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2020 Trump Discussion

>works in london at the center of the global financial industry
>defends the most minimal gov regardless of context that will still enforce wage slavery contracts and refuses any discussions about the dispossession of wealth from the 3rd world by the 1st world

"ur an ideologue not worth my time discussing stuff with"
 
I can't vote because I'm not American but if there is one thing I can pick up from the 2016 presidential election is that everyone needs to stop blindly believe what they read on the press. No one on the right mind thought trump would win (probably not even Trump himself). All the polls, the media predictions and the endorsements especially via entertainment celebrities sincerely believed Hillary will trample Trump by a landslide and look oh how incredibly wrong they are.

So for upcoming 2020 maybe voters should think twice if they are going to rely on the mainstream press to make future forecasts and predictions regarding presidential elections.


It's always good to be underestimated - Donald trump
 
In all honesty, I thought that Trump would win, but only because his only serious opponent in that election had the surname "Clinton".
After all, if you're already ruining your country with either choice, you may as well go all the way.


Jokes aside, I doubt that Trump is going to make it again 2020, mainly since most of his rather... interesting propagandistic decisions during the election (e.g. directing alot of his efforts to taking over traditionally democrat States) won't do nearly as well now that they aren't surprising everyone anymore.
 
In all honesty, I thought that Trump would win, but only because his only serious opponent in that election had the surname "Clinton".
After all, if you're already ruining your country with either choice, you may as well go all the way.


Jokes aside, I doubt that Trump is going to make it again 2020, mainly since most of his rather... interesting propagandistic decisions during the election (e.g. directing alot of his efforts to taking over traditionally democrat States) won't do nearly as well now that they aren't surprising everyone anymore.

Idk. There is fairly robust evidence that moderate candidates perform significantly better against incumbent opponents, and Beto is the only relatively moderate candidate with a chance of winning the nomination (imo). Kamala is far less popular among leftists than Bernie, to put it lightly, but her support for mfa, eliminating private insurance, reparations, super tight gun control, etc. put her far left of a typical dem in the public eye, regardless of what the internet will have you believe. And Bernie is obviously considered radical by the gp.

Plus, the economy is doing fine (which is typically a huge boon for incumbents), and donald still has a 90% approval among republicans, and any right-leaning independents vehemently opposed to "socialist dems" will certainly vote for him against kamala, bernie, or warren (though im sure fox will find some way to spin beto as a communist by the end as well). I'm tempering my expectations for 2020.

And it's not like we're getting electoral college reform anywhere anytime soon. Urban blue states can only do so much.
 
Trump's economic numbers are just leftovers from Obama era policies, after all, everything we got from Trump was done by Obama before him, as I am reminded from every time anyone tries to blame anything on Trump.
I'm not calling you wrong or challenging you, but I'd like to see some statistics/ graphs/ diagrams that demonstrate this.
Thank you.
 
I'm not calling you wrong or challenging you, but I'd like to see some statistics/ graphs/ diagrams that demonstrate this.
Thank you.
literally read any other by post by me in the thread, this is getting sad and tired
 
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Hey is it just me but earlier on this year didn't CNN reporter Jim Acosta visit the United States and Mexico border? Literally the same day the internet was mocking him by accidentally proving walls work, which is against CNN's own narrative. LOL

https://www.kusi.com/jim-acosta-owns-himself-accidentally-proves-walls-work/Well that was his own word - 'Tranquil'. Well if you have a CNN reporter to tell you walls work that says something.

https://7mu.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Jim-Acosta.png^That was his own tweet.
Not gonna lie I was laughing sooooooo hard I could hardly breathe for almost an entire hour. XD


What I also find it extremely funny is how other journalists and news anchors' reaction to when the Mueller report - the most infamous one being Rachel Maddow, literally crying in front of the Camera because no evidence was there to prove that Russia somehow 'colluded' with the United States as if she WANTS the United States to collude with Russia. So the democrats have basically meaninglessly wasted 2 years worth of FBI time, effort and federal funding to investigate and unfairly framing a president who won the election fair and square and ultimately for what reason? To stall time? To hate him simply for hating him? Also no apology? Please tell America why they should trust the mainstream news again?

