Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

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Taistelu said:
There's are marked difference in Zygarde and Ash-Greninja. One is fused with an Anime character, the other is not.
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It wouldn't be the first time the anime has influenced the games. Besides the obvious example that is yellow, Steven mentioned Alan in the delta episode:

The young man who battled against Rayquaza beside me… I wonder whatever happened to him and that black Charizard of his…
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I seriously doubt ash-greninja will make an appearance, but with all the other crazy stuff happening in SM, who knows at this point.
 
Pyritie said:
It wouldn't be the first time the anime has influenced the games. Besides the obvious example that is yellow, Steven mentioned Alan in the delta episode
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There's still a huge difference. You're suggesting that two different canons should merge just so you can have your dreams of having Ash-Greninja being in S/M.

Be realistic.
 
Taistelu said:
There's still a huge difference. You're suggesting that two different canons should merge just so you can have your dreams of having Ash-Greninja being in S/M.

Be realistic.
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First of all it's not my "dream" to have it in SM. I would hate that. I am just suggesting that it is within the realm of possibility.

Second of all, before we got news that zygarde was going to appear in SM with all its new toys, it had been in exactly the same media that ash-greninja had at that point. Maybe that was just an anime exclusive as well, at first. But then over time both the zygarde formes and ash-greninja started appearing in everything else. The TCG, picross, shuffle, tretta, etc. For all intents and purposes, the two things were always paired together -- until zygarde's stuff appeared in SM. Now there's a disconnect.

So, as much as I'd hate for it to happen, could ash-greninja appear in SM? Well yeah you're right, ash himself has never appeared in any games, only other anime-exclusive characters (team rocket etc in yellow, alan in delta episode (by name only)). But given that SM has already broken so many traditions already, I wouldn't be very surprised if ash-greninja did make an appearance in some shape or form.
 
Taistelu said:
There's still a huge difference. You're suggesting that two different canons should merge just so you can have your dreams of having Ash-Greninja being in S/M.

Be realistic.
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Not really. Although it's true that the games and the anime are different canon, they are still from the same franchise. Are you honestly saying that Pokémon as a franchise won't have any simularities between the games and the anime? You know that's not true. Beyond Pyritie's own examples, we've also received anime character's pokémon in the past before, as well.

He's not saying that the two should merge. He's saying that the anime has influenced the games in the past before, and it shouldn't be so unbelievable that it would influence the games in the future. It's entirely possible for us to say that some form of Ash-Greninja will appear in Sun and Moon because we don't know everything about the new games. We haven't even seen any contextual information on megas yet. It may seem that we've seen a lot, and we have, but we haven't seen everything, and nothing is disproven until the games are actually out.
 
Kiga Pyritie to lazy to quote rn and wanted an excuse to use tag.

The fact is your suggesting they bring the Anime Protagonist in to S/M. There's a pretty big difference between "referencing something in the anime" to "ripping something directly from the anime into S/M. Yellow was based on the Anime. S/M isn't. Pretty big different. And the "we haven't seen the game so its a possibility" is crap. For all we know UBs could actually be Pokemon despite heavy evidence against it. "We don't know until the games are released". The starters not having evolutions is a crazy idea (just like Ash-Greninja) in S/M but since the game haven't been released and we haven't got official info its "within the realm of possibility". "By name only" doesn't seem like a particularly strong argument either. The point still stands that they are seperate cannons, and you want them to cross over.
 
Taistelu said:
The fact is your suggesting they bring the Anime Protagonist in to S/M. There's a pretty big difference between "referencing something in the anime" to "ripping something directly from the anime into S/M. Yellow was based on the Anime. S/M isn't. Pretty big different. And the "we haven't seen the game so its a possibility" is crap. For all we know UBs could actually be Pokemon despite heavy evidence against it. "We don't know until the games are released". The starters not having evolutions is a crazy idea (just like Ash-Greninja) in S/M but since the game haven't been released and we haven't got official info its "within the realm of possibility".
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Not once have I said that ash himself will appear. Just his greninja in some shape or form. Maybe megas will return and we'll get greninjite that mega evolves greninja into a form that looks very similar. Maybe it'll just be an event mon we get delivered to us through the delivery girl.

