Salazzle Sig Item

Status
Not open for further replies.
Someoneelse

Someoneelse

Why am I here?
Please read through the discussion of Question 2 in State of the Game to get some background.

Salazzle receiving a signature item has been almost universally agreed upon in SotG, and there have been plenty of viable ideas for effects for it.

Questions to continue discussion:
  • Should Salazzle have a signature item? Is it necessary to give Salazzle a signature item for reasons of balance or consistency?
  • Should Salazzle have the same signature item as Vespiquen or a different item entirely?
  • What effects could Salazzle's signature item have if it is implemented? What aspects of the Pokemon can give it a use or niche in the metagame?
Possible suggestions for item's effects from SotG:
  • Damage reduction, such as Focus Band or Filter
  • Rank boosts to either SpA or both defenses
  • Increased BAP to STAB moves
  • Intimidate for SpA (à la Captivate)
  • Allow use of type commands without using an action
  • Increase damage from Poison inflicted by this Pokemon
  • Effects to Poison-based moves such as Venom Drench and Venoshock
I'll try to track discussion in the OP. Fire away!
 
Last edited:
Theoretically we should match Vespiquen, but that's a pain in the arse, and I honestly loathe how some items get overloaded in that way.

Favourite effects proposed were +SpA, +1 Def, +1 SpD, and the free STAB Commands. You could also play around with having all move inflict corrosion a la Acid/Acid Spray, but Salazzle is already blessed with Fire STAB so it's less of an issue.
 
In terms of what Salazzle needs competitively, it is fine offensively. As cool as auto-send out with its STABs is, or boosts to its most powerful moves, nothing stops the opponent from just spamming Earthquake and getting a ORKO. Any sort of Focus Band / Filter buff would be best, followed by buffing its stats, followed by lowering its opponents. I don't really care what we choose, but I urge people to consider that Salazzle needs defensive help much more than it needs offensive help.
 
Hai

I'm in the "let's give Salazzle flavour stuff" camp

After drawing comparisons with Royal Honey, Vespiquen's signature Item, I came up with:
  1. +1 Rank to SpAtk, in line with most (if not all) Signature Items boosting the highest non-Speed non-HP stat.
  2. An additional boost to Corrosion that allows all Poison-type attacks to automatically inflict -1 SpDef, taking on Acid's effect with Acid Spray's auto-affliction.
If we want to go deeper down the rabbit hole, there's the
For some reason, only females have been found. It creates a reverse harem of male Salandit that it lives with.
Filled with pheromones, its poisonous gas can be diluted to use in the production of luscious perfumes.
So the keyword vibes I'm getting are "only females", "luscious perfumes" and "reverse harem" (pretty sure the ladies agree on the last one). That, plus Salazzle's signature Corrosion ability, had me coming up with a few things:
  1. Some form of Rivalry. Maybe only the good half of it (a.k.a. Males automatically deal -2 BAP against Salazzle itself due to the amplified pheromones).
  2. Half of Captivate / Specially-oriented Intimidate sounds good, too.
  3. Salazzle automatically uses Attract once upon sendout? I'm suggesting this even if y'all would tie me to a stake and burn me for it.
So that's a LOT to add to the list in the OP. Hope it helps!

* * * * * * *​

I have a question though, that I think I raised in SotG before. How do we proceed with building (or not) a signature Item for Salazzle? Just the old "everybody pitches in with what they thinks is balanced", and then "Council votes on what they think to be balanced" process? I have not been involved in making new content for ASB before, so I don't know how creating new Items work. Perhaps Frosty or Texas or IAR or anyone who had shed some light in how Items like Jaw Fossil or Royal Honey were conceived and tweaked and balanced before release?
 
I'm on the boat that says Salazzle and Vespiquen should have the same item due to having the same evolution method. For reference, here's the current version:
Increases the Defense and Special Defense by one (1) rank. "Order" moves cost two (2) less energy to use and have their priority increased by one (1).
Click to expand...
The boost up to a decent 100/3/3 bulk would be greatly appreciated... at least when Ground moves aren't around... The Order move part, though, applies specifically to Vespiquen as no other Pokemon thusfar has access to Order moves (ignoring Sketch, obviously). As Bug and Flying have no commands, access to commands on send-out would be a fairly-great boon for Salazzle without modifying how the item works for Vespiquen. The readily-available boost in Acc will allow her to use a Modest nature (or possibly Mild/Rash to preserve Gunk Shot, but I'd rather Modest) for damage without having to worry about missing her Fire Blasts, while the bonus to poison chance allows her to more-easily poison targets with Sludge Bomb and granting her easier access to her strongest attack, poison-boosted Venoshock.
 
