-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter MZ
- Start date
This is my very first post on any Smogon thread, let alone the VR, so bear with me here.
Simipour: D -> C
I think it's criminal that this thing is ranked so poorly. It has a few helpful properties that set it apart from most of the other waters in the tier, and I feel as if a slight increase in ranking is in order.
Firstly, its great movepool and a boosting option in Nasty Plot allow it to hit harder than its base 98 offenses might suggest, and therefore makes it difficult to play around. With such options as Gunk Shot, Grass Knot, Focus Blast and Knock Off, Simipour can fill in nearly any gap that your team needs.
Secondly, its base 101 Speed, while underwhelming at times, isn't bad in the slightest, being able to outpace Lilligant, Jynx, Silvally, Todegemaru and Oricorio, among other things.
That being said, it falls victim to speed creep, mainly by things like Pyroar and Archeops, and that doesn't combo well with awful bulk. However, I still find it to be a useful addition to teams that can be prepared for such threats.
These are the sets I find to be the most effective:
Thanks for taking the time to read this ^^
Simipour: D -> C
I think it's criminal that this thing is ranked so poorly. It has a few helpful properties that set it apart from most of the other waters in the tier, and I feel as if a slight increase in ranking is in order.
Firstly, its great movepool and a boosting option in Nasty Plot allow it to hit harder than its base 98 offenses might suggest, and therefore makes it difficult to play around. With such options as Gunk Shot, Grass Knot, Focus Blast and Knock Off, Simipour can fill in nearly any gap that your team needs.
Secondly, its base 101 Speed, while underwhelming at times, isn't bad in the slightest, being able to outpace Lilligant, Jynx, Silvally, Todegemaru and Oricorio, among other things.
That being said, it falls victim to speed creep, mainly by things like Pyroar and Archeops, and that doesn't combo well with awful bulk. However, I still find it to be a useful addition to teams that can be prepared for such threats.
These are the sets I find to be the most effective:
Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off
Aside from being a passable special attacker, this set allows Simipour to break down certain pokes that most other waters seem to struggle with, particularly with crippling common Eviolite tanks with Knock Off, like Ferroseed and Clefairy. It's also super helpful for OHKO'ing Jynx, something that every special attacking water despises.
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off
Aside from being a passable special attacker, this set allows Simipour to break down certain pokes that most other waters seem to struggle with, particularly with crippling common Eviolite tanks with Knock Off, like Ferroseed and Clefairy. It's also super helpful for OHKO'ing Jynx, something that every special attacking water despises.
Simipour @ Waterium Z / Grassium Z / Fightinium Z
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Grass / Grass Knot / Focus Blast / Substitute
The Nasty Plot set is flexible to whatever your team needs. Throwing off a +2 Hydro Vortex can be a pain for your opponent to stomach, as even resists are hit hard. Grassium Z is handy for obliterating Lanturn, Gastrodon and Poliwrath, but without a Z Crystal, HP Grass will be dealing more damage. The former is important to note, as a +2 Bloom Doom will OHKO AV variants. Fightinium Z allows it to remove the likes of Ferroseed and Guzzlord with relative ease. If none of these options appeal to you, then Substitute can be used to deter Thunder Wave and Leech Seed, which would otherwise cripple Simipour.
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Grass / Grass Knot / Focus Blast / Substitute
The Nasty Plot set is flexible to whatever your team needs. Throwing off a +2 Hydro Vortex can be a pain for your opponent to stomach, as even resists are hit hard. Grassium Z is handy for obliterating Lanturn, Gastrodon and Poliwrath, but without a Z Crystal, HP Grass will be dealing more damage. The former is important to note, as a +2 Bloom Doom will OHKO AV variants. Fightinium Z allows it to remove the likes of Ferroseed and Guzzlord with relative ease. If none of these options appeal to you, then Substitute can be used to deter Thunder Wave and Leech Seed, which would otherwise cripple Simipour.
Alternatively, a Nasty Plot set with Gluttony and an Aguav Berry allows it to nullify hits from common priority users. However, Simipour is still very frail, and it's generally not worth sacrificing its power.
Thanks for taking the time to read this ^^
Last edited:
I agree with a lot other posters in the thread that suggest to rank Guzzlord higher. I think A at the very least, but A+ is more fitting I reckon. Terrifying coverage, great defensive utility, and good firepower, all make Guzzlord a very powerful threat.
Gumshoos is definitely deserving of an higher rank, at the very least C. The thing with Gumshoos is that it's a Normal type that basically crushes everything, much like Zangoose or Ursaring do, but not only Gumshoo's STAB is superior in every way thanks to Adaptability, it also gets U-Turn.
Pidgeot should just swap place with Gumshoos, mon's pretty bad.
Gumshoos is definitely deserving of an higher rank, at the very least C. The thing with Gumshoos is that it's a Normal type that basically crushes everything, much like Zangoose or Ursaring do, but not only Gumshoo's STAB is superior in every way thanks to Adaptability, it also gets U-Turn.
Pidgeot should just swap place with Gumshoos, mon's pretty bad.
I don't know about gumshoos, i can see the semi-niche, but why not just run like a stoutland? U-turn is such a minor niche when in reality, you wanna be spamming its stabs and scrappy + stouts base attack is only slightly weaker, I just can't see the real reason for wanting to run it on a competitive team ya know?
Also changed my mind on guzz, i think A rank is suitable right now after seeing it a lot in the recent games, with its bulk and versatility, breaking capabilities.
Disagree with dropping toge - it's actually low key amazing glue mon in the tier, with its utility and offensive sets, I really like it and should be kept where it is.
Agree with the majority of zard's post except dropping pilo / turtonator / rising of egg-a.
Turtonator has niche of setup fire type now zard is gone, pilo got better with zard going since it is not longer setup bait and egg-a is just underwhelming whenever i use it or see it, it just feels like it needs 2 items and can only nuke once unless you use your z-move.
Just my 2 cents
Also changed my mind on guzz, i think A rank is suitable right now after seeing it a lot in the recent games, with its bulk and versatility, breaking capabilities.
Disagree with dropping toge - it's actually low key amazing glue mon in the tier, with its utility and offensive sets, I really like it and should be kept where it is.
Agree with the majority of zard's post except dropping pilo / turtonator / rising of egg-a.
Turtonator has niche of setup fire type now zard is gone, pilo got better with zard going since it is not longer setup bait and egg-a is just underwhelming whenever i use it or see it, it just feels like it needs 2 items and can only nuke once unless you use your z-move.
Just my 2 cents
oh boi where do i get started, first off is Pidgeot.
Pidgeot was ranked a C despite literally doing nothing for the tier. This thing is not even considered a defogger, because of its poor base 75 defense and 70 special defense, along with taking damage because of type weakness to rocks. Whats even worse is Pidgeots base 80 attack which is really bad meaning it cant even be used as an offensive presence. Pidgeot lacks from its movepool, it has great stabs such as hurricane and brave bird, but it gets walled by anything rock or defensive in the tier such as the all so common Regirock. In conclusion, Pidgeot has absolutley nothing going for it, except its base 101 speed. The main reason i even mentioned Pidgeot is because its ranked over mons such as Bouffalant and Tangela which actually do something in the tier.
Pidgeot moves from C to unranked
Bouffalant was a mon ranked at D which is absolutely absurd. Bouffalant is a hard normal hitter in the tier, and what your probably thinking is we already have goose or stout for that. But bouffalant is different, not only does it have great bulk in 95 base defenses and hp, but it also has a whopping base 110 attack not only talking the hits, but dishing some out itself. Head charge + reckless ends lives, not only that but if you need a liligant counter boufalant gets sap sipper and is commonly ran with assault vest, what else could you ask for? and if for whatever reason your team is having problems with chatot/toucannan you can run soundproof on it (not recommended). It doesnt even end there, bouffalants coverage is insane, it has access to moves such as head charge, poison jab, super power, megahorn, iron head, earth quake, stone edge, outrage , wild charge and zen headbutt. All of the moves i just listed can do good against at least one troubling mon in the tier. Bouffalant can also use Swords dance which is scary, letting that thing sd up and rest could be the end of you late game.
