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M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #7: Deoxys-Speed
- Thread starter Chloe
- Start date
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Leftovers recovery????????
Had a couple games I had to lose due to spotty wifi...
Ban.
""" If we made a suspect on Deoxys-S, it's certainly not for Lead set.
We made a suspect on him because he's the best Pidgeotite users.
This thing hasn't counters. Chazmic, you said that Magearna, Ditto and Chansey counter him. That's wrong, I use the three and I still afraid of him. When he comes in the terrain, I don't know if he paralyses me or setup, and if he setup, he can psycho boost when he finish my pokemon for losing his boost for Ditto.
The problem of this pokemon isn't him, it's "no guard", and his ability to create haxx ( I have seen Dynamic Punch on some Deoxys). It's very frustrating to face again a Jirachi which paralyses you with Body Slam with every attack, it's the same with Deoxys.
Is Deoxys too strong for the metagame ? I don't really know. If we ban him, then people will play Xurkitree under SW to have a powerful wallbreaker without counter and the issues will be the same.
Finally, I can't decide. So I wanted to abstain. """
Today someone asked me to change my vote. And I finally agree with him. In a suspect test, we need to be decisive.
When I look Deoxys and his impact, I don't care about Deoxys, my only problem is Zap cannon.
So, my decision is:
Please ban Zap Canoon, Do not ban Deoxys.
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Vote:
Reasoning:
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Ban
I'm sorry, but I really feel it is further necessary to bring this to the attention of the testers. I'm not entirely sure how it's feasible for healthy gameplay to run such high standards in a meta where matchmaking is so limited to the point number 22 cannot vote for a simple test. I have been using a pretty standard team, and normally run a GXE of 85 in OU with my main accounts. The variability of this meta makes for something that is heavily reliant upon matchup to determine victory. I will attempt again, but it's almost an impossible standard when I reach the 1400s within 40 games, then face 1100 players that can't raise my COIL at all when I face them. I'm happy for the players that succeeded, but again, the random chance of players I face is something entirely out of my control and seems to be severely biasing my COIL.
This is not me complaining and I don't want people to take it as such. But I think some of my fellow players may take agreement with the prospect that a Suspect Test for an OM is much more restricted than a typical tier.
This is not me complaining and I don't want people to take it as such. But I think some of my fellow players may take agreement with the prospect that a Suspect Test for an OM is much more restricted than a typical tier.
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BAN
No Ban
(finally, got those reqs)
In an Ubers-based meta where efficient wallbreakers are actually a necessity, and the top 10 players on the ladder will have stall/bulky offense teams, it's more than acceptable to have a breaker that only sweeps teams AFTER a +2 AND priority users of e-speed are gone. Hopefully, in the future the tests will focus among the balance of certain cores that wall the entire unboosted tier, which is unhealthy.
(finally, got those reqs)
In an Ubers-based meta where efficient wallbreakers are actually a necessity, and the top 10 players on the ladder will have stall/bulky offense teams, it's more than acceptable to have a breaker that only sweeps teams AFTER a +2 AND priority users of e-speed are gone. Hopefully, in the future the tests will focus among the balance of certain cores that wall the entire unboosted tier, which is unhealthy.
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I would write why but I can’t be asked.
NO BAN
Ty Flint for the screenshot
NO BAN
Ty Flint for the screenshot
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Game limits are no longer allowed in suspect tests. Please replace this with "Minimum GXE: 80".
(In the future, COIL is also not allowed in suspect tests, but I'll allow it this time.)
btw you can't get GXE 100.
GXE 90 is possible, but will take significantly more than 27 battles.
GXE 85 in 34 battles is feasible, but I think you can't lose a single battle.
I'm aware; however, the suspect test was already almost over by the time we were told not to use the game limit requirement. I will of course not use the game limit in future.
It is sorry, I meant that by the time we were told not to include a game limit, the majority of the suspect period had elapsed. There's still a day left of the suspect from right now.
