Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Schpoonman]

So assuming I've already accrued a KO with Magearna, this is the best you can do with +1 All-Out Pummeling.
+1 252+ SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 243-286 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thunderbolt is looking a little more viable now, since it also beats Toxapex which otherwise walls you. +1 Thunderbolt 2HKOs Celesteela on its own, and with pretty much any prior damage and Rocks, +1 LO Thunderbolt KOs.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 299-354 (75.1 - 88.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 237-281 (77.9 - 92.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think I'm gonna keep running Bisharp or other Pursuit mons with Magearna and Koko. Shutting down Marowak that easily is pretty cash.

 

[VCrakeV]

You act like 2HKO'ing a blob as a special attacker is no big deal.

Not even latios has that kind of damage with psyshock.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-266 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This just has absolutely no walls, steel types often don't have recovery and can only switch in so much. HP fire is also a thing.

Scarf sets just ruin greninja and duggy, its the fact that is has a way around all its problems that makes it too much to deal with. Are team preview nobody knows if its scarf or life orb yet to appropriately deal with it.

Not to mention is supports an entire team, it basically breaks every psychic type in the game.

If you think a single Pokémon should be able to wall an entire class of Pokémon (special attackers), that's a problem. Besides, it's one special attacker. Even Mega zam only does 50% with psyshock. Speaking of which, that's the only special move that stands a chance. Super effective stab even fails: Phermosa, max SPA, 2 hit KOs Chansey IF the rolls are good, IF it lands two focus blasts, IF Chansey has no SPD investment. Yes, it usually runs high jump kick, but my point is that a Pokémon shouldn't be able to wall everything that targets its special defense. But the brokenness of pink blobs is a digression...

You act like lele can do everything it wants. Specs can't switch to HP fire to take out steel types. Life orb and specs doesn't outspeed many threats. Scarf lacks power. Steel types can take at least one hit and hit hard back, while simultaneously checking for life orb recoil, specs damage, or turn order.

Lele is not broken. It can't counter all of its checks. It can either counter Greninja and dugtrio or Ferrothorn and Scizor, but not both. Saying a mon CAN do everything with different sets doesn't make it broken. Double choice items on many Pokémon would be broken.

 

[elitesalamander]

alola muks curse rest/talk set is a great lele counter immune to psy attacks and can tank moon blasts from lele and focus mis from alakazam.

 

[BeardyBennett]

I'm sure other people have made notice that A-Marowak and M-Gyarados make a pretty good combination as they effectively cover each other offensively but also are pretty much perfect defensively. What I'm having a hard time thinking of are other good members to add around this core. Any help would be appreciated.

A Grass type like Tapu Bulu can help out a lot with that group because after Mega, Gyarados no longer covers the Ground weakness of A-Maro. Plus then Grassy Terrain can help with their longevity. Bronzong could be nice too as a Ground immunity for A-Maro and as a nice Rock resist for A-Maro and M-Gyarados before Mega. Plus it can screen set to further add to your core and help Gyarados set-up, or pass around Toxic's for passive. It also hits Fairies super effectively which A-Marowak does not do, while of course giving you two Fairy resists.

EDIT: For future reference your post probably belongs in the OU Bazaar. But I like getting any chance I can to talk up Bronzong and how it does complete a lot of good cores in this meta.

 

[Windgrace]

A Grass type like Tapu Bulu can help out a lot with that group because after Mega, Gyarados no longer covers the Ground weakness of A-Maro. Plus then Grassy Terrain can help with their longevity. Bronzong could be nice too as a Ground immunity for A-Maro and as a nice Rock resist for A-Maro and M-Gyarados before Mega. Plus it can screen set to further add to your core and help Gyarados set-up, or pass around Toxic's for passive. It also hits Fairies super effectively which A-Marowak does not do, while of course giving you two Fairy resists.

EDIT: For future reference your post probably belongs in the OU Bazaar. But I like getting any chance I can to talk up Bronzong and how it does complete a lot of good cores in this meta.

I was thinking Bulu would round out the FWG core with the others. I really am keen on trying out banded Bulu.


