Curse and Belly Drum

[ZhengTann]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused. But not by me. Yet. ​

Please refer to Feedback thread, page 43 and 44.

If the user is a Ghost-type, this move costs 50% of their maximum HP and 27 Energy instead of merely 6 Energy. They pay this price in order to cast a wicked and crippling affliction on the opponent. Pokemon afflicted with Ghost Curse take five (5) damage at the end of each action, and Chill and Rest only restore half as much energy or HP as normal. Such Pokemon also take an extra two (2) damage per action and lose one (1) more energy per action when affected by Nightmare. This version of Curse will fail if the user is at or below half of its maximum HP.

The user pounds its stomach with fury, whipping itself into an intense frenzy. In exchange for 1/2 of its maximum HP, the Pokemon receives a permanent rise to its maximum attack stage (+6) for the duration of the battle, even if it leaves play. The heightened aggressive state makes the Pokemon immune to Sleep and Confusion, and prevents the user from using non-damaging moves, for the next six (6) actions. Belly Drum will fail if the user is at or below half of its maximum HP.

This is a buff culture thread at heart. So if you want to justify any buffs, I would advise you to post calculations and numbers and your assumptions behind them. If you want to "make these moves more viable", prove that your proposed changes do not overpower them instead. Also, please don't make circular arguments that beg questions like "What if your opponent has better matchup control?" or "What if you're more/less skilled than your opponent?" Make your assumptions in a vacuum if you will. Lastly, if you're uncomfortable with the buff culture and wish to stop it, feel free to critique the proponents' calcs. We may or may not end up buffing changing these two moves by this discussion.

Maybe if we do this exercise alright, we can set up a sort-of SOP to handle similar buff culture discussions. This is Algebra-Styled Battling, after all :P

Fire away! ^_^

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

At a fundamental level I disagree that this is buff culture. Buff culture was things like boosting the effects of Water Stone so that Cloyster can get a boost because Ludicolo gets one. I see this more as a "Let's make a crappy move usable" culture.

I'll repost my suggestion itt.


Belly Drum we have to be careful with just because it's such a powerful boost. At 12 additional DPR you need two attacks to justify the use of the move (24 damage total benefit value of the move at that point) in comparison to a standard attack and anything after that point is extra value so the cost has to be weighted around that.

I propose Drum cost 35% max HP
- 28 HP at 80
- 31.5 at 90
- 35 at 100
- 38.5 at 110
- add 3.5 per ten
- 50.75 at 145

Seems to hit a nice break point between opportunity cost and increased damage output without overcorrecting to make Drum too good.



wrt Curse make it cost 35/25 flat? The EN cost was always the bigger penalty than the HP considering to take full advantage you need to heal yourself of that HP. It's still a strong effect for a more drawn out battle so I'm cautious of nerfing the HP penalty too much.

 

[Dogfish44]

At 35 HP I would not be comfortable using Belly Drum unless I knew I was going to get 5 attacks in (+60 Damage, overall benefit of +25 net HP difference for using the move). At 25 HP, I would be considering 4 attacks (48, +23). It's worth remembering the presence of weaker boosting moves - A Swords Dance is going to be getting +16 damage (And hence +16 net HP change) if it's used on the final action of a round and is followed by all physical hits, potentially doing up to 26 damage (Although only 20 in the 5 action timeframe).

Compare Power Bracer Sword's Dance as well, which is a +5 which costs 0 HP, and your item slot (Although given the current meta has Knock Off be a huge upgrade to a mon, not hugely relevant). Given you're paying HP and EN to use a strategy that can be abused or countered, I'm inclined to aim for a lower HP % - 25, in this case.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Considering a significant number of mons can heal 25 HP in a single action (or near enough, Moonlight, Synthesis, Recover, Pain Split etc) and the impact of the +12 per damage on spread moves in Doubles (Belly Drum ~ Rock Slide ~ Rock Slide means that Drum is adding 48 damage in that round alone) I'm inclined to say 25 HP is too low.

 

[Frosty]

I did some math and assuming you are being hit at 16hp by your opponent, Belly Drum breaks even (aka manages to generate enough extra damage to overcome the action spent on belly drum, the hp cost and 16hp) at 30. So I suggest 30%.

25% is too little for infinite +6atk. Or at least too big of a step. We are talking about the biggest risk-reward move in the game, so we should be more conservative, in order to not break anything.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I did some math and assuming you are being hit at 16hp by your opponent, Belly Drum breaks even (aka manages to generate enough extra damage to overcome the action spent on belly drum, the hp cost and 16hp) at 30. So I suggest 30%.

25% is too little for infinite +6atk. Or at least too big of a step. We are talking about the biggest risk-reward move in the game, so we should be more conservative, in order to not break anything.

How many actions are required to break even? If it's 5+ then I think that's probably a fair valuation. If it's 4 or less I think we should go with a more punitive EN cost to account for multiple battles as 4 or less action translates into 2 actions of breakeven in doubles.

