Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

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Hmm... this actually doesn't sound too unrealistic. As far as I can remember, Rayquaza will be forced onto your team in the Delta Episode, giving you no choice but to swap out a team member.

Meanwhile, in a completely different game: The third and latest iteration of the Dark Souls series (fittingly called Dark Souls III) features a boss with a titanic amount of health and defense. Bringing him down is a lengthy test of endurance and skill, since being a Dark Souls boss, he can take you out in a few hits. That is, unless you pick up a special sword lying in his boss room. The unconventional sword nullifies the boss' defense and deals an enormous amount of damage, though it requires some... unconventional use.

This boss battle got some flak for being a scripted battle in an otherwise very flexible game series, but for many it worked well nonetheless. It is far from the only scripted battle in gaming history, but a good and recent example.

It could be that Game Freak wants to try out something similar. A climactic battle where the only way forward is the attack that cancels the opponent's Ability. You catch the cover legendary, it is forced onto your team, maybe even positioned in the first slot. The UB attacks, and none of your moves seem to affect it. But your trusty friend stands on the sideline shouting "Nothing seems to bite! Perhaps Solgaleo's Sunsteel Strike will harm it!" in bold and blue text. And then special cutscenes play and everything is epic, if not for the fact that the only way forward is to follow the script.

But, like the battle in Dark Souls III, other strategies can yield a win too. If you play patiently, conserve your items and use clever strategies, it is possible to hack the boss to death without ever picking up the special sword. The obvious path is pointed out clearly, but if you look for alternatives, they are there. Having Mold Breaker, or using Substitute cleverly, PP stalling until Struggle or other strategies might win too, creating an extra option for the savvy player even though the opponent might have titanic HP and Defense, no weaknesses, and an ability even Shedinja would envy.
Delta Episode wasn't the first time Gamefreak dabbled in scripted fights. The first was clearly Black/White.

Based on how Zekrom/Reshiram are almost forced into your party in the first slot it's pretty clear Gamefreak wanted a battle of legends at N's throne room. And the battle is very much in your favor for doing it this way, N's dragon is two levels higher which is to his disadvantage since if he chooses Fusion Flare/Bolt he'll go first due to higher speed stat. This allows your own Fusion Flare/Bolt to power up and easily kill his dragon in a few rounds.

But like the aforemention Dark Souls, you can totally ignore the legendaries and fight it out your way with your trusted team of 6. They even go the extra mile of giving an even harder boss in Ghetsis right after N that seems set up to punish you if you rely too much on your legendary dragon (Cofagrigus will likely hit it with mummy and Toxic, and if you still try to muscle it out then Hydreigon will kill it outright).

So if that's what Gamefreak thinks a scripted boss fight is, then I really wouldn't mind if they returned in Sun/Moon. And if they aren't over used and properly built up, scripted fights can be really great for interactive storytelling. Mother 3's final boss is completely on rails and still makes my eyes water just having to watch.
 
So if that's what Gamefreak thinks a scripted boss fight is, then I really wouldn't mind if they returned in Sun/Moon. And if they aren't over used and properly built up, scripted fights can be really great for interactive storytelling. Mother 3's final boss is completely on rails and still makes my eyes water just having to watch.
To be fair, Mother 3 had a ton of tear inducing moments, and the final boss was the cherry on top of the Sadness Sundae. But so far Gamefreak's usage of boss-type fights, not counting gym leaders, has been pretty good, so I don't see it stopping in Sun/Moon.
 
Pokémon Colosseum and XD had actual scripted fights, which were fixed by having trainers other than you do battle. The latter also had the only trainer (Team Snagem's Wakin) who would use Pokémon to attack people directly (though in his case, he just uses Gloom's Sleep Powder to deal with them). Ghetsis tried in B2/W2, but it failed.

