Kink
it's a thug life ¨̮
This is a thread aimed at the discussion of Z-Moves and their ubiquity, and whether or not this is a matter of concern. My hope is that we can assess, together, whether or not Aldaron's current tiering framework is prepared to handle the integration of Z-Moves into our official tiers.
If policy mods think this thread is too similar to this one, please feel free to merge, however I think there are merits to having this thread stand on its own.
At the end of this post, here are some of the questions I have that I'd really like people's opinions on:
We've had over a month with Gen 7 and there is a clear disparity in terms of how Z-Moves affect the viability of Pokemon compared to how we've examined the abilities of these Pokemon in previous generations. Already in UU Alpha (albeit an unofficial meta) we are seeing the centralizing forces of sets such as Z-Happy Hour Jirachi or Z-Belly Drum Azumarill completely overshadow their relative counterparts. Since we are close to our beta release, I have some concerns as to how Smogon plans to deal with "set overshadowing", which can drastically affect the way certain Pokemon are used and perceived in every tier.
The sheer amount of Z-Moves and possibilities will likely create a period of time in which we will discover new combination many months after our metas become official. Let me state that I have not yet spoken to my TLs about this, but considering this will affect every tier on the basis of Z-Move ubiquity, I felt PR was the most relevant platform for this discussion to take place. The following has me concerned: as UU approaches its beta period, and as OU becomes progressively more stable, I'm curious as to how we will adequately define Z-Moves in relation to Aldaron's tiering policies, particularly that of skill. Below I have included a slightly cleaner version of the "skill" metric. Under this, I will offer some questions that have arisen due to perceived ambiguity.
In regards to the above policies, here are some questions I have when Z-Moves are held up against this model:
If policy mods think this thread is too similar to this one, please feel free to merge, however I think there are merits to having this thread stand on its own.
At the end of this post, here are some of the questions I have that I'd really like people's opinions on:
1) Is Smogon's current policy adequately prepared to integrate Z-Moves into our tiering framework
2) By extension, are Z-Moves healthy, broken, or uncompetitive?
3) By extension, are Z-Moves sets broken compared to other relatively powerful sets in previous generations?
2) By extension, are Z-Moves healthy, broken, or uncompetitive?
3) By extension, are Z-Moves sets broken compared to other relatively powerful sets in previous generations?
We've had over a month with Gen 7 and there is a clear disparity in terms of how Z-Moves affect the viability of Pokemon compared to how we've examined the abilities of these Pokemon in previous generations. Already in UU Alpha (albeit an unofficial meta) we are seeing the centralizing forces of sets such as Z-Happy Hour Jirachi or Z-Belly Drum Azumarill completely overshadow their relative counterparts. Since we are close to our beta release, I have some concerns as to how Smogon plans to deal with "set overshadowing", which can drastically affect the way certain Pokemon are used and perceived in every tier.
The sheer amount of Z-Moves and possibilities will likely create a period of time in which we will discover new combination many months after our metas become official. Let me state that I have not yet spoken to my TLs about this, but considering this will affect every tier on the basis of Z-Move ubiquity, I felt PR was the most relevant platform for this discussion to take place. The following has me concerned: as UU approaches its beta period, and as OU becomes progressively more stable, I'm curious as to how we will adequately define Z-Moves in relation to Aldaron's tiering policies, particularly that of skill. Below I have included a slightly cleaner version of the "skill" metric. Under this, I will offer some questions that have arisen due to perceived ambiguity.
I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon
A.) Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
B.) Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
A.) Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
1.) Assessing threats - ability to recognize major threats in the metagame and identify how they both individually and in tandem deal with your team
a.) Involves having metagame knowledge through playing and observing
b.) Involves the ability to think beyond individual Pokemon threats and into the realm of threatening strategies and concepts
b.) Involves the ability to think beyond individual Pokemon threats and into the realm of threatening strategies and concepts
2.) Dealing with threats - ability to maximize the 6 Pokemon slots, 24 move slots, and 6 item slots to handle metagame threats
a.) Ability to recognize which slots are not serving maximum utility
b.) Ability to replace low efficiency slots with higher efficiency options
b.) Ability to replace low efficiency slots with higher efficiency options
3.) Building Towards a Strategy (or strategies) - ability to build a team that is "greater than the sum of the individual parts"
a.) Having the 6 Pokemon work together to cover weaknesses and emphasize strengths instead of just having 6 Pokemon with no cohesive strategy
* The most basic and common examples for covering weaknesses include combinations like CeleTran (Celebi and Heatran) or GyaraZone (Gyarados and Magnezone) in DPP
* One of the most basic and common example for emphasizing strengths includes a combination like DoubleDragon (using two Dragon Dancers to punch holes for each other).