 

[Frosty]

how many actions?

good question, I think around 5. At 4 it pays the cost (30), the opportunity cost (16) and some extra tidbit (2), so in some sense it breaks even (it is slightly better than regular Swords Dance in the net result, 18 vs 14). In 5 it is really worth it (gets a net result equal to tail glow, 30). If you belly drum at full health you will get 5 actions of pummeling + extra fat. If you do it after SR you get 4 actions + extra fat.

 

[ZhengTann]

I like Texas and Frosty's assumptions, but something seems to be neglected - the Drummer's own damage output. Naturally, if the Drummer is able to consistently outdamage the opponent, I see no real reason to Drum, save to minimize the rounds spend ordering first. So extending Frosty's assumptions:

- Assuming Drummer is outputting 14 DPA w/o any boosts (2 less than opponent's 16 DPA).
- Assuming 120 HP

With Belly Drum

A1: 52 damage taken vs 0 damage dealt
A2: 68 damage taken vs 25 damage dealt
A3: 84 damage taken vs 50 damage dealt
A4: 100 damage taken vs 75 damage dealt
A5: 116 damage taken (KO) vs 100 damage dealt

Without Belly Drum

Skip to A7: 112 damage taken vs 98 damage dealt

So in those lines of reasoning, we're only extending Belly Drum's niche from Raid-only, to being a semi-viable strategy on Snorlax, Hariyama, and maybe Darmanitan in the current gen. While it's a small enough step in the right enough direction, I can't help but think that maybe we need someone with a more.... radical idea to rock some boats. (If the cost is 25%, the same assumptions would lead to 110 damage taken vs 100 damage dealt at A5 with Belly Drum).

As to Ghost Curse, I like giving it a 30 HP cost, as per suggested before IIRC. Basing off the fact that most mons don't survive past 2 rounds in Singles, victims of Ghost Curse that do sustain longer than that are going to find the Ghost Curse's effect starting to pay-off the cost. I don't really mind whether or not we lower the EN cost, as EN has always been the less important resource outside of long RPs anyway.

 

[Birkal]

To me, the issue is that buffing stats (e.g. Swords Dance / Agility / Amnesia) is severely weakened in ASB. We see new users going for the setup on A1 all the time, yet seasoned players know that this almost never is advantageous. The moves discussed in the OP here would be much better off if we finally fixed these moves to have the actual svelte they do ingame. At least include them before adding in SE modifier, if not buff them in their current order of operation.

Sorry if this is off topic. Just my opinion.

 

[deadfox081]

I would have to throw my support behind 30% HP Belly Drum and 30 HP Curse as suggested by others here. Heck I'd potentially be cool with a flat 30 HP Belly Drum too just for simplicity.

I definitely think Ghost Curse should have its energy cost reduced too though. I'd put it at about 10 EN myself. Likewise I think it is definitely worth discussion as to whether the self taunt effect of Belly Drum should remain or not.

In response to Birkal's comment I think that is unfortunately a topic not fit to be discussed in this thread. We have revamped stat boosters in various ways over various years including changing decay and the amount of damage they add. Whether they are perfect or not they certainly see some use in the current meta. Additionally we are talking about a +6 boost here, which I would struggle to support an argument stating that it is underpowered. See for example: the amount of times Camerupt's have an "IF Anger Point THEN Physical move" sub

 

[ZhengTann]

Agreeing with Deadfox, with some personal take on the bigger picture - the fact is, stat boosters in-ASB give much lower immediate returns compared to in-catridge, which is why these moves see much less use here. If we buff stat boosters to give the same immediate returns as an attack, that would mean somewhere around +5 or more per stage boost, which in turn simply makes stat boosters the go-to setup move on A1 of every match-up. So either we make changes that does not affect the metagame at all, or we flip the meta upside down. Neither of which seems appealing, so I personally think the status quo is kind of okay - we're not the same game as the catridges, so we don't necessarily have to have the same competitive metagame.

I disagree with flat HP cost on Belly Drum though, because it favours fatmons more, and fatmons are already at an advantage compared to thinmons IMO (Roost and co.'s EN cost is barely an offset). That said, almost 2 weeks have passed. If nobody else objects, slate will be as follows:

Expanding Belly Drum slate a little:

How much HP should Belly Drum cost, in addition to the 30 EN cost?
a) 30 flat
b) 35 flat
c) 30% maximum
d) 35% maximum
e) No change (50% maximum)

Ghost Curse slate will be a two-part:

How much HP should Ghost Curse cost?
a) 30 flat
e) No change (50% maximum)

How much EN should Ghost Curse cost?
a) 10
e) No change (27)

The above is subject to change wrought by discussion, as is self-Taunt on Belly Drum (thus far I see no well-reasoned objection yet, so I'm in favour of keeping the flavour relic). 36-hour window before the move to Voting.

EDIT: We're overdue :/