"By name only" doesn't seem like a particularly strong argument either. The point still stands that they are seperate cannons, and you want them to cross over.
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There is a very big difference between canons completely merging and one just making a reference to the other. I am arguing for the latter.
 
It is one thing if it is an event-only Pokemon (like AZ's Flotette and Spikey-Eared Pichu) since it is a reference more than anything. Yeah it would be slightly odd to have Ash referenced this way, but alternate dimensions are confirmed to exist. Ultimately it isn't a big deal in this case and I'm sure people will get over it after awhile.

But if it is an indicator of some kinda Syncro Evolution mechanic... Well, no sense to continue to beat a thrice-dead horse as I've gone over my arguments on the matter plenty of times before.
 
Hmm, what is the difference between Zygarde's Formes and Ash-Greninja? That's a good question, and honestly one I can't think of a direct answer for. The only answer I can think of are sketchy but to me they sound good enough to distance the two:

Presentation: Let's look at how they were shown to us in the anime. Zygarde Formes were rather randomly introduced; in the anime we saw Team Flare experimenting on a Zygarde Core (and a few Cells) and also going after a second Zygarde. It felt like the writers were shown Zygarde was getting new Formes so they wrote them in as soon as they could, as if they wanted to get them in before a game came out with them in it. Ash-Greninja meanwhile was built up. We were told Ash's Greninja will save the Kalos region (which BTW was also a bust, did it do anything specifically to alter how things went?), when it evolved it then revealed it had a strange transformation power but we couldn't see it clearly, then after some development Ash and Greninja finally mastered the transformation. This more felt like the writers had an idea and slowly developed the idea, foreshadowing it so the viewer wouldn't be completely caught off guard with why Greninja can now go super saiyan. Also it replaced Ash's need for a Mega Pokemon which I see as another red flag.
Tl;dr, I feel Zygarde is a bit more legit as it felt was shoved into the plot so it was in there before the games while they took their time to develop Ash-Greninja seemingly now worried when the next games were going to be announced (since it wasn't going to be in the games).

Design: This one is simple, Ash-Greninja looks like Ash because its formed between Greninja and Ash. So unless you're Ash, you can't turn your Greninja into Ash-Greninja. The closest thing they could have done was what Codraroll described (and I had described many times previously): in Z the Starters final evos would have a super form who's appearance will be dependent on their trainer's model. However we would never know, but the point still stands with Ash-Greninja. The Zygarde Formes are their own thing, there's really nothing stopping anyone from saying "well Zygarde can't be put into the games because of (reason here)".
 
tbh Ash-Greninja always seemed like just an itemless mega with an aesthetic specialty. basically functioning the same as M-Rayquaza, appearance aside. It seems pretty easy to implement as a mega - and like Codraroll said, that seems like a perfect Pokemon Z addition.

but we're in SM territory now, so it's really up in the air. it's past its time and out of relevance, but y'know it could still happen. we don't need Ash to even exist in order to have his greninja if his outfit pattern is available. the only "real" problem is that this game isn't focused on mega evolution anymore. but basically yeah, the whole conversation is entirely speculation. Ash/Mega/'synchro' Greninja was never promised so while it's frustrating, it's not exactly fair to assume it'll exist. see: crystal onix
 
Hmm, if we think about it, though: when has the anime ever introduced something that wasn't (or wouldn't be later on) present in the games? I do not mean battle mechanics since I know they don't go hand in hand most of the time, but rather specific elements of worldbuilding.

Ash-Greninja isn't something made up on the spot like the infamous "Thunder Armor" or the Crystal Onix. No, it has lore behind it and they've invested far too much into it not to implement it somehow into the games. Take Ho-Oh for example, we got a glimpse of it in the very 1st episode of the anime, but it was only officially released 3 years later ( The anime debuted in 1996, Gen 2 came out in 1999) so there is precedence for this kind of thing.