I don't really see a fight against a single opponent to be anything but a difficulty drop given how many ways you could cheese the fight offensively (OHKO moves, Perish Song, Destiny Bond, Endeavor, Toxic, Pain Split...) or defensively (Sturdy, Wonder Guard, Substitute, Protect, Fake Out...) or disruptively (Encore, Disable, Torment, Taunt...) that you couldn't possibly keep up with those options in a single opponent.
 
I don't really see a fight against a single opponent to be anything but a difficulty drop given how many ways you could cheese the fight offensively (OHKO moves, Perish Song, Destiny Bond, Endeavor, Toxic, Pain Split...) or defensively (Sturdy, Wonder Guard, Substitute, Protect, Fake Out...) or disruptively (Encore, Disable, Torment, Taunt...) that you couldn't possibly keep up with those options in a single opponent.

If UBs aren't actual Pokémons as it seems, they could be immune to a lot of Pokémons "rules". They can be immune to virtually anything GF want them to be, 'cause they're not supposed to be somewhat balanced. They could also be stupidly weak to the Legendaries for no apparent reason. Example? They could easily have an ability that prevents non-legend mons to attack them, 'cause they're "too frightened". Against defensive abilities, they could have a type external to the main types, that passes through things like Wonder Guard (like Ghost type can flee from Shadow Tag). They could have infinite PP. If they want you to use a specific Pokémon to fight them (Solgaleo, Lunala, Tapu Koko or Zygarde), they'll easily make it that way (they did it sometimes even with regular Legendaries, it would be even easier with these UBs).
 
It's really interesting what the official site has to ay about the ultra beasts

"The Ultra Beast known as UB-02 Absorption appears in Pokémon Sun, and the extent of its strength is unknown. Its entire body is covered with bulging, powerful muscles. The full force of a punch powered by these muscles would be off the charts! Its distinctively long mouth is said to be harder than diamonds. Could the Ultra Beast also use it to attack?

The Ultra Beast with the codename UB-02 Beauty appears in Pokémon Moon. What kind of power does it possess? Its narrow, graceful legs allow it to accelerate with such explosive speed that people claim it can dodge lightning! It is said that any Pokémon that sees UB-02 Beauty, regardless of its own gender, will become infatuated with it and lose the will to battle. The exact reason for this reaction—whether it's an unidentified pheromone exuded by UB-02 Beauty or a hypnotic effect induced by its appearance—has not been determined."

So UB-02 Beauty can infantute any pokemon regardless of its gender??? that battle will be sooo annoying and if it happens to be that it can be catchable and playable as a pokemon it will be broken as hell
And Absorption could have Pure Power and an absurd Attack stat so it could also be broken as hell
 
And Absorption could have Pure Power and an absurd Attack stat so it could also be broken as hell

mawile-mega.gif


Anyways... we'll have to wait, as literally anything could happen with those things.
 
The UBs could all be ???-type. Curse would stay Ghost, but they might make the type SE against all other types of pokemon and resist all other types of moves as well. It seems like the perfect time to bring it back and make it canon.

Like Shadow Pokemon in Pokemon XD, where every shadow move was super effective against non-shadow pokemon, but this time around the UB wouldnt have a normal pokemon weakness, like not only having moves that are super effective against every pokemon, they would also resist every type or something on the lines
 
If it turns out that the UBs aren't considered pokemon, then I don't think they'll have stats, abilities, and typings, as well as not utilizing traditional moves. Their situation will likely mirror the Bittercold from Gates to Infinity. I can see you being in a battle with them and it turns out they either resist or take no damage from any of your pokemon's moves.
 
I missed out on Gates to infinity, but I know Dark Matter changed its typing to 2 random types during the battle. Maybe there is a UB with a sort of auto conversion ability?
 
Okay, so this is going to sound absolutely insane, but with some supplemental evidence that's recently developed, I think this is a theory worthy of discussion. Please note that I'm not intentionally trying to brew up a theory I don't believe in for the sake of discussion, I'm trying to back up a recent leak with supplemental evidence we've seen.

