Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Jajoken]

It helps that Bug + Fighting is a garbage STAB combo that gets walled by no fewer than 4 mono-types. Coverage helps but it's no Deoxys in that department. 9/10 times it goes for U-turn anyway so basically it's just a much more OU-viable Mega Beedrill with more waifu potential.

I was all for a quick ban before, but now I'm not even sure it's better than Hoopa-U.

 

[heavylobster43]

In general Phero seems overshadowed right now compared to Genesect and Greninja. Generic offense nowadays basically seems to be Genesect + Koko volturn into Battle Bond Ninja to pick off weakened stuff and then clean up lategame. Genesect has demonstrated once again its metagame-warping powers and should be the next quickban, as it's simply too versatile, with the stats, ability, and movepool to run a number of lethal sets, and unlike Phero, it has the bulk with its typing to switch into resisted hits and doesn't automatically die to any decent priority. We can't really evaluate Phero properly right now because there's an even better mon dominating the meta who performs a similar role while being tankier and more versatile.

 

[JSND]

IMO Phero is still busted, its just that its actually less threatening than all the "Former Ubers" including the new Ash Greninja

 

[pika pal]

I personally think that Pheromosa MAY (unlikely but possibly) not be broken once we've dealt with some other obvious problems like Genesect, but in a metagame with stuff like that running around Pheromosa is essentially another damning gear in the machine. Pheromosa's Bug/Fighting STAB combo isn't very good but oddly enough Bug's not a hard type to "double down" on offensively since with how common is I notice it's often rolled into other checks (ergo very little is running something particularly to check bugs). Pheromosa and Genesect are pretty strong on neutral targets, and since their Bug STAB is usually U-Turn the resist doesn't hinder them since they hit hard on many targets and generate momentum on practically everything. Part of the Pheromosa hype was new toy syndrome, but I still think it's also way too effective as a sidekick to Genesect as a momentum machine, and thus is not going to be healthy until we address that obvious headache.

I don't necessarily expect Pheromosa to be outright healthy, but I'd be willing to give it the benefit of a Suspect (first thing) once Genesect is gone again. I honestly don't know why this thing keeps getting retested when there's nothing to suggest it getting worse as a free momentum machine.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

In general Phero seems overshadowed right now compared to Genesect and Greninja. Generic offense nowadays basically seems to be Genesect + Koko volturn into Battle Bond Ninja to pick off weakened stuff and then clean up lategame. Genesect has demonstrated once again its metagame-warping powers and should be the next quickban, as it's simply too versatile, with the stats, ability, and movepool to run a number of lethal sets, and unlike Phero, it has the bulk with its typing to switch into resisted hits and doesn't automatically die to any decent priority. We can't really evaluate Phero properly right now because there's an even better mon dominating the meta who performs a similar role while being tankier and more versatile.

I think Lele has more metagame warping powers. One argument for banning Genesect is that it is too versatile, and that it could run Expert Belt sets to destroy more balanced teams. The efficacy of the Expert Belt set relies on the efficacy of the Scarf set since the Expert Belt can catch your opponent off guard expecting Genesect to be locked into one of its coverage moves.

While Lele doesn't have as good of the coverage moves that Genesect does or Download, Hidden Power Fire and Thunderbolt could catch some of its checks off guard too.

252+ SpA Expert Belt Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 269-317 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Celesteela: 204-240 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I use Scarf Genesect as a means of checking Lele. I looked at the Speed tiers and a fully invested Pheromosa does not outspeed a fully invested Scarf Lele. I would use Scizor, but it runs the risk of being caught off guard by or it simply cannot deal with a potential Life Orb set.

I think the popularity of Tapu Lele somewhat makes the game less pleasant for Genesect since many of its checks are steel type. Some steel types resist U-Turn, so using it would not be as simple. Celesteela and Ferrothorn can use protect to scout. Alola-Marowak is an additional counter for it that can be run for other runs besides checking Genesect. Toxapex and Tapu Fini are nice checks too (especially if Toxapex runs Baneful Bunker) and if Genesect doesn't run Thunderbolt.

I suppose Genesect could be more effective if its user has some bulky pivots, so the user could have more liberty to use the coverage moves to force things out. If the opponent switches out when Genesect uses its coverage, you have a pivot to switch into their switch in.

 

[nameless90]

Pheromosa may seem not broken at a first glance due to some things:
(1) Its Bug STAB finds a lot of 4x resists even without much efferts when teambuilding and many Ghosts running around, that make unhealthy using HJK carelessly;
(2) Poor bulk;
(3) This ultra-creature can't really OHKO targets from full HP.

