Clauses

I think Sleep, Freeze, OHKO, and Evasion clauses should always be on. Item and Species clause are dumb IMO. I used to advocate item clause but after playing more I realize that if you can't play against someone using more than one of an item you're not very good anyways. I've gotten better. Species clause makes no sense as stated before because you double the effectiveness or double the uselessness of whatever you're using multiples of. It's likely that if they couldn't handle the first one they can't handle any other copies on the team so I see no problem with running multiples of something. I myself want to be able to run Porygon Z and Porygon2 on the same team because they perform differently.

Sleep is bullshit though and I think that clause should definetly be enforced 100% of the time.
 
Im pretty sure double porygons dont violate species clause because it would be two of the exact same pokemon so technically you could have chansey and blissey on your team and be safe from species clause but thats kind of laughable.

p2 and pz are different pokemon in of themselves so they would be safe from it.
 
FarmerWithShotgun said:
Im pretty sure double porygons dont violate species clause because it would be two of the exact same pokemon so technically you could have chansey and blissey on your team and be safe from species clause but thats kind of laughable.

p2 and pz are different pokemon in of themselves so they would be safe from it.
Click to expand...

lol i just played against someone on shoddy using both chansey and blissey
 
FarmerWithShotgun said:
Im pretty sure double porygons dont violate species clause because it would be two of the exact same pokemon so technically you could have chansey and blissey on your team and be safe from species clause but thats kind of laughable.

p2 and pz are different pokemon in of themselves so they would be safe from it.
Click to expand...

That doesn't violate Species clause? Cool. I'm going to start using both now. Thanks.
 
For all those people who think SPecies Clause is dumb, how would you like to face a team having an SD Ape, a Plotting Ape, and a CB Ape, and an SD Luke, a Specs Luke and a Blissey or something? You wouldn't be able to tell which set the Infernape you were currently facing had, and your opponent could completely mess you up. Nothing would be really safe switching in.
 
gmax said:
For all those people who think SPecies Clause is dumb, how would you like to face a team having an SD Ape, a Plotting Ape, and a CB Ape, and an SD Luke, a Specs Luke and a Blissey or something? You wouldn't be able to tell which set the Infernape you were currently facing had, and your opponent could completely mess you up. Nothing would be really safe switching in.
Click to expand...

And what's wrong with that? A Scarf Garchomp would rip that team apart and mainly because there are 5 EQ weaknesses. That's what you sacrifice when you use multiples of something. You get more of the same weakness.
 
ThaPhantom07 said:
I think Sleep, Freeze, OHKO, and Evasion clauses should always be on. Item and Species clause are dumb IMO.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Using multiple (insert Pokemon) usually doesn't give you an advantage; I did use a mono Bronzong team once, which performed decently, but it's not at all game-breaking. Item Clause is bullshit, who cares if you use 6 Leftovers? And the rest is just plain necessary, indeed.
 
Imagine Bibarel with Double Team, oh the horror...

Even Regigigas could become unbearable if Double Team was allowed.
 
ThaPhantom07 said:
And what's wrong with that? A Scarf Garchomp would rip that team apart and mainly because there are 5 EQ weaknesses. That's what you sacrifice when you use multiples of something. You get more of the same weakness.
Click to expand...

Doesn't really matter. That was just an example. You could always run 2-3 of one Poke with different sets and cover the weaknesses with your other slots.
 
Here's my stand.

Evasion clause can be off in my opinion. There are so many moves that counter evasion, and most of them aren't affected by accuracy. Nobody removed Stealth Rock and Spikes from the game even though there's only ONE move that removes them, and is only learnt by a handful of Pokemon.

I'm iffy on the OHKO clause. With the OHKO clause off, I suspect that stall teams would die out quickly. They are a pure gamble. Their user can miss 100% of the time and lose as a consequence, or he can hit all the time. I'm 50-50 on OHKO clause.

Sleep clause... now this is interesting. For sure, if it's off, then Sleep Talk's use would skyrocket, as well as Natural Cure Pokemon, and maybe even a few Insomnia Pokemon. Chesto or Lum Berry might see an increase in usage too. I think that sleep clause should stay on, though, as the game would then degenerate into Sleep Talk vs Sleep Talk.

