np: USUM UU Stage 6.1 - Échame La Culpa (Breloom unbanned, Buzzwole remains BL)

[Moutemoute]

Don't be disrespectful geeezer, I just highlight the fact that "saying that Blissey / Stall is broken" is a little bit simple. Of course Blissey / Stall are annoying, but this is their main purpose.

Also, your striking example of Amane Misa's team and myself is clearly limited. Our team is not broken nor impossible to deal with.
Rotom-Mow can be really annoying cuz it cripple Blissey, Muk-A (or Aggron) with Volt-Switch. Add to that Sr and Blissey can be trapped or weaken enough to be eliminated. Pokemon like Serperior, Choice Band or Perish Trap Azu can beat some Pokemon of the team which breaks its synergy. Pokemon like Gliscor can be annoying, Heracross can hurt the team if Gliscor is weaken enough. Sub + Taunt Gengar is a pain if Muk-A is weakened, SD Sceptile-Mega or Sub Seed can easily pressure the team etc.. You wanted some real arguments, here are some. Thus yes, of my point of view if you complain about Stall I come there to think that you do not get ready for it enough.

Btw, let's focus on our new toys !

Tbh it's really cool that this one has been freed so shout out to UU Council. Without Drought, I feel like Houndoom-Mega will probably be a good Pokemon, neither too hard to deal with, nor not enough. It has a really cool Speed tier, strong STAB and enough coverage to cover Fairy switch-in like Altaria-Mega, Primarina or Azumarill.

I do not much have to say about Breloom. Seem a cool 'mon but has a bad 4MSS (Mach Punch / Bullet Seed and then you are forced to choose between Spore, Swords Dance or coverage like Rock Tomb). Poison Heal set seem cool too w/ SD + Façade.

O-M-G it's back ! Ma boy Buzzwole is there and I'm pretty exciting to play with it again. Now it has Drain Punch so it should be fun. SubPunch will probably be its best set with coverage like EQ / Ice Punch or P-Jab..


Also, this new system of suspect seem to be a good solution, well wait & see !

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

View attachment 99240

CoolStoryBrobat

But seriously fuck the bug

Yeah it honestly is still pretty broken. Walls things physically disgustingly well and even with a tank set it hits hard af. When i get reps i say ban.

 

[justdrew]

I’d like to start off by saying there’s no such thing as a shitty meme quota. CoolStoryBrobat is a living legend and the meme is undeniably the best thing I have ever seen. Now onto more important matters.

Banded Buzzwole and Sash Spore SD Loom are going to be massive offensive threats. Although there are many checks to Breloom and Buzzwole like Sylveon, Azumarill, Latias, Mega Altaria, etcétera etcétera they are still way too powerful for UU. As for Mega Houndoom, without non manual Drought, it is not a huge threaten my opinion. However it’s decent bulk and amazing special attack makes it a fun sweeper, especially if it’s double dance. But with Breloom everywhere it’s forced out every other turn.

With the reign of terror by our friends Buzzwole and Breloom takes place in 8 hours all hell will break loose. Now on that front I’ve been building Cores that will deal with these Pokémon. Although Mega Houndoom doesn’t have amazing speed like Mega Aerodactyl it is still fast enough to outspeed the entire tier at +1 and has tremendous special attack. This is why I chose to use double dance Mega Houndoom. With the defensive support of Trapper Azumarill, Mega Houndoom can safely set up knowing that Breloom is no threat. In addition fast Fighting Pokémon like Scarf Infernape, and water priority users like Azumarill and Crawdaunt are also checked by Trapper Azumarill.

Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Flame Charge
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse

Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Protect
- Rest
- Perish Song

This cores purpose is for Azumarill to trap and kill faster offensive threats, and priority users that can revenge Mega Houndoom. High used threats like Serperior and Infernape, as well as soon to be highly used threats like Buzzwole and Breloom are all checked by Azumarill. This is beneficial because it allows for Mega Houndoom to set up and sweep.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Another interesting tech I've been testing on Houndoom is Pursuit + Nasty Plot. Houndoom naturally forces switches on Pokemon such as Latias and Gengar. Usually, this would mean that it gets a set-up opportunity, but I think it's more important for it to take these Pokemon out. For example:

0 Atk Houndoom-Mega Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 174-206 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It is useful role compression for hyper offense comps that can't afford to run Mega Aerodactyl or Choice users like Scizor.