Maybe it'll be gen 8 by the time we hear of the Bond Phenomenon ( seriously, stop calling it Syncro-Evolution; it has an actual name ) again, or it'll simply be distributed through a Mystery Gift. I don't know, but I highly doubt it'll remain an anime-exclusive thing for the rest of time.
 
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The Crytsal Onix was the early anime just being the early anime (read: weird). The only other time something like this has happened at all recently was the bizarre Groudon in the Jirachi movie, and that was still like 10 years ago.

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I seriously doubt the anime - which is an advertisement for the games - would actively push something as major as a new forme that was never intended to appear in the games. It just makes no sense.
 
Karxrida said:
The Crytsal Onix was the early anime just being the early anime (read: weird). The only other time something like this has happened at all recently was the bizarre Groudon in the Jirachi movie, and that was still like 10 years ago.

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I seriously doubt the anime - which is an advertisement for the games - would actively push something as major as a new forme that was never intended to appear in the games. It just makes no sense.
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Unless they didn't want to give Ash a normal Mega Pokemon but still needed to give him something possibly as powerful (won't say "just as powerful" as Ash-Greninja's went up and down the high power scale depending on where the writer needed it to be at the time). Making a super form of the Kalos Starter that Ash has and having it purposely be something only Ash can do is a perfect out. Not in the game? Who cares, the anime story derailed from the game's story so this is just another element that's outside of the games.
 
Karxrida said:
The Crytsal Onix was the early anime just being the early anime (read: weird). The only other time something like this has happened at all recently was the bizarre Groudon in the Jirachi movie, and that was still like 10 years ago.

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I seriously doubt the anime - which is an advertisement for the games - would actively push something as major as a new forme that was never intended to appear in the games. It just makes no sense.
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To be fair, we are about to pretty much enter the High School AU. There's enough Anime/Game segregation to where Ash-Greninja being anime-exclusive doesn't seem horribly farfetch'd anymore.

corrin said:
Maybe it'll be gen 8 by the time we hear of the Bond Phenomenon ( seriously, stop calling it Syncro-Evolution; it has an actual name ) again, or it'll simply be distributed through a Mystery Gift. I don't know, but I highly doubt it'll remain an anime-exclusive thing for the rest of time.
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Oh? It's called the Bond Phenomenon? Really? Where have I hea-wait. O-powers are a thing in the game. They are given to you by a man named "Mr. Bond". They are a sign of your bond with your pokemon.

Holy O-Power Batman!
Mr Bond is actually Ash Ketchum!
 
Can we please not get into the Bond Phenomenon debate. Even though it is within the realm of possibility(we still don't know what that animation was at the end of the Samson trailer) and I really want it to happen(I've even come up ways it could work, is it bad I'm in love with a mechanic that doesn't exist yet),I really doubt that it will happen.
 
alright crystal onix wasn't the best example. but point being there has always been something somewhere that has existed and never found its way into the games. yes, a big thing like greninja is very likely to get a debut. but given game direction i won't be surprised if it doesn't

personally, i hope it manages to come out as another mega akin to M-Rayquaza, but Gamefreak has literally no real in-game reason to include it so far as we know. I think it would be nice and cool to see it come into the games, and not at all unprecedented like the Notch-Ear Pichu, but i just have the sinking feeling it will be event-only at best. i'm not trying to be unrealistic, in fact if anything i'm shitting on my own parade. but yeah. i would be amazed this thread hasn't closed for so much endless speculation on an old topic if we weren't getting news tomorrow
 
Guys I need nickname help. For Rockruff it's Pakun, for midnight form it's Kakashi, but I don't know what to name midday form. It's a tie between Spitz, Ninkin, and Fenrir. edit: I'm picking Kurama.2nd edit: You know what fuck it his name is Ace. He's Batdog now.
 
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Kurona said:
Huh? Where does it say that; did I miss something?
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In the description of the video, it says: 「2017年1月にバージョンアップし、『ポケットモンスター サン・ムーン』に対応する予定です。」 In English, it says there will be a version update in Jan 2017 to make Pokebank compatible with Sun / Moon. The following sentences in the description state that we'll be able to transfer from X/Y, ORAS, and the VC Red/Blue/Yellow games.
 
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