But...you have to keep in mind that we are talking about a monster that:
(1) Outspeeds naturally many pokemons including some slower Scarfers. This is huge on monsters with U-turn;
(2) doesn't have to kill pokemons from full health. It is a fast cleaner, which can't be outsped unless with priority moves. It also tanks some priority moves;
(3) depending on the EVs and the nature chosen, it can gain a Spe boost (thus making this thing impossible to outspeed without priority) or an Atk boost or a SpA boost (with a LO the damage output really goes out of control this way).

The fact that Genesect is clearly more broken than Pheromosa is because of the extra bulk, plus the good defensive typing of the former pokemon allows it to set-up or/and clean more consistently throughout the match. So, I expect Genesect to be banned first, followed soon by both Pheromosa and Greninjas. These powerful three U-turners are really too much for the OU environment.

 

[Machi]

Personally I lean eitherway with Pheromosa, but admittedly I do prefer to err more onto the side of banning. That said, I think the biggest challenge with evaluating Pheromosa is that she has more or less received a trial by public opinion, you just check online and broken or UBER are pretty much synonymous to any key words that crop up. So much so that I do feel if this went through a suspect test it seems to me she'd be kicked out because she had already been labelled as broken by public opinion.

That said I am still convinced she more or less eats offensive teams for breakfast, to the point that yes it is arguably very close to outright invalidating it too easily once she whittles down whatever checks the team may have. However, I think part of the problem that offensive teams face when dealing with her is that while she is a prime candidate for easy pickings with priority noticeably with the existence of Lele we've more or less taken a step back in dealing with speedy threats / speed control with priority taking a hit. So I would be a bit more interested in looking how she performs in a meta wherein priority is more prevalent so that her speed boosts / speed advantage is not as overwhelming to offensive teams. I say this because in the games I do play wherein the other team is able to fire off their priority, most common ones I've dealt with is BP from Mega Metagross and Extreme Speed from Genesect, I suddenly found Pheromosa cornered more often than I was comfortable with.

I only focus on offensive teams because when I use Phero against stall teams she does struggle more, as they naturally carry multiple checks that she can't outright brute force against.

 

[Mikael]

From what i can see, only genesect is being justifiable as a quick ban pokemon. What was the argument of dropping this thing, again? But as far as now, people may be overreacting on the new toys, especially tapu lele, cause i'm not seeing that much on strong arguments to factor in a quick ban or even a suspect test on many of these things.

 

[lowborn]

Cresselia @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 220 SpD
Nature: Calm

- Lunar Dance
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Moonlight

One set I'd like to draw attention to is dual screens Cresselia. Right now, the only reliable switch-ins to Tapu Lele are Poke's like Celesteela, Metagross, and bulky steels and psychics. Cresselia fills a sweet niche of switching into Specs Psychic, Psyshock, Moonblast and Non-Specs Shadow Ball from Tapu Lele and getting free screens up for the team while healing off the damage. Other psychic types like Necrozma can't do this, due to their lack of special bulk. Due to how prevelant Lele is on the ladder and the complete disappearance of Pursuit from the metagame, this is real easy to abuse.

 

[TheMohZone]

View attachment 75531

Cresselia @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 220 SpD
Nature: Calm

- Lunar Dance
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Moonlight

One set I'd like to draw attention to is dual screens Cresselia. Right now, the only reliable switch-ins to Tapu Lele are Poke's like Celesteela, Metagross, and bulky steels and psychics. Cresselia fills a sweet niche of switching into Specs Psychic, Psyshock, Moonblast and Non-Specs Shadow Ball from Tapu Lele and getting free screens up for the team while healing off the damage. Other psychic types like Necrozma can't do this, due to their lack of special bulk. Due to how prevelant Lele is on the ladder and the complete disappearance of Pursuit from the metagame, this is real easy to abuse.

Same problem as always with Cress. yes it doesn't die, but it doesn't pressure the opponents team in anyway, like most walls do with Status or decently powerful attacking moves. Its taunt bait and set up bait. And in a meta full of U-Turn, her typing is ass.



Speaking of which, on Pheremosa. Yes Genesect is clearly better but no mon should be able to eat a play style the way Pheremosa and Protean Greninja eat Offence. Is that not the case for Hoopa-U to go back to ubers, because it eats stall?

Its not quickban worthy the way we all thought it would be, but it should most certainly be suspected down the line, pretty quickly. Maybe deal with the Greninjas First, possibly Hoopa because they are known offenders? and Genesect should be quickbanned why was it even brought down? Nothings ever going to stop it from doing its job.

 

[The Hallows]

Venomoth @ Buginium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb

Ok, so i've been using this venomoth set, and its actually ridiculous, the best set i've used so far in gen 7.
People like to laugh when i say venomoth is an absolute monster but this set destroys its would be counters with savage spin out.

