CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

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Again, all those strategies are so ridiculously slow and esoteric that they aren't competitive in the first place. Soak is simply not a viable combination with trapping moves in a metagame where so many viable Pokemon have Water immunities (Plasmanta, Mollux) or frankly don't care (Krilowatt, Arghonaut, Volkraken).

Plasmanta gets a SpA boost from Soak, Mollux restores HP and frankly both hard counter the set entirely - and before you reply with "you can run a coverage move," realize that you are no longer engaged in a defense of a practical trapping set but in wishcasting multiple slashes on a set that is slow, has massive opportunity costs, is easily played around, and whose justifications for utility play around the fringes of technically possible but pointless mechanics like burning Fire types - when all the viable ones are special attackers anyway - and poisoning Steel types which if we really thought was desirable for a trapper we'd argue for Corrosion as an Ability in that phase as it's much more straightforward.

Anyway, I said this in Showdown and my general philosophy on what TrapCAP should do is switch in and isolate a key Pokemon on an opponent's team that cannot pivot with a move or phaze away CAP, and eliminate that threat while having sufficient counterplay to possible switches. A Pokemon that could trap and isolate Tomohawk for example would be a massive asset for the CAP Metagame by removing threats with strong non-pivot move oriented role compression.
 
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While Soak wouldn't be my preferred strategy, I see no reason to think it wouldn't be usable with a trap move. Plasmanta and Mollux are both super vulnerable to the way-too-common Scarf Dugtrio, barring Shed Shell, which limits their usage somewhat.

Speaking of Shed Shell, a move that has clear synergy with trapping moves is Knock Off, exactly because it removes Shed Shell. Dugtrio is a really powerful and pervasive force in the metagame right now, so its interactions with trap moves are pretty relevant. Stuff like Toxapex and Mollux are moving to Shed Shell just to stay relevant, and that directly impacts this project.
 
I'm going to use Lando-T as an example in a scenario to explain the generic reason pivots are OK to threaten with z-move coverage. This could be considered sort of a follow-up to some of the stuff reachzero was talking about with z-move coverage and why it works decently with trapping moves.

As a disclaimer, this whole scenario could work with almost any pivot out there, assuming the z-move will definitely KO the opponent and CAP23 is faster.
Starting Scenario
On turn 1, out on the field on our side is something that the enemy's Lando-T 100% beats. We'll be switching to CAP on the first turn, and lando will get a move to do whatever it wants (this is probably stealth rock, but it definitely won't use U-turn on this first turn because that defeats the purpose of the thought experiment. I'll talk about U-turn in the part after the squiggles)

I'm also assuming that CAP's Z-move is the ONLY way we can kill Lando viably, and taking two or more earthquakes after we've switched in is bad for us. Basically, any combination of move+OHKO z-move is an OK thing to do, but move+..+move + OHKO z-move would put us at risk of losing CAP23 or the match.

Ver. 1: Lando-T vs. a non-trapper that's faster and OHKOs Lando with a z-move
Here's a list of all the likely plays a half decent* opponent could make:
  1. Lando-T U-turns out
  2. Lando-T Switches out to something that beats notrapCAP
  3. Lando-T Stays in and hopes we don't kill it right away
*We know they probably won't swords dance because we're faster and will just kill lando if it does dumb garbage like trying to set up in our face. It could use rocks or something if it didn't previously, but I'll just include that as part of option 3.

If we DON'T have a trapping move, our two best plays are to either use the z-move right away and hope the opponent doesn't switch, or to use it after we've done something else (say, set up a layer of spikes/rocks/etc). The opponent could switch during either of these turns and potentially block the z-move. Because both options two and three are open, predicting the correct timing for the z-move is incredibly punishing if we fail. Worst case scenario, Landorus gets a free turn when we switched in, gets to chunk us once with some move while we try to predict a switch, AND switches out after to absorb the z-move and waste our kill pressure.
This situation is why z-moves are classically considered risky as coverage: they might have a good best-case scenario, but have a really scary worst-case.
This whole situation plays out differently if we can trap it, though.

Ver. 2 Lando-T vs. a trapper that's faster and OHKOs Lando with a z-move
Enemy's 'decent options' stay the same:
  1. Lando-T U-turns out
  2. Lando-T Switches out to something that beats trapCAP
  3. Lando-T Stays in and hopes we don't kill it right away
If we have a trapping move, option 3 becomes SUPER risky for our opponent. If we're faster and have a trapping move while the opponent stays in, Landorus-T suddenly can't dodge the z-move any more, and we guarantee the KO next turn. Basically, our trapping move artificially increases the chance the opponent decides to hard switch out, easing prediction before it even traps anything. Couple that with the fact that we still have the option to predict the switch and use our turn differently, and the trapping move becomes super great to have.