Freeze clause... I don't know. The odds of getting a single freeze in the game are at most 20% from a Serene Grace Pokemon, and hence the odds of getting two freezes is only 4%. Not to mention that you could thaw out immediately on that turn. Maybe we're a bit too fussy... I wouldn't mind turning Freeze clause off.

I would leave Species clause on, if anything to make the team designers have a bit more to think about. Although it's a bit unfair on Bibarel since Simple Bibarel and Unaware Bibarel are two completely different Pokemon in my books, but that's another story...

Item clause is interesting. I wouldn't mind it being either on or off personally.

I don't know if I forgot about some other clause. Maybe I'll post later if it turns out I did.
 
Imagine Bibarel with Double Team, oh the horror...
Click to expand...
DT in Baton Pass chains would be many magnitudes more horrifying.

Sleep clause is 100% necessary, else people will just whore sleep or the fistful of pokemon that are immune to sleep/use STalk efficiently.
Freeze clause is not very necessary since freeze almost always means death for the one pokemon and it's a fairly rare occurance to boot.
Species clause is not very necessary for the reasons given above: you'll either double your advantage or double your disadvantage. Also, not very many pokemon are worth doubling up on, mostly just mixers and they are counterable in the current system.

OHKO clause is marginally necessary to further reduce the odds of the opponent getting a "free win" from (3/10)^6 to less (ideally zero). There are quite a few good pokemon that can abuse OHKO as well, Resttalk Lapras with Sheer Cold and Horn Drill comes to mind. Articuno would get some work as a phazer with Mind Reader for sure and I'm sure Rapidash wouldn't mind some Choice Scarf Horn Drill either. Or how about Stallrein with Sheer Cold? Scary.
The argument can be made that "using an inaccurate OHKO move over another move in that slot is justification for allowing it", but most people will agree that a 30% chance at OHKOing all pokemon is always better than the common case: a 100% chance at never KOing your counter or 3+HKOing something neutral.

DT clause is marginally necessary since people try to avoid clawing their eyes out. Going back to the previous example and assuming that you have a pokemon with 6 DTs (or evasion stage equivalents) and the ability to 3HKO the entire opposing team, trying to reduce the odds of a "free win" from (1/3)^18 to less is ideal. The more common situation would just be an annoying wall that becomes magnitudes more annoying when you have to hit it twice in a row to stop it's ability to heal off all damage.

Item clause is not needed at all, it's a directionless restriction carried over from the main game. There's nothing inherently wrong with 6 leftovers, only that Pokemon says it's bad.
 
If you have a Pokemon with 6 DTs, then it means your opponent is dumb enough not to counter your six DT turns for 6 turns in a row. Just like Rapid Spin would counter any Spikes/Stealth Rock that the opponent puts in the field, and nobody argues with the fact that people 'uselessly' pack a Rapid Spinner in their team, a simple Odor Sleuth (which is 100% accurate no matter how many DTs the opponent uses due to a change in mechanics in DP which almost nobody is aware of) would counter that. Even a simple Yawn (which is also 100% accurate in DP) would.

Also, just as a player who manages to Swords Dance 2 times and passing an Agility to his Garchomp deserves to win, wouldn't a player who manages to Double Team SIX times not be deserving of a win as well, in spite of the fact that the opponent has a higher probability to win against a 6 DT Pokemon than against a 2 SD, 1 Agility Garchomp?
 
Ambitions said:
ive always thought that clauses take away from the game.

the game was designed a certain way, if you dont like it that way dont play. things like sleep powder take some skill to execute well just like sweeping does. item clause, who cares about that. if a person wants to use the same item, let them, its nooobish anyway. most of us are better than that. OHKO clause, i mean, if you cant kill the opponent by the time it hits you....

except for evasion clause, i hate that shat.
double team is worse than a choice band groudon earthquaking a charmander
Click to expand...
LOL "things like sleep powder take some skill to execute just like sweeping does".

By skill do you mean pressing a button and hoping that it doesn't miss?

And as far as evasion clause goes, moves like Double Team make the game more reliant on luck than skill...

Sleep clause is necessary for reasons already stated... Imagine a Breloom with a baton-passed Agility Sporing your whole team.

