don't need protection from your own government,because its moot either way, if they actually wanted to harm you...you'd already be dead lol. And LGBT rights have been a bone of contention for far long, conservative religious groups let their views impact our governance(hence why gay marriage was only legalized recently) and our education(hence why creationism is a thing taught in the US); the matter is political to an extent but the fact of the matter is,a lot of people died in a mass shooting, cause of one crazy man who had no business having access to guns in the first place.

Some of the points you're making are wrong. The state does kill its own citizens:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton

and yeah the Viet Cong was very underequipped and under-trained compared to the US army but they were successful. same to an extent with the Naxalites in India. (edit: not saying the Naxalites are fighting the US)