Theory: Solgaleo & Lunaala are Pokemon from another dimension and share a common pre-evolution.

Yes, that sounds insane, but hear me out. I'm extremely skeptical of this myself, but it has enough going for it at the moment that I think it's worthy of some discussion or at least keeping an eye peeled for evidence that can help confirm / deny it. Here's all the evidence I can gather to support this theory:

The Foundation of the Theory: The Ultra Beasts Leak

On August 11th, a /vp/ user made the following comment in a small thread that received very little attention:

ILzzfho.png


If you would like to verify that this post actually exists, you can view the post yourself on one of 4chan's 3rd party archives:
nyafuu.org link - archive.is back up
archived.moe link - archive.is back up

Obviously leaks from /vp/ are dime a dozen and almost always just some 16 year old trying to fish for replies. What makes this different is the date. This poster described an encounter with a "boss level alien Pokemon" almost a month before ultra beasts are revealed. The "Lillie's Mother" portion is a little more up in the air considering no one's specifically been called Lillie's mother, but the description of what they do syncs up fairly well with Wicke or even Lusamine if she weren't so young.

Predicting something as far-fetched as Ultra Beasts as well as motivations that sync up reasonably with the Aether Foundation's aspirations is the major foundation for this theory. Now, I'll try and root it in some existing content of Sun and Moon we've already been shown.

Supplemental Evidence:

1) Solgaleo and Lunaala in a Wormhole At the end of the recent trailer for Sun & Moon, Solgaleo and Lunaala jump through a wormhole similar to the one UB-01 emerged from in our September 6th trailer at 2:04. This provides a bit of evidence supporting the "coming through a wormhole" bit of the /vp/ post.


2) Solgaleo and Lunaala's similarities.

Solgaleo and Lunaala possess a few aethetic similarities that might suggest a pre-evolution.

NTRxCUD.png


Notable similarities (In order of strongest to weakest evidence of a common pre evo):

A) The "Dome Head" - Solgaleo and Lunaala have remarkably similar head designs. The both look sort of like a 20 questions toy. and both feature an ability to "light up" and make their eyes more intense.

B) Similar Color Similarities - Complementing the dome head are two reasonably comparable color schemes: White accented with slightly different colors of yellow and a secondary color unique to that Pokemon, black and red for Solgaleo, blue and purple for Lunaala. The white and yellow in common

C) Typing - Probably the weakest and stretchiest bit of supplemental evidence I can find is their typing. Solgaleo is Psychic / Steel. Lunaala is Psychic / Ghost. They share the same primary type. Every single branched evolution pathway (bar Eevee) keep the same primary typing, so the two at least fit the mold for this to happen.

Side note: Wasn't really sure where else to put this, but even with a common pre evolution, Solgaleo and Lunaala could maintain version exclusivity with the newly unveiled version exclusive evolution mechanic.

Evidence against this theory:
I wanted to quickly address some of the most immediate skepticism for this theory. This theory doesn't have enough evidence to silence these criticisms at all, but it can at least provide simple answers.

1) This is all extremely unlikely and combats 16 years of the trends cover legendaries have worked into: It really is, but I think there's enough evidence as presented above at the moment to suggest this as a theory and to keep an eye peeled for additional information in the coming trailers. Sun and Moon are breaking the mold for a lot of aspects of Pokemon but are they really going to go that far and make the first legendary Pokemon that evolve? I doubt it, but there's just a bit that suggests otherwise.

2) Solgaleo and Lunaala are featured in a cut scene in the first trailer for the game: This is one of the biggest obstacles for the whole theory and the answers of how there'll be a cinematic encounter with Solgaleo or Lunaala while also having a pre evolution are pretty thin. Maybe the player will obtain the pre evolution earlier than that encounter and the area that encounter takes place is the trigger to make their pre evo evolve?