As a side note, there's a lot of overlap in subject matter between this thread and the one that you mentioned. Plus there's been plenty of discussion about good/bad cores in this thread...

 

[Ropeburn]

EDIT: For future reference your post probably belongs in the OU Bazaar. But I like getting any chance I can to talk up Bronzong and how it does complete a lot of good cores in this meta.

I don't think Bronzong has any place in this meta right now. He has no recovery, no offensive presence, is total and complete setup bait, and competes for a team slot alongside stuff like Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Celesteela, Skarmory, etc. He's just this weight on your team's momentum that really doesn't do his job well enough to warrant being used.

 

[nameless90]

Thousand Arrows is so much better than Earthquake that this alone makes Zygarde 50% very good if your team needs a bulky Ground/Dragon. Grass Terrain and Levitate/Flying types are enough to handle quite well Garchomp's and Landorus-T's one, so this is a good buff for Zygarde 50%, which now has a move which combines a weaker Earthquake with Smack Down in one moveslot. Still, though, is bad being locked with Aura Break, which is basically useless in OU.

 

[Super Muchacho]

Did anyone discovered a proper use of z-Explosion? Its an 500 Base Power Move and you do not faint. The best i could figure out was SD Exeggutor but its other attacks are preferable in most situations. Most other mons are to slow and unbulky for the current meta. Also scolipede + lando was to much setup-time to be more than a niche.

 

[Askeia]

If you think a single Pokémon should be able to wall an entire class of Pokémon (special attackers), that's a problem. Besides, it's one special attacker. Even Mega zam only does 50% with psyshock. Speaking of which, that's the only special move that stands a chance. Super effective stab even fails: Phermosa, max SPA, 2 hit KOs Chansey IF the rolls are good, IF it lands two focus blasts, IF Chansey has no SPD investment. Yes, it usually runs high jump kick, but my point is that a Pokémon shouldn't be able to wall everything that targets its special defense. But the brokenness of pink blobs is a digression...

You act like lele can do everything it wants. Specs can't switch to HP fire to take out steel types. Life orb and specs doesn't outspeed many threats. Scarf lacks power. Steel types can take at least one hit and hit hard back, while simultaneously checking for life orb recoil, specs damage, or turn order.

Lele is not broken. It can't counter all of its checks. It can either counter Greninja and dugtrio or Ferrothorn and Scizor, but not both. Saying a mon CAN do everything with different sets doesn't make it broken. Double choice items on many Pokémon would be broken.

I'm not sure why people believe that Ferrothorn and Scizor walls Lele, specs can just brute force through it with Psychic. Ferrothorn is 2HKOed with just a bit of prior damage and defensive SD Scizor is always 2HKOed. Also saying Scarf lacks power is ridiculous lol, her psychic still hits almost as hard as LO Latios Draco Meteor and I don't see anyone saying that lacks power. Really the only defensive checks to Specs Lele are the blobs, and some 4x resists. Everything else just get 2HKOed. Also, it's possible to just run Psychic + Psyshock on the same set for breaking Chansey since Shadow Ball is no longer mandatory for Aegis

While it cannot sweep a team on its own, it is almost certain to break something first, while simultaneously powering up the rest of the team. Greninja doesn't even check Lele, he can only switch in after Lele gets a kill, and she will just switch out to sack something for Alakazam to come in, Trace Protean and cleans house. Same goes to most other Lele checks - they simply lose to Zam, who simply punishes you harder for removing Lele

 

[Jajoken]

Did anyone discovered a proper use of z-Explosion? Its an 500 Base Power Move and you do not faint. The best i could figure out was SD Exeggutor but its other attacks are preferable in most situations. Most other mons are to slow and unbulky for the current meta. Also scolipede + lando was to much setup-time to be more than a niche.

Actually it's only 200, which is weaker than normal Explosion, albeit with less suicide. Silvally is probably the only notable user due to STAB, and even then I'm not so sure it's worth it.