Bouffalant moves from D to B
252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 145-172 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
-1 252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 174-205 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Miltank: 219-258 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bouffalant Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 194-230 (71.5 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bouffalant Superpower vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Miltank: 244-288 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pidgeot moves from C to unranked
Bouffalant moves from D to B
252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 145-172 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
-1 252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 174-205 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Miltank: 219-258 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bouffalant Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 194-230 (71.5 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bouffalant Superpower vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Miltank: 244-288 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Agree with the Pidgeot move, however, D to B is much too large of a jump for Bouffalant. Especially with all the normals in the tier like Kangaskhan, Stoutland, Zangoose, Komala, and Type: Null all of which have a niche over Bouf, I can't see any reason to use it over one of those. Yes Reckless Head Charge is a way of breaking, yes AV Sap Sipper is a decent Lilli check, but there are other things that do those jobs better. So I think it's fine where it's at.oh boi where do i get started, first off is Pidgeot.
Pidgeot was ranked a C despite literally doing nothing for the tier. This thing is not even considered a defogger, because of its poor base 75 defense and 70 special defense, along with taking damage because of type weakness to rocks. Whats even worse is Pidgeots base 80 attack which is really bad meaning it cant even be used as an offensive presence. Pidgeot lacks from its movepool, it has great stabs such as hurricane and brave bird, but it gets walled by anything rock or defensive in the tier such as the all so common Regirock. In conclusion, Pidgeot has absolutley nothing going for it, except its base 101 speed. The main reason i even mentioned Pidgeot is because its ranked over mons such as Bouffalant and Tangela which actually do something in the tier.
Pidgeot moves from C to unranked
Bouffalant was a mon ranked at D which is absolutely absurd. Bouffalant is a hard normal hitter in the tier, and what your probably thinking is we already have goose or stout for that. But bouffalant is different, not only does it have great bulk in 95 base defenses and hp, but it also has a whopping base 110 attack not only talking the hits, but dishing some out itself. Head charge + reckless ends lives, not only that but if you need a liligant counter boufalant gets sap sipper and is commonly ran with assault vest, what else could you ask for? and if for whatever reason your team is having problems with chatot/toucannan you can run soundproof on it (not recommended). It doesnt even end there, bouffalants coverage is insane, it has access to moves such as head charge, poison jab, super power, megahorn, iron head, earth quake, stone edge, outrage , wild charge and zen headbutt. All of the moves i just listed can do good against at least one troubling mon in the tier. Bouffalant can also use Swords dance which is scary, letting that thing sd up and rest could be the end of you late game.
Bouffalant moves from D to B
252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 145-172 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
-1 252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 174-205 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Miltank: 219-258 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bouffalant Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 194-230 (71.5 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bouffalant Superpower vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Miltank: 244-288 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aside from that, I'll do some of my own noms bc I've never really done them before and I feel like I've played enough of the meta now to get it. Sorry if I repeat, it's late, and I don't feel like digging through the rest of them.
I've wanted this mon to work but every time I try to use it, I find myself wanting Absol for its better coverage, therefore, I don't think they should be in the same rank and I feel Absol is in a good place.
Overall just a really underwhelming mon another form of hazard control weak to rocks except this one's STAB is really underwhelming. Plus it's beat by a lot of dark and fighting types (which it should check) because of coverage. Honestly I think it should be lower than C but seems like too big of a jump.
That's all I have for now, haven't really played around much with the stuff in lower ranks, but I'll possibly get back after the next big update.
Agree with the Pidgeot move, however, D to B is much too large of a jump for Bouffalant. Especially with all the normals in the tier like Kangaskhan, Stoutland, Zangoose, Komala, and Type: Null all of which have a niche over Bouf, I can't see any reason to use it over one of those. Yes Reckless Head Charge is a way of breaking, yes AV Sap Sipper is a decent Lilli check, but there are other things that do those jobs better. So I think it's fine where it's at.
Aside from that, I'll do some of my own noms bc I've never really done them before and I feel like I've played enough of the meta now to get it. Sorry if I repeat, it's late, and I don't feel like digging through the rest of them.
Raticate-A from B+ to B-
I've wanted this mon to work but every time I try to use it, I find myself wanting Absol for its better coverage, therefore, I don't think they should be in the same rank and I feel Absol is in a good place.
Togetic from B- to C
Overall just a really underwhelming mon another form of hazard control weak to rocks except this one's STAB is really underwhelming. Plus it's beat by a lot of dark and fighting types (which it should check) because of coverage. Honestly I think it should be lower than C but seems like too big of a jump.
That's all I have for now, haven't really played around much with the stuff in lower ranks, but I'll possibly get back after the next big update.
Faticate doesn't need the coverage Absol has because it has STAB Double-Edge which hit harder than Absol Knock Off (assuming they both run the same item). Faticate also has U-Turn which make it better than Absol for AoA sets.
Togetic isn't good at checking Dark and Fighting type BUT it beat Dragon type (Exeggutor, Guzzlord) and Grass type (Lilligant, special Shiftry and Ludicolo). It also check Absol lacking Iron Tail, Primeape and Passimian locking into Earthquake / CC, Torterra lacking Stone Edge, Golurk lacking Stone Edge and Ice Punch. It isn't a bad defogger because it's immune to T-Spikes and Spikes.
Just a few notes- we voted on literally everything here plus a few more noms. That being said, there was a ton to get through and the meta is still changing from the effects of the zard ban + PUPL developments. I wouldn't repost an old nomination and absolutely nothing else, but if you're making a post and want us to, say, bring up Tangela again or something then that's fine. Also in the future I'd like to do reasoning for all the noms or maybe break down how the council voted and how close things were to point through, but again the volume of these noms made that impossible. Just know that more stuff is being considered before you post asking exactly how many people didn't want Tangela moving up and why. Anyway, the update:
Also when OU banned Arena Trap I unranked Trapinch and forgot to post about it oops!
Stoutland C+ to B
Abomasnow B+ to A-
Oricorio-Sensu B to A-
Swanna B to B+
Zangoose B to B+
Clefairy B- to B
Golem C+ to B-
Articuno C to C+
Aggron B- to B
Floatzel B to B+
Togetic B- to C
Pawniard C- to C
Palossand C+ to B-
Lurantis B- to B
Pyukumuku D to C-
Vullaby C+ to C
Pidgeot C to Unranked
Fearow C to Unranked
Guzzlord B to A-
Ludicolo B to B+
Throh B- to B
Huntail Unranked to C-
Silvally-Ghost C+ to B-
Raichu-A B+ to A-
Murkrow Unranked to C+
Gurdurr A to A+
Primeape A- to A
Piloswine A+ to A
Jynx A to A+
Qwilfish A to A+
Regirock A- to A
Turtonator B- to C+
Manectric B- to C+
Kingler C- to D
Gumshoos D to Unranked (apologies LuckOverSkill)
Oricorio-Baile D to Unranked
Simisear D to Unranked
Monferno D to Unranked
Granbull B+ to B
Jumpluff C to C+
Metang Unranked to C-
Passimian B+ to B
Golem-Alola C- to D
Grumpig Unranked to C
Abomasnow B+ to A-
Oricorio-Sensu B to A-
Swanna B to B+
Zangoose B to B+
Clefairy B- to B
Golem C+ to B-
Articuno C to C+
Aggron B- to B
Floatzel B to B+
Togetic B- to C
Pawniard C- to C
Palossand C+ to B-
Lurantis B- to B
Pyukumuku D to C-
Vullaby C+ to C
Pidgeot C to Unranked
Fearow C to Unranked
Guzzlord B to A-
Ludicolo B to B+
Throh B- to B
Huntail Unranked to C-
Silvally-Ghost C+ to B-
Raichu-A B+ to A-
Murkrow Unranked to C+
Gurdurr A to A+
Primeape A- to A
Piloswine A+ to A
Jynx A to A+
Qwilfish A to A+
Regirock A- to A
Turtonator B- to C+
Manectric B- to C+
Kingler C- to D
Gumshoos D to Unranked (apologies LuckOverSkill)
Oricorio-Baile D to Unranked
Simisear D to Unranked
Monferno D to Unranked
Granbull B+ to B
Jumpluff C to C+
Metang Unranked to C-
Passimian B+ to B
Golem-Alola C- to D
Grumpig Unranked to C
Okay, so at this point in time I don't actually have replays for this mon, for very obvious reasons, however...