b.) Obviously isn't limited to combinations or trios; can refer to overall team strategies (think BP chains before outlawed or simple stall cores that work to cover each other's flaws)
* The most basic and common examples for covering weaknesses include combinations like CeleTran (Celebi and Heatran) or GyaraZone (Gyarados and Magnezone) in DPP
* One of the most basic and common example for emphasizing strengths includes a combination like DoubleDragon (using two Dragon Dancers to punch holes for each other).
b.) Obviously isn't limited to combinations or trios; can refer to overall team strategies (think BP chains before outlawed or simple stall cores that work to cover each other's flaws)
4.) Creativity - ability to come up with unique strategies or sets to swing momentum in your favor
a.) This means being able to surprise the opponent with a unique set or strategy without losing on general utility (too much)
b.) Doesn't just mean creating new sets, but also being able to use existing sets in a creative manner
b.) Doesn't just mean creating new sets, but also being able to use existing sets in a creative manner
5.) Catering to Metagame / Opponents - ability to predict opponent trends, patterns, and tendencies
a.) Involves knowing the percentages of what you'll encounter on ladder and being able to build accordingly.
b.) Involves knowing your opponents in tournaments and take note of their common trends in building and prepare accordingly.
b.) Involves knowing your opponents in tournaments and take note of their common trends in building and prepare accordingly.
B.) Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
1.) Picking the Right Lead - ability to look at your team and your opponent's Pokemon and make an intelligent determination of what your win condition is and which Pokemon will best promote that in the beginning
2.) Recognizing the Win Condition - ability to look at your opponent's team in addition to the information gathered during a battle to recognize viable win conditions
3.) Picking the Right Move - ability to pick the best move in a discrete moment in time
2.) Recognizing the Win Condition - ability to look at your opponent's team in addition to the information gathered during a battle to recognize viable win conditions
3.) Picking the Right Move - ability to pick the best move in a discrete moment in time
a.) Encompasses ability to judge the opponent's potential moves
b.) Encompasses ability to choose between short and long term benefits and choose accordingly
4.) Smart Switching - ability to switch intelligently to swing momentum in your favorb.) Encompasses ability to choose between short and long term benefits and choose accordingly
a.) Encompasses the ability to predict an opponent's moves and switch for the best scenario
b.) Encompasses the ability to continuously switch (double or triple switching) if necessary
5.) Gathering Information and Making Assumptionsb.) Encompasses the ability to continuously switch (double or triple switching) if necessary
a.) The ability to predict or assume opponent sets in order to better plan a win condition
b.) The ability to to set probabilities for what the opponent has based on his actions in order to maximize predictions
6.) Long Term vs. Short Term Goalsb.) The ability to to set probabilities for what the opponent has based on his actions in order to maximize predictions
a.) The ability to weigh when to bring in a potential win condition
b.) The ability to judge whether an immediate benefit, such a revenge kill, is worth showing your hand or bringing out the win condition too early.
7.) Assessing Riskb.) The ability to judge whether an immediate benefit, such a revenge kill, is worth showing your hand or bringing out the win condition too early.
a.) Knowing when to sacrifice for a greater position later
b.) Knowing when and how to make a high risk, high reward move
8.) Probability Managementb.) Knowing when and how to make a high risk, high reward move
a.) The ability to take into account the numerous probability factors that are in the game, including accuracy, secondary effects, and critical hits, and consider the best strategy
b.) Knowing how to minimize the risk presenting by probability factors
9.) Predictionb.) Knowing how to minimize the risk presenting by probability factors
a.) The ability to take into account all of the opponent's potential actions, apply weights to them, and move accordingly
b.) The ability to double or triple switch based on opponent tendencies to move momentum back in your favor
b.) The ability to double or triple switch based on opponent tendencies to move momentum back in your favor
In regards to the above policies, here are some questions I have when Z-Moves are held up against this model:
- Assessing Threats: Does the ubiquity of Z-Moves stifle the process of acquiring substantial metagame knowledge for the first year or two of almost every meta?
- Dealing with threats: Does the ubiquity of Z-Moves make it too difficult to adequately prepare for the overwhelming amount of Z-Move combinations?
- Building Towards a Strategy (or strategies): Do Z-Moves focus too much on the individual part? For example, even if Azumarill ends up in UU, will Z-Belly Drum ever become too much of a centralizing focus that'll force the meta to adapt to Z-Moves as a whole? Should adapting to Z-Moves require the lack of using them, or the ubiquitous use of them? Am I making any sense here? Idk.
- Creativity: Will Z-Moves hinder the creative process by stifling the use of extremely popular sets? Why would anyone really run CM Jirachi anymore when Z-Happy Hour + Iron Head offers a far greater advantage in overall use?
- Catering to Metagame / Opponents: At what point does "preparing for overpowered Z-sets" become a hassle to the tournament scene? Is a skilled meta one where we have more options or one that caters more to the cartridge experience?
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