 

[57west]

A Grass type like Tapu Bulu can help out a lot with that group because after Mega, Gyarados no longer covers the Ground weakness of A-Maro. Plus then Grassy Terrain can help with their longevity. Bronzong could be nice too as a Ground immunity for A-Maro and as a nice Rock resist for A-Maro and M-Gyarados before Mega. Plus it can screen set to further add to your core and help Gyarados set-up, or pass around Toxic's for passive. It also hits Fairies super effectively which A-Marowak does not do, while of course giving you two Fairy resists.

EDIT: For future reference your post probably belongs in the OU Bazaar. But I like getting any chance I can to talk up Bronzong and how it does complete a lot of good cores in this meta.

My man, I love Bronzong in the Meta too, honestly though it will likely still be niche since Jirachi and Megagross are still super great in the meta from what I can tell and outclass my boi Bronzong in spite of levitate

Does anyone know when usage statistics for the meta will come out

 

[BeardyBennett]

Since there's so much talk about Tapu Lele, I feel this as good a time as any to talk about the Tapu's as a whole. Namely, are the Tapu's OP or nah? With what all has been said about Lele above and what I have been seeing and hearing elsewhere, it seems like it may be a bit on the OP-side. However, I haven't heard much about this being the case for Bulu, Fini, and Koko.

I haven't played many of these other three to speak much on them, however I don't think any of the other three are as much of a concern. Fini in particular seems to be the weakest of the group have the lowest offensive firepower pre-set-up. It's a bulky Water who oddly can't do the things most people look for in their bulky Waters. Namely, it can't reliably recover (not even Rest, RIP CroFini dreams) and it can't status other mons do to its Terrain. By no means do I think Tapu Fini is bad, Defog is great as is it's set-up capability. That being said, it definitely seems the lowest on the (pardon the pun) totem pole.

Bulu meanwhile is a certifiable monster with its great attack stat and ability to boost said attack stat. Sub-Toxic is another set I have heard works well. It's terrain is great as well, arguably (in my opinion) only behind Tapu Lele's for the best terrain of the Tapus. However, it does have fairly low speed and there are plenty of faster scarfers running around as well if you opt to Scarf Bulu. Its movepool also isn't great as it notably misses something like Play Rough for good physical Fairy STAB. Also, despite decent bulk, Grass-Fairy is a pretty bad defensive typing.

Then there's Koko, who's Terrain helps to mitigate a slightly disappointing SpA stat for which its movepool may best be suited for (STAB Volt Switch, Dazzling Gleam, HP's) though it's 115 Attack stat does have a good movepool to work with as well (don't worry, I know physical Koko is pretty great). However, it is blazingly fast at 130 which lets it outspeed some slower Scarfers and plenty of mons without Scarves. It is probably the second best Tapu with said speed, mixed offensive power, great Terrain, great movepool, and great typing, but is held back by some poor bulk.

Out of them all, I could see Lele getting banhammered but I'm not totally sure on that yet. Koko would probably be the next one up for a ban, but I honestly just don't see that happening. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I'd be surprised. Bulu is perhaps the Tapu I am least familiar with but I'd be surprised to see it wind up Ubers. Fini being sent to Ubers would make my jaw hit the floor. I could honestly see Fini hit UU/BL, though I think it'll still sit solidly in OU. But that's just my opinion and I am low-ladder scum. What say the rest of you on the Tapu's?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

They all love, love, love magnet zone for trapping steels so they can double up on their power and that with a solid beast with speed cleans up a lot of the rest of the meta outside of marowak and toxped and the landoruses.

The counter meta seem to be dugtrio with said steel pokemon.

Maybe I'm overrating trapping, but there are many hard hitters with a handful of defensive checks that get blasted by either dugtrio/magnet zone.

Kind of wanna try tepe bulu with katakana, think it'd be really good

 

[heavylobster43]

Since there's so much talk about Tapu Lele, I feel this as good a time as any to talk about the Tapu's as a whole. Namely, are the Tapu's OP or nah? With what all has been said about Lele above and what I have been seeing and hearing elsewhere, it seems like it may be a bit on the OP-side. However, I haven't heard much about this being the case for Bulu, Fini, and Koko.