Eevee from Unranked to either D or C-
Eevee @ Eevium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Last Resort
- Stored Power
- Hyper Voice / Work Up
- Substitute / Hidden Power Fighting / Work Up
Eevee is something that I've tested a lot in this gen, and I mean, a lot. I first gave it a go in NU and it performed surprisingly well actually, able to break a lot of the relevant mons in the meta; however it was a tad bit slow and weak for NU, which is not the case here. Even though it's pretty much a one-trick-pony, it does that one trick well enough for it to warrant a rank in my opinion. It's basically able to clean teams mid to late game with a combination of Stored Power (which has a BP of 220 when boosted) and Hyper Voice, allowing it to break through a lot of relevant walls like Lanturn and such. Substitute allows it to play 50/50s with status users, which is nice, and allows it to set up very easily if it was Memento'd into the previous turn. I've seen both Work Up (s/o Lax for the idea) and Hidden Power Fighting put in work (get it?) as they allow it to break things that the common set cannot, for example Work Up allows you to actually break Type:Null with Stored Power and Work Up + Substitute allows you to punish a lot of bulkier builds that lack direct counters like Sableye. Even though this set uses a - Attack nature, I would like to point out how useful it is at breaking things like Munchlax and other specially inclined walls even with minimal investment; Eevee also wants all the bulk it can get access to. I would like to point out that it also has a nice speed tier, being able to outpace anything at +1 that has a speed tier lower than 91. It does have issues however, especially versus HO and things such as Primeape, which is why I'm not nomming this thing any higher.
Eevee from Unranked to either D or C-
Eevee @ Eevium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Last Resort
- Stored Power
- Hyper Voice / Work Up
- Substitute / Hidden Power Fighting / Work Up
Eevee is something that I've tested a lot in this gen, and I mean, a lot. I first gave it a go in NU and it performed surprisingly well actually, able to break a lot of the relevant mons in the meta; however it was a tad bit slow and weak for NU, which is not the case here. Even though it's pretty much a one-trick-pony, it does that one trick well enough for it to warrant a rank in my opinion. It's basically able to clean teams mid to late game with a combination of Stored Power (which has a BP of 220 when boosted) and Hyper Voice, allowing it to break through a lot of relevant walls like Lanturn and such. Substitute allows it to play 50/50s with status users, which is nice, and allows it to set up very easily if it was Memento'd into the previous turn. I've seen both Work Up (s/o Lax for the idea) and Hidden Power Fighting put in work (get it?) as they allow it to break things that the common set cannot, for example Work Up allows you to actually break Type:Null with Stored Power and Work Up + Substitute allows you to punish a lot of bulkier builds that lack direct counters like Sableye. Even though this set uses a - Attack nature, I would like to point out how useful it is at breaking things like Munchlax and other specially inclined walls even with minimal investment; Eevee also wants all the bulk it can get access to. I would like to point out that it also has a nice speed tier, being able to outpace anything at +1 that has a speed tier lower than 91. It does have issues however, especially versus HO and things such as Primeape, which is why I'm not nomming this thing any higher.
Last edited:
Trevenant: Unranked -> C-/D
Tiers haven't been too kind to Trevenant since its debut in XY. However, I believe it can hold its own in the PU tier. Because of higher attack, speed and a better movepool, Trevenant can be played less passively than his younger sister, Gourgeist-XL. Trevenant carries over Gourgeist's passive recovery in the form of Harvest + Sitrus Berry, but in addition, it can now heal off Paralysis and Burns with Natural Cure. Thanks to Trick, it can also pass with running a Banded set. Having a strong STAB Wood Hammer is a solid addition, as well as having Earthquake to deal damage to common Steel and Fire switch-ins, will'o'wisp to cripple physical attackers, and Horn Leech to constantly keep its health in the green. While niche, it has the option of Z-Forest's Curse to boost all of its stats by one, making it harder to stomach and harder to take out.
These additions are why I think Trevenant deserves a spot in the VR.
I think Gastrodon could go up to A- just due to its amazing ability to take on many top threats. It can switch into Archeops (which is huge on its own), (phys) Skuntank, (phys based) Carracosta, Scarf Primeape, Golurk, and Hitmonchan, along with others, which is pretty versatile given how different plenty of these mons are. Even with a physically defensive spread it can even check Raichu-A and certain Magmortar spreads. Its main issues are its passivity, however many of the top set up sweepers have to think twice about trying to set up (eg jynx gets bopped by eq, musharna hates toxic), but i think the sheer number of mons it checks makes up for that.
I also feel like Guzzlord could go up to A. Though I was originally hesitant to move it up so far during the first round of nominations, recently, especcially in PUPL, it has become clear that Guzzlord is such a dominant Pokemon. Ultimately it comes down to its ability to easily find opportunities to come in and completely nuke something, which is amazing given it 100% switch ins are pretty much limited to Munchlax and Type: Null. Just looking through S and top A ranks, Guzzlord can 1v1 the majority of Pokemon there, which is so amazing when it also has a solid defensive presence. Bulkier sets are also great at more reliably coming into some of those top pokemon and can even take incredibly strong hits like Magmortars AoP or boosted SSSS from Oricorio.
Gourgeist-XL is no longer good enough for B+ IMO, as for starters, its niche in checking Fighting-type wallbreakers isn't as useful now that their usage has really gone down and we have many Pokemon that can check more common fighting type sets like AV chan and scarf Primeape. Next, its quite passive and can let in breakers like Guzzlord and Magmortar, while both Ferroseed and Qwilfish can spike on it. Overall it feels harder to fit on teams, especially as is it is more easily taken advantage of compared to other defensive mons. I know this might seem weird given that i just nommed gastro up, and gourgeist checks similar mons to gastro, but Gastrodon is much less vulnerable to top pokemon in addition to checking on of the hardest pokemon in the tier to switch into (archeops).
Otheriwise lower down, I think Frostom could get a jump up. Lanturn usage has gone down quite a bit recently leaving a lot of teams quite vulnerable to BoltBeam coverage. Though AV Magmortar and chan usage may still be quite high, the former isn't too hard to wear down with srocks, and the latter can die to a blizzard plus Subzero Slammer depending on roles, or gets crippled by WilloWisp. Frostom does have a fairly good mu vs plenty of the common bulkier pokemon rn, and though its still not quite what it was last gen, I think recent meta shifts (ie less lanturn) justify it going up to at least C plus.
I really don't see a reason to keep Bellossom on the VR. After trying it out I found that there were very few times its extra bulk over lilligant came in advantage, especially when most of these times Lilligant wouldn't be in this situation due to its better Speed. Bellossom needs a good amount of Speed just to jump past the 115 (or at least 112) speed tier after 2 Quiver Dances, and then if you invest EVs in defense rather than SpA you will need about 3 QD to be offensively threatening, but you will still be fairly vulnerable from the physical side. Ultimately Lilligant is much more effective and much more efficient than Bellossom, so I see no reason in using it especially with Lilligant being fairly well prepared for.
