BH Balanced Hackmons

Instead of prankster audino which is a junk set, use Unaware Audino. You can still get your haze off. You can also switch that to heart Swap and take the boosts for yourself, and since you're Unaware, you still stalemate Imposter switchins. Your team seems vulnerbale to chip damage though. I would recommend putting Heal Bell or at least Refresh on something in order to take status better. If you want a solid secondary unaware wall, use Mega Gyarados which resists Power Trip, Sunsteel Strike ad moongeist beam and can survive two of any of those at +2 (if you are up against a simple shell smash sweeper, Gyarados can only take 1 hit). You say that you don't want to play stall in BH, but that looks a whole lot like stall to me, and any teammate partners I recommend to you would be mons to help you stall. I totally agree with other posters who recommend a bulky hazard setter that can keep up its hp and continue to set hazards, either a Steel type or a physical Primal Groudon counter such as Giratina, Zygarde-C or mega Swampert.
 
morogrim said:
I wanted to give you actual teambuilding advice but I noticed the problem is way deeper since a lot of your sets aren't even optimal to begin with. Going by the same order you posted:

1. You don't need Timid to outspeed Mmy at +1, neutral max Spe does the trick too. Go for Bold/Modest nature instead. You already have Leech Seed to deal with Shed, so having both Leech Seed and MgB seems a bit repetitive. Ice Beam is better than MgB because it hits all the Dragons that resist Scald, not just Gira (most notably Ray and Zyg-c) and both MgB and Ice Beam 2HKO Gira anyway, so running MgB won't give you much of an advantage over Ice Beam.

2. I'm not a big fan of running Rapid Spin on a mon that can't force out the #1 spin blocker in the tier (Giratina). Spectral doesn't even force out non-FC Gira.

3. Also not a big fan of Unaware Zygarde since most setup sweepers do indeed carry Ice coverage.

4. Prankster Dino is not the best Prankster user imo, but your team really needs a Fairy to take Core Enforcers so...

5. Sash on a mon as bulky as Pdon makes no sense as it can already take almost any 1 hit from anything in the tier. Also, having hazards on a Stakeout mon kind of defeats the purpose of a Stakeout user since you're supposed to use Stakeout to break walls. Even without Stakeout, Pdon already forces switches and can use another ability such as Mold Breaker to get hazards up. Sticky Web also doesn't make much sense in a semi-stall team such as yours and is usually used for more offensive teams.

6. Tbh, it's very hard to screw up an Imposter set. This set is fine.

Overall, I kind of expect more knowledge about BH from a 1700 player esp since these errors are fundamental mistakes that don't have much to do with the meta...
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i agree with some of these, but a few things for certain numbers i want to point out

1) the speed is also nice to outpace primal groudon, and other jolly/timid 90's as i cant say how many times ive lost my ogre just because someone fired a tinted v-create on it knowing i was slower. note that tying with giratina might also not be favorable, but most run min speed for pivot/core enforce so i wont really argue this.

2) honestly with hazards not even playing that big of a role in bh, (most mons resist, or have methods to heal off the damage) if none of your mons are specifically weak to stealth rocks, i dont see why being walled off by a spinblocker is a big deal, especially when your forcing one of groudons checks into the open, allowing you to u-turn into a mon to help deal with it. if he had a mega ray, id say yeah, defog on a mon like audino works magic, but considering rocks dont even really phase him much, i think solga being the spinner is fine.

5) although i agree hazards on a stakeout mon sounds weird, but in the sense of what a hazard setter wants, stakeout don can utilize turns where people panic into their giratinas and zygardes and set up hazards. i mean, its not a great hazard mon, but considering pdon has so many dedicated counters like fur coaters, i think abusing that to get hazards up instead of doing pitiful damage isnt that bad. this guy wanted a hazard setter, and considering stakeout don is capable of forcing switches or forcing mons to stay in (for example, no checks to pdon left so they keep solga in to get switch initiative) means groudon has plenty of turns to set up rocks and webs where it would otherwise just be stalemated from fur coaters(i dont like webs, but what else is it going to run. plus the teams slow.)
 