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U-turn is an option, but it still should be recognized that it's still only a 70 BP move, and having some sort of resistance to it either through typing or stats isn't particularly difficult to obtain. If it doesn't deal much damage, using U-Turn in a situation where a 1hko z-move is looming over the opponents head becomes an extremely low-reward high-risk play.

That said, U-turn is still extremely effective at 'preventing' bad matchups. It's completely possible the scenario above would never even happen if the opponent U-turned out; U-turning on the switch-in makes it super hard to get a head-to-head matchup against the thing you're supposed to check. Hell, half (just half, though) the reason Genesect gets banned from OU every generation is because the scarf set would just spam u-turn and only take damage from stealth rock over the course of the entire battle. It probably isn't the best choice to build CAP23 towards beating u-turners just so that we can ensure we don't accidentally pass our opponents momentum with u-turn.
 
I find it really weird that no one has brought up the pivot abilities of trap moves provide to teams. Using a trap move on the right mon would allow you to switch into your set-up sweeper and then potentially win you the game, or switch into a good wall to stop an opponents set-up sweeper. I f we look at its potential that way CAP 23 could be a great volt turn user that gives you the best match up possible.
 
KrewlKat said:
I find it really weird that no one has brought up the pivot abilities of trap moves provide to teams. Using a trap move on the right mon would allow you to switch into your set-up sweeper and then potentially win you the game, or switch into a good wall to stop an opponents set-up sweeper. I f we look at its potential that way CAP 23 could be a great volt turn user that gives you the best match up possible.
Click to expand...
Eh?

Use Trapping Move, switch to other pokemon, lose the trapping effect, enemy sends in counter/check to Set Up Sweeper, exactly as if they had done on a hard swap. It's no better a Volt Turn user than any other Volt Turn user.
 
Hesh Kadesh said:
Eh?

Use Trapping Move, switch to other pokemon, lose the trapping effect, enemy sends in counter/check to Set Up Sweeper, exactly as if they had done on a hard swap. It's no better a Volt Turn user than any other Volt Turn user.
Click to expand...

Not quite. The opponent can't double out if you trap it, meaning you can switch in a Zygarde into a trapped Mollux for example without having to worry about it switching out, and potentially setting up much easier.

I'll be posting later, stay tuned.
 
Hi everyone! I'm glad to see such a fruitful discussion. I'm going to try to hit on the relevant topics of this discussion (from here and PS!), sum them up, and build off of them with some questions.

To begin with, we've identified why trapping moves see limited usage:
a) Moves like Spider Web, Block, and Mean Look, can be Taunted and don't deal any damage
b) Moves like Whirlpool and Infestation suffer low base power and imperfect accuracy, but at least they deal chip damage for a guarenteed 4 turns
c) Moves like Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle really suffer from low distribution, and Necturna simply doesn't have the movepool to sacrifice its Sketch move on them
d) Ingrain just isn't worth running because the recovery isn't worth it, phazing moves are rare, and it generally isn't worth the moveslot

For these reasons, the viable trapping moves we should consider building with CAP23 are binding moves and Anchor Shot / Spirit Shackle. Notably, Fairy Lock didn't get much discussion, but more on that later.

Next, we've found some difference between trapping moves and trapping abilities:
a) Trapping moves seem generally inferior to trapping abilities, as it takes a turn for them to take effect, which means that the opponent can swap to a check or counter
b) However, this leaves the ability slot open to a very potent ability that can work well with trapping effects
c) Additionally, this makes the opponent wonder whether or not CAP23 is even running the trap move, and it can be pulled out at any moment

We also identified some of the strengths and weaknesses of trapping moves:
a) As previously stated, it takes at least a turn to begin the trap
b) However, this promotes creative play between opponents, depending on if the opposing Pokemon wants to stay in and try to damage CAP23, only to be trapped, or if the opposing Pokemon wants to switch
c) Trap moves can guarantee safety for certain strategies: for examples Z-Moves hit their intended target, and double switches are prevented
d) It's hard to rely on trap moves' chip damage as a main strategy due to how slow it racks up. More on this in the next section
e) Binding moves' effects can be lifted with Rapid Spin, and opponents can lift it with phazing moves (Roar and Dragon Tail) or pivoting moves (U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot)