Lastly Sawsbuck deserves to be ranked somewhere as it is usable on sun teams. Its surprisingly hard to take on as if it gets an SD up Double Edge hits like a truck, and is fairly unfazed by mons which can take on special sun sweepers like Guzzlord. C rank fits it well, as like exeggutor its quite vulnerable to priority, and isn't a staple like Victreebel (so shouldn't be higher), but it has an advantage in not being RKd by common Scarfers, unlike eggy.
The VR is looking overall really good, though C plus and C look very crowded, its quite hard to wade stuff out as most of them are as bad as each other tbh.
I also feel like Guzzlord could go up to A. Though I was originally hesitant to move it up so far during the first round of nominations, recently, especcially in PUPL, it has become clear that Guzzlord is such a dominant Pokemon. Ultimately it comes down to its ability to easily find opportunities to come in and completely nuke something, which is amazing given it 100% switch ins are pretty much limited to Munchlax and Type: Null. Just looking through S and top A ranks, Guzzlord can 1v1 the majority of Pokemon there, which is so amazing when it also has a solid defensive presence. Bulkier sets are also great at more reliably coming into some of those top pokemon and can even take incredibly strong hits like Magmortars AoP or boosted SSSS from Oricorio.
Gourgeist-XL is no longer good enough for B+ IMO, as for starters, its niche in checking Fighting-type wallbreakers isn't as useful now that their usage has really gone down and we have many Pokemon that can check more common fighting type sets like AV chan and scarf Primeape. Next, its quite passive and can let in breakers like Guzzlord and Magmortar, while both Ferroseed and Qwilfish can spike on it. Overall it feels harder to fit on teams, especially as is it is more easily taken advantage of compared to other defensive mons. I know this might seem weird given that i just nommed gastro up, and gourgeist checks similar mons to gastro, but Gastrodon is much less vulnerable to top pokemon in addition to checking on of the hardest pokemon in the tier to switch into (archeops).
Otheriwise lower down, I think Frostom could get a jump up. Lanturn usage has gone down quite a bit recently leaving a lot of teams quite vulnerable to BoltBeam coverage. Though AV Magmortar and chan usage may still be quite high, the former isn't too hard to wear down with srocks, and the latter can die to a blizzard plus Subzero Slammer depending on roles, or gets crippled by WilloWisp. Frostom does have a fairly good mu vs plenty of the common bulkier pokemon rn, and though its still not quite what it was last gen, I think recent meta shifts (ie less lanturn) justify it going up to at least C plus.
I really don't see a reason to keep Bellossom on the VR. After trying it out I found that there were very few times its extra bulk over lilligant came in advantage, especially when most of these times Lilligant wouldn't be in this situation due to its better Speed. Bellossom needs a good amount of Speed just to jump past the 115 (or at least 112) speed tier after 2 Quiver Dances, and then if you invest EVs in defense rather than SpA you will need about 3 QD to be offensively threatening, but you will still be fairly vulnerable from the physical side. Ultimately Lilligant is much more effective and much more efficient than Bellossom, so I see no reason in using it especially with Lilligant being fairly well prepared for.
Lastly Sawsbuck deserves to be ranked somewhere as it is usable on sun teams. Its surprisingly hard to take on as if it gets an SD up Double Edge hits like a truck, and is fairly unfazed by mons which can take on special sun sweepers like Guzzlord. C rank fits it well, as like exeggutor its quite vulnerable to priority, and isn't a staple like Victreebel (so shouldn't be higher), but it has an advantage in not being RKd by common Scarfers, unlike eggy.
The VR is looking overall really good, though C plus and C look very crowded, its quite hard to wade stuff out as most of them are as bad as each other tbh.
Kingler: D ---> C- or C
Similar to Simipour, while not the best Water type in the tier, Kingler has at least some distinguishable niches to it's name that could procure it a ranking in C. Kingler is tied with Flareon, Beartic, Ursaring and Absol for the fifth highest Attack stat in PU, sitting at a huge 130. It actually has the same speed as Absol, too. What distinguishes Kingler from Absol is a ludicrously powerful Crabhammer, along with some other fine offensive tools such as Superpower, Knock Off, Rock Slide and Return. It also a nice defense stat to boot, contrasting it further from Absol's extreme frailty.
Here are two sets that I have invented.
Double Dance
Kingler @ Waterium Z/Fightinium Z
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off/Superpower
Simple, really. The idea is to get in on a wall or physical attacker Kingler can take, set up, and kill as much as you can. You can choose between Waterium Z for a ludicrously powerful Water nuke that does big damage on even resists:
+2 252 Atk Kingler Hydro Vortex (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 333-392 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Hyper Cutter prevents Attack drops)
+2 252 Atk Kingler Hydro Vortex (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 150-177 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or you can switch out Knock Off for Superpower and give it Fightinium Z to blitz past checks after set up:
+2 252 Atk Kingler All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 Def Lanturn: 530-624 (125.2 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kingler All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 379-446 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Choice Band
Kingler @ Choice Band
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Filler
My personal favorite set. Unlike Double Dance, this one gives you immediate breaking power. Go take a look at the VR, and realize how much A tier stuff Kingler can wreck with this set:
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 205-243 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 273-322 (97.1 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 216-255 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 170-201 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 714-842 (121.6 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Despite all the praise I've heaped it with, Kingler has some noticeable flaws. While it's physical bulk is admirable, it's special bulk is absolutely pitiful, causing it to take huge damage from even resisted special hits. And considering how prominent special attackers are, that's a huge flaw. Sure, nothing can switch into Kingler, but it can't switch in on much either (However, it does outspeed some special attackers like Guzzlord, Drampa and Abomasnow, so there's that). Kingler may not be super duper awesome, but like Simipour, it has enough niches to where D simply isn't fair for it.
Last edited:
Warning: tons of noms upcoming
From A- to A
Hitmonchan should rise because of how threatening it is offensively. Fighting types are great right now, and Chan is no exceptions. Unlike other fighting types, Drain Punch gives it much-needed sustain through the match, and it's able to nail resists very hard with Life Orb and Iron Fist-boosted Ice Punches, while the because of its two would have to lock themselves in an easy-to-take-advantage-of move. Hitmochan is also able to support its team by spinning away hazards, notably pairing well with mons that are weak to rocks like Oricoriuo-Sensu, aswell as having a good mathup versus common rockers itself due its Fighting STAB. Mach Punch also helps with its speed issue by being able to revenge threats like Stoutland under sand and Shiftry under sun. That's not mentioning BU sets, which, although receive competition from Gurdurr, have a niche in better speed (therefore less reliance on Mach Punch), suprise factor and more imediate power. Overall, A- is hugely underselling Hitmonchan's capabilities as a whole and it should definitely rise.
From A- to A
Pyroar is easily one of the best Fire-types in the tier, tied with Magmortar, after Charizard left. While it's not as offensively threatening as Zard was, Pyroar is able to hold its own with its great and spammable dual STAB, pressuring a lot common fire checks in balance (such as Thick Fat Miltank, which is 2hkoed by Specs Hyper Voice). It's very difficult to offensively check too because of how fast it is. Being prone to Archeops and rocks weak sucks, but Pyroar is such a good wallbreaker and lost its main competition so it should rise.
From B+ to B
Absol is in a bad position right now. There are few reasons you'd actually use it over Raticate-A:being a dick and complaining about misses Knock Off and, to an extent, Iron Tail and Fire Blast. Those two hardly matter though, since Raticate has Normal STAB to hit Dark resists, aswell as a better Dark STAB on the long run (Colbur Berry, Z-Moves and Silvally-Forms are annoying for Knock Off users), not to mention a sightly improved bulk and speed. Overall, it just doesn't feel right to have Absol in the same ranking as Faticate, and it show definitely drop.