3) Getting one thing in a leak right does not mean the rest of the leak is correct: This is super true. The Gematsu leaks for Smash 4 had a lot of truth to them, but they were only partially accurate towards the end. This person could have very well been the video editor (or a friend of theirs) for our September 6th trailor and might mave mistaken Type: Null or Jangmo-o as a pre evo for some reason, perhaps not knowing the slightest thing about Pokemon when they worked on it. However, the evidence in the two's design similarities and the wormhole thing from the recent japanese trailor want me to give the idea a little more credit.

So yeah, that's everything! Really crazy stuff, but I think it has just the slightest grip to hold onto to be something to look out for.

TL;DR: Based off of a leak, trailer footage, and various design similarities, Solgaleo and Lunala might have a common pre evo.
 
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Okay, so this is going to sound absolutely insane, but with some supplemental evidence that's recently developed, I think this is a theory worthy of discussion. Please note that I'm not intentionally trying to brew up a theory I don't believe in for the sake of discussion, I'm trying to back up a recent leak with supplemental evidence we've seen.

Theory: Solgaleo & Lunaala are Pokemon from another dimension and share a common pre-evolution.

Yes, that sounds insane, but hear me out. I'm extremely skeptical of this myself, but it has enough going for it at the moment that I think it's worthy of some discussion or at least keeping an eye peeled for evidence that can help confirm / deny it. Here's all the evidence I can gather to support this theory:

The Foundation of the Theory: The Ultra Beasts Leak

On August 11th, a /vp/ user made the following comment in a small thread that received very little attention:

ILzzfho.png


If you would like to verify that this post actually exists, you can view the post yourself on one of 4chan's 3rd party archives:
nyafuu.org link - archive.is back up
archived.moe link - archive.is back up

Obviously leaks from /vp/ are dime a dozen and almost always just some 16 year old trying to fish for replies. What makes this different is the date. This poster described an encounter with a "boss level alien Pokemon" almost a month before ultra beasts are revealed. The "Lillie's Mother" portion is a little more up in the air considering no one's specifically been called Lillie's mother, but the description of what they do syncs up fairly well with Wicke or even Lusamine if she weren't so young.

Predicting something as far-fetched as Ultra Beasts as well as motivations that sync up reasonably with the Aether Foundation's aspirations is the major foundation for this theory. Now, I'll try and root it in some existing content of Sun and Moon we've already been shown.

Supplemental Evidence:

1) Solgaleo and Lunaala in a Wormhole At the end of the recent trailer for Sun & Moon, Solgaleo and Lunaala jump through a wormhole similar to the one UB-01 emerged from in our September 6th trailer at 2:04. This provides a bit of evidence supporting the "coming through a wormhole" bit of the /vp/ post.


2) Solgaleo and Lunaala's similarities.

Solgaleo and Lunaala possess a few aethetic similarities that might suggest a pre-evolution.

NTRxCUD.png


Notable similarities (In order of strongest to weakest evidence of a common pre evo):

A) The "Dome Head" - Solgaleo and Lunaala have remarkably similar head designs. The both look sort of like a 20 questions toy. and both feature an ability to "light up" and make their eyes more intense.

B) Similar Color Similarities - Complementing the dome head are two reasonably comparable color schemes: White accented with slightly different colors of yellow and a secondary color unique to that Pokemon, black and red for Solgaleo, blue and purple for Lunaala. The white and yellow in common

C) Typing - Probably the weakest and stretchiest bit of supplemental evidence I can find is their typing. Solgaleo is Psychic / Steel. Lunaala is Psychic / Ghost. They share the same primary type. Every single branched evolution pathway (bar Eevee) keep the same primary typing, so the two at least fit the mold for this to happen.

Side note: Wasn't really sure where else to put this, but even with a common pre evolution, Solgaleo and Lunaala could maintain version exclusivity with the newly unveiled version exclusive evolution mechanic.

Evidence against this theory:
I wanted to quickly address some of the most immediate skepticism for this theory. This theory doesn't have enough evidence to silence these criticisms at all, but it can at least provide simple answers.