Finally, whether they are effective, annoying, or not, we identified some strategies with some of these moves. My new questions will mostly spawn from here.
a) Toxic + Binding move got lots of discussion about how chip damage can rack up quickly over a few turns
b) Soak got some discussion on how it removes STAB from opponents, but it seems very gimmicky.
c) Perish Song can KO almost any opponent if the trapper can stall out for enough turns
d) Z-Moves work very well to hit their intended targets, as well as potential coverage moves
e) Taunt can shut down slower walls
f) Hazard stacking (Spikes and Toxic Spikes) can be useful against trapped opponents who can't KO back
g) Other status moves can be useful to cripple trapped Pokemon
h) Pivoting moves can grant teammates extremely safe switch-in opportunities
i) Knock Off removes Shed Shell, an annoying item for a trapping concept
j) Boosting moves can be used against slower walls as well

If I forgot anything on this list, please don't post here "you forgot X snake!" That only clutters the thread. PM me or catch me on PS! instead if you feel like something needs to be here or clarified.

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To complete the first part of Concept Assessment, I'd like to bring up Fairy Lock again. No one's really analyzed its potential uses at all, and I'd like to see if CAP23 could use it in any capacity.

Next, I'd like to comment on Toxic + Binding Move. This combination of moves has revealed itself to be a controversial topic. On one hand, the chip damage between Toxic and a binding move can rack up fast over a few turns. My concerns over such a strategy are actually finding those turns to get there, and building a Pokemon specifically tailored to that kind of strategy. For example, we sacrifice lots of moveslots actually to achieve such a strategy. CAP23 would use three moveslots to pull off such a strategy: Toxic, a binding move, and presumably a recovery move. That leaves one slot open for any sort of creativity. This strategy would also mandate quite a bulky Pokemon. Additionally, many balancing issues would surface with this mon: specifically surrounding the recovery move. If it's reliable, the this Pokemon could potentially stall almost anything, assuming this Pokemon is bulky enough to pull of this strategy, it could wall an entire team if played with correctly. On the other hand, if it has no reliable recovery, it risks getting KOed before it can complete the Toxic Trap kill. While it's not impossible to make such a mon and end up with a balanced Pokemon, this area is very small, and we risk making a Pokemon that either fails to trap anything or is so bulky and sustainable that it traps way too many threats. In short, it seems like this strategy while good on paper, a) is very hard to build, b) is hard to use in practice given that it needs so many free turns, and c) offers little creativity when it goes to set design.

Also, I'm going to have to end discussion on Soak here. While it certainly can be in CAP23's movepool, using Soak as one of CAP23's main attacks is frankly just a gimmick. If we go a defensive stall set with it, we suffer the same problems as you do with Toxic + Binding Move, as it uses the same strategy, but it's less effective because now you don't even have that open moveslot for an attacking move. An offensive Soak set misses the point of trapping moves entirely: trapping moves ease prediction, but then Soak wastes another turn to ease prediction once more, which is redundant. We can focus on coverage later on, and we shouldn't have to worry about Soak governing the Typing Discussion and our entire threatlist.

Heatran has been brought up multiple times during this discussion as an example of a good trapper, and Magma Storm's high base power has a huge positive for its niche as a trapper, as well as its access to powerful coverage moves. This leads me to Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle, which have been shown to be two of the best trapping moves so far, as they have reliable base power as well. While binding moves are an option to use to trap opponents like Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot, these two moves in particular lend themselves to have more diverse movesets.

We've also started discussing which sort of Pokemon we'd like to trap; however, I would like to hold off on this and first would like to focus on which trapping moves we want to use. To be fully transparent, my goal with Concept Assessment is to figure out which trapping strategy should be the "defining strategy" of the concept and then figure out generally what Pokemon we want to trap based on role. Let's look at these new questions. Question 5 should be an easier question to answer, but Question 6 is extremely important moving forward, so take some time when answering it.

Questions:
5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?
6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

Regarding Question 6, keep in mind that when we pick one strategy, it's hard to accommodate the other strategy on the same CAP, as they run counter-intuitively to one another.
 
5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?

I don't think Fairy Lock would be very useful, to be honest. It's easily outclassed by the other non-damaging trapping moves, since the others stay indefinitely as long as the user stays, while Fairy Lock only lasts one turn.