&
These two should swap place
While Manectric is significantly stronger than Zebstrika and has access to Switcheroo to an extent (although it barely uses it, even in choice sets), Zebby's speed is just huge in this meta. Being able to outspeed Archeops, +2 Carracosta (non-AJ variants) and Floatzel is very important since the former two are some of the best and most threatening mons in the tier. Sap Sipper is also cool so Zebs can act as a soft check to Lilligant; Sap Sipper also means it can choose between one Electric immunity and Grass immunity. In a nutshell, the speed is important this meta and Zebstrika should be higher than Manectric.
From C- to D/Unranked
Honestly, Relicanth is just horribly outclassed right now. Rock Polish and Defensive sets are bad Carracostas, while CB now receives competition from the much-stronger-and-bulkier Aggron, and even Rain Lead sets are outclassed by Mesprit with its ability to set Rocks + Rain Dance just like Reli did but with the added Healing Wish utility to give a sweeper another chance to wreck havoc. Relicanth has no niche over other staples this meta and its ranking should reflect that.
From C- to C
While it receives competition from Carracosta, Huntail sets itself apart with its much better speed and access to Sucker Punch. It's speed means only Scarfers and really fast (and uncommon) mons like Electrode and Ninjask can revenge it, but Sucker Punch makes up for that, OHKOing a lot of common Scarfers after rocks at +2. Water Veil also helps Huntail circunvent things like Sableye and let it set up on Signal Beam Prinplup for example, giving it notable niches. However, the opportunity cost in not running Costa is big, since Costa can also sponge hits mid-game before it sets up, while Huntail can't really do nothing through the match but clean. For that reason. it should rise no higher than C.
From A- to A
Hitmonchan should rise because of how threatening it is offensively. Fighting types are great right now, and Chan is no exceptions. Unlike other fighting types, Drain Punch gives it much-needed sustain through the match, and it's able to nail resists very hard with Life Orb and Iron Fist-boosted Ice Punches, while the because of its two would have to lock themselves in an easy-to-take-advantage-of move. Hitmochan is also able to support its team by spinning away hazards, notably pairing well with mons that are weak to rocks like Oricoriuo-Sensu, aswell as having a good mathup versus common rockers itself due its Fighting STAB. Mach Punch also helps with its speed issue by being able to revenge threats like Stoutland under sand and Shiftry under sun. That's not mentioning BU sets, which, although receive competition from Gurdurr, have a niche in better speed (therefore less reliance on Mach Punch), suprise factor and more imediate power. Overall, A- is hugely underselling Hitmonchan's capabilities as a whole and it should definitely rise.
From A- to A
Pyroar is easily one of the best Fire-types in the tier, tied with Magmortar, after Charizard left. While it's not as offensively threatening as Zard was, Pyroar is able to hold its own with its great and spammable dual STAB, pressuring a lot common fire checks in balance (such as Thick Fat Miltank, which is 2hkoed by Specs Hyper Voice). It's very difficult to offensively check too because of how fast it is. Being prone to Archeops and rocks weak sucks, but Pyroar is such a good wallbreaker and lost its main competition so it should rise.
From B+ to B
Absol is in a bad position right now. There are few reasons you'd actually use it over Raticate-A:
These two should swap place
While Manectric is significantly stronger than Zebstrika and has access to Switcheroo to an extent (although it barely uses it, even in choice sets), Zebby's speed is just huge in this meta. Being able to outspeed Archeops, +2 Carracosta (non-AJ variants) and Floatzel is very important since the former two are some of the best and most threatening mons in the tier. Sap Sipper is also cool so Zebs can act as a soft check to Lilligant; Sap Sipper also means it can choose between one Electric immunity and Grass immunity. In a nutshell, the speed is important this meta and Zebstrika should be higher than Manectric.
From C- to D/Unranked
Honestly, Relicanth is just horribly outclassed right now. Rock Polish and Defensive sets are bad Carracostas, while CB now receives competition from the much-stronger-and-bulkier Aggron, and even Rain Lead sets are outclassed by Mesprit with its ability to set Rocks + Rain Dance just like Reli did but with the added Healing Wish utility to give a sweeper another chance to wreck havoc. Relicanth has no niche over other staples this meta and its ranking should reflect that.
From C- to C
While it receives competition from Carracosta, Huntail sets itself apart with its much better speed and access to Sucker Punch. It's speed means only Scarfers and really fast (and uncommon) mons like Electrode and Ninjask can revenge it, but Sucker Punch makes up for that, OHKOing a lot of common Scarfers after rocks at +2. Water Veil also helps Huntail circunvent things like Sableye and let it set up on Signal Beam Prinplup for example, giving it notable niches. However, the opportunity cost in not running Costa is big, since Costa can also sponge hits mid-game before it sets up, while Huntail can't really do nothing through the match but clean. For that reason. it should rise no higher than C.
hitmonchan should rise to a, it is in my opinion the best fighting type in the tier after gurdurr. I feel a- is a bit low for a pokemon that can be splashed on so many teams so easily as its the only fighting type that can switch onto the many special attacking threats. this is because of the high special bulk when running av, which allows it to even take a supereffective hit head on, along with a way to recover health(drain punch) by feasting on frail mons it's supposed to check. also it's one of the few mons in the tier that learn rapid spin and is arguably one of the best pokemon at removing hazards because of its qualities i stated before. one quality i havent mentioned is its power: 105 base atk allow it to get good health sustain with drain punch and run mach punch which is a great rkilling tool at times or just helps if you dont finish a foe right off with drain or ice punch. Hitmonchan is also versatile, as it can run a more offensive set with the usage of life orb: this set loses durability and tankiness but makes his damage even more hard to sustain, also allowing it to break through stuff that would be a problem to its av variants. also its important to note that many of the stuff that can switch into this doesnt carry reliable recovery (to name some qwilfish, mesprit, weezing unless z haze), so if you play your matchup well enough hitmonchan can become a real pain in the ass
something else would be mr.mime to c+. mr mime doesnt really have a good enough niche now that the tier has gotten some valid psychic types. it is worse than mesprit when running a choice scarf set, and most of the time worse than jynx when running a nasty plot set. fairy type stab is something but not really that useful, it still gets bopped by sucker punch from dark types. focus blast is a good option for coverage but the only thing it hits that ice beam doesnt is like probopass lol. compare these two plusses with what jynx has over mime which is: lovely kiss, huge to net setup opportunities, and you can also run it with z move, dry skin which makes it get even more setup opportunities on water-types, more speed which makes it faster than oricorio and tie with grass types and haunter, and also ice beam which provides arguably more coverage than dazzling gleam + fblast together.
lastly palossand could see a rise to b. b- is an understatement to palossands physical bulk and ability to switch into and stall out with toxic or directly kill physical threats, especially fighting types and stuff such as archeops. palossand is the 2nd best defensive ghost type behind sableye, but in some occasions i see it working better. its ghost typing negates rapid spin and all fighting types, and with colbur you can even stall out gurdurr or 3hko it with earth power. its main niche over sableye is its sheer physical bulk/high amount of hp and ground typing, which allow it to directly switch into stuff sableye cant such as archeops, aggron, lycanrock, pinsir and other physical attackers. also it doesnt suffer getting chipped by u-turn which is ran by primeape and passimian, and instead rocky helmet makes it extremely easy to wear down these two. not much to say here, i just found palossand to be a valid sableye replacement and mon overall on defensive-ish teams.