Calcs:
+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-out vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 150-176 (44.9 - 52.6%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-out vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Scizor-Mega: 274-324 (79.8 - 94.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-out vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 156-186 (40.4 - 48.1%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

These calcs show the raw power of savage spin out in tandem with tinted lens.
I use sleep powder as getting venomoth free turns can be somewhat troublesome and this remedies that and gives you a free opportunity to get a quiver dance off if you hit.

I call it Hallowmoth.
have fun

 

[nameless90]

I say this because in the games I do play wherein the other team is able to fire off their priority, most common ones I've dealt with is BP from Mega Metagross and Extreme Speed from Genesect, I suddenly found Pheromosa cornered more often than I was comfortable with.

I'd like to underline that you find Pheromosa cornered only by things more broken than her. I told about Genesect above, but even Mega Metagross is suspect-worthy with the new Spe mechanic for Mega pokemons. "Starting" with 110 base Spe on turn 1 is really huge with that bulk.

 

[HailFall]

it would take a literal miracle for pheromosa to not be considered busted in the end lmfao. it still basically invalidates offenses not running roost buzzwole and even if youre running priority youre basically losing a mon every time you let phero in. it definitely doesnt have a healthy presence in the metagame, even if its not impossible to handle for slower teams.

 

[Machi]

I'd like to underline that you find Pheromosa cornered only by things more broken than her. I told about Genesect above, but even Mega Metagross is suspect-worthy with the new Spe mechanic for Mega pokemons. "Starting" with 110 base Spe on turn 1 is really huge with that bulk.

I find her cornered by these mons on the basis of priority, otherwise if I have psychic terrain in play I find them significantly less threatening to deal with. Course there is a lot of other factors to consider but the only thing to emphasize really is how much priority can give you more breathing room in dealing with her, assuming you're using an offensive team. Otherwise, I think you're shifting the goal post from what I've written, since for instance that 110 base Spe is kinda moot when I'm focusing solely on priority here etc.

Of course there is something to be said when your main sources of priority are significantly lessened, and can be counted mostly on suspect worthy mons. But that is a whole other can of worms that I think wouldn't answer the question being posed by the above poster.

 

[Twilightphoenix10]

Phero should be suspected, however I don't think that she will be banned...at least not the first time around anyway. The things working against her (or in her favor depending on how you see it) are that she has a limited move pool, can be countered by bulky fire types like Arcanine and her frail defenses that can be countered using priority. Granted Priority is useless if psychic terrain is up. Bulky water types may also be able to counter her, likely Toxipex since its got so much physical bulk, cna heal its self and poison her on the switch. Ghost types make it risky to use HJK so its not as big a threat if you have this. Her special sets I don't see nearly as much, but they are a whole different beast to deal with and generally seen as not as good going by the prevalence of her physical sets.

Genesect just punches holes in everything and is way to versitile, its basically the same argument for banning Ageslash repackaged. Bulky mon with a great move pool that can counter and punch holes in every team, can't be trapped, and has a slew of resistances, not to mention keeping the momentum in your favor. Its just freaking broken.

Lele I have a feeling will get suspected, but I doubt that she will get banned because even though she can be a monster to deal with, she can be dealt with, and there are other terrain setters that can be used to swap the terrain type.

I'm on the fence about Greninja though. It can be troublsome, but I have a hard time justifying it being banned since there are ways to counter it and it isn't over centralizing. Yes it makes up a devestating core with Genesect, Phero, and Koko, but that isn't really a good reason to ban it (yet). SR is still a thing, Lele can counter it if it is Battle Bond since it doesn't get access to gunk shot, Bulky special walls like Celestela and Alomola can counter it for days to. Protean Greninja on the other hand is a bit more difficult to deal with and should be suspected. I do not think that both should be allowed in the OU tier though because the mind games would be outragous.

 

[Ema Skye]

Phero warrants a suspect but I'm on the fence on what I'd vote.

Offense struggles with Phero but Phero also struggles against offense, as Phero usually can't get in against offense except after a KO. Provided your team isn't terribly weak to High Jump Kick, as a good selection of mons can take a single HJK and retaliate. It's something that needs to be considered when you build. Phero also is a total non-threat against balance, bulky offense and stall.

That said, there comes a point where that stifles teambuilding. I personally haven't bothered with non-Scarf Hoopa-U because it's just an open invitation for Pheromosa to come in and wreck my team.