Also, Fairy Lock can be exploited to the opponent's benefit, since he / she could predict the incoming Fairy Lock and bring out the appropriate check / counter of CAP23 virtually risk-free, since CAP23 would find itself locked by its own move at the end of the turn.

The only way in which I could see this working would be if CAP23 has good enough coverage to threaten a good portion of the metagame, forcing the opponent into a risky situation: "stay or leave?"

However, I still think that Block, Spider Web and whatnot would be much more reliable in a Singles environment, and that Fairy Lock would fit more for a Pokémon with an "high risk, high reward" concept.

All in all, I think the move could have had much more potential in a Doubles metagame.

6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

Personally, I would be more inclined toward the offensive approach. Binding + residual sounds interesting and is a relatively unexplored strategy, but this would essentially reduce the amount of creativity of CAP23, which would most likely end as a wall.

Meanwhile, the other strategy, could work for either bulky setup users to tanks to speedy attackers. Also, this strategy as well is rarely seen.

So, I would be all for a more offensive approach.
 
6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

I've discussed this a bit with Snek on Showdown earlier, and I suggested the idea of focusing more on an offensive set with either Anchor Shot or Spirit Shackle, rather than stalling with a binding "attack" such as Infestation and using residual damage like burn or poison. Stalling can comsume several turns just to kill a single member of an opponent's team of six, and stall is a boring playstyle in Singles. While Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle are predictable after they have been used at least once, both attacks can deal decent damage right off the zubat. While nothing is immune to Anchor Shot, a lot of relevant threats resist Steel, such as other common Steel, Fire, Water, and Electric-type Pokémon (e.g. Marowak-Alola, Heatran, and so on). Spirit Shackle cannot hit Normal, but the only other typing that normally resists Ghost is Dark, and there aren't that as many Dark-types around due to Fighting and Fairy attacks being quite popular in CAP (even if Kerfluffle isn't the greatest anymore). The only relevant two I can think of on the top of my head are Colossoil and both forms of Greninja. Once the user of these trapping attacks KOs a Pokémon, the CAP can pivot out to something more desirable if it get access to U-turn. I'm not sure about working with trapping, pivoting, and Z-Moves on the same set at the moment, though it seems like it would work with the right coverage.

I don't have an elaborate reply for Question 5 right now because I don't know much about Fairy Lock other than it preventing switching one turn after usage. It would be advised to forgo this quick trapping move in favor of the above offensive combo, though.
 
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5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?

I'm leaning toward a no, I mean, Klefki can make a good use of this move, it can put screens of hazards and when it's about to die, it can use Fairy Lock and then give a free switch to the now trapped Pokemon. But that means sacrificing Klefki (or CAP23 in this case) itself, or risking the foe brings a CAP23's counter, now both are trapped and that'd put CAP23 in a really awkward position (at least of course you think into putting a pivot move like U-turn or Volt Switch) which would make the trapping strategy a high risk-moderate/high reward.

It could have it uses, but it's a bit risky and I'm pretty sure CAP23 should focus in consistency with its trapping role

EDIT: 6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

In terms of how creative CAP23 could get, I guess it'd be better focusing in a more offensive approaching using Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle, as Darklatias92 said, resudal damage based trapping would give CAP23 a limited way of how it could work
 
6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

I agree with the users before me in that we should take an offensive approach utilizing Spirit Shackle or Anchor Shot. For one, Binding + Residual damage takes awhile to be effective, since that's the nature of it, and, as said previously, limits what we can do with CAP23. Also, a more offensive trapper would probably end up better in the end as in the scenario of the opponent switching to a check or counter on the turn you use the move, the defensive trapper only gets a very weak hit off + 1 turn of residual damage before more than likely switching, while the more offensive trapper gets off a decently powerful 80 BP move that's likely off of invested Attack before having to switch. Plus, depending on what direction we take, an offensive trapper can use pivot moves better, at least around it's checks and counters. Also, extremely minor note, but Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot are both from Gen 7, so utilizing them in our first Gen 7 CAP is a nice way to explore the new things Gen 7 brought us.
 
5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?