As much as I like the thoroughness of your thought, I'm against one aspect: the stats. Vespiquen currently is given +1 Def/+1 SpA because with RC that's what it would have gotten. Not to mention Vespiquen is actually a defensive Pokemon. Salazzle is an offensive Pokemon, and it's boons need to reflect that. With that in mind, it would mean that the text "Increase the Defense and Special Defense by one (1) rank." should go to "Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised." That way both mons retain their actual properties as well as the boost that Rare Candy would have given them both anyhow.
 
Helix Fossil: Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Weak Armor does not lower Defense when activated. Increases Special Attack by one (1) Rank.
Click to expand...
Root Fossil: Enhances Storm Drain to increase Special Attack by two (2) stages (adjusting the natural stage) when activated and to not redirect allies' attacks. Reduces the Energy Cost of HP Draining Attacks / Recovery Moves by one (1). Increases the healing done by Single-Burst Draining or Recovery moves (e.g. Giga Drain, Recover, Mega Drain, Absorb, Morning Sun) by 3hp and of Ingrain by 1hp. Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.
Click to expand...
Jaw Fossil: Boosts Strong Jaw's Effect by two (2) Base Attack Power. Increase accuracy on all moves by 10% (flat). Increases Special Defense by one (1) Rank.
Click to expand...
Lucky Punch: Guarantees all attacks score a critical hit. Increases Attack Rank by one (1).
Click to expand...
Oval Stone: Increases the Pokemon's Special Attack and Defense one (1) rank each.
Click to expand...
Armor Fossil: Increases the Pokemon's Attack by one (1) rank. Increases the pokemon's Weight Class by two (2). Sturdy limits damage caused to this pokemon by non-combo damaging moves to 20% of the holder's total hp on top of normal effects
Click to expand...
Skull Fossil: Sheer Force becomes Passive, and no longer removes the secondary effects from attacks. Increases Defense by one (1) Rank.
Click to expand...
Relic Crown: Boosts the Base Attack Power of Ancient Power by three (3) and of Rock Slide by one (1). Boosts Special Defense by one (1) rank. Increases STAB Base Attack Power bonus by one (1).
Click to expand...
Rampardos has 7 Atk and 2/2 defenses, but its item gives Def. Cradily has 3/3 offenses and 4/4 bulk, but its item gives Atk. Every Relic Crown Pokemon has SpDef at 2 when every other stat is 3 or higher. "It's what RC would give" is not the goal, it's the default. When a Pokemon has a flaw flaw in its stats, its signature items very frequently addresses that.
 
I must disagree with the assertion that "its signature items very frequently addresses that".
Moss Rock? Doesn't address Leafeon's Flaw.
Dubious Disc? Doesn't address Porygon2 or Porygon-Z's flaws.
Electirizer? Doesn't address Electabuzz or Electivire's flaws. It complements its strengths.
Fairy Tech? Doesn't address Sylveon's flaws. It expands on its Strengths, though.
Full Incense? I thought Munchlax and Snorlax had pretty good Attack and Special Defense. I guess I was wrong.
Protector? Rhydon and Rhyperior are lacking in Defensive stats?
The Cloaks? They buff the Wormadam's strengths, not their flaws.

You can't look at a small handful of signature items and use them to represent all signature items. Each item should be crafted to complement the pokemon it effects. Not simply to boost the pokemon's strengths or cover up their flaws.
 
Or maybe sometimes we do either, there's no reason to assume only one is correct. It's a case by case basis and we need to focus on what we should do for this Pokemon, not try to assert a design philosophy we can't confirm.

I'm in favor of this item increasing special attack since this Pokemon seems to have too many defensive flaws for any one defensive buff to overcome.
 