something else would be mr.mime to c+. mr mime doesnt really have a good enough niche now that the tier has gotten some valid psychic types. it is worse than mesprit when running a choice scarf set, and most of the time worse than jynx when running a nasty plot set. fairy type stab is something but not really that useful, it still gets bopped by sucker punch from dark types. focus blast is a good option for coverage but the only thing it hits that ice beam doesnt is like probopass lol. compare these two plusses with what jynx has over mime which is: lovely kiss, huge to net setup opportunities, and you can also run it with z move, dry skin which makes it get even more setup opportunities on water-types, more speed which makes it faster than oricorio and tie with grass types and haunter, and also ice beam which provides arguably more coverage than dazzling gleam + fblast together.
lastly palossand could see a rise to b. b- is an understatement to palossands physical bulk and ability to switch into and stall out with toxic or directly kill physical threats, especially fighting types and stuff such as archeops. palossand is the 2nd best defensive ghost type behind sableye, but in some occasions i see it working better. its ghost typing negates rapid spin and all fighting types, and with colbur you can even stall out gurdurr or 3hko it with earth power. its main niche over sableye is its sheer physical bulk/high amount of hp and ground typing, which allow it to directly switch into stuff sableye cant such as archeops, aggron, lycanrock, pinsir and other physical attackers. also it doesnt suffer getting chipped by u-turn which is ran by primeape and passimian, and instead rocky helmet makes it extremely easy to wear down these two. not much to say here, i just found palossand to be a valid sableye replacement and mon overall on defensive-ish teams.
Nominating Aggron for B+
I personally feel that Aggron is deserving of the B+ rank for a few reasons. First, it has two great spammable STAB moves, which are Head Smash and Heavy Slam, with Head Smash in particular being very spammable due to Rock Head, giving it a great niche as an offensive rocker. Second, Aggron has a great match up against opposing Stealth Rock setters, such as Regirock, Miltank, and Archeops lacking Earthquake. For example, Miltank lacking Seismic Toss can't hope to scratch Aggron and, while Regirock lacking the (as far as I can tell) rare Earthquake can't really do much to Aggron besides paralyze it with Thunder Wave. Third, Aggron has great synergy with some really popular Pokemon in the current meta, like Oricorio Sensu and Abomasnow. For example, Aggron can destroy opposing Rock-types, while Oricorio can check threats to Aggron, such as Lilligant and Hitmonchan. I know that some people would argue that Aggron can't do well due to Hitmonchan, Primeape, and Gurrdur being so prevalent, and while it is true that they all check Aggron, I feel that this isn't enough to drag Aggron down. To sum it up, I feel Aggron should rise due to its sheer power, ability to set Stealth Rock reliably, good match ups against other Stealth Rock setters, and synergy with popular Pokemon in the current meta. (Two notes: First, this doesn't take the Hariyama re-suspect into account, due to the fact that Hariyama is not guaranteed to stay or go. Second, this is my first VR post, so please tell me if I did anything wrong.)
Last edited:
agreed 100% with aggron moving up. cb is one of the hardest-hitting pokemon in the tier due to its absurdly high bp moves, and thanks to its typing and bulk, it has a lot of opportunities to come in against the likes of bulky mesprit, musharna, physical skuntank, and miltank and start plowing throw teams with its dual stab. yeah, fighting types are an issue, but for the most part they don't switch in well either (gurdurr 2hko'd by heavy slam and mach punch only does about half, while all of the other fighting types bar phys def poliwrath just dies pretty easily). unless you run one of ferro, gastro, palossand, or torterra, you'll generally be pretty hard pressed in finding a decent switch in vs it, and even all but gastrodon can be handled by the appropriate coverage move. sr lead also has a good matchup against the most common rocker in the tier and still hits pretty hard and can mess with bulky stuff with taunt.
eelektross should also move up to about b. being able to check archeops as an offensive mon alone is amazing, but in general its in a pretty good spot in this meta, with its av set abusing its great coverage for an electric-type and ability to pivot into pokemon such as gastro, duggy-a, qwilfish, oricorios, and piloswine and put in a lot of work with its offensive utility. being immune to spikes/toxic spikes in this meta is also a major bonus, giving it many more opportunities to come in and put in work. haven't tried specs but i'm sure it's a decent breaker who can volt switch around easily because nobody switches in on their electric-immune vs eel. overall, pretty solid mon rn.
i think weezing should drop to a. it's still good, but it honestly just lacks the consistently that qwilfish often offers for teams, as its competitor has more hazard utility and a generally better defensive typing and ability barring weezing's ability to check primeape a bit better. having no ability to absorb toxic spikes as a poison type is also pretty bad, as unless you're using skuntank literally every time you run this, you clash with a lot of stuff typing-wise, giving qwil more splashability. speaking of skuntank, qwil also takes that on better. due to qwil and archeops' presence, weezing is pretty much forced to run tbolt as its main filler option or otherwise they just take advantage of it fairly effortlessly (arch if running taunt). qwilfish is also not nearly as bait to wallbreakers and spinners/defoggers coming in and taking advantage of it due to its ability to go offensive with waterium z and run stuff like fast explosion (i know hjad likes to pull this out) to deter their efforts. overall, i just feel that qwilfish is generally just the better and more customizable option for teams in this meta unless you really need a ground immunity and better primeape answer.
eelektross should also move up to about b. being able to check archeops as an offensive mon alone is amazing, but in general its in a pretty good spot in this meta, with its av set abusing its great coverage for an electric-type and ability to pivot into pokemon such as gastro, duggy-a, qwilfish, oricorios, and piloswine and put in a lot of work with its offensive utility. being immune to spikes/toxic spikes in this meta is also a major bonus, giving it many more opportunities to come in and put in work. haven't tried specs but i'm sure it's a decent breaker who can volt switch around easily because nobody switches in on their electric-immune vs eel. overall, pretty solid mon rn.
i think weezing should drop to a. it's still good, but it honestly just lacks the consistently that qwilfish often offers for teams, as its competitor has more hazard utility and a generally better defensive typing and ability barring weezing's ability to check primeape a bit better. having no ability to absorb toxic spikes as a poison type is also pretty bad, as unless you're using skuntank literally every time you run this, you clash with a lot of stuff typing-wise, giving qwil more splashability. speaking of skuntank, qwil also takes that on better. due to qwil and archeops' presence, weezing is pretty much forced to run tbolt as its main filler option or otherwise they just take advantage of it fairly effortlessly (arch if running taunt). qwilfish is also not nearly as bait to wallbreakers and spinners/defoggers coming in and taking advantage of it due to its ability to go offensive with waterium z and run stuff like fast explosion (i know hjad likes to pull this out) to deter their efforts. overall, i just feel that qwilfish is generally just the better and more customizable option for teams in this meta unless you really need a ground immunity and better primeape answer.
