Let's discuss Substitute -> Stat-up Sweeper Passing

futuresuperstar

I have been trying to test this concept for a long while now. It revolved around Vaporeon, an extremely bulky little fellow with the ability to create substitutes of (up to) 116 HP. Then, I would seek to baton pass those substitutes to a sweeper, like Dragon Dancing Tyranitar or Life Orb Swords Dance Quick Attack Scizor. Vaporeon's Substitutes can last a long time while your sweeper safely stats up behind them.

I ran 27 Speed IVs and a Relaxed Nature so that Blissey would out-run me, effectively allowing only a single Seismic Toss during a pass off. I then ran Wish to further the support, and my lone attacking move was Hidden Power [Electric], to deal with the biggest problem -- taunting Gyarados.

The only problems this ever ran into was phazing, which usually amounted to Swampert and Skarmory.

I think we should put more time to discussing the idea of passing Substitutes to Stat-up Sweepers, and which Pokemon can pass the best. Vaporeon is probably one of the best, being bulky enough to take a hit and make a quality substitute.

So, yeah.
 
I think the two contradicting lines in your sig are funny. :P

But anyway; Vaporeon's subs are beastly. I've never used them, but I've been on the worse end of one. I forget which sweeper I had out, but it took me 4 hits to finally take it out, at which point, the recieving Swords Dance -> Quick Attack Zangoose had +6 Attack, easily enough to sweep my entire team. >.< Kind of a bad match for me, but it made my team better, in the long run. I got a better PHazer. :P
 
As soon as I see anything that can carry BP, I generally have my phazer out. That's why I lead with phazers now, for those Jolteon/ninjask/etc leads.
 
ninjask and yanmega are great prostituters (someone on gfaqs came up with it and it's by far the greatest name ever)

basically, Protect and substitute, which allows for many speed boosts

vaporeons subs are beastly, but drifblims are even better, too bad it can't take hits worth a shit
 
Mood4food77 said:
ninjask and yanmega are great prostituters (someone on gfaqs came up with it and it's by far the greatest name ever)

basically, Protect and substitute, which allows for many speed boosts
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Seeing as how every single ninjask or yanmega set ever uses this technique I'm not sure why you are bringing it up as though it is some kind of hot new item.

But anyway, I used that strategy with Vaporeon on Netbattle to pass subs to a swords dance Heracross. Pretty fun. I really love Vaporeon, but it's gotten harder to use in D/P unfortunately.
 
Protect + Substitute is usually worthless on Ninjask. How often do you really need THAT much Speed? I'd rather use Baton Pass, Substitute, then use the extra slot I gain from not using Protect by using two of X-Scissor, Aerial Ace, Swords Dance, or some other random move Ninjask learns.
 
^ Seconded. Nothing is that slow that you need +6 Speed, and in doing so you cripple your Ninjask's ability to do it again later.
 
What about Drifblim's giant Substitutes being Baton Passed instead of Vaporeon's?
 
Not to mention Drifblim's handy CM BP's and the fact even if you have a phazer it can't be countered being able to make itself faster than everything and even sleep people.

Drifblim is almost always guaranteed to pass off one of its massive 120+HP Subs with a CM or two.
 
I don't like Vaporeon as a Subpasser because the opponent has a chance to bring in something and smack it with Thunderbolt before you can pass. At least Jolteon can sneak out and get in Gengar before that Earthquake hits him.
 
I'm rather fond of running Acid Armor on Vaporeon for passing massive Defense boosts. Wish and Acid Armor passing pwns.
 
If you can get a Ninjask or Yanmega to Substutute, you can then pass the sub and a speed boost to Cradily and youv then essentially got a free turn to sword dance (unless your facing marowak, in whichcase your screw'd) and then potentially sweep. Iv done that before, my opponent was at a complete loss as to what to do, my Cradily is designed to be a special wall and there was a sandstorm going, so that was a no go, he couldnt whirlwind me away, basically i won 6-0.
 
Soy-Monk said:
Um... but Cradily is obviously used as a Special wall. So, designing one to be so is kinda... well, standard.
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Well... whatever. It could be other things, and i probably didnt need to point that out, but the point is its a great reciever of a substitute and appriciates a speed boost as well.
 
Great, except Yanmega cannot Baton Pass. And there's also things more common than Marowak (like Heracross) you're leaving off from things that stand between you and a 6-0 sweep.
 
Isn't this an age old concept that has been proven to work before, starting with Jolteon and Marowak in GSC, Celebi to whoever the hell it wants in ADV and Ninjask now?
 
Mekkah said:
Great, except Yanmega cannot Baton Pass. And there's also things more common than Marowak (like Heracross) you're leaving off from things that stand between you and a 6-0 sweep.
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*checks* Whad'dya know, it doesnt. I was certain that it did, but O.k, ignore that.

And i mentioned Marowak because of bonemerang, which destroys substitutes. Heracross doesnt have any moves like that to my knowledge, (although i could be wrong) and if you got a passed speed boost or two it'd outspeed him... right? (im no good at the maths side of pokemon) But youd probably switch out of a Heracross anyway, and try the pass again later.
 
Technican Ambipom seems more viable as a Subs breaker. Technician boost and STAB with a much higher Speed that Maro's make it more desirable in my opinion.
 
My point was that you don't need to break Cradily's Substitute and then damage it afterward to stop it from 6-0ing your team. Cradily's power is so mediocre that even with a Swords Dance plenty of Pokemon can just exploit its weaknesses. I'm not even sure if Marowak breaks Cradily subs with one Bonemerang hit.
 
Mekkah said:
My point was that you don't need to break Cradily's Substitute and then damage it afterward to stop it from 6-0ing your team. Cradily's power is so mediocre that even with a Swords Dance plenty of Pokemon can just exploit its weaknesses. I'm not even sure if Marowak breaks Cradily subs with one Bonemerang hit.
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It does, trust me. Iv been there, done that, died from it.
 
Ive been testing a Subpass strategy with Drifblim lately.

Drifblim @ Salac Berry
Bold
252 HP, 252 Def, 4 Spd.
-Hypnosis
-Substitute
-Calm Mind
-Baton Pass

It works by nailing something with a Hypnosis, hopefully enough damage for the Substitute to activate Salac berry. Then Calm Mind once or twice, and pass to Octillery.
Yes Octillery, screw you Phazers!

Octillery can then attempt a sweep, with Surf/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Energy Ball @ Life Orb. He isn't fast enough to outspeed the swifter Pokemon, but can deal fatal blows to bulkier things.

And yes, you also need a way to get rid of Special Walls and an alternative target for your BPass (figure them out yourself :)
 
I used to do this all the time if I had thought of something that was only workable with extra support necessary. Now I just think of it as a waste of a team slot.
 
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