I haven't played many of these other three to speak much on them, however I don't think any of the other three are as much of a concern. Fini in particular seems to be the weakest of the group have the lowest offensive firepower pre-set-up. It's a bulky Water who oddly can't do the things most people look for in their bulky Waters. Namely, it can't reliably recover (not even Rest, RIP CroFini dreams) and it can't status other mons do to its Terrain. By no means do I think Tapu Fini is bad, Defog is great as is it's set-up capability. That being said, it definitely seems the lowest on the (pardon the pun) totem pole.

Bulu meanwhile is a certifiable monster with its great attack stat and ability to boost said attack stat. Sub-Toxic is another set I have heard works well. It's terrain is great as well, arguably (in my opinion) only behind Tapu Lele's for the best terrain of the Tapus. However, it does have fairly low speed and there are plenty of faster scarfers running around as well if you opt to Scarf Bulu. Its movepool also isn't great as it notably misses something like Play Rough for good physical Fairy STAB. Also, despite decent bulk, Grass-Fairy is a pretty bad defensive typing.

Then there's Koko, who's Terrain helps to mitigate a slightly disappointing SpA stat for which its movepool may best be suited for (STAB Volt Switch, Dazzling Gleam, HP's) though it's 115 Attack stat does have a good movepool to work with as well (don't worry, I know physical Koko is pretty great). However, it is blazingly fast at 130 which lets it outspeed some slower Scarfers and plenty of mons without Scarves. It is probably the second best Tapu with said speed, mixed offensive power, great Terrain, great movepool, and great typing, but is held back by some poor bulk.

Out of them all, I could see Lele getting banhammered but I'm not totally sure on that yet. Koko would probably be the next one up for a ban, but I honestly just don't see that happening. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I'd be surprised. Bulu is perhaps the Tapu I am least familiar with but I'd be surprised to see it wind up Ubers. Fini being sent to Ubers would make my jaw hit the floor. I could honestly see Fini hit UU/BL, though I think it'll still sit solidly in OU. But that's just my opinion and I am low-ladder scum. What say the rest of you on the Tapu's?

Bulu and Koko are great, OU-defining threats, but it's not hard at all to fit solid checks to each of them on a team. They're great mons, and are both pretty splashable while providing good team support. Lele really kind of stretches things in terms of checking it, and the kind of support it supplies is tough to deal with on top of the pressure it provides itself. Fini isn't tier-defining, but it's solidly OU. I think its stallbreaker set is probably its best, and that plus its team support is great for offensive teams. I don't really like its Defog set quite as much because it's pretty passive, but it could probably run Nature's Madness just to take a chunk out of switch-ins so they can't come in for free, and it does cover an important defensive niche. It's good when used properly, but isn't as versatile as the other Tapus.

 

[57west]

Since there's so much talk about Tapu Lele, I feel this as good a time as any to talk about the Tapu's as a whole. Namely, are the Tapu's OP or nah? With what all has been said about Lele above and what I have been seeing and hearing elsewhere, it seems like it may be a bit on the OP-side. However, I haven't heard much about this being the case for Bulu, Fini, and Koko.

I haven't played many of these other three to speak much on them, however I don't think any of the other three are as much of a concern. Fini in particular seems to be the weakest of the group have the lowest offensive firepower pre-set-up. It's a bulky Water who oddly can't do the things most people look for in their bulky Waters. Namely, it can't reliably recover (not even Rest, RIP CroFini dreams) and it can't status other mons do to its Terrain. By no means do I think Tapu Fini is bad, Defog is great as is it's set-up capability. That being said, it definitely seems the lowest on the (pardon the pun) totem pole.

Bulu meanwhile is a certifiable monster with its great attack stat and ability to boost said attack stat. Sub-Toxic is another set I have heard works well. It's terrain is great as well, arguably (in my opinion) only behind Tapu Lele's for the best terrain of the Tapus. However, it does have fairly low speed and there are plenty of faster scarfers running around as well if you opt to Scarf Bulu. Its movepool also isn't great as it notably misses something like Play Rough for good physical Fairy STAB. Also, despite decent bulk, Grass-Fairy is a pretty bad defensive typing.

