The current ruling is that your opponent cannot order for 30 minutes after you post, but your actions are automatically locked after that time period. People seem upset about this, so let's see if we can find a better way to do this. This is a discussion about what the free-edit period should be, not what it already is, how long it is, or if it should exist. Try not to take the discussion down any of those paths.
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Action Locking
- Thread starter FMD
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The current ruling is that your opponent cannot order for 30 minutes after you post, but your actions are automatically locked after that time period. People seem upset about this, so let's see if we can find a better way to do this. This is a discussion about what the free-edit period should be, not what it already is, how long it is, or if it should exist. Try not to take the discussion down any of those paths.
I think it should be as is. The reason for auto-locking was because before auto-locking, people would have to post "LOCK" to save the ref from changing orders, as well as fairness between 1st and 2nd order.
The entire point of auto-locking is to prevent a need for that "LOCK" post, a need which would come back if we removed it.
One example that was said in the original discussion was: the ref starts reffing, stops for some reason (maybe sleep?), forgets the orders. 2nd order changes their orders overnight. The ref checks the orders again in the morning, and all of a sudden the ref is lost and has no idea what he's reffing.
And yes, that did happen to me. More than once.
Another principle that was brought up is the idea that you should finish thinking on your orders before posting. Instead of having to edit afterwards, order logic should have been thought through before the posting occurred. Encourages good orders, etc etc. Editing afterwards should just be to fix missed typos.
The entire point of auto-locking is to prevent a need for that "LOCK" post, a need which would come back if we removed it.
One example that was said in the original discussion was: the ref starts reffing, stops for some reason (maybe sleep?), forgets the orders. 2nd order changes their orders overnight. The ref checks the orders again in the morning, and all of a sudden the ref is lost and has no idea what he's reffing.
And yes, that did happen to me. More than once.
Another principle that was brought up is the idea that you should finish thinking on your orders before posting. Instead of having to edit afterwards, order logic should have been thought through before the posting occurred. Encourages good orders, etc etc. Editing afterwards should just be to fix missed typos.
its currently default 30mins but can be specified in arena stuff, just as a reminder to the world.
I think that the point of a "free-edit" period should primarily be to allow the person ordering first a chance to fix errors they notice in their orders. So that the person ordering second can't just post "LOCK" immediately after the first person orders, locking them into subpar orders (sidenote, this is a dick thing to to anyways). Ordering second is already so advantageous in this game; giving the first player this right helps to balance things slightly.
Going off of this principle, my main gripe with the current implementation of free-edit periods is that first person's orders are automatically locked after their free-edit period ends. That seems counter to what (I think) should be the point. If the second player really wants to lock orders (again, dick move unless you actually have orders ready, but whatever), they can do so as soon as they get the chance. But doing it automatically is unnecessarily strict and doesn't seem to help the game.
Except that "it encourages people to think more about their orders before posting." Which is maybe true to a degree (I don't think people will start making constant, A+ orders going first from this current policy, but I do think orders might improve a little), but it will also encourage players ordering first to take longer than they need to order. That's not a great tradeoff. Yes, people should think their orders through before posting. But people aren't perfect, that's the whole point of the free-edit period. If someone is taking forever to order second, why the hell should I not be allowed to edit my first-player orders after thefree-edit period (but within dq I guess)?
I'm not touching on the second person's "free-edit" period here. Maybe we should keep that as is for the sanity of the ref? I don't disagree with that portion of Fort's first post above.
Going off of this principle, my main gripe with the current implementation of free-edit periods is that first person's orders are automatically locked after their free-edit period ends. That seems counter to what (I think) should be the point. If the second player really wants to lock orders (again, dick move unless you actually have orders ready, but whatever), they can do so as soon as they get the chance. But doing it automatically is unnecessarily strict and doesn't seem to help the game.
Except that "it encourages people to think more about their orders before posting." Which is maybe true to a degree (I don't think people will start making constant, A+ orders going first from this current policy, but I do think orders might improve a little), but it will also encourage players ordering first to take longer than they need to order. That's not a great tradeoff. Yes, people should think their orders through before posting. But people aren't perfect, that's the whole point of the free-edit period. If someone is taking forever to order second, why the hell should I not be allowed to edit my first-player orders after thefree-edit period (but within dq I guess)?