 

[KKirby]

Houndoom can run sludge bomb to deal with fairies like altaria, azu and sylveon. Also swampert doesnt wanna eat a +2 dark pulse.

In regards to @geezer, blissey is NOT broken. Yes stall has gotten better, but there are a plethora of stallbreakers and wall breakers that threaten both stall and fat builds and don't leave you hopelessly outmatched by offense. Some include: heracross, mamo, stallbreak gliscor and crawdaunt to name a few. There's also more niche stallbreakers like sub roost kyurem and moltres. The main point is that if you struggle with stall THAT much to the point that you think blissey is broke, you need to take a look at your teambuilding and learn to build better

Well you see something called a "check" is something that can eat a hit and 1v1 it. You see the list wasnt called "Checks to Houndoom after a Nasty Plot" .-.

 

[MANNAT]

Breloom @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Focus Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch

Fightinium Z Breloom is a really neat tech that I'm definitely going to be using to bust past many of Breloom's normal answers with sheer destructive force. Obviously this set loses out on the insane utility that Spore provides, but that is traded for the ability to shred through bulkier teams with complete ease. This set dispatches of all of Breloom's normal defensive answers, being able to break past them with +2 Z Focus Punch. I've provided some calcs below to show the insane power of this set, but I'll let the calcs speak for themselves. There's a lot more than just the ones I provided, but these are moreso here to give you an idea of how powerful Breloom is rather than every individual KO it gets on every remotely bulky Pokemon in the tier. I really like this set a lot and hope you guys try it out too in the near future!

Calcs

+2 252+ Atk Breloom All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 381-448 (88.1 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Breloom All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 269-317 (75.5 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 273-322 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (very easy to chip down Alolan Muk)
+2 252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 48 Def Gliscor: 318-378 (90.3 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Breloom All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 297-351 (73.5 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[justdrew]

Breloom @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Focus Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
[/hide]

Why not just Substitute Focus Punch. Focus Punch on its own just for strong Z move sounds sub optimal.

 

[MANNAT]

Why not just Substitute Focus Punch. Focus Punch on its own just for strong Z move sounds sub optimal.

Without Swords Dance you don't have enough power to break through your normal counters.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

RNG has already shown me it does not want me to ladder to get reqs. Just lost a battle because of a Bonemerang miss.

Breloom seems pretty scary to me because of Spore+SD, but it may keep the surging Stakataka TR teams in check. It actually scares me so much I'm considering running Overcoat on my Reuniclus.

Buzzwole, well, it sounds decent. It can maybe act as a check to stuff like Stakataka (yet I don't think it can switch in) and maybe some Scizor variants.

Anyway, neither of these two sound over-the-top broken. But time will tell so.

 

[PapaBisexual]

Also buzzwole doesnt get sd so lets stop that idea in its tracks

 

[lorocus]

it is difficult to control that pair, then they can only be controller by another climate

 

[GraylyHen94]

YEAH BOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

The BEST and most POPPIN Ultra Beast has come down from the heavens once more to grace us with his swollen presence. I will be blasting Ultra Jungle at 400% volume as I Bulk Up Substitute the entire meta game into submission. There will be no stopping me from flexxin on the UU tier with my favorite Pokemon. Thank the UU gods for the recent changes, we love your sagacity

 

[Katy]

Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Fire Blast

I personally like this Mega Doom set alot.

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 200-236 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 396-468 (136 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and since this nasty plot three attack sets hits alot of mons in the UU tier i think mega doom can be a potent threat thzere. 115 base speed isnt slow by any means + the all around movepool it has is very decent to say the least.

hitting mons like chandelure and azelf with dark pulse is great, sludge bomb hits togekiss, mega altaria and also slveon for a nice dmg and fire blast is just simply a great stab for it (if you dont wanna miss, maybe change it to Flamethrower), and it hits serperior, scizor and also celebi. heracross and klefki also dont appreciate getting hit by a blast. have fun trying this set out :]

 

[Escavalier Royale]

no aggron is always used over steelix.