Do a bit more battling and you'll see what I mean.
 
im cool with all the rules, except with frezee clause...the chance of get an oponent frozen is minimal...but this game is also based on luck and in a battle you never know when an ice beam or blizzard will put an oponent into the fridge and its no fair that you should lost a game for something you cannot control...

about item clause...well im cool with it, but yeha prolly will be better with out it....i spend some time trying to find what item put on my pokes instead of lefties or scarf :P.....

just my opinion
 
While luck is a factor in Pokemon games, the general rule if you are playing any game competitively is that reducing luck as much as possible. It's a factor, but Pokemon is NOT a "game of luck" like Poker.

With that in mind, OHKO and Evasion clauses make a lot of sense. Those moves increase the randomness of the outcome of the match and reduce the ability of players to use preparation and strategy to win. You might as well name some dice after your favorite pokemon and throw them to determine the winner.

Another general rule is to prevent a game from becoming over-centralized. This is why there are tiers for Ubers, OU, UU, etc. That in mind, the incredibly strong effects of certain pokemon and certain attacks
create other necessary clauses and rule sets. Arceus, or SIX of them, would be ridiculous to play against with standard pokemon. In an environment where that was allowed, everyone would have to use that, or a variation of that, if they hoped to win a match. That would, very quickly, become incredibly boring and would ignore 99% of the game in the game in the process. This is why Sleep Clause, Species Clause and the separation of competition by tiers is necessary.

Freeze clause makes little sense in the current metagame. Players are able to thaw on the same turn that they freeze and the chances of hitting more than one at a time are pretty low, even with boosting items. Likewise, item clause is completely unnecessary. A team of 6 leftover-carrying pokemon wouldn't overcentralize the game. Neither would a team of six choice-scarfed pokemon. While there are a small group of items that are used over and over again, none of them really overcentralize the game. Instead, allowing a team to have a few lefties or banded users opens up some interesting strategy options.
 
Also, just as a player who manages to Swords Dance 2 times and passing an Agility to his Garchomp deserves to win, wouldn't a player who manages to Double Team SIX times not be deserving of a win as well, in spite of the fact that the opponent has a higher probability to win against a 6 DT Pokemon than against a 2 SD, 1 Agility Garchomp?
Click to expand...
Oh, I'm very aware. I was doing it on a worst-case scenario. Like I said, the much more common case would be DT/Softboiled Blissey or DT/Moonlight Cresselia or DT/Recover Suicune. Go @Brightpowder too and just make the opponent miserable. =P
 
^^
éyaang switched in Dragonite (lvl 100 Dragonite ?).
Flygon used Substitute.
Flygon lost 25% of its health.
Flygon made a substitute!
Flygon makes ground moves miss with Levitate!
Dragonite used Earthquake.
Dragonite's attack missed!
---
éyaang switched in Dusknoir (lvl 100 Dusknoir ?).
Dusknoir is exerting its pressure!
Flygon used Screech.
Dusknoir's defence was harshly lowered.
---
éyaang switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Flygon used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Kabutops lost 70% of its health.
éyaang's Kabutops fainted!
---
éyaang switched in Dusknoir (lvl 100 Dusknoir ?).
Dusknoir is exerting its pressure!
Flygon used Dragon Claw.
Flygon's attack missed!
---
Flygon used Earthquake.
Flygon's attack missed!
Dusknoir used Mean Look.
But it failed!
---
Flygon used Earthquake.
Dusknoir lost 26% of its health.
Dusknoir used Taunt.
Flygon fell for the taunt!
---
Flygon used Dragon Claw.
A critical hit!
Dusknoir lost 48% of its health.
Dusknoir used Curse.
Dusknoir lost 50% of its health.
éyaang's Dusknoir fainted.
Dusknoir cut its health and laid a curse on Flygon!
Flygon is afflicted by the curse!
Flygon lost 25% of its health.
---
éyaang switched in Dragonite (lvl 100 Dragonite ?).
Flygon used Dragon Claw.
It's super effective!
Dragonite lost 69% of its health.
Dragonite used Fire Punch.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Flygon!
Flygon's taunt wore off!
Flygon is afflicted by the curse!
Flygon lost 25% of its health.
Enemy's Flygon fainted.
---
Enemy switched in Blastoise (lvl 100 Blastoise ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blastoise.
Sheldon lost 12% of its health.
Dragonite used Earthquake.
Blastoise lost 35% of its health.
AABM's Blastoise fainted.
Gnaaye wins!
 