I'm not touching on the second person's "free-edit" period here. Maybe we should keep that as is for the sanity of the ref? I don't disagree with that portion of Fort's first post above.
My opinion might not be the most valuable but I'd like to add my grain of salt here.
To expand on what EM said, I think we could just do a mix: let's say the free edit time is at 30 mins (may or may not change, that isn't the point). The player ordering first would have a minimum of 30 minutes to edit. Past that, it would be up to the second player: if he is ready to order (or just wants to be a dick), he has the freedom to post "Lock" and order. But if he doesn't post, the first player could still be able to edit his orders until "Lock" is posted.
(Dunno if I'm clear here)
This would allow people to lock orders past a certain point, but also, as EM said, to prevent people from taking longer than necessary to order.
In other words I guess I really like what EM said? I think I can speak for at least some part of the newer players when I say that seeing your orders posted and thinking them over reaaally helps when you're not familiar with subs and whatnot.
(If that was already discussed or I'm missing the point, my apologies)
To expand on what EM said, I think we could just do a mix: let's say the free edit time is at 30 mins (may or may not change, that isn't the point). The player ordering first would have a minimum of 30 minutes to edit. Past that, it would be up to the second player: if he is ready to order (or just wants to be a dick), he has the freedom to post "Lock" and order. But if he doesn't post, the first player could still be able to edit his orders until "Lock" is posted.
(Dunno if I'm clear here)
This would allow people to lock orders past a certain point, but also, as EM said, to prevent people from taking longer than necessary to order.
In other words I guess I really like what EM said? I think I can speak for at least some part of the newer players when I say that seeing your orders posted and thinking them over reaaally helps when you're not familiar with subs and whatnot.
(If that was already discussed or I'm missing the point, my apologies)
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While I can cede to your first 3 paragraphs (hidden inside the ellipses in my quote-tags above), I'm not quite sure on what you meant by the 4th, EM. Are you saying that 2nd-orderer can free-edit all the way until the referee "locks" or "finishes reffing", or that 2nd-orderer should be auto-locked after free-edit period? And does the 2nd-orderer have any free-edit period at all?
(just wanna make sure I get your message clear all the way, thanks)
idc, just saying it doesn't necessarily need to be treated the same way we treat first person orders. I was under the assumption that currently the same free-edit period implementation applied to both (does it? idk)
I guess my preference should be for the ref to post "lock" but idrc
I guess my preference should be for the ref to post "lock" but idrc
I'd be down for auto-locking after 30mins for 2nd order, and 1st order having minimum 30mins but free-edit till second order posts.
My major complaint was that it was painful as a ref.
My major complaint was that it was painful as a ref.
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I honestly say there shouldn't be any auto-locking. That's just annoying. I still stand by my point from all of these discussions, just remove the rule altogether. It was created because someone was dumb enough to inform their opponent of their hole in their orders. This game is already bureaucratic and slow enough and hard enough to order in as is, no need to add to that because someone was just being bad.
Your solution doesn't at all address problems with the ref being confused. Especially since you claim to dislike having "extra" posts in the thread.
I'm definitely in support of auto-locking after 2nd order, but don't really care about first order. I do suggest having a minimum of a few minutes to look over orders, but Smogon does have a preview function (that admittedly doesn't allow you to see previous posts).
Couldn't the ref just post to say "locking actions" and then edit in the reffing, or delete the lock post once the round has been reffed??
then what's the difference between that and auto-lock? The only difference really is that the ref has to do an extra thing imo
the ref could (and very well might) just post lock immediately second order posts, and then ref at his/her leisure. (which for the battlers is the same thing, and for the ref is having to go to the thread beforehand and having to make a usually-needless post in order to make absolutely sure he isn't confused later.)
Let me try to fiat this. Just once. I will quote what was quoted in the OP, with minor edits that adopt EM's idea, because I think it is sound.
Now to find out where I should make this official.
Over-dramatic, yeah. But I hope it drives home a point and an observation - that ASBers care about this as much as consumers care about consumer laws. AKA they know it's there, but they pretty much won't look it up until they feel offended to the point of needing to mete out judicial vengeance.fiat said:
Now to find out where I should make this official.
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