Last edited:
I actually used bellsom on a team trying to abuse tailwind and bellsom definitely has usable bulk over lil but the biggest selling point to me would be moonblast as coverage with hp ground is actually pretty sick, the only target it can't hurt I found was weezing and You have to use Z-dream eater as lil to get past that anyhow
But bellsom has the bulk to to set-up kill once once and switch out if needs(and if no T-spikes are out) then set up again later
Its niche and I don't think it'd work on Sun teams either to patch up it's speed(lacks weatherball to keep it competitive with other grass types)
Few notable targets at +1 for both bellossom hits better, speed doesn't make a difference or bulk does:
Skuntank(blossom can live max attack poison jab, 2 hit kill max bulk or 1 hit kill no bulk, lill is one more hit for both, so hard counter if sleep is used)
Gurdurr, 1hk if they invest in attack, but avoids 2 hk lill has
Magmortar, assasult vest with SpA and speed is 2 hk but has to worry about choice scarf
Exeggutor-a And guzzlord are completely nuked
Miltank is kind of based on is it thick fat or sap sipper, then bellosom does better
Hitmonchan dies one hit unless vested, bellosom lives an ice punch able to use life orb a 2nd time
Like it blows bulky fighting types and dragons out of the water is the biggest use
But bellsom has the bulk to to set-up kill once once and switch out if needs(and if no T-spikes are out) then set up again later
Its niche and I don't think it'd work on Sun teams either to patch up it's speed(lacks weatherball to keep it competitive with other grass types)
Few notable targets at +1 for both bellossom hits better, speed doesn't make a difference or bulk does:
Skuntank(blossom can live max attack poison jab, 2 hit kill max bulk or 1 hit kill no bulk, lill is one more hit for both, so hard counter if sleep is used)
Gurdurr, 1hk if they invest in attack, but avoids 2 hk lill has
Magmortar, assasult vest with SpA and speed is 2 hk but has to worry about choice scarf
Exeggutor-a And guzzlord are completely nuked
Miltank is kind of based on is it thick fat or sap sipper, then bellosom does better
Hitmonchan dies one hit unless vested, bellosom lives an ice punch able to use life orb a 2nd time
Like it blows bulky fighting types and dragons out of the water is the biggest use
Last edited:
Nominating Pinsir For A-
Pinsir is extremely slept on in the current metagame. In a metagame dominated by fighting types, pinsir becomes an exceptional support wallbreaker.
Let's take Gurdurr for example (the best partner for pinsir imo). The most common type resistances people are running to check gurdurr are poison and psychic. Lets look at how pinsir handles both of these types.
Psychic Types
Poison Types
I won't go in depth since it's all speculation, but I predict that pinsir will become even more splashable as a breaker if Hariyama rejoins the tier.
Pinsir on its own:
Pinsir can also function as a choice scarf user, and also has a niche as the only viable moxi user in the tier.
Scarf pinsir should be played almost opposite to how LO pinsir operates. Meaning that the idea is to use mons like gurdurr, lilligant etc to force your opponent to let their flying and fire type mons to take damage so that Pinsir can spam an attack and snowball it's way to victory. (Knock off support is mandatory IMO)
An almost perfectly ideal movepool grants pinsir the capability to tear apart a multiplicity of commonly seen cores in the metagame. Knock off for added team support + ghost type reliability can be used. Stone edge can be used, but relies mostly on prediction as the majority of mons in the tier hit hardest by edge are faster than pinsir.
Z-Me First has incredible sweeping potential if played right. Getting a +2 speed boost with a +1 attack boost lets you break through and clean up entire teams if they do not have a fast scarf user. This can allow you to bluff a choice scarf and also have your opponents mislead into thinking another team mate is the z-move user. a +2 speed boost also allows you to run Adamant, which hits like a dump truck at +1.
To summarize, the fact that pinsir can naturally fall in line as a teammate for some of the tiers best Pokemon in addition to it being a forced to be reckoned with on its own is why I believe that pinsir deserves to be ranked as A-
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-640833711
This was a game vs a challenger on PS. Unfortunately I used gurdurr more indirectly this game (forced him to switch and capatalized on it with my own double) so I can't showcase it sweeping after pinsir breaks down the team. However, you can see how pinsir has the means to break through a team with 4 "bug checks" (Weezing, Qwill, Gurdurr & Pyroar)
This was a game vs a challenger on PS. Unfortunately I used gurdurr more indirectly this game (forced him to switch and capatalized on it with my own double) so I can't showcase it sweeping after pinsir breaks down the team. However, you can see how pinsir has the means to break through a team with 4 "bug checks" (Weezing, Qwill, Gurdurr & Pyroar)
252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 320-377 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 320-377 (87.9 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 265-315 (61.2 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 320-377 (87.9 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 265-315 (61.2 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 208-247 (62.4 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 211-250 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 177-208 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 211-250 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 177-208 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Last edited:
I'm gonna go ahead and nom Volbeat for B, feel it's comparable to Persian as an annoying 'fast' pivot mon.
Volbeat @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Encore
- Roost
- U-turn
- Toxic / Tailwind / Thunder Wave
I've used this thing for a while now as a defensive pivot for a lot of teams it's a legitimately great gluemon in this meta. It's a cover-all fighting check that has reliable recovery, with scarf primeape doing barely over 50% with stone edge and taking rocky helmet damage on u-turns, Hitmonchan being unable to touch it (with the added bonus of being able to 'block' rapid spin if it clicked any other move on switchin that you can encore it into) and Gurdurr getting encore'd into whatever it clicked and toxic'd to death. There's also then stuff like Piloswine, Shiftry and to an extent Kangaskhan that Volbeat works as an answer to, so it's a functional defensive mon.
The aforemnetioned is what lets it fit onto teams in the first place, but beyond that it also provides a tonne of unique utility that really makes it earn its spot. Encore + U-turn is a well known powerful combination and it's even better when the Encore is prankster boosted. Volbeat's presence alone tends to scare a lot of mons from setting up at all, which makes them more predictable to play around, and the existence of U-turn means even the other player switching out of an incoming encore is exploitable. And as always, a slow u-turn is great for getting breakers and sweepers into play.
The last slot is flexible depending on your team and how you need Volbeat to function. Toxic is best if you just want it as a general all-round wallmon, since it means it can answer to things like Gurdurr on a solo basis, instead of encore -> u-turn into something that kills. Tailwind is a really fun option where either on a free turn or when you're about to die, you click it and bring in a slow breaker to get kills. I abused it with Guts Hariyama for reqs but it also works with the likes of Aggron, Abomasnow, Faticate etc. Thunder Wave is thunder wave, idk, it's my least liked option by far but you know, paralysis is cool sometimes. You could even run some meme stuff like swagger or confuse ray in this last slot if you really wanted, the first 3 are all it needs to function fundamentally.
The main issues for dancey bug are rocks, that pressure it into roosting a lot and not taking full advantage of its utility if up, and z-moves breaking encore which makes it a much shakier check to stuff like Lilligant and Mesprit.
Anyway writing is boring, have some replays:
Volbeat @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Encore
- Roost
- U-turn
- Toxic / Tailwind / Thunder Wave
I've used this thing for a while now as a defensive pivot for a lot of teams it's a legitimately great gluemon in this meta. It's a cover-all fighting check that has reliable recovery, with scarf primeape doing barely over 50% with stone edge and taking rocky helmet damage on u-turns, Hitmonchan being unable to touch it (with the added bonus of being able to 'block' rapid spin if it clicked any other move on switchin that you can encore it into) and Gurdurr getting encore'd into whatever it clicked and toxic'd to death. There's also then stuff like Piloswine, Shiftry and to an extent Kangaskhan that Volbeat works as an answer to, so it's a functional defensive mon.
The aforemnetioned is what lets it fit onto teams in the first place, but beyond that it also provides a tonne of unique utility that really makes it earn its spot. Encore + U-turn is a well known powerful combination and it's even better when the Encore is prankster boosted. Volbeat's presence alone tends to scare a lot of mons from setting up at all, which makes them more predictable to play around, and the existence of U-turn means even the other player switching out of an incoming encore is exploitable. And as always, a slow u-turn is great for getting breakers and sweepers into play.
The last slot is flexible depending on your team and how you need Volbeat to function. Toxic is best if you just want it as a general all-round wallmon, since it means it can answer to things like Gurdurr on a solo basis, instead of encore -> u-turn into something that kills. Tailwind is a really fun option where either on a free turn or when you're about to die, you click it and bring in a slow breaker to get kills. I abused it with Guts Hariyama for reqs but it also works with the likes of Aggron, Abomasnow, Faticate etc. Thunder Wave is thunder wave, idk, it's my least liked option by far but you know, paralysis is cool sometimes. You could even run some meme stuff like swagger or confuse ray in this last slot if you really wanted, the first 3 are all it needs to function fundamentally.