The only scary thing I can think of would be CScarf Garchomp and SD Garchomp. Since you don't know which one the opponent sent out (unless you're keeping rigorous track of HP or mark them with status), you don't know if he can outspeed your counter or if he'll set up in your face. There are a few pokemon that counter both but not nearly as many as counter one or the other.

Maybe not Garchomp since he has a huge weak and would be marginally easy to OHKO, but any pokemon that can use either CB/CS effectively would be hell to deal with.
 
Pneuma said:
The only scary thing I can think of would be CScarf Garchomp and SD Garchomp. Since you don't know which one the opponent sent out (unless you're keeping rigorous track of HP or mark them with status), you don't know if he can outspeed your counter or if he'll set up in your face. There are a few pokemon that counter both but not nearly as many as counter one or the other.

Maybe not Garchomp since he has a huge weak and would be marginally easy to OHKO, but any pokemon that can use either CB/CS effectively would be hell to deal with.
Click to expand...

To that effect if you had almost anything with Choice Scarf Ice Beam/CB Mamoswine, Bulky water, etc... then Garchomp is wrecked. Thats the price you pay for multiples. You gamble. If they have something to counter one then most likely they can counter them all and thats more useless weight they had running on their team putting them at a disadvantage. On the flipside if you're not prepared for it then them running multiples was effective. It's like double or nothing.
 
Uber clause is fine obviously. No one wants to fight them.
Evasion Clause is needed. Look at that Garchomp in the sand holding brightpowder! Look! It just used Double team as I switched to my counter! Hey!? I can't hit it!
Sleep Clause ... lol Butterfree can rape if it manages to get a substitute off. Look at Breloom...
Freeze Clause Dumb. 10% chance of freezing a poke and a fairly high chance of it thawing out.
OHKO Clause I 4-0ed my friend with a Rest / Sleep Talk / Fissure / Sheer Cold Walrein. I think that says a lot when his "counters" were ripped apart.
Item Clause I HATE this. Hey, guess what my walls need? Leftovers!
 
Pneuma said:
The only scary thing I can think of would be CScarf Garchomp and SD Garchomp. Since you don't know which one the opponent sent out (unless you're keeping rigorous track of HP or mark them with status), you don't know if he can outspeed your counter or if he'll set up in your face. There are a few pokemon that counter both but not nearly as many as counter one or the other.
Click to expand...


How about allowing people to use multiple Pokemon of the same species, as long as they have obviously different names?
 
X-Act said:
If you have a Pokemon with 6 DTs, then it means your opponent is dumb enough not to counter your six DT turns for 6 turns in a row. Just like Rapid Spin would counter any Spikes/Stealth Rock that the opponent puts in the field, and nobody argues with the fact that people 'uselessly' pack a Rapid Spinner in their team, a simple Odor Sleuth (which is 100% accurate no matter how many DTs the opponent uses due to a change in mechanics in DP which almost nobody is aware of) would counter that. Even a simple Yawn (which is also 100% accurate in DP) would.
Click to expand...

Don't forget Foresight and Miracle Eye.


((This also sums up my arguments about the Evasion Clause as well. I find it stupid to have a clause about a move that has multiple counters, but that allows three moves [Spikes, SR, TS] that only have one.))
 
Well, Sleep Clause adds a lot of strategy plus I don't want to be 6-0ed by a Breloom setting up Spores, so that clause is important.

Evasion Clause is good for me because my team is not set up to abuse a lack of it (by the way, if you ever battle me, I consider Brightpowder to count in Evasion Clause.). I expect other battlers to not be wasting time on making themselves lucky, because if they were I'd be preparing for it with Aerial Ace, Lock-On/Odor Sleuth, or my own DTs.

OHKO Clause prevents a Lock-on/Sheer Cold Sash Smeargle or incredibly sturdy tanks for crushing things at random. Item Clause is pure bullshit though.

In other words, the clauses are there to add balance and eliminate unfair strategies.
 
I dont like sleep. Even having one asleep renders it almost completly useless for the rest of the game, unless your lucky enough for it to awaken at some point. Evasion, as a clause, is understandable, but with Roar, Whirlwind, Yawn and Haze around, its not so much of a threat, and so becomes debatable, where as sleep is in very little way debatable as to wether it should be allowed or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top