Lcass4919 said:
5) although i agree hazards on a stakeout mon sounds weird, but in the sense of what a hazard setter wants, stakeout don can utilize turns where people panic into their giratinas and zygardes and set up hazards. i mean, its not a great hazard mon, but considering pdon has so many dedicated counters like fur coaters, i think abusing that to get hazards up instead of doing pitiful damage isnt that bad. this guy wanted a hazard setter, and considering stakeout don is capable of forcing switches or forcing mons to stay in (for example, no checks to pdon left so they keep solga in to get switch initiative) means groudon has plenty of turns to set up rocks and webs where it would otherwise just be stalemated from fur coaters(i dont like webs, but what else is it going to run. plus the teams slow.)
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morogrim said:
5. Sash on a mon as bulky as Pdon makes no sense as it can already take almost any 1 hit from anything in the tier. Also, having hazards on a Stakeout mon kind of defeats the purpose of a Stakeout user since you're supposed to use Stakeout to break walls. Even without Stakeout, Pdon already forces switches and can use another ability such as Mold Breaker to get hazards up. Sticky Web also doesn't make much sense in a semi-stall team such as yours and is usually used for more offensive teams.
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You don't need Stakeout to force switches on Pdon, as I already said. In fact, the reason why Stakeout works so well on Pdon is because of its ability to naturally force switches by itself. There are better abilities for hazard setting out there. Also, Spikes or Toxic Spikes are by far better choices for a stally team over Webs.


Lcass4919 said:
2) honestly with hazards not even playing that big of a role in bh, (most mons resist, or have methods to heal off the damage) if none of your mons are specifically weak to stealth rocks, i dont see why being walled off by a spinblocker is a big deal, especially when your forcing one of groudons checks into the open, allowing you to u-turn into a mon to help deal with it. if he had a mega ray, id say yeah, defog on a mon like audino works magic, but considering rocks dont even really phase him much, i think solga being the spinner is fine.
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When playing stall, hazard control is extremely important, especially if the opponent has more than 1 hazard to set such as Toxic Spikes or Spikes.



Lcass4919 said:
1) the speed is also nice to outpace primal groudon, and other jolly/timid 90's as i cant say how many times ive lost my ogre just because someone fired a tinted v-create on it knowing i was slower. note that tying with giratina might also not be favorable, but most run min speed for pivot/core enforce so i wont really argue this.
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His reasoning for running Timid was to outspeed Mmy at +1, which is why i gave that response. You could run Timid to outspeed other base 90s, but that wasn't what the OP was talking about and I didn't want him to run a justifiable set for the wrong reasons.
 
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I'm In Math Class Bro said:
Yeah, I guess I don't know what I was thinking there. I had always seen Groudon go down quickly anyway, but the Z-move sounds helpful (so accustomed to BH items).
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I'd also suggest you should change your ability on pdon since it appears the idea of the set is to force a switch to give a free turn to set hazards, whereas stakeout only discourages switches which to me seems counter productive. Imo running Mold Breaker to guarantee the hazards go up and possibly force out some Fur Coat users (dialga probably most relevant) would be a good idea. Another ability that could work nicely is Desolate Land which removes your 4× weakness so the chances of getting OHKOed are slim (-ates ray or specs psychic surge mmy are the only ones I can think of rn). What this means is you can almost always live to set hazards and it has the bonuses of boosting V-create to threaten more mons.
I'd also consider using saftey goggles if you're using it as a lead so you have an easier time against other leads but that's just a thought.
252 Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas in Harsh Sunshine: 417-492 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Just an example but it shows how the extra power can really help.
 
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morogrim said:
Overall, I expect a 1700 player to have more BH knowledge than this esp since these errors are fundamental mistakes that don't have much to do with the meta...
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1. I must have miscalculated the nature's impact on the boost, so that was admittedly my mistake. Leech Seed allows Shedinja a turn to either Volt Switch, endeavor, or the like, not reliably killing it or putting Ogre in great danger. I suppose, however, it may be better to lose to Shedinja than to Rayquaza and Zygarde.

2. The Solgaleo set I was using was what I perceived was the standard, based on what I had seen, and I also didn't particularly need to remove hazards as mentioned before.

3 & 4. I've come to find that Unaware Audino just isn't bulky enough on its own, as neutral attacks wear it down really quickly. I guess the common perception is that with only 2 uncommon weaknesses, you can keep Audino around for a while, but with an attacker like Rayquaza, something like Dragon Ascent could potentially put it into the 2hko range, even unboosted/with unaware.

5. Sash on Groudon was as an emergency button and for the surprise factor. Admittedly not sure what I was thinking when I made the set, so please read the other posts and don't beat a dead horse.

Like I said, it's been a long time. All of Pokemon is learned and can be forgotten, especially in a fit of rage and confusion after a series of losses.

I took off Audino and Zygarde, and made Chansey Scarfed, gave Groudon a Groundium, and got rid of webs. I'll probably put on a Refrigerate user and a Prankster Registeel.