Confirming as lskildum
BAN
As for my reasoning, I do find Deo-S to actually be a major part in this problem. Pidgeotite is definitely something to be worried about, but there are other Zap Cannon users who won't have such an influence. Xurkitree is still slow with rather poor bulk (worse than Deo-S) and with little coverage outside of it. Jolteon lacks coverage as well despite the high SpA (higher than Deo-S). What Deo-S has that causes it to be such a problem is it coverage and its ridiculous speed. At base 200 speed, a neutral nature gives it a 499 stat, meaning that in order to outspeed it, there are three options. Option one: you need to scarf Garchomp (or something faster). In this metagame, that rarely happens, as the mons with the speed to pull that off can usually still mega evolve, which is generally the superior option. Blacephalon, for example, could outspeed with a scarf, but it is more viably used as a Diancite user. The second way to outspeed or put a Diancite onto a mon with 140 base speed already, which limits us to Accelgor, Electrode, and Ninjask for this solution. Once again, not viable options. The third option is priority. The problem here is that priority comes from -Ate mons, which all are resisted by Steel. Tapu Lele can single handedly shut down Priority as well and proceed to sweep as well, being another wonderful Diancite user. The third option is definitely the most usable, but in general, this means that Deo S can get off a Zap Cannon, forcing a paralysis unless the opponent is Electric or Ground. Should this be the case, Deo-S has Ice Beam coming off a solid 160 SpA stat, which will hurt a lot (And Focus Blast hits Magnezone too for those who immediately jump on it to resist BoltBeam coverage). Deo-S is overcentralizing in a way that is unhealthy for the metagame and that should not be allowed to happen.
Now, in all honestly, my ideal solution would be to prevent Deo-S from holding Pidgeotite. Together they can wreck a lot, but Deo-S with other megastones like Gyaradosite are not broken. I understand this. However, this situation is similar to Dragonite with Pinsirite, even though other megastones were viable on it too (like Pidgeotite ironically enough). Pinsirite broke Dragonite like how Pidgeotite breaks Deo-S, so we really should prevent Deo-S from holding megastones altogether (unless complex bans are coming in the future that is). As a result, I would really petition those who voted No Ban or Abstain to change your vote. This is not healthy for the meta, and we need to do something to fix it.
BAN
As for my reasoning, I do find Deo-S to actually be a major part in this problem. Pidgeotite is definitely something to be worried about, but there are other Zap Cannon users who won't have such an influence. Xurkitree is still slow with rather poor bulk (worse than Deo-S) and with little coverage outside of it. Jolteon lacks coverage as well despite the high SpA (higher than Deo-S). What Deo-S has that causes it to be such a problem is it coverage and its ridiculous speed. At base 200 speed, a neutral nature gives it a 499 stat, meaning that in order to outspeed it, there are three options. Option one: you need to scarf Garchomp (or something faster). In this metagame, that rarely happens, as the mons with the speed to pull that off can usually still mega evolve, which is generally the superior option. Blacephalon, for example, could outspeed with a scarf, but it is more viably used as a Diancite user. The second way to outspeed or put a Diancite onto a mon with 140 base speed already, which limits us to Accelgor, Electrode, and Ninjask for this solution. Once again, not viable options. The third option is priority. The problem here is that priority comes from -Ate mons, which all are resisted by Steel. Tapu Lele can single handedly shut down Priority as well and proceed to sweep as well, being another wonderful Diancite user. The third option is definitely the most usable, but in general, this means that Deo S can get off a Zap Cannon, forcing a paralysis unless the opponent is Electric or Ground. Should this be the case, Deo-S has Ice Beam coming off a solid 160 SpA stat, which will hurt a lot (And Focus Blast hits Magnezone too for those who immediately jump on it to resist BoltBeam coverage). Deo-S is overcentralizing in a way that is unhealthy for the metagame and that should not be allowed to happen.
Now, in all honestly, my ideal solution would be to prevent Deo-S from holding Pidgeotite. Together they can wreck a lot, but Deo-S with other megastones like Gyaradosite are not broken. I understand this. However, this situation is similar to Dragonite with Pinsirite, even though other megastones were viable on it too (like Pidgeotite ironically enough). Pinsirite broke Dragonite like how Pidgeotite breaks Deo-S, so we really should prevent Deo-S from holding megastones altogether (unless complex bans are coming in the future that is). As a result, I would really petition those who voted No Ban or Abstain to change your vote. This is not healthy for the meta, and we need to do something to fix it.
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Because I'm generous and also because the game limit concept is inherently flawed, I've decided to allow anyone over the threshold of 2750 COIL to vote. I'm sorry to anyone who's achieved reqs via that but gone over the 50 game limit and continued laddering on a new alt.
Also 24 hours left of the suspect test from this time, so ensure you post reqs before then.
Also 24 hours left of the suspect test from this time, so ensure you post reqs before then.