1) This is all extremely unlikely and combats 16 years of the trends cover legendaries have worked into: It really is, but I think there's enough evidence as presented above at the moment to suggest this as a theory and to keep an eye peeled for additional information in the coming trailers. Sun and Moon are breaking the mold for a lot of aspects of Pokemon but are they really going to go that far and make the first legendary Pokemon that evolve? I doubt it, but there's just a bit that suggests otherwise.

2) Solgaleo and Lunaala are featured in a cut scene in the first trailer for the game: This is one of the biggest obstacles for the whole theory and the answers of how there'll be a cinematic encounter with Solgaleo or Lunaala while also having a pre evolution are pretty thin. Maybe the player will obtain the pre evolution earlier than that encounter and the area that encounter takes place is the trigger to make their pre evo evolve?

3) Getting one thing in a leak right does not mean the rest of the leak is correct: This is super true. The Gematsu leaks for Smash 4 had a lot of truth to them, but they were only partially accurate towards the end. This person could have very well been the video editor (or a friend of theirs) for our September 6th trailor and might mave mistaken Type: Null or Jangmo-o as a pre evo for some reason, perhaps not knowing the slightest thing about Pokemon when they worked on it. However, the evidence in the two's design similarities and the wormhole thing from the recent japanese trailor want me to give the idea a little more credit.

So yeah, that's everything! Really crazy stuff, but I think it has just the slightest grip to hold onto to be something to look out for.

TL;DR: Based off of a leak, trailer footage, and various design similarities, Solgaleo and Lunala might have a common pre evo.

You're right! This does sound insane! Far to insane to be true!

Legendaries having pre evolutions. Lol.
 
You're right! This does sound insane! Far to insane to be true!

Legendaries having pre evolutions. Lol.
Phione would be proud.

But seriously, this is a headcanon only comparable to fake mega evolution of umbreon that add wings to it and orbs everywhere.

Anyone feels there might be water strider elements to ABSorption? The 3 skinny legs might hint it with bugs walking on water and 3 being the most efficient weight distribution support structure.
 
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Uh... I really think you guys should've hidden everything in spoiler tags. As farfetched as that 'leak' might or might not seem to be, some people would rather not find out about it. ( I for one didn't know about it and honestly I wish it isn't true because otherwise you just spoiled the hell out of this game for me as I'm trying to avoid anything major that GF itself hasn't announced:/ )
 
Uh... I really think you guys should've hidden everything in spoiler tags. As farfetched as that 'leak' might or might not seem to be, some people would rather not find out about it. ( I for one didn't know about it and honestly I wish it isn't true because otherwise you just spoiled the hell out of this game for me as I'm trying to avoid anything major that GF itself hasn't announced:/ )
Right, I'm sorry about that. Admittedly, the "leak" probably shouldn't even been posted, unless TheMantyke got permission from a mod to do so. I keep forgetting that leaks aren't allowed to be discussed. :/

I'll just put my thing under a spoiler tag for now, and if the mods want to delete the post, that's fine.

Edit: Actually nevermind, I'm just gonna delete the post.
 
Right, I'm sorry about that. Admittedly, the "leak" probably shouldn't even been posted, unless TheMantyke got permission from a mod to do so. I keep forgetting that leaks aren't allowed to be discussed. :/

I'll just put my thing under a spoiler tag for now, and if the mods want to delete the post, that's fine.

Edit: Actually nevermind, I'm just gonna delete the post.
Can you send me a PM?
 
TheMantyke:
First, spoiler tags.
A) The "Dome Head" - Solgaleo and Lunaala have remarkably similar head designs. The both look sort of like a 20 questions toy. and both feature an ability to "light up" and make their eyes more intense.

Many of the paired Legendaries share design themes. Groudon & Kyogre have those line pattern; Dialga & Palkia have complicated headpieces and an encased jewel somewhere on their body; Reshiram & Zekrom have turbine tails and wispy head pieces; and Xerneas & Yveltal have organic body patterns (Xerneas' horns look like chromosomes and Yveltal's body pattern look like veins). Also I think all Legendaries can make their eye glows, it's a power thing.