SuperSkylake said:
Instead of prankster audino which is a junk set, use Unaware Audino. You can still get your haze off. You can also switch that to heart Swap and take the boosts for yourself, and since you're Unaware, you still stalemate Imposter switchins. Your team seems vulnerbale to chip damage though. I would recommend putting Heal Bell or at least Refresh on something in order to take status better. If you want a solid secondary unaware wall, use Mega Gyarados which resists Power Trip, Sunsteel Strike ad moongeist beam and can survive two of any of those at +2 (if you are up against a simple shell smash sweeper, Gyarados can only take 1 hit). You say that you don't want to play stall in BH, but that looks a whole lot like stall to me, and any teammate partners I recommend to you would be mons to help you stall. I totally agree with other posters who recommend a bulky hazard setter that can keep up its hp and continue to set hazards, either a Steel type or a physical Primal Groudon counter such as Giratina, Zygarde-C or mega Swampert.
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Now that I think about it, I should use Mega Gyarados and Kyurem-White. My team consisted of those two before I stopped playing, as well as Prankster Regi, Mmy, and I guess some filler. Sounds good.
 
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i use my imposter Chansey with Anchor Shot and Topsy Turvy to improof it. Unless I get critted too much, it not only improofs it, it also traps and pp-stalls the opposing imposter to death. You have to be careful to not use tail glow twice (or if you did it, you might lose a mon xD) as long as the opposing imposter exists, as Chansey gets 2HKOed by +6 Core Enforcer.
Otherwise stuff like Dtail/Prankster Encore Registeel might work too.

Edit: I can also put sub onto bounce Audino, but Chansey does well, unless I get critted before I can use Topsy-Turvy.
 
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Finally :D
bh ladder peak 2.png

And this is the team I managed to peak the ladder with:
Tick Tock Clock (Dialga) @ Adamant Orb
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Core Enforcer
- Tail Glow
- Doom Desire
- Milk Drink

MIPS (Audino-Mega) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Heal Order
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Power Star (Solgaleo) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Knock Off
- Nuzzle
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn

Big Boo (Giratina) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Defog
- Spectral Thief
- Slack Off

Bob-omb Buddy (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Heal Bell
- Roost
- Topsy-Turvy

Goomba (Registeel) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
- Shore Up
- Destiny Bond
- Entrainment
- Nuzzle

This team is a stall team I built after the ban of Magnet Pull, which allowed me to run three steel types without losing to PDon instantly.
  • Giratina is the premier physical wall thanks to Fur Coat. 252 Speed may seem odd, but has often proven to be helpful. PH users like Regigigas are undersped anyways, Kyore at least after a QD. The modest nature was chosen for more powerful Core Enforcers and to have a good chance in 2HKOing opposing Giratinas.
  • Audino-Mega: a classic Magic Bounce set and my check to Normalize Gengar.
  • Solgaleo: a standard RegenVest set and the main answer to Psysurge MMY and -ate users. Core Enforcer may be run over Nuzzle, I like both, but sadly Solgaleo doesn't have five moveslots.
  • Registeel: of course the team's prankster user. I decided not to use haze, as it was just useless most of the time, as the opponent just smashed again when I switched Regi out or killed Regi with a super-effective move - only Destiny Bond at the right time could stop it. Instead I decided to use Entrainment to be able to stop fairy-type poison healers.
  • Dialga: The most offensive-orientated mon and a wallbreaker. I already have posted the set here so you should know about it :) Unlike other Core Enforcer users, Dialga also scares Fairies out thanks to Doom Desire.
  • Chansey: does what it always does in BH: Copying the opposing pokemon. This Chansey also improofs Dialga by trapping the opposing imposter and turning its boosts against it with Topsy-Turvy.
 
I'm In Math Class Bro said:
Yeah, I think that's exactly what I meant when I said that Stall is the best team archetype now.

Hopefully this doesn't last too long and we can go back to how BH was before
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youre new, arent you?
in older gens, stall has always been the dominant archetype. between gen5 w/ stuff like the sleep cycling and spore hitting grass types, and weather wars w/ stuff like hydration rest, or gen6 where people like adrian and anna were drawing on ladder after 300 turns 6-6, defensively oriented playstyles relying heavily on status and hazard control have almost always been the most consistent way to win in bh.
expecting to win quick, mindless matches by being able to reliably overpower walls is, quite frankly, ridiculous. if there's ever a situation where there is a threat that can even semi-consistently, or reliably take down its counters, the ability or move in question is banned, ex. stakeout, in order to stop the meta from being mindless offense spam whenever possible.
ofc it doesnt always work, such as when theres an influx of busted things like cfz's, wb, stakeout, innards, and somehow trapping still, people are going to want to spend more time testing each individual thing because, yknow, that makes sense. this does not mean that the meta becoming more stally when these things leave is a bad thing, or that HO is "how BH was before."
 