The main issues for dancey bug are rocks, that pressure it into roosting a lot and not taking full advantage of its utility if up, and z-moves breaking encore which makes it a much shakier check to stuff like Lilligant and Mesprit.
Anyway writing is boring, have some replays:
All my replays with the rocky helmet set are from the suspect ladder, but I don't think Hari has a huge impact on the bug anyway
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-638422094 - Volbeat brings in Hari, kills Skunk and then tailwinds as it's about to die so Hari can nab a few more kills. Also just walls a lot of mons on the enemy team really.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-638371726 - Mainly just a faticate sweep going on here, but was initiated by bug's slow u-turn out of skunk.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-637164065 - This one with lefties, kind of just walls almost a whole team here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-638994192 - Deals with a sub cm Mesprit, Hitmonchan and Primeape while also wearing down Guzzlord with U-turns and giving Faticate switchins.
I have more but I can't see replays from more than a week ago so that will have to do!!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-638422094 - Volbeat brings in Hari, kills Skunk and then tailwinds as it's about to die so Hari can nab a few more kills. Also just walls a lot of mons on the enemy team really.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-638371726 - Mainly just a faticate sweep going on here, but was initiated by bug's slow u-turn out of skunk.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-637164065 - This one with lefties, kind of just walls almost a whole team here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-638994192 - Deals with a sub cm Mesprit, Hitmonchan and Primeape while also wearing down Guzzlord with U-turns and giving Faticate switchins.
I have more but I can't see replays from more than a week ago so that will have to do!!
Last edited:
Nominating Throh to B+
As anyone who has faced Throh can attest, it's just tough to kill. Not only that, once bulked up and having the opposing ghosts KO'd you can just steamroll through teams. Not to mention it can shrug off special attacks from most anything in the tier that doesn't hit super effectively. Just looking at the mons in B vs B+ and from my time using him he absolutely deserves to be bumped up to B+.
For example: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 229-270 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If hariyama stays banned that means there will be less mons running around that specifically can check specially bulky fighting types. Other than ghosts, only intimidate mons like qwilfish or granbull give it much issue as they get phazed in and out repeatedly. However most opponents don't like having multiple mons dragged over hazards in one turn.
Pair throh with a pursuit trapping skuntank to take on those psychics and ghosts and you've got yourself a nice little core.
Here's a replay against Teddeh where I absolutely throw away the game until Throh comes in and bails me out: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-641614639
As anyone who has faced Throh can attest, it's just tough to kill. Not only that, once bulked up and having the opposing ghosts KO'd you can just steamroll through teams. Not to mention it can shrug off special attacks from most anything in the tier that doesn't hit super effectively. Just looking at the mons in B vs B+ and from my time using him he absolutely deserves to be bumped up to B+.
For example: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 229-270 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If hariyama stays banned that means there will be less mons running around that specifically can check specially bulky fighting types. Other than ghosts, only intimidate mons like qwilfish or granbull give it much issue as they get phazed in and out repeatedly. However most opponents don't like having multiple mons dragged over hazards in one turn.
Pair throh with a pursuit trapping skuntank to take on those psychics and ghosts and you've got yourself a nice little core.
Here's a replay against Teddeh where I absolutely throw away the game until Throh comes in and bails me out: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-641614639
Lumineon is the worst defogger in the tier that actually gets used. Lumineon cant take a hit for its life and cant dish any hits out either, base 69 defense and base 69 hp is horrid along with a base 69 special attack proves this thing does nothing at all. On top of all this the only recovery available to Lumineon is either rest (lol) or leftovers so good luck with that. It doesnt even end there, lumineon also has a very shitty and limited movepool making it very predictable if you were to ever come across one in the meta. The same toxic, defog, scald and uturn/filler is always ran, because lumineon literally has nothing better.
Lumineon goes from rank C to Unranked
Combusken was something used a lot in Oras because there were few fight types in the tier and it had a nice niche in speed boost + swords dance. Now Combusken is out classed by other fights such as Gurdurr and Throh, with many NU mons from last gen dropping this mon cant get it together as it is too frail even with an eviolite and simply cant hit hard enough. Common mons in the tier like Qwil and Palossand shut this down in a heartbeat. It has a great stab move in flare blitz, but fire is a type that can get countered fairly well in the tier and with its duel fight type that does great in the tier suffers from having a bad stab move in sky uppercut. Sky uppercut has a base 85 power and 90% accuracy which is bad and with Combusken like i said not hitting very hard anyway, there's not much reason to use it at all.
Combusken goes from C+ to D
calcs
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 129-152 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 217-256 (58 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 42-51 (12.5 - 15.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 109-129 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Lumineon: 210-247 (61.4 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 238-282 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Lumineon: 145-172 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 159-187 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Most of these wouldnt be a problem if lumineon had recovery other than leftovers.
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 217-256 (58 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 42-51 (12.5 - 15.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 109-129 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Lumineon: 210-247 (61.4 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 238-282 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Lumineon: 145-172 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 159-187 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Most of these wouldnt be a problem if lumineon had recovery other than leftovers.
Just gonna say, the special set is much better than the physical set, that has more relevancy so it shouldn't be D based off of the physical set.
Lumineon is the worst defogger in the tier that actually gets used. Lumineon cant take a hit for its life and cant dish any hits out either, base 69 defense and base 69 hp is horrid along with a base 69 special attack proves this thing does nothing at all. On top of all this the only recovery available to Lumineon is either rest (lol) or leftovers so good luck with that. It doesnt even end there, lumineon also has a very shitty and limited movepool making it very predictable if you were to ever come across one in the meta. The same toxic, defog, scald and uturn/filler is always ran, because lumineon literally has nothing better.
Lumineon goes from rank C to Unranked
Combusken was something used a lot in Oras because there were few fight types in the tier and it had a nice niche in speed boost + swords dance. Now Combusken is out classed by other fights such as Gurdurr and Throh, with many NU mons from last gen dropping this mon cant get it together as it is too frail even with an eviolite and simply cant hit hard enough. Common mons in the tier like Qwil and Palossand shut this down in a heartbeat. It has a great stab move in flare blitz, but fire is a type that can get countered fairly well in the tier and with its duel fight type that does great in the tier suffers from having a bad stab move in sky uppercut. Sky uppercut has a base 85 power and 90% accuracy which is bad and with Combusken like i said not hitting very hard anyway, there's not much reason to use it at all.
Combusken goes from C+ to D
calcs
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 129-152 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 217-256 (58 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 42-51 (12.5 - 15.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 109-129 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Lumineon: 210-247 (61.4 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 238-282 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Lumineon: 145-172 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 159-187 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Most of these wouldnt be a problem if lumineon had recovery other than leftovers.
Even with the special set it would still be a D considering we have better special fire hitters like Magmortar that out class it (damage wise). The special set is also very risky as the main stab/usable moves ( focus blast & fireblast ) have a chance of missing which obviously isnt good. However if you were able to land your moves, the damage still isnt even good, 252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 165-195 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery ( remember thats if you land the focus blast ). If combusken doesnt land its risky moves, it gets blown back by like everything, making it a waste of a mon if it misses that particular battle.
First of all you can't really compare Mag and Busken. Combusken operates as a frail hyper offense killer and lategame sweeper that can either run physical or special which makes it quite unpredictable. Magmortar on the other hand is a special tank that can dent holes in defensive cores with the option to run mixed. And the argument that it's bad cause it has moves which are not 100 percent accurate is also really shaky. Rotom-F, probably the best mon of last gen always ran Blizzard or Oricorio/Swanna with Hurricane. Pokemon is a RNG based game and if you hate missing, Busken isn't the right mon for you.
Last edited: