Thanks. Yeah I scrapped decidueye but decided to also forgo spikes in favor of another coverage move.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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Has anyone tried Spdef Excadrill this gen? I know it's probably overshadow by some other mons but I've been able to do a ton of work with it, does well against most Xurkitree on the ladder, Tapu Koko, Lele (usually) and it just takes a surprisingly amount of hits from a bunch of shit.
Really like it.
Really like it.
I don't agree with that at all. Lando and Chomp are good, but they have weaknesses. Zygarde is weaker than both, yeah, but Thousand Arrows is worth it. Landorus lacks a reliable, spammable move, and has to choose between Knock Off, U-turn, and Stone Edge. Supersonic Skystrike is good, but single-use and incompatible with Scarf. It doesn't fill the same role as Zygarde and Garchomp as a scarfer.
It should go without saying that Choice-locked Earthquake is risky in the current meta. You have Celesteela, Tapu Bulu, Mantine, and a host of other Earthquake-immune mons running around. Grassy Terrain can also protect Bulu's teammates, and suddenly Garchomp can lose the 1v1 to Marowak. A well-played Celesteela is usually one of the last mons on a team to go down, and losing a game because you have a Scarf Garchomp vs. Celesteela and Tapu Fini, i.e. you can't sweep with one move because of immunities, is a serious liability that you're glossing over.
Zygarde completely ignores all of that. It doesn't care that Celesteela is immune to Earthquake. It isn't stopped by Tapu Bulu's Grassy Terrain. It doesn't give Rotom-W free momentum. Zygarde is also quite bulky, and Extremespeed is handy, despite its low power.
They both have their benefits. Zygarde handles defensive mons better, while Chomp can outspeed Zard X and has a better matchup with offense, in some cases. One isn't strictly better than the other.
I was watching an OU battle between ABR and doughboy and dough was using spdef exca and took a protean hydro pump with 9% left, so I think it's legit lol.
Taking on every electric type, and being able to survive hits people expect to kill it, definitely has a solid niche in the current meta
everything you just said is accomplished by dd or coil zygarde. you also just contradicted yourself multiple times since every bad thing you mentioned about scarf garchomp also applies to scarf zygarde.
the truth is zygarde is weak as hell so thousand arrows can't revenge kill shit. yes, thousand arrows is good, but not when it's unboosted. you say zygarde can beat tapu bulu with sludge wave but garchomp runs poison jab which does the same thing but hits harder. plus it has fire coverage to hit scizor. whenever i use scarf garchomp, i use fire blast / earthquake / dragon claw / poison jab which is the best set for it as a scarf user, atleast in my opinion.
scarf landorus-t doesn't have a reliable spammable move? you realize that this thing clicks knock off or u-turn more than half the time, which is better than scarf zygarde's thousand arrows that can't even revenge kill a charizardx lel. dd and coil sets accomplish everything scarf zygarde does but better. also, the last line of your post:
._.
tl;dr scarf zygarde is a shitty set and makes verlisify look good
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Can we take a moment to appreciate how amazing is bulky volcarona right now?
Volcarona @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 196 Def / 72 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Roost
EV: Max bulk plus enough speed to outspeed max speed heatran.
With talon gone and t wave nerf Volcarona is suddenly looking like top thread, maybe even S rank mon. Now prankster thundurus or klefki don't really stop you becaues you keep clicking that quiver dance and getting more and more speed. Your only counters are zard, heatran (toxic or maga+taunt), and alona marowack. But beside that you set up almost on everything. Even threads like pheromosa can't really touch you. Here are two replays showing how ridiculous this mon is.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-500919805
Volcarona 1v1 rain dance+tg manaphy.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-500186248
Twave is not a prolbem.
Sorry for crappy team but replays clearly shows what's goin' on
Volcarona @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 196 Def / 72 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Roost
EV: Max bulk plus enough speed to outspeed max speed heatran.
With talon gone and t wave nerf Volcarona is suddenly looking like top thread, maybe even S rank mon. Now prankster thundurus or klefki don't really stop you becaues you keep clicking that quiver dance and getting more and more speed. Your only counters are zard, heatran (toxic or maga+taunt), and alona marowack. But beside that you set up almost on everything. Even threads like pheromosa can't really touch you. Here are two replays showing how ridiculous this mon is.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-500919805
Volcarona 1v1 rain dance+tg manaphy.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-500186248
Twave is not a prolbem.