Then there's Koko, who's Terrain helps to mitigate a slightly disappointing SpA stat for which its movepool may best be suited for (STAB Volt Switch, Dazzling Gleam, HP's) though it's 115 Attack stat does have a good movepool to work with as well (don't worry, I know physical Koko is pretty great). However, it is blazingly fast at 130 which lets it outspeed some slower Scarfers and plenty of mons without Scarves. It is probably the second best Tapu with said speed, mixed offensive power, great Terrain, great movepool, and great typing, but is held back by some poor bulk.

Out of them all, I could see Lele getting banhammered but I'm not totally sure on that yet. Koko would probably be the next one up for a ban, but I honestly just don't see that happening. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I'd be surprised. Bulu is perhaps the Tapu I am least familiar with but I'd be surprised to see it wind up Ubers. Fini being sent to Ubers would make my jaw hit the floor. I could honestly see Fini hit UU/BL, though I think it'll still sit solidly in OU. But that's just my opinion and I am low-ladder scum. What say the rest of you on the Tapu's?

I think Fini and Bulu never see suspects, I doubt any will be banned, a lot of people are on the Lele is busted hype train but it has counterplay, and thats what we need to enbrace in the meta more than having a set number of hard counters, I think Koko gets a suspect but its perfectly manageable in my opinion

 

[Machi]

If you think a single Pokémon should be able to wall an entire class of Pokémon (special attackers), that's a problem. Besides, it's one special attacker. Even Mega zam only does 50% with psyshock. Speaking of which, that's the only special move that stands a chance. Super effective stab even fails: Phermosa, max SPA, 2 hit KOs Chansey IF the rolls are good, IF it lands two focus blasts, IF Chansey has no SPD investment. Yes, it usually runs high jump kick, but my point is that a Pokémon shouldn't be able to wall everything that targets its special defense. But the brokenness of pink blobs is a digression...

You act like lele can do everything it wants. Specs can't switch to HP fire to take out steel types. Life orb and specs doesn't outspeed many threats. Scarf lacks power. Steel types can take at least one hit and hit hard back, while simultaneously checking for life orb recoil, specs damage, or turn order.

Lele is not broken. It can't counter all of its checks. It can either counter Greninja and dugtrio or Ferrothorn and Scizor, but not both. Saying a mon CAN do everything with different sets doesn't make it broken. Double choice items on many Pokémon would be broken.

You missed the point about having Chansey be brought up, namely how difficult it is to actually WALL Lele. Chansey is first and foremost benchmark, a point of reference because obviously it is among the most common and effective means of walling a special attack. And you're just shifting the goal post at this point if you're just going to shrug the fact that Lele can actually bypass what has proven to be bulkiest special wall available to the metagame.

As for your supposed answers you're only looking at it from one play style, namely offense. If you try to look at it from more balanced or stall oriented ones or just slower teams in general Lele is definitely a nightmare because they're not going to be out-speeding Lele any time soon to simply revenge kill Lele nor is it going to be walling its attacks very well, because we know its capable of bypassing Chansey and not much other mons can compete with that.

But even then the real kicker here isn't her offensive prowess its how she supports the team with Psychic terrain. Not only does it boost Psychic types offensive prowess but more importantly prevents the use of priority, which in turn limits your potential for speed control. Which is what you'd have to consider because its not simply played as a wallbreaker / revenge killer, and looking at it from that perspective limits what you'd be doing with Lele -- which is what makes her so effective against a myriad of playstyles.

 

[Twilightphoenix10]

I feel all the tapus are managable and should stay in OU. They can be monsters when played right and they do make some powerful cores and combos (like A-Raichu with electric terrain from KoKo or M-Alakazam with psychic terrain)

The Ultra Beasts however I feel are rather over powered for the most part and I'm not just talking Pheramosa. Why do I feel this way? well the answer is their ability beast boost, that isn't to say all of them are like this, but with the exception of Celesteel and Guzzlord (maybe Buzwol and Zuktree) they are easily capable of sweeping entire teams with little effort or set up. Even Celesteel is a bit OP in the defense department with the ability to stall like crazy and makes a devestating defensive core with Toxipex, but it is possible to deal with her with electric, dark, ghost, fire, and rock type attacks.
I see at least 1-2 ultra beasts on nearly every team I play against (its either them or the Tapus) and its not that they can't be countered its more like they only have 1 or 2 viable counters that are decent if that, with the exceptions of guzzlord and Zuktree who die to 4 of the most common types in OU (fairy, dragon, ice, and ground).