I know you said you no longer wanted to argue, but I just want to say that most stall teams indeed run Steelix for its ability to block Volt Switch. Those had to be some weird stall teams you faced (Gliscor normally doesnt run Flying STAB either, despite the fact that'd be legit good on it)

 

[DiscoDucky]

I know you said you no longer wanted to argue, but I just want to say that most stall teams indeed run Steelix for its ability to block Volt Switch. Those had to be some weird stall teams you faced (Gliscor normally doesnt run Flying STAB either, despite the fact that'd be legit good on it)

I think we should just ignore geeezer at this point.

 

[Venoxio]

my two cents on the suspects i guess lmao

i honestly haven't found buzzwole to be overwhelming at all. its speed is its real drawback, and its revenged by so much in the tier that even if it gets a kill most well-built teams have something they can send in to end buzz's dreams. most special attackers in the tier can kill it with relative ease in general, the bug can't really handle pressure applied by these threats unless its behind a sub, which is prediction-reliant and definitely can be played around. tl;dr the bug isn't too strong and speed/special bulk holds it back from dominating

breloom in my honest opinion is better than buzzwole, but i don't think its really banworthy either. its checks are actually pretty abundant and slapped onto every team in these early ladder stages like mega alt, mega bee, latias, buzzwole, etc. that make it hard for breloom to actually setup and sweep. spore is great but if you run it in addition to sd you get walled by so much more than you need to. natural gift flying is actually a great item on it imo as it completely stops amoon and buzz in their tracks. its speed also is really lackluster for a sweeper in general and it needs either webs support or faster threats to be weakened and killed before it can attempt to do anything.

free both boys

 

[Mysil]

I know you said you no longer wanted to argue, but I just want to say that most stall teams indeed run Steelix for its ability to block Volt Switch. Those had to be some weird stall teams you faced (Gliscor normally doesnt run Flying STAB either, despite the fact that'd be legit good on it)

Tired of this shit, But whatever. After mega agronn got released mega steelix dropped down to RU. So that sort of speaks for itself. I have faced stall both on the ladder and in tournament play and never have I seen mega steelix after aggron dropped. But maybe you have some info about this that I dont know about. The most prominent electric type at the moment is mega manectric. Mega steelix is not taking flamethrowers, so that argument falls flat. I never said gliscor normally runs flying stab. I simply said (or meant) that stall has adjusted to the rising use of heracross by running flying stab on gliscor. Sometimes I feel like anytime someone tries to make a controversial argument here ppl just gang up on said person for no apparent reason. Halv of the people arguing against me here seem to have no idea about What they are talking about. This eaglehawk guy is especially cencerous. No track record of him doing well at all in anything But still he acts more elitist than anyone else. Bad and cocky at the same time. Truly a disgusting human being. Inb4 this post gets deleted and I get a second strike.

 

[RyanKoopa]

Tired of this shit, But whatever. After mega agronn got released mega steelix dropped down to RU. So that sort of speaks for itself. I have faced stall both on the ladder and in tournament play and never have I seen mega steelix after aggron dropped. But maybe you have some info about this that I dont know about. The most prominent electric type at the moment is mega manectric. Mega steelix is not taking flamethrowers, so that argument falls flat. I never said gliscor normally runs flying stab. I simply said (or meant) that stall has adjusted to the rising use of heracross by running flying stab on gliscor. Sometimes I feel like anytime someone tries to make a controversial argument here ppl just gang up on said person for no apparent reason. Halv of the people arguing against me here seem to have no idea about What they are talking about. This eaglehawk guy is especially cencerous. No track record of him doing well at all in anything But still he acts more elitist than anyone else. Bad and cocky at the same time. Truly a disgusting human being. Inb4 this post gets deleted and I get a second strike.