Sorry for crappy team but replays clearly shows what's goin' on
For the first game, why didn't you use Tail Glow the second you saw Surf doing <56%? You'd probably still lose due to Giga Drain + Revenge Killer (assuming he had quiver danced to be faster than you), but you would have been able to kill the Volcarona. I think the game was lost long before the moth appeared.
For the second game, your team just lacked any way to hit Volcarona hard enough after a Quiver Dance. Maybe Kyurem-B if you hit it with a strong enough physical move, but I don't know if he could take the repeated Fiery Dances, especially at +1 or more.
Regardless, I do think Volcarona is pretty strong as many popular mons are weak to its STABs, can't punch through Quiver Dance + Roost or can't hit hard enough to kill it even if they outspeed (Pheromosa can't do much, for example).
Also, hello, smogon. Haven't posted here since 5th gen's weather bonanza.
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My temam is that one with volcarona ;>
If I would giga drain on turn that he tg he would lost. It kinda was missplay kinda wasn't. However I wanted to show off fact, that volcarona at +2 lived +3 surf. I was shocked.
Nice thing about volcarona is that ot hasn't that much strong counters. There is tyranitar, heatran, marowack, but beside that not much else. With wonderful ability like flame body it can set up on strong physical attackers like dragonite, or garochomp.
God-Jamvad was right. This mon is a future.
The TG was a risk worth taking since it was his only chance at that point and you probably would not want to risk Giga Drain not healing enough to survive a Surf and then getting counter-swept by Manaphy.
Anyway, you can definitely just wear down Heatran and Marowak and just drop in the moth to set up. None of the Tapus can kill you very easily (Maybe Koko? He might hit hard enough with Wild Charge if it's a physical variant), Pheromosa can't really revenge kill you, Celesteela melts, Genesect gets burnt to a crisp, etc.
Seems like a pretty solid mon right now. I'm currently playing Rain, but I might give it a whirl later (actually, a Hurricane set sounds fun).
I saw some comments on Spedef Drill and wanted to add to that.
Right now strong electrics are hard to deal with for a lot of teams. Koko is obviously solid, Xurk is okay but can really pressure slow builds, Mag is everywhere because of Celesteela, etc. The best answers to them right now are Spedef Drill and Alolan Marowak since neither of them are shafted by common coverage options and both can work in offense/bulky offense, which is clearly the best playstyle at the moment.
I look at it this way:
Drill:
+solid bulk
+resists psychic (lele!), rock, fairy, poison immunity
+Rapid Spin
+gets rocks up reliably, even vs Mega Sab
+Rotom can't switch in easily for fear of EQ
+Lefties recovery
+resists Stealth Rock
+can run Toxic to deal with Mantine, Quag, etc.
-less offensive presence
-Lando-T walls it and keeps rocks up vs it
-not a reliable Pheromosa answer
-neutered by burn
-Celesteela and Skarm are hard counters
Wak:
+bulky
+resists grass, ice, fairy, fire, fighting immunity
+access to rocks
+Wisp helps against checks
+hits very hard even uninvested due to Thicc Club
+counters Pheromosa and can switch into Genesect
+coverage with Flare Blitz/Shadow Bone/EQ or Bonemarang is solid
+can't be burned
+can be used on Trick Room teams
-Thick Club means it can't get Leftover recovery, but if it holds Lefties it's noticeably weak
-weak to Stealth Rock
-dislikes poison/toxic
-can't handle psychic spam (though they can't switch in)
-walled by Rotom
-slow
They both bring a lot to the table in terms of role compression (which is everything nowadays) and are good in this meta as a result. To me, Wak is more splashable, but it really depends on the team. I'd recommend that people try both and play around with sets more, as the meta is still very young and I'd love to see some innovative takes on these two.
Edit
volx757 Yes, both are immune to electric attacks; I took that as a given and did not list it for that reason. As for Fire Punch>Flare Blitz, I've seen both and yes, they each have their ups and downs. The important thing is that Wak gets decent options for fire STAB. Cool EV spread btw.
Monkey Smurf Yes, the standard spread is 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpD with a Careful nature. You can try that or the set p2 suggested and see which you prefer.
Right now strong electrics are hard to deal with for a lot of teams. Koko is obviously solid, Xurk is okay but can really pressure slow builds, Mag is everywhere because of Celesteela, etc. The best answers to them right now are Spedef Drill and Alolan Marowak since neither of them are shafted by common coverage options and both can work in offense/bulky offense, which is clearly the best playstyle at the moment.