 

[Skycrusher]

Lele's basically a better version of MegaZardY, nearly identical bulk and speed, LO Psychic hits basically as hard as Fire Blast(without missing), her Moonblast/Focus Blast hits harder than Zard's Solar Beam/Focus Blast. Also immunity to priority, no stealth rock weakness, doesn't take up your mega slot, can run Psyshock for special walls, can run scarf or a CM set. It doesn't get recovery like Zard but I can see it getting banned, or at least being a constant top threat in OU.

Koko's speed+power is virtually unmatched in OU, but I think of it more as a perfect OU mon rather than a broken one. Move tutors giving it more coverage could potentially push it over the top similar to Greninja in ORAS though.

Bulu's a monster and probably my favorite (was my least favorite initially), it can focus on power/bulk/support/whatever kinda like Heatran or Ttar; but with it's typing, speed stat, and special bulk, I don't ever see people really questioning it's brokenness.

Fini is maybe the most balanced, I don't think she'll ever win you a game you really shouldn't have won but she can certainly fill a role on a lot of different teams.

Overall though I feel like this gen pretty much officially makes OU pseudOUbers and I personally can't wait for UU to start.

 

[Ema Skye]

Lele is the only tapu I could see getting a suspect. The team support it provides is outstanding and it isn't a slouch on its own (unlike other support mons). It's very difficult to check or revenge kill with how hard it hits.

Koko is fine right now but that may change with the meta. It doesn't hit that hard outside of Pelipper teams (rain support allows Thunder which hurts!) and its team support is limited to Raichu-A, who is rather mediocre without Koko's support.

Bulu and Fini are fine. I'd actually argue that Fini is underpowered compared to the rest of her quartet.

 

[57west]

Lele may prove to be broken but right now Stall doesnt have an archetype to latch to and there are too many other threats holding Stall down, to determine if Lele inhibits it too much, I'll grant Psychic terrain boosted psychics are insane from it but most Lele's are predictable since most are choiced right now, and innovative bulky or fast sets for steel types deal with it fine

 

[Schpoonman]

The question at this point is whether or not stall has evolved with Sun and Moon (like it did with Generations 5 and 6) to the point that it can handle Tapu Lele. As of right now, I would say that it has not. We got a fantastic Psychic resist in Celesteela, but it's horribly vulnerable to Magnezone, so stall has taken a real beating this generation. Perhaps it's my bias having played all of Kokoloko's UU, but right now the best move available to me is to either quickban Lele and retest it at a later date or suspect Lele with a ladder that has it banned and examine the effects of OU without it.

At this juncture I'm inclined to rate Lele at a level similar to Pheromosa, in that it's not capable of 1v1ing the entire tier, but it only requires one or two teammates to fuck over virtually every team archetype because its checks and counters are completely covered by that minimal support.

If Tapu Lele is "weaker" than Pheromosa, it's only because Ghosts are more easily trapped than Dark-types, but Tapu Lele has the advantage of STAB Moonblast which obliterates every Dark-type in the tier (Bisharp is very cleanly 2HKO'd by Scarf Moonblast), which effectively limits safe switch-ins to Steel-types, which as I stated earlier are mostly fodder for Magnezone. Lele is a lot like Landorus-I when Sheer Force was first released in that we have no idea how to effectively deal with it, and it's probably safer to leave it out of the tier until it settles.

Again, I could be biased because of how Kokoloko ran early XY UU, but removing broken elements early and letting the tier settle "healthily" sounds like a better idea than letting it centralize around broken elements (arguably or otherwise) and take that as the norm.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

So after using a sun team for a little bit:

Super surprisingly, Torkoal/Dugtrio/Venusaur/Volcarona is the starting point for probably every sun build. Chlorophyll Venusaur is really hard to handle for a lot of teams, Dugtrio is straight up broken imo, and Volcarona sweeps aren't actually too hard to pull off (Z-Hyper Beam kills on stuff that should rightly check Volcarona are very satisfying.)