Ye to add to the above, stall has definitely gotten better with the banning on Stakeout and Trapping (although I still believe Stag Gar helped it out more then hurt it), but I still don't think it will be anything close to OP atm when we still have to deal with threats such as Pdon and Psychic Surge / Contrary MMY. Teambuilding has been less constricting somewhat with the aforementioned bans, but still I still think SM BH is in an awkward state where covering all relevant threats is next to impossible, and that is the goal stall usually tries to achieve in order to not be broken through.
 
jrm115 said:
youre new, arent you?
in older gens, stall has always been the dominant archetype. between gen5 w/ stuff like the sleep cycling and spore hitting grass types, and weather wars w/ stuff like hydration rest, or gen6 where people like adrian and anna were drawing on ladder after 300 turns 6-6, defensively oriented playstyles relying heavily on status and hazard control have almost always been the most consistent way to win in bh.
expecting to win quick, mindless matches by being able to reliably overpower walls is, quite frankly, ridiculous. if there's ever a situation where there is a threat that can even semi-consistently, or reliably take down its counters, the ability or move in question is banned, ex. stakeout, in order to stop the meta from being mindless offense spam whenever possible.
ofc it doesnt always work, such as when theres an influx of busted things like cfz's, wb, stakeout, innards, and somehow trapping still, people are going to want to spend more time testing each individual thing because, yknow, that makes sense. this does not mean that the meta becoming more stally when these things leave is a bad thing, or that HO is "how BH was before."
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this is not true? stall has never been the dominant archetype and it probably never will be. stall is good on ladder bc ladder sucks, but in tours it's a different story
 
Tour teams and ladder teams are very different imo and are built with very different purposes in mind. For that reason, tour teams usually don't perform too well on ladder and vice versa. That being said, the most successful and powerful team build for gens 6 and 7 (for ladder) has been pivot balance.
 
MAMP said:
this is not true? stall has never been the dominant archetype and it probably never will be. stall is good on ladder bc ladder sucks, but in tours it's a different story
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ok i shouldnt have phrased it the way i did. its not true stall, but its not the HO that people relatively new, or at least people who have become good since the start of gen7, are used to. i used the word stall not because its my personal view on how those teams are built, but as a relative term compared to leppa cfz or wb ogre spam.
 
jrm115 said:
ok i shouldnt have phrased it the way i did. its not true stall, but its not the HO that people relatively new, or at least people who have become good since the start of gen7, are used to. i used the word stall not because its my personal view on how those teams are built, but as a relative term compared to leppa cfz or wb ogre spam.
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Yeah, I was gonna mention that CFZ was cancer. Losing 1 pivot meant losing the game in that case.
I liked Water Bubble a little bit but I saw why it had to go, perhaps Innards too.
I also think Steelworker Kartana and Sheer Force mmy work for me, but I'd like to figure out something other than Power Whip for Kartana

Madam Curie (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Blue Flare
- Psychic
- Quiver Dance

Kartana (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- V-create
- Trick
- Power Whip
 
Stall is better than ever.
Its main counters are all banned.

CFZ moves, Innards Out, Water Bubble, Gengarnite and Stakeout, BH made a slow transition into a defensive meta.
Its no coincidence Adrian returns now.

I tried a somewhat defensive team and my matches took much longer than usual.
I learned to understand the mentality of defensive players.

Funbot28 said:
stall ... I still believe Stag Gar helped it out more then hurt it).
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All Stall players agree on that, understand ?


motherlove said:
you might want to have a peak at what people have been running in OMPL.
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Those OMPL replays are slightly outdated.
Gengarnite and Stakeout gone open up opportunities for defensive plays.

The longest match of all 15 was 123 turns with Flint vs Anna.
There is a good chance the finals will take long.

Here my BH OMPL statistic.

Turns / KO w/l = 1st KO win or lose / lead match up
Order of being played;
  1. 19 KOw 6-5 M-Ray vs MMY
  2. 36 KOw 4-1 MMY vs M-Aud
  3. 123 KOw 6-3 Cha vs Gen
  4. 55 KOw 5-0 Cha vs MMY
  5. 42 KOw 5-1 Mag vs Cha
  6. 43 KOw 6-0 Cha vs Cha
  7. 23 KOl 4-1 M-Dia vs Cha
  8. 26 KOl 4-0 Bulu vs M-Dia
  9. 46 KOw 3-0 Regi vs Cha
  10. 69 KOw 6-0 M-Gen vs P-Don (Illusion)
  11. 11 KOw 6-0 MMX vs P-Kyo
  12. 77 KOw 2-1 MMY vs Cha
  13. 42 KOl 4-3 Cha vs Sol
  14. 17 KOl 5-0 Tina vs M-Ray
  15. 28 KOw 3-0 Arceus vs MMY

morogrim said:
Tour teams and ladder teams are very different imo and are built with very different purposes in mind. .
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Ladder is testing and score racing.
Tour is making your opponent a present.

My latest tests, i dont recommend using;
M-Beedril got 2HKO through sub by Giratina Spectral Thief.
Excadrill cant 1HKO Giratina with +4 Sunsteel.
Ho-oh was always low on PP and beaten by Stealth Rock alone.

Going back to stalls heaviest nightmare.
 
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