I have no skin in this argument, so I feel safe in saying you're getting way too worked up about this disagreement. If you're that annoyed, just step back and do something else for a few days. Right now all you're doing is making yourself look bad.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Leaning ban on both right now, but more so with Breloom which is a pretty unpopular opinion right now so I'll elaborate:

I don't think Spore is healthy on an offensive Pokemon like Breloom which:

1. Are extremely strong
2. Has access to a boosting move to become extraordinarily strong
3. Has priority to trouble most teams and threaten to sweep

So far I have stuck mainly to laddering with stall on my main and balance on my alts and I think that's really influencing my thoughts, but Spore and its ability to shut down all a huge number of switchins is really the crux of my argument.

Here's an example of Spore being extremely powerful:

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-695851933

Yes it is a super short game in which I ended up winning. However, I got a lucky first turn wake with Altaria. With just SD and Spore, Breloom has a good chance to breakthrough physically defensive Mega Altaria which I found unpleasant. Was it a mistake to Mega Evolve? In retrospect I obviously would not have done it to keep the x4 resistance but you have to understand there is a chance he will Rock Tomb, which is also why I did not go directly intro Crobat. It did not seem like I needed Altaria for anything (depends on his Hydreigon set which seemed Scarf to me) which is why I stayed in, but getting a 2HKO with Bullet Seed on max defense Altaria is pushing Breloom to broken for me.

An another one with an underrated set:

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-695815786

In this game I am not as lucky and do not get a first turn wake - since my opponent played rather well keeping SR up, Altaria was quite weakened on the switchin. I ended up having to use it as Sleeping fodder for the whole game and rely on Crobat which still barely countered Breloom since he had two nice tactical ideas - Focus Punching on Crobat while Roosting which did over 50% and abusing the fact that Brave Bird hurts Crobat so I cannot freely spam it.

I won't give an in depth analysis of the game, but I will say my opponent had good chances (and some missed opportunities) throughout most of the game purely because of Breloom, which showed it can pressure bulky teams even if it does not run Swords Dance. I don't mind having another decent wallbreaker, but no other wallbreaker in UU can put so much pressure when I have two supposed solid counters on my team AND threaten to sweep (although not with this particular set).

Venoxio mentiond that Breloom's checks are abundant in the tier and I agree, but that doesn't really undermine my point that Spore can be very easily abused to cripple most checks - and the ones that do take a Spore - Amoonguss, Celebi, and Mandibuzz of the top of my head - can still be dealt with Breloom and a free turn alone (except Celebi lol) through tactics like Rock Tomb, Z Focus Punch or Natural Gift. It's just a fair difference of opinion I guess, but the fact that all teams have checks to Breloom without trying isn't enough to compensate how overwhelming it can be with just 1 turn.

Buzzwole I don't feel that strongly on either way right now, might post later if this thread stops being a cesspool. All I can say for BUzzwole is if it gets banned and Breloom doesn't, I hope we don't get another Weavile situation where Weavile became much more broken after we banned its counters lol.

To sum it up - I think Breloom is broken but only because Spore and only barely. And regardless of outcome, I think the council made an excellent decision in deciding to do a couple more tests as I think the tier is stable enough to see assess their effect on the metagame.

(PS team importable for the replays: http://pokepast.es/64459741f71274d4)

 

[Dondyxd]

What do you guys think of Z Giga Impact SD Breloom?

Breloom @ Normalium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Giga Impact

I thought this could be kind of cool to lure in would be checks to Breloom like Amoongus and smack them with a +2 Breakneck Blitz.

+2 252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 463-545 (107.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Celebi: 363-428 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Basically luring in things that would normally be able to take a Spore and replying with a +2 Z-move. I've been playing around with it a bit but ladder anxiety is a bitch. Been using Muk-A alongside this set, to trap Latias which is usually one of the hardest 'mons for Breloom to deal with normally. Not having Spore sucks but whatever I guess.