So I also got requirements. https://gyazo.com/d058ce5911dafb018c3d1074007a0441
....It's been a while, huh? Everything kind of... just caught up to me. And I still have stuff to deal with. But enough about me. The important part here is this space alien.
After much consideration, I wish to vote to ban Deoxys-Speed.
The reason isn't actually in the Pidgeotite set, though having another set that can efficiently break a ton of things that aren't -atespeeders or very bulky Steel or Dark types really helps. (And Zap Cannon gets another spreadsheet as to its goodness, we'll return to that at another point...) That's a good set, but it's not what I wish to talk about.
It's about Gyaradosite. The type of lead that Deoxys-Speed is makes the whole beginning of matches with it involved pretty unhealthy. In at least 90% of matches, if not more, Deoxys is getting at least one hazard off. If mispredictions are involved, that number becomes 2. This coming from the fastest thing in the game, and having access to a powerful STAB move in Psycho Boost to rebuke weaknesses such as Keldeo and Terrakion if they happen to get cheeky also doesn't help its case.
..But as terrifying as the threat of a base 160 speed lead with Mold Breaker, Taunt, and hazards is... this undersells what Deoxys really is. ...
A mind-gaming monster.
The most damage done by Deoxys-Speed is not actually done in the match itself, but before the first turn even happens. Confused? You might be. But I'll help make it clear to you. Gyaradosite and Pidgeotite Deoxys are very different kinds of threats (and this is without getting into the niche sets such as the physical or mixed stones) that require different answers to properly address. Many people are so used to Deoxys-Speed being a lead that they will instinctively put a counter to the Gyaradosite set if they see it in the preview. If they lead with something else (or the Pidgeotite set)... that's a serious leg down on an offensive team already. It's not inherently broken, persay (which is part of why it stayed in both gen 6 and 7 for so long), but is incredibly draining on both the health of Mix and Mega, and the versatility of leads.
It isn't just Toxapex and a select handful that can hold Gyaradosite or Ampharosite effectively. There are tons of effective leads with their own twist on the standard fare. Heck, Sivally has its own niche in Parting Shot.
Hopefully this, along with the other things that you have seen, will allow you to go out and say you are properly informed a little more about Mix and Mega's inner workings... they're pretty special. And hopefully you all have an opinion on that, as well...
....It's been a while, huh? Everything kind of... just caught up to me. And I still have stuff to deal with. But enough about me. The important part here is this space alien.
After much consideration, I wish to vote to ban Deoxys-Speed.
The reason isn't actually in the Pidgeotite set, though having another set that can efficiently break a ton of things that aren't -atespeeders or very bulky Steel or Dark types really helps. (And Zap Cannon gets another spreadsheet as to its goodness, we'll return to that at another point...) That's a good set, but it's not what I wish to talk about.
It's about Gyaradosite. The type of lead that Deoxys-Speed is makes the whole beginning of matches with it involved pretty unhealthy. In at least 90% of matches, if not more, Deoxys is getting at least one hazard off. If mispredictions are involved, that number becomes 2. This coming from the fastest thing in the game, and having access to a powerful STAB move in Psycho Boost to rebuke weaknesses such as Keldeo and Terrakion if they happen to get cheeky also doesn't help its case.
..But as terrifying as the threat of a base 160 speed lead with Mold Breaker, Taunt, and hazards is... this undersells what Deoxys really is. ...
A mind-gaming monster.
The most damage done by Deoxys-Speed is not actually done in the match itself, but before the first turn even happens. Confused? You might be. But I'll help make it clear to you. Gyaradosite and Pidgeotite Deoxys are very different kinds of threats (and this is without getting into the niche sets such as the physical or mixed stones) that require different answers to properly address. Many people are so used to Deoxys-Speed being a lead that they will instinctively put a counter to the Gyaradosite set if they see it in the preview. If they lead with something else (or the Pidgeotite set)... that's a serious leg down on an offensive team already. It's not inherently broken, persay (which is part of why it stayed in both gen 6 and 7 for so long), but is incredibly draining on both the health of Mix and Mega, and the versatility of leads.
It isn't just Toxapex and a select handful that can hold Gyaradosite or Ampharosite effectively. There are tons of effective leads with their own twist on the standard fare. Heck, Sivally has its own niche in Parting Shot.
Hopefully this, along with the other things that you have seen, will allow you to go out and say you are properly informed a little more about Mix and Mega's inner workings... they're pretty special. And hopefully you all have an opinion on that, as well...
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