I'm personally on the side that believes this is not the route that should be taken for CAP 23, as Fairy Lock has some very noticable issues as a move that would make it very difficult to use for CAP 23. Fairy Lock is objectively worse than the other non-damaging trapping, as they hold the opponent until the user switches out while Fairy Lock can only hold them for one turn. One turn of trapping means only one turn of being able to set hazards, boost stats, etc. Actually, Fairy Lock actually threatens you more than the opponent, as it prevents hard switching on your side as well (but still allows U-turn and stuff). This means that the opponent can easily switch (or VoltTurn) into a check and you are get that mon heavily damage or even KO'd in the turn that they're trapped together. I'm pretty sure this was meant to be more of a doubles move, but I just don't think that it is the route to go with CAP 23.

6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

At one point during this discussion, I was more supportive of a defensive choice. However, given the options that we currently have, I think a more offensive mon would be the better choice even if this would be our sixth one in a row. Stall based defense just seems incredibly boring concept wise, since we'd pretty much make a fairly standard stall mon with trapping an little deviation from one set. However, offensive trapping has far more possible diversity in Z-moves, setup moves, and pivoting. Options is very important to making a viable mon, so it certainly shouldn't be limited to one set.
 
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6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

As much as I want a CAP to be more defensive, this simply isn't a good concept to do so. Binding + Toxic is really constricting and is something Heatran does anyway, so it isn't any fun nor will it teach us anything. Something to note is that just because it should (imo) be more offensive doesn't mean it should be a blazing fast thing. We could make a bulky attacker with some longevity, pivoting and a set-up move if we wanted to go that route. I'm not saying that's what we should do, but I just want everyone to keep in mind that offense is a broader term than it might seem. Trapping stall is a very fine line to walk on and I don't think it would be worth it.

Also Fairy Lock is hot garbage so let's not
 
*returning from holidays* Oh god, you have already started... Ok let's start

6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

Personally, I prefer the offensive option since I don't like stall strategies.
Also I agree with Yoshiblaze about Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle.
 
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5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?

As mentioned, Fairy Lock is a terrible move, but let's see if there are any advantages at all of running it.

Firstly, it prevents your opponent from switching out and them from phazing you in a single move, which allows compression and reduction of 4mss.

Secondly, as a Fairy move, you can run Fairium Z to give yourself an option between Z-Fairy Lock and Twinkle Tackle.

As such, Fairy Lock is really unlikely to be useful, but could possibly find obscure uses anyway.

6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

While both have their place and I would normally refer the offensive route, my fear is that an offensive route risks having better things to do than trap and we risk ending up with a standard wall breaker or sweeper that barely uses their trapping move.

The defensive route makes trapping more appealing due to the advantages of whittling down a trapped opponent.

That said, others seem to favour the challenge and learning opportunities of the offensive route, which is valid reasoning and I won't object.
 
6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

I could see either one working fairly well. I am slightly turned towards the more offensive strategy as I feel It might be more useful. I also think a compromise could be possible between the two, as it could learn moves from both sets. The one problem with the Idea of a compromise is that the pokemon stats could not as easily reflect both.
 
Sereg said:
Secondly, as a Fairy move, you can run Fairium Z to give yourself an option between Z-Fairy Lock and Twinkle Tackle.
Click to expand...

Small side note: Fairy Lock is no offensive move, so Z-Fairy Lock doesn't turn into Twinkle Tackle, but it provides a boost in defense instead.

5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?
I don't think Fairy Lock is very viable. It basically traps both CAP23 and the opposing mon, so it's only use is if the opponent stays in with something that CAP 23 can do something against, e.g. set up upon or stall out.

6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?
I think a built around Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle is the way to go. It puts less restraint on the movepool stage and leaves more room for different movesets. As already said, a bulky stall mon bears the risk of either being too overpowered or not being able to do anything at all.
 
To clarify about Fairy Lock, it certainly wouldn't be the defining move of the concept because that constricts our stat spread a lot. However, if used correctly, most notably on the turn the user is KOed, it's actually an incredibly rewarding move. Imagine Mollux gets hit by Fairy Lock, CAP23 gets KOed by Toxic damage or Lava Plume, and then you get to send in your Zygarde to set up, with Mollux trapped the entire turn. That's a free Substitute for SubCoil or Dragon Dance for offensive sets. Or hypothetically, if CAP23 is a hazard setter, and the opposing Pokémon is a hazard remover, CAP23 traps the spinner with Fairy Lock, goes down, and then gives a teammate a free turn to annhilate the trapped spinner, so you keep your hazards up. It still would hard to use and seems pretty specific, but that's why I asked if we want to explore it "in any capacity." I don't think it's objectively bad as Ingrain because it can at least give a huge payoff. Is it worth considering?
 