 

[bsu]

while I see the point where spore bring Breloom over the line, I still feel like its so easily hard countered/checked by so many already good mons in the tier ie amoonguss, latias, Crobat, vileplume (lol). if ur team has any one of these mons (especially amoonguss), Breloom pretty much isn't really doing anything.

it has some ways to get around counters sure, but if u do run like SD Z focus punch or giga impact lmao or like natural gift or whatever, it greatly reduces its ability to then be good against like more standard mons, since it kinda does have 4MSS. Breloom is no pushover for sure, but I think its about as equally threatening as like a SD offensive scizor in a sense.

its also so far rather 1 dimensional, as I think toxic orb really has no place in this meta, and a spdef bulk up set I was thinking about is again hard countered by amoonguss

0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 10.3% chance to 3HKO
breaks sub

granted amoonguss can be pressured rather easily but still, same can be said about like any mon checking/countering any other mon

this viewpoint comes from playing with a variety of loom sets, from sash lead to SD Z focus. perhaps the ladder rn is over preparing for Breloom since its being suspected rn but idk it doesn't seem to be like thaaaaaat good.

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom-Mega: 236-278 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

also like this is just sad :(


in terms of buzzwole I haven't messed with it too much but its still pretty annoying since it can be so many different sets and all of them are annoying af to face

 

[Escavalier Royale]

while I see the point where spore bring Breloom over the line, I still feel like its so easily hard countered/checked by so many already good mons in the tier ie amoonguss, latias, Crobat, vileplume (lol). if ur team has any one of these mons (especially amoonguss), Breloom pretty much isn't really doing anything.

it has some ways to get around counters sure, but if u do run like SD Z focus punch or giga impact lmao or like natural gift or whatever, it greatly reduces its ability to then be good against like more standard mons, since it kinda does have 4MSS. Breloom is no pushover for sure, but I think its about as equally threatening as like a SD offensive scizor in a sense.

its also so far rather 1 dimensional, as I think toxic orb really has no place in this meta, and a spdef bulk up set I was thinking about is again hard countered by amoonguss

0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 10.3% chance to 3HKO
breaks sub

granted amoonguss can be pressured rather easily but still, same can be said about like any mon checking/countering any other mon

this viewpoint comes from playing with a variety of loom sets, from sash lead to SD Z focus. perhaps the ladder rn is over preparing for Breloom since its being suspected rn but idk it doesn't seem to be like thaaaaaat good.

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom-Mega: 236-278 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

also like this is just sad :(


in terms of buzzwole I haven't messed with it too much but its still pretty annoying since it can be so many different sets and all of them are annoying af to face

Crobat (and to an extent Latias) can only check Breloom, as it can Spore it on the switch and/or hit it with Rock Tomb. Amoonguss (along with the gods Vileplume and Parasect) loses to Normalium Z and Natural Gift sets, which aren't too niche. I've fought Breloom a couple times already and it's indeed too strong for the tier imo. Then again I can't get reqs as I lost 2 battles to Bonemerang misses already.

 

[Cookees]

I've fought Breloom a couple times already and it's indeed too strong for the tier imo. Then again I can't get reqs as I lost 2 battles to Bonemerang misses already.

Why don't you just run EQ?

 

[bsu]

if u have a Crobat or latias Breloom is literally limited to just sporing a sac and then maybe doubling on the incoming Crobat/latias or something. if Breloom tries to get cheeky with some SDs on the sac switch, worst case it kills ur sac, which u were sacking, and it either does like 30% or something to Crobat with mach punch or switches out and gets u-turned on by Crobat. latias is similar only without u-turn but has strong moves.

like sure u can make plays with Breloom but thats pretty standard of any mon/offensive team style.

I really don't think Breloom is that overpowered considering a good portion of the good mons of the tier check it by nature.

(also breloom's bulk is super bad, coupled with life orb its not lasting long)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 195-229 (74.7 - 87.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
(spikes simulates a life orb sorta)

 

[MANNAT]

What do you guys think of Z Giga Impact SD Breloom?

Breloom @ Normalium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Giga Impact

I thought this could be kind of cool to lure in would be checks to Breloom like Amoongus and smack them with a +2 Breakneck Blitz.

+2 252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 463-545 (107.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Celebi: 363-428 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Basically luring in things that would normally be able to take a Spore and replying with a +2 Z-move. I've been playing around with it a bit but ladder anxiety is a bitch. Been using Muk-A alongside this set, to trap Latias which is usually one of the hardest 'mons for Breloom to deal with normally. Not having Spore sucks but whatever I guess.

Z Focus Punch and Z Stone Edge literally do the same thing except they're viable moves after you use your Z move.