I look at it this way:
Drill:
+solid bulk
+resists psychic (lele!), rock, fairy, poison immunity
+Rapid Spin
+gets rocks up reliably, even vs Mega Sab
+Rotom can't switch in easily for fear of EQ
+Lefties recovery
+resists Stealth Rock
+can run Toxic to deal with Mantine, Quag, etc.
-less offensive presence
-Lando-T walls it and keeps rocks up vs it
-not a reliable Pheromosa answer
-neutered by burn
-Celesteela and Skarm are hard counters
Wak:
+bulky
+resists grass, ice, fairy, fire, fighting immunity
+access to rocks
+Wisp helps against checks
+hits very hard even uninvested due to Thicc Club
+counters Pheromosa and can switch into Genesect
+coverage with Flare Blitz/Shadow Bone/EQ or Bonemarang is solid
+can't be burned
+can be used on Trick Room teams
-Thick Club means it can't get Leftover recovery, but if it holds Lefties it's noticeably weak
-weak to Stealth Rock
-dislikes poison/toxic
-can't handle psychic spam (though they can't switch in)
-walled by Rotom
-slow
They both bring a lot to the table in terms of role compression (which is everything nowadays) and are good in this meta as a result. To me, Wak is more splashable, but it really depends on the team. I'd recommend that people try both and play around with sets more, as the meta is still very young and I'd love to see some innovative takes on these two.
Edit
volx757 Yes, both are immune to electric attacks; I took that as a given and did not list it for that reason. As for Fire Punch>Flare Blitz, I've seen both and yes, they each have their ups and downs. The important thing is that Wak gets decent options for fire STAB. Cool EV spread btw.
Monkey Smurf Yes, the standard spread is 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpD with a Careful nature. You can try that or the set p2 suggested and see which you prefer.
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What's the EV spread for SpDef Excadrill? I'm looking to try it out. Is it just max HP / max SpDef with a Careful nature?
I assume cause you didn't mention electric immunity and you mention blitz that this would be rock-head alowak?
Lightning rod alowak brings a ton of utility to the table, by adding to the list of things he counters: tapu koko, alolan raichu, xerkitree, magnezone, in addition to being a momentum suck on the opponent by absorbing volt switches. Plus triple immunity is just hott.
I made note of this in the alowak thread, too, but I really think outside of situational uses where you need a certain ohko, fire punch is superior to blitz. As a tank, alowak is meant to eat some hits, and it's counter-intuitive to be chunking your own (very low) HP, which in combination with rocks weakness, spikes/toxic, can very quickly put you in range to be KOd by one of the things your supposed to be eating. For example, blitz let's you ohko Celesteela, but, assuming rocks are up, you're left with like 30% HP, and you get KOd next time you come in (unless it's an elec attack, but they're all faster than you and will nab those last couple % with NVE coverage).
EVs I've been using are: 248HP/124+ATK/136SPE, which out-speeds celesteela, and basically is as tanky (off. and def.) as possible outside of that.
IMO alo is the better choice for this role right now. They both serve as switch-ins to top-tier threats, but outside of hazard control (not trying to downplay the importance or relevance of hazard control) i think exca is outclassed in this regard, as it doesn't threaten the switchin (probably a landot), whereas alowak threatens the large majority of the tier with it's stabs.
i think this drill set is better than spdef
Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
alternative evs for outspeeding ada lucario and by extension, heatran and friends.
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
alternative evs for mamo and other 80s, also hits a jump point in speed:
EVs: 252 Atk / 64 SpD / 192 Spe
theres no things like mega diancie / gard running around which you kinda desperately needed the bulk for last gen when running spdef driller and it doesn't even need investment to reliably take on things like koko, while still retaining the useful speed that jolly drill offers such as outspeeding tran and bulu, which kinda both dick on spdef drill. this also brings hazard removal which a ton of teams appreciate, freeing up defog on things like latios / fini, meaning they can opt for more effective sets like specs/scarf and taunt+nm, respectively.
Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
alternative evs for outspeeding ada lucario and by extension, heatran and friends.
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
alternative evs for mamo and other 80s, also hits a jump point in speed:
EVs: 252 Atk / 64 SpD / 192 Spe
theres no things like mega diancie / gard running around which you kinda desperately needed the bulk for last gen when running spdef driller and it doesn't even need investment to reliably take on things like koko, while still retaining the useful speed that jolly drill offers such as outspeeding tran and bulu, which kinda both dick on spdef drill. this also brings hazard removal which a ton of teams appreciate, freeing up defog on things like latios / fini, meaning they can opt for more effective sets like specs/scarf and taunt+nm, respectively.