snake_rattler said:
To clarify about Fairy Lock, it certainly wouldn't be the defining move of the concept because that constricts our stat spread a lot. However, if used correctly, most notably on the turn the user is KOed, it's actually an incredibly rewarding move. Imagine Mollux gets hit by Fairy Lock, CAP23 gets KOed by Toxic damage or Lava Plume, and then you get to send in your Zygarde to set up, with Mollux trapped the entire turn. That's a free Substitute for SubCoil or Dragon Dance for offensive sets. Or hypothetically, if CAP23 is a hazard setter, and the opposing Pokémon is a hazard remover, CAP23 traps the spinner with Fairy Lock, goes down, and then gives a teammate a free turn to annhilate the trapped spinner, so you keep your hazards up. It still would hard to use and seems pretty specific, but that's why I asked if we want to explore it "in any capacity." I don't think it's objectively bad as Ingrain because it can at least give a huge payoff. Is it worth considering?
Click to expand...

Definitely worth considering. We could even make another identical version of Fairy Lock identical to our CAP, just for a bit of uniqueness. Something along the lines of a move where the opposing mon makes contact with the CAPmon, they become trapped because they reached into CAPmon's ocket (just a flavour idea, not important). This is 100% worth considering.

Mod Edit: "custom" moves and move names are banned.
 
5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?

I personally do not think fairy lock is worth spending our time on. As snake stated earlier in discussion, there are reasons why moves like spider web do not get any usage. The thing about fairy lock though is A) Both pokemon cannot switchout (for clarification see the move description on fairy lock) and B) It only lasts a turn where a move like spider web stays until the user of the move switches out. I just feel its inferior and all around not viable. I'm sure with CAP magic we could really make it work if we wanted to, but I see no reason to explore the move at all. It's just a bad move, with no real competitive use outside extremely niche situations.

6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

I feel we should focus more on using a move such as Spirit Shackle or Anchor shot, and pairing it with more offensive strategies such as z moves and the like. The reason I say this is that it is just the more guaranteed way to be an effective trapper. It keeps things simple yet effective. While I'm not going to knock a binding move + stally tactics, I do think it would be much harder to pull off effectively. Sure in the long run it could do more throughout a battle, but thats really just schematics. The binding moves are so low damage and the residual racks up so slowly, it really puts the pokemon using them and the strategy at danger. While on the other hand, using a pokemon with say anchor shot, then nuking with a z move, or even just pivoting out, gives you more guaranteed damage. It would in essence be a poor mans dugtrio. I'd rather do a one-two combo with hard hitting trapping move into a z move, than try to bank on weak long term trapping + stalling out the damage with residual.
 
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Questions:
5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?
I think Fairy Lock is 100% a move worth considering, even if just to a very small degree. It definitely wouldn't be on the more defining sets that CAP23 would run, just because it's unlikely that CAP23 could afford to run a trap move, "Destiny Bond"-estique move, and the other moves we'd like to be running. Originally I didn't think much of the idea, but then Snake did make a very good point. You can actually buy not one, but two free turns with the move. Sort of. Memento can easily force a switch, and buy one free turn. Likewise with Parting Shot. Destiny Bond just smites the Pokemon who KOed you. But Fairy Lock is a whole different story, because you get one free turn immediately after being KOed, and another free turn when the opponent switches out (assuming you didn't already KO the trapped 'mon).

The only thing I'd just want to be careful of is to avoid this becoming a tad overpowered. If you knew the CAP had Fairy Lock, and ended up with a fast stat spread that could easily abuse it, that could be a very dangerous combination. Not like Destiny Bond Gengar dangerous, like, VERY dangerous. However, if we make the CAP have a suitable speed tier, we should able to make this a fairly balanced and interesting move to use. Especially considering that instead of KOing CAP23, the opponent could predict it and switch into something that doesn't mind getting trapped with CAP23 and easily abuse a turn of bad matchup. That's why in vacuum it should be balanced.

So I think it's a move we should look in to.

6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?
We should 100% look for the offensive strategy. Binding Move + Residual Damage ends up with a kind of nasty looking Pokemon that really pigeonholes our stat choices and what sets we'll be able to run. We should focus on the offensive strategies instead because an Offensive Trapper is inherently more effective at it's job. A stall trapper does what... dork around and soak up hits while just waiting for the enemy to die? I think that sounds very disappointing, doesn't encourage making smart plays and interesting strategies, and overall just sounds like cancer. Offensive CAP23 would presumably be much faster, which is much more useful. I highly recommend seeing Ignus's post earlier in this thread on the matter; he put it much better than I can.

Offensive trappers give us more options for how we want to build CAP23 and are more effective at the job of actually punishing Pokemon they trap.
 
5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?
No. It shouldn't really looked at, as Fairy Lock just seems to me like a high-risk low-reward type thing, and as most people said, if your opponent switches into a counter before Fairy Lock, you set yourself up for failure, as it can setup and not only defeat the Fairy Lock-er, put a massive dent in the rest of your team.
6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

I think that we should focus on the offensive trapping strategy, as the binding move + residual damage strategy is too gimmicky, and removes a lot of the creativity part of it. The offensive trapping I think is better because not only is it non-gimmicky, it can differentiate itself from Dugtrio, because it has a better offensive presence because the set most people are going for is Trap -> Setup/Attack -> Z-move.
 
5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?

It's probably outclassed by mean look, block, and the other one. It would be for trapping to get 1 move off. The opponent may switch, allowing you to get another random move off.

6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

If we are using stall, it becomes trap chansey (I guess? Like, we don't want it to be bulky enough to stall all pokemon, and isn't Chansey similar?) If we use Spirit Shackle / Anchor Shot any trapping move, the effects will be deactivated when any pokemon switches out unlike some other trap moves, so we can only fit the strategy itself on the mon.
 
Sorry if this is a little short but I'm trying to bring it up without minimodding so plz don't be mad

I think something worth mentioning is we should try to differentiate CAP23 from Dugtrio. I'm still in favor of a more offensive route with this concept, but I feel that if we make something too close to Dugtrio, it will find no place in the CAP metagame.
 
6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

I personally think we should focus on a more offensive strategy, because I feel the more defensive strategy with focus on residual damage would be harder to balance, and ultimately less fun to build, as there is far less that we would be free to change up, and far more that really needs to hit specific benchmarks.

But with that said, I think it is important to differentiate between methods of going offensive. There is a huge difference between Anchor Shot + Z-Moves and Clamp + Z-Moves, and while the former just seems better, in theory, I think the latter is actually a better method to choose. The reason for this is that there is no trade off with Anchor Shot or Spirit Shackle, unless we really gimp ourselves by either making ourselves a special attacker or make them terrible for coverage, such as going Spirit Shackle on a Dark type. Assuming we do neither of these and actually build such that these moves are not terrible, than there is absolutely no reason not to use the moves. The big thing with Z-Move lure trapping, as shown by Heatran, is that it is only so effective because the risks associated with it mean it is not the Pokemon's reliable, go-to strategy all the time. The poor accuracy of Magma Storm, combined with the two-turn nature of Solar Beam making it require a Z-Move to hit the things it wants to trap means that, while it is something to be aware of, you do not assume every Heatran you run into will murder your water types that try and switch in. This is important, because if we know our Pokemon will always be able to beat a certain other Pokemon in this way, those Pokemon simply will not switch in. The reliability of Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle take a bit away from this, as with their power and accuracy, they are just all around good moves that you can assume will be run.

Now, of course, the Z-Move side of things is equally important. If you are required to run a move you otherwise wouldn't, like Heatran with Solar Beam, then that can provide the downside that makes the luring less expected. But, that means we either need to use one of a small number of strong moves with downsides that you wouldn't normally run, which severely limits our options, or we need to have fantastic power and use very weak Z-Moves of moves that you would never otherwise use due to their low power. I feel like, if there is unreliability on the trapping side, we can afford to give decently powerful moves that can destroy checks, but are normally subpar coverage, but I do not think it would be a good idea to do so if the trapping move itself is a solid move we are expected to always be using.

On the other hand, if we are not looking to do Z-luring, and would rather go with pivoting or boosting or something else, Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle are probably the way to go. In fact, giving it both boosting and pivoting options could be ideal, as it forces the opponent to think whether to predict a pivot and switch to what you will want pivoted on now, risking being set up on if it is not a pivot, or switch to the counter now to stop setup, but potentially give an easy switch in to something else threatening.

Personally, I like the Binding Moves + Z-Move luring strategy, both because it is proven and it is, in my mind, the most flexible and the least likely to go over the top, but I think either kind of move can work, so long as we recognize their differences and don't try to build something for one that better works with the other.
 
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