Playing off of Torkoal's very functional bulk, I imagine it would also be possible to use a more bulky offense sun team by using Tangrowth over Venusaur (176+ speed lets you outpace base 130's but that's a lot of EV's that could go into bulk, but you need 144+ minimum for outspeeding Greninja,) dropping Dugtrio and Volcarona, using Alolan Marowak probably, Tapu Fini most likely for Defog... idk, it could be something to explore but I don't think it would be as good as HO Sun.

I've only peaked at 1500ish but I'm also a really mediocre player (I also get bored using the same team and then end up trying out some really dumb garbage that drops me back into the anime-team ELO range. Last time it was exploring a core of CB+Galvanize Alolan Golem wand Mega Glalie, both with Explosion. Super pro-tip it sucks. I should probably use alts.) My two other slots were spikes lead greninja because Venusaur misses a lot of KO's without the chip damage... and pyukumuku as insurance against random set-up sweepers and for the slow baton pass to actually get stuff in without saccing. It's probably not the best choice but it's been very nice to have (at the very least, it's saved me from mega pinsir more than a few times.)

Could probably make a better team but I'm kind of bad at that, too. I don't think Sun is a gimmick, and is actually pretty functional; someone who can actually build teams should take a crack at it and see what they can come up with.

 

[Seamus Eso]

What idiot in their right mind thinks Tapu Lele is broken at this stage lmao. Stop putting so much emphasis in stall, if it sucks, it sucks, deal with it. Just like how offense sucked late XY and most of ORAS. The logic of preserving stall's viability as a good reason to ban threats is utterly biased bullshit. The metagame doesnt owe stall or defensive playstyles anything. We shouldn't have to care if something forces stall to use very specific shitmons or makes it outright unviable at all as long as it's managable overall. Tapu Lele is 100% managable without much effort. On the long run when the meta settles, it might be taken into consideration all though highly unlikely since Psychic Terrain has some powerful abusers in Mega Alakazam, Mega Metagross, Latios etc. But not right now lmfao. Tapu Lele is a very healthy presence in a Toxapex and random bulky mon infested meta and will relieve of all the priority abuse seen in previous gens.

And fyi, stall gained a lot of ridiculous additions that makes your stall is unviable statement a huge fucking joke. TOXAPEX, Tapu Bulu, Celesteela, Buzzwole aka the 107/139/53 bulky thing with Roost and a fucking 139 attack stat, Aurora Veil and fucking buffed up Dugtrio. With Dugtrio, the Goth STall ABR cancer garbage is likely to come back since Sash Screech dug can easily get rid of Manaphy, M Hera, Clef, M garde and your motherfucking Tapu Lele so quit complaining. Heck, it's CB Weavile's pursuit trap bait. Pheromosa and Mega Sableye are the things that needs to go right now. I'm expecting Hoopa/Land-I to stay so we dont end up in a fat mon spam shitfest like late XY.

 

[pubby]

Tapu Lele wrecks offensive teams too. Perhaps even more so than stall.

Tapu Lele is 100% managable without much effort.

I don't know what your definition of manageable is but if you have a list of counters that make Lele easy then please post it. CB Weavile is far from the perfect counter as it can't switch-in risking a moonblast and pursuit isn't a kill without hazard damage. And if you do get a kill your opponent still has momentum as you're choice-locked into a 40 BP move.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

how is tapu not broken for 2 OKing the whole tier with specs(1 set covers everything it needs) but pheromosa is broken instead with a number of checks like toxapex, mega sableye, ferrthorn buzzwole, steel flying pokes, mega scizor, marowak. u-turn spam hurts bad but generally there's a decent switch in to most of it's options to scout.

honestly mega sableye got nerfed this gen losing prankster pre-mega evolving, burn nerf, toxapex and fairies that tear it's throat out super fast.

even shiinotic's spab moonblast can tear trough it quick enough, or random Z-move lures.

Lele is likely the most broken thing in the tier right now and really aids pheromosa with psychic terrain


wait how does vested Tartar do pursuit trapping tapu lele?