![GH[O]ST](/forums/data/avatars/m/69/69331.jpg?1413405016){kind=avatar}
While there is no M-diancie/gardevoir at the moment you still have things like the Tapu Lele, the popular mega alakazam, Hoopa U, Genesect, and other special attackers.
I agree that the speed is important, but I believe you're wasting Excadrill's very serviceable bulk if you're just going for a standard offensive spread.
There is merit in Jolly max speed + max HP.
Also Toxic should be considered on any Mold Breaker set. At least you can bother the Landos, the M-Sabeleyes, etc.
Thoughts about Keldeo? It's not looking that hot this gen with all the Tapus harassing it, al well as Toxapex walling it, and the many electrics this gen.
A-Ninetales is proven itself to be really useful in OU. Between providing Aurora Veil and Snow Warning negating rain most rain teams (Freeze-Dry annihilates both Kingra and Pelipper), it's fast enough to deal some damage too.
Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Light Clay
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA/ 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Moonblast
- Nasty Plot / Hidden Power Fire / Blizzard / Toxic / Grudge
It hates steels; Magnezone as a partner is a good idea.
It's one great support mon for sure.
A-Ninetales is proven itself to be really useful in OU. Between providing Aurora Veil and Snow Warning negating rain most rain teams (Freeze-Dry annihilates both Kingra and Pelipper), it's fast enough to deal some damage too.
Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Light Clay
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA/ 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Moonblast
- Nasty Plot / Hidden Power Fire / Blizzard / Toxic / Grudge
It hates steels; Magnezone as a partner is a good idea.
It's one great support mon for sure.
a-ninetails plays differently. azelf lead is a suicide lead, whereas ninetails can often do it's setup 2-3 times a match, not to mention it only takes 1 turn for it to setup, which is huge cause setting duel screens and also rocks and then blowing up takes 4 turns, in which time your opponent has done 4 turns worth of shit too. maybe they took 1 turn to set up veil, went to mgyara, danced twice and 6-0d you..
suicide leads should only be considered on real HO.
Yeah, Ninetales puts in a ton of work on offense. Mega Metagross behind Aurora Veil can sweep teams (or at least clean up), and dual screens in general can turn matchups in your favour. Setting both screens in a single turn is incredibly good, and Ninetales' can safely do it multiple times in a match. It can even tank hits itself; it's surprised me by surviving attacks that I was sure would KO it. Stopping Rain teams is just icing on the cake. It brings a ton of utility to offense, and I'd almost call it a staple.
are these two the only reliable electric counters?
Basically any ground/eletric/dragon/shednija can be an eletric check or counter based on a few things, scarf chomp is always amazing
They are the two most viable ones that resist/are neutral to hidden power ice and fairy coverage, so not technically the only ones, but I would run one of the two of them on 90% of my OU teams or at least the ones I feel need a switch in to electric offense
So basically yes I wouldnt call any other mons reliable due to either not resisting common coverage or being very niche in OU (i.e. Steelix, Shedinja, Goodra)
Hippowdon is also as sturdy an electric check as always, but it has little offensive presence and only really fits on offense builds (which are dominant right now) if they're built around sand. It works, but it's far less splashable, and frankly Wak and Drill have much less opportunity cost at the moment.
Choice Specs infiltration Chandelure is a deadly, deadly anti lead. It completely walls out Pheromosa, it beats Genesect, it's immune to Azelf explosion, and it shuts down any attempt to baton pass/substitute because no one wants to switch into it. It also hard counters substituting Buzzwole's who don't have EQ or sub instead of using it. It even has a 75% chance to one shot max HP Pelipper. Celesteela's gets destroyed in 1 hit by Fire Blast, but that's not a fun match up thanks to Leech seed, protect, and the fact that Chandelure is SR weak.
Definitely a cool and underrated mon, and yeah it does match up well vs many common leads. However, Sash Chomp/Dragonium Z Chomp are gaining popularity and shred Chandy with EQ. Likewise, Sash Lycanroc leads just click Stone Edge and kill.
The biggest issue with Chandelure right now is that Hoopa-Unbound exists as another crazy strong wallbreaker that can also bypass subs with Hyperspace Hole/Fury, but also isn't weak to rocks and can break Chansey. That said I'd love to see some replays with Chandelure since I think it can be a cool niche mon.
PSA Hoopa-U is really good; people should use it more.
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