B) Similar Color Similarities - Complementing the dome head are two reasonably comparable color schemes: White accented with slightly different colors of yellow and a secondary color unique to that Pokemon, black and red for Solgaleo, blue and purple for Lunaala. The white and yellow in common

Eh, I'd call this one a stretch. Yeah they have a lot of white and yellow on them but Solgaleo highlights are in orange while Lunala is navy blue. I'd more say this is just another design theme they have in common, not really its own clue.

Can't say whether you're right or wrong, but I don't see the point giving them a prevo unless you were going to be given a choice of what you want to evolve it into. Also Solgaleo is a lion and Lunala is a bat, unless there's a secondary theme I'm not seeing (like Remoraid evolving to Octillery makes sense if you look at it as a gun evolving into a cannon) I don't see what a common prevo for them would look like an why such a drastic design basis between the two. I'd just say its a rumor that got lucky.
 
Huh, so the leak isn't getting deleted. All right, I'm just gonna repost what I wrote earlier.

I'll try to humor this theory for a bit.

The wormhole:
They could be from another dimension. Alternatively, they could just have the ability to travel through dimensions.

Similarities:
TheMantyke already mentioned a few, and there are a bit more. Similar mouth shapes, similar eyes (only thing different really is the color), and yellow accents around their heads. But aside from all that, they look like two completely different pokemon. Also, the similarity in typing could just be the fact that the psychic type is sometimes associated with space in pokemon (like with Beheeyem/Elgyem, Deoxys, and the Anistar Gym).

Common pre evo:
Coming from a common pre evo is the most unbelievable part about this theory. Legendaries never get pre evos (poor Phione). The only way I can see it working is if by "pre evo," they actually mean a common ancestor. Evolution in the pokemon world is much more akin to metamorphosis more often than not. However, we have seen a bit of real life evolution before in the form of Mew. Mew is said to be the ancestor of all pokemon. True, this does come from the pokedex, which is notoriously unreliable, but there is other evidence to support this. Notably, Mew's ability to learn every move, and it's design, which is incredibly simple and fetus-like. It's typically believed that the ancestor of all life on Earth was similarly a very simple organism. So maybe Solgaleo and Lunala share a common ancestor? One that either isn't Mew if they really are from another dimension, or one that came after Mew if they're not. And they evolved into different species from there, which is why they look so different overall, but share a few similarities. But even this is a stretch tbh.

I guess I'll keep an open mind. SM is shaking up to be a very different pokemon game, so anything could happen. But it still all seems too farfetched for me atm.
 
We
TheMantyke:
First, spoiler tags.
Many of the paired Legendaries share design themes. Groudon & Kyogre have those line pattern; Dialga & Palkia have complicated headpieces and an encased jewel somewhere on their body; Reshiram & Zekrom have turbine tails and wispy head pieces; and Xerneas & Yveltal have organic body patterns (Xerneas' horns look like chromosomes and Yveltal's body pattern look like veins). Also I think all Legendaries can make their eye glows, it's a power thing.



Eh, I'd call this one a stretch. Yeah they have a lot of white and yellow on them but Solgaleo highlights are in orange while Lunala is navy blue. I'd more say this is just another design theme they have in common, not really its own clue.

Can't say whether you're right or wrong, but I don't see the point giving them a prevo unless you were going to be given a choice of what you want to evolve it into. Also Solgaleo is a lion and Lunala is a bat, unless there's a secondary theme I'm not seeing (like Remoraid evolving to Octillery makes sense if you look at it as a gun evolving into a cannon) I don't see what a common prevo for them would look like an why such a drastic design basis between the two. I'd just say its a rumor that got lucky.
Well, to be fair,
Reshiram and Zekrom WERE part of the same being before
 
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