JJayyFeather said:
As much as I like the thoroughness of your thought, I'm against one aspect: the stats. Vespiquen currently is given +1 Def/+1 SpA because with RC that's what it would have gotten. Not to mention Vespiquen is actually a defensive Pokemon. Salazzle is an offensive Pokemon, and it's boons need to reflect that. With that in mind, it would mean that the text "Increase the Defense and Special Defense by one (1) rank." should go to "Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised." That way both mons retain their actual properties as well as the boost that Rare Candy would have given them both anyhow.
Click to expand...
I am for this implementation of the item. Out of the signature items with multiple users that raise stats, only 3 of these do not have "Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised": Relic Crown, Metal Coat, and King's Rock (the latter two could debatably not be signature items but I digress). For Relic Crown, it is patching up a common lowest stat of the recipients, something which cannot be said in this case. For Metal Coat, it was decided that further boosting Onix and Steelix's Defense was overkill. Basically, having it increase the highest stat (which is Salazzle's SpA) would be the most consistent implementation.

Exclaimer said:
I'm in favor of this item increasing special attack since this Pokemon seems to have too many defensive flaws for any one defensive buff to overcome
Click to expand...
This is a good point. In a large number of cases, a defensive signature item for Salazzle would be outclassed by Focus Band in particular, unless we gave it Focus Band's effects. Then again, I feel like an offensive item will have the same issue, especially with the prevalence of Ground-type moves.

I'd also like a bit more discussion of the other effect of the signature item. A pseudo-Focus Band effect could be necessary to stop it being completely outclassed by Focus Band itself, although I'm struggling to see flavour justification for this. For offensive effects, I like the idea of using its STAB commands upon sendout, patching up the somewhat shaky accuracy of Fire Blast for instance. I also like the idea of Poison-type moves getting Acid Spray's effect, although maybe only -1 SpD per attack. Perhaps Merciless's effect could be added to synergise with Corrosion?
 
Hm, what if we did a bit of both?

Proposal: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. "Order" moves cost two (2) less energy to use and have their priority increased by one (1). If the holder is a Fire-type, they can activate the Brighten Command on send-out. If the holder is a Poison-type, they get the effects of the ability Merciless.

Reasoning
Alright, I like the idea of playing around with making it's signature ability not as useless. Merciless serves as a great way to fully enable it's damage potential, while making the most of the effect of Corrosion. I decided that I wanted to leave the Brighten Command effect in there because without it, Salazzle would be forced to run +Spe in order to rely on it's Fire STAB at all, which isn't the greatest for a mon that isn't going to live long anyways. This way we can just fully feed the offensive potential of Salazzle.
 
I like Jayy's proposal quite a lot. I think the best thing to do from here really would be for someone (likely ZT) to just slate the best 4 or so options and have the council vote on them.

ediZt: I'm asking the rest of the mod team whether mod intervention in slating is necessary. Also would like to figure out which would be better between voting on the full package or individual components of the item. Side note, I am starting to get extraordinarily fond of mod-editing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Store would be better than Merciless. The greater chance of poisoning the target would lead to more Venoshocks and poison damage earlier on, which would generally outdamage the Merciless effect in the time Salazzle will be out. I prefer consistency over gambling on a quick poisoning off of a 30% chance.
 
Alright, I'm slating. First of all, we get Council to vote on this:
Aesthetics and economy said:
Should Salazzle's line share the same Signature Item with Vespiquen?
a) Yes. Salazzle gets the same Def/SpDef rank boosts as Vespiquen.
b) No. Salazzle should get a different Signature Item.
Click to expand...
If a) gets majority above, skip the following slate. Otherwise,
Stats and Rank boosts said:
Which stats should Salazzle/Salandit's Signature Item boost +1 Rank to?
a) Special Attack
b) Defense & Special Defense
c) Highest true base stat of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense
d) None, we'll take another route.
e) Both a) and b), and we're done!
f) Nah, back to drawing board.
Click to expand...
If e) gets majority from above, skip the following slate. If d) gets majority above, pick two from below. Otherwise, pick one.
Signature effects said:
What benefits should Salazzle's Signature Item bestow?
a) While Salazzle/Salandit is active, all of Salazzle/Salandit's opponents have their SpAtk lowered by 1 stage, adjusting the natural stage.
b) Salazzle/Salandit may automatically activate Fire-types' Brighten Command and Poison-types' Store Command upon sendout, without using any actions.
c) Salazzle/Salandit recieves -2 BAP from all damaging moves by opponents of opposite gender (does not include genderless Pokemons).
d) The Ability Corrosion will cause all Poison-type damaging attacks to automatically inflict -1 SpDef to their targets.
e) Nah, back to drawing board.
Click to expand...
Finally,
Is this iteration of Salazzle's Signature Item ready for release?
a) Yes, let's do it.
b) Nah, back to drawing board.
Click to expand...
If any ballot gets majority on the "back to drawing board" option, the results from previous ballots are retained and used as a baseline to come back to this thread for discussion. Council, please wait for 48 hours, then move this to Voting by the 72nd hour.
  1. If we want to give Salazzle's line stat/rank boosts that are different from Vespiquen's, then item descriptions will be less clogged up if we have separate Sig Items. The price to pay is that of purchasing one more item.
  2. If Slazzle's Sig Item boosts all 3 stats that actually mattered by 1 Rank, I do not favour giving Salazzle's Sig Item another effect, since that will already be a +3 advantage to Salazzle when it comes to trading damage. Salazzle might not be broken with further boosts, but the item will be, and it'll serve as a silly precedent argument. Sidenote: if we had the "+2 ranks if <17 BRT" line, then option c) benefits Salandits a lot more.
  3. All options in the 3rd slate give more-or-less a +2 advantage to Salazzle when it comes to trading damage.
  4. Attract from my post is not slated due to "hax" - the advantage offered is an inconsistent gamble and has very little to no thinking element. Better for Attract to remain niched as it is.
  5. Merciless is also not slated as I do not favour giving Salazzle the unique Ability of another single Pokemon line. Also, flavour doesn't match IMO.
 
Last edited:
If we go with "c) Highest true base stat of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense" I think the item should be the same for both Salazzle and Vespiquen. That solves the clogging issue right there, and now it's basically the same as the Solar Ray for Espeon/Lucario.
 
I'd like to remind ZhengTann that my original idea ,the activation of Brighten and Store on sendout, was paired with reducing or removing the energy cost when doing so. It wouldn't be too much of a buff if Salazzle was forced to spend 12 en whenever it entered the battle, which is more than a weather ability costs and for arguably less effect.
 
ZhengTann said:
  • Merciless is also not slated as I do not favour giving Salazzle the unique Ability of another single Pokemon line. Also, flavour doesn't match IMO.
Click to expand...

I'm posting here because this reasoning bugs me quite a bit and for several reasons. First, unless I am mistaken, all suggestions of "Merciless" refer to adding the effect of Merciless to Salazzle, not the Ability itself; "Merciless" is just used as a shorthand way of saying "This Pokemon's attacks always score critical hits against poisoned targets," so there is no conflict with regards to Mareanie and Toxapex. Second, while Salazzle's in-game flavor entries primarily discuss its pheromones I do not think that one can fairly make decisions about flavor compatibility without referring to the entire evolution line, and Salandit's Pokédex entries contain these little gems:
Salandit said:
Sun: It burns its bodily fluids to create a poisonous gas. When its enemies become disoriented from inhaling the gas, it attacks them.
Moon: Volcanoes or dry, craggy places are its home. It emanates a sweet-smelling poisonous gas that attracts bug Pokémon, then attacks them.
Click to expand...
This is a Pokemon whose entire hunting behavior can be summarized as "Debilitates prey with poison, then attacks when prey is vulnerable," which poses little, if any, opposition to the flavor of gaining an Ability named "Merciless," and is not unreasonably dissimilar to Mareanie's flavor:
Mareanie said:
Sun: It plunges the poison spike on its head into its prey. When the prey has weakened, Mareanie deals the finishing blow with its 10 tentacles.
Click to expand...
Like Salandit, Mareanie fights by incapacitating opponents with venom before dealing a conclusive strike, which justifies Mareanie's access to Merciless and is close enough to Salandit's flavor that the latter's acquisition of Merciless would not be completely unfeasible. Finally, while I understand that council members must occasionally use their own judgment and subjective reasoning when deciding whether or not a given proposal would be too "overpowered" to allow on the slate, I don't believe that council members are, or should be, able to veto options simply because they do not like said options, as such behavior undermines the point of allowing the community to play a role in balance decisions by arbitrarily removing legitimate choices from the polls.
 
Responding to 4 posts above.

Using option c) on second slate as the baseline and merging Signature Items for both Vesqiuen and Salazzle lines is not what I would've preferred, as it addressed Vespiquen when the sole purpose for this thread is to address only Salazzl. Yes I know changing the wording from "specifically Def+SpDef" to "highest base stat" mechanically changes nothing, but forgive a tired pedant who would rather cover all bases and have the taxpayers ASBers shell out more tax money CC to buy another item.

I've adopted Jayy's idea and edited option b) to give Salazzles and Salandits the choice to activate upon send-out. It still will not cost an action, and it will still cost energy. Salazzle's STAB command costs 5 EN each, so Goid is a 2 EN off the mark.

If you want balance reasons as to why I (as Policy Lead mod, I'm not in current Council) removed Merciless, my base concern is that the Merciless effect is obviously above other options in the slate - coupled with Oblivious, this gives Salazzle a never-miss Toxic set-up that bypasses all type immunities, which then proceeds to proc auto-crit on all future attacks. All other options in the slate provide at most a +2 damage advantage to Salazzle/Salandit's favour, with option c) being the closest competitor as the -SpDef drops stack over time. For lore reasons, I will just say delivering a coup de gras is different from delivering a normal attack.

Reminder - the "drawing board" options is still available for Council if they can agree that Merciless is acceptable or even necessary. I slated subjectively as a preempt to get the frame of the item up - Council please keep the momentum rolling.
 
ZhengTann said:
Using option c) on second slate as the baseline and merging Signature Items for both Vesqiuen and Salazzle lines is not what I would've preferred, as it addressed Vespiquen when the sole purpose for this thread is to address only Salazzl. Yes I know changing the wording from "specifically Def+SpDef" to "highest base stat" mechanically changes nothing, but forgive a tired pedant who would rather cover all bases and have the taxpayers ASBers shell out more tax money CC to buy another item.
Click to expand...
Again, Espeon and Lucario both use the Solar Ray despite being no more alike than Vespiquen and Salazzle. Also I'd honestly rather not force people to buy both in the rare event that someone wants to train and use both mons.
 
Reviving 7.

Mowtom, you are a Council member. Your vote counts. My slate has not changed, probably will not. You can vote on it. Please vote on it - after you or your fellow Council members create a Voting thread for it. Voicing your opinion has less effect than when you do it there.
 
Gonna adapt Zt's slate since I do agree with Mowtom. I'm also going to slate Merciless, even though I do not personally agree with it, because it did get a fair amount of community support. Feel free to mod-edit this and overrule me if you'd like, ZhengTann.

First Vote
1a) Should Salazzle's line share the same Signature Item with Vespiquen?
a. Yes
b. No, it should be a separate item

2) What benefits should Salazzle's Signature Item bestow to it?
a. If the holder has the Oblivious ability, while it is active, all opponents have their SpAtk lowered by 1 stage, adjusting the natural stage.
b. If the holder is a Fire-type, it may activate the Brighten Command on send-out without using an action. If the holder is a Poison-type, it may activate the Store Command on send-out without using an action.
c. The Oblivious ability reduces the BAP of all damaging moves by opponents of opposite gender (does not include genderless Pokemons) by 2.
d. The Corrosion ability causes all Poison-type damaging attacks to automatically inflict -1 SpDef to their targets.
e. The Corrosion ability causes any attack against a poisoned target to be a critical hit.
f. If the holder is a Fire-type, it may activate the Brighten Command on send-out without using an action. The Corrosion ability causes any attack against a poisoned target to be a critical hit.
g. Nah, back to drawing board.

Second Vote
1b) Should Royal Honey's stat boosts be changed?
a. Yes, to Highest true base stat of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense
b. No

1c) Should Royal Honey be renamed?
a. Yes (this will be dealt with later)
b. No

3) What stat boosts should Salazzle's new Signature item bestow?
a. Highest true base stat of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense
b. Defense and Special Defense

I'll give 48 hours to raise any objections, otherwise I'll put it to voting.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top