Re: Greninja, I feel like Protean warrants a test but I'm not sure about Battle Bond. Virtually any bulky water can stop the transformation, and Battle Bond is sorely lacking in coverage. Of course, Ash-Greninja can wreck havoc when its checks are eliminated and it transforms, but isn't that true with any sweeper when its checks are gone.

Re: Lele, I think Lele definitely warrants a test. She removes the usual way of checking HO threats (priority) and is, honestly, a substantial part of the reason Pheromosa is getting so much attention right now. Not to mention its fearsome wallbreaking capacity, as I haven't found many Mons that can take a specs Psychic.

As a final note, I feel like Metagrossite warrants one this time thanks to the speed buff. With how close the result was last time, I'd be curious to see the outcome this time.

 

[pika pal]

The thing about Pheromosa is that she's a cleaner that doesn't necessarily have to wait until lategame to start cleaning. Besides acceptable power at the outset, you need a Revenge Killer that can consistently threaten her out, because a single Beast Boost might be all it takes for a Pheromosa to run rampant on your team. It makes saccing a mon against Pheromosa a risky-at-best venture to try and regain momentum with the free switch, since the beast boost it gains just makes it harder to respond to. Maybe this problem is primarily for offensive teams, but I think strangling an entire playstyle on its own is something to be considered.

Protean Greninja I don't think is in any better (as in, more healthy) a place than last gen, as the only real check it gained is Tapu Koko, while several other things that debuted (like the other Tapus) aren't necessarily calling for new coverage. And top that off with the mindgames it plays now that Battle Bond is a thing (less controlling but still viable and considerable), Greninja's become an even bigger guessing game out of hell.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's funny, we never would have gotten to this point if the council hadn't made the (right) call not to hastily quickban Pheromosa. I think people underestimate just how damn resilient our playerbase is.

The first suspect test should definitely be interesting.

 

[Colonel M]

I've been more in the camp that Genesect is more broken than Pheromosa in most cases, but Pheromosa deserves a real test and not a quickban.

For what it's worth bulkier teams by far have an easier time handling Pheromosa. Having more answers because you're not relying so much on momentum really helps. It is an awkward world for Hyper Offense sometimes, though, but I also feel that Hyper Offense have answers - they just have to play the game more carefully if their answers rely on methods such as sacking. Which, ultimately, is what makes Phero difficult. Priority moves definitely help, but Tapu Lele has made priority moves less reliable - hence why a lot more people see Pheromosa threatening than, say, Genesect.

Genesect's unpredictability is a much bigger threat than Pheromosa, and I feel Phero is only really strong because of how Hyper Offense answers to most threats like her and Tapu Lele tapping into one of those answers.

I stand test order probably should be Genesect > Phero >= Tapu Lele. I think Lele is pretty obnoxious but it does have some things that make it a bit more easier to manage in comparison to the other two. But, this is just my opinion.

As for Metagross it's a strong Pokemon but not really that Suspect worthy IMO. On that note I've been hella tempted to try Agility Mega Metagross though just to keep a sweep going. One thing that helps Mega Meta is the insane synergy with Lele and Bulu to an extent and the Mega buff helping it. Mysbe suspect but definitely not right now.

 

[Ropeburn]

Frankly, I think Genesect is a broken mon to the core. Genesect has no true "counter". Of course, you could say something like Heatran is a counter, but realistically when can you get it in for free without Genesect just U-turn'ing out into their Landorus-T, Dugtrio, or Garchomp, or etc? That's the thing about Genesect- the sheer amount of momentum it swings in your favor for little to no cost for the user is enormous. Obviously there are other pokemon that can do this, but none exhibit the same versatility as Genesect does. It hits hard on either spectrum, has access to priority, setup, and free Download boosts on switch-in.

It's just an incredibly overwhelming pokemon every time it drops. You literally have no idea what Genesect is going to do unless you've seen the team before. The thing is just disgustingly strong, and it's a huge problem to the health of the meta. Honestly, this exact thing happens every single time a new generation rotates around, and I'm kind of sick of the purple piece of shit and the process of disinfecting the meta of it every time. I really hope that the guys in charge of banlists every new generation put it in the same pile as Deoxys, because I'm not convinced it will ever been a balanced mon, based on previous trends. (Sorry if that comes off as rude, but Genesect is literally one of the worst cases of power creep in pokemon, I view it as a very unhealthy presence and I hate the effect it has on team building and tournament play. )

I'm not even going to mention Tapu Lele, because there's honestly nothing new to say on that thing. I also fully believe that Pheromosa and Greninja (Kinda split on if both or just protean) will warrant a suspect test in the future, but I think Genesect is a more pressing matter.

 

[Celticpride]

Locking because of the suspect test, look for a new thread at the conclusion of the test regardless of outcome.