So my point is this - Regardless if you are pro Trump or not, left or right, liberal or conservative I couldn't care less but if there is one thing to pick up from the 2016 election is once again please stop believing what you read on the press and don't underestimate what you don't know enough off. If a businessman who has literally zero political experience can become the most powerful man on the planet, literally anyone can.
 
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Ultimately its two separate points maken and because trumps walls has been the center of attention for this thread I might as well bring up Jim Acostas tweet back in January.

Well there's another thread talking about potential competition for Trump in 2020 with Bernie Saunders being the most likely candidate to rival Donald and people are comparing via stats on Trump's work for the last two years which nothing is wrong with that on their own regard but if I were them I wouldn't trust any mainstream leftist news outlet that even tries to make a conclusion at the slightest. This includes CNN, NBC, MSNBC, ABC etc for television and Buzzfeed, Vox, Washington Post, New York Times, New Yorker, The Guardian, NPR, Huffington Post etc because all made the claim that they are absolutely certain Hillary would be the 45th president of the United States but the outcome of the election only shows they really bit their own tails really hard.

At least the Brazilian mainstream media learnt the lesson of their north American neighbours and actually many accurately predicted Bolsonaro will be the next governor of Brazil. Props to them.

Also 70% of Americans will agree with me traditional mainstream news outlets are untrustworthy so I'm not alone.

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/...utlets-report-news-they-know-to-be-fake-false

And even up to 92% of republicans.
https://www.cjr.org/the_media_today/trust-in-media-down.php
Now ofcourse the links i used above can certainly be inaccurate which i can't exactly confirm because they were only googled but hey at this point I think you can trust your own gut and tell yourself if American journalism is still as reliable as it was 50 years ago or has it completely fell from its former glory.
 
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what if I told you that, except for extreme cases like responding to a crash, the current state of the economy has very little to do with whoever is president at all and this argument is stupid :o
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I wouldn’t call mispredicteding the presidential results exactly equal to straight up misinformation. Hillary did technically win the popular vote so most polls along that line can’t really be faulted. Trump was a pretty big upset in most regards.

Also that entire “LOL” moment with Jim Acosta is all correlation=causation. It’s making the assumption that it’s quiet due to the wall and wasn’t like that in the first place. Kind of weird that you can laugh at a logical fallacy for a whole hour but you do you
 
I wouldn’t call mispredicteding the presidential results exactly equal to straight up misinformation. Hillary did technically win the popular vote so most polls along that line can’t really be faulted. Trump was a pretty big upset in most regards.

Also that entire “LOL” moment with Jim Acosta is all correlation=causation. It’s making the assumption that it’s quiet due to the wall and wasn’t like that in the first place. Kind of weird that you can laugh at a logical fallacy for a whole hour but you do you
Irony overdose, one, if we're talking about laughing at logical fallacy.

Two, I believe in the term "work smart not hard," and I think a wall is the simplest way to limit further illegal immigration (and I stress illegal more than anything). Jim Acosta showcased that pretty well, and you can look at the stats for areas with updated border fencing like Phoenix, AZ, where illegal immigration rates have plummeted. Pretty strong correlation if you ask me. Don't beat the dead horse I think it's blatant that tall barriers make illegal entry harder.

Three, NYT predicted over a 90% chance on election night that Hillary would win, and many other news sources expected an outright sweep. I'd call that a pretty big fault by the polls. The popular vote isn't what wins you the presidency, I'm sure you know that.
 
Irony overdose, one, if we're talking about laughing at logical fallacy.

Two, I believe in the term "work smart not hard," and I think a wall is the simplest way to limit further illegal immigration (and I stress illegal more than anything). Jim Acosta showcased that pretty well, and you can look at the stats for areas with updated border fencing like Phoenix, AZ, where illegal immigration rates have plummeted. Pretty strong correlation if you ask me. Don't beat the dead horse I think it's blatant that tall barriers make illegal entry harder.

Three, NYT predicted over a 90% chance on election night that Hillary would win, and many other news sources expected an outright sweep. I'd call that a pretty big fault by the polls. The popular vote isn't what wins you the presidency, I'm sure you know that.
i think Myzozoa already pointed this out earlier in the thread but the bulk of illegal immigration comes from people who overstay their visa. here is a source. if you care so much about illegal immigration, staring yourself blind on the wall may just be a really stupid thing to do. by the way, illegal border crossing has generally been trending downwards judging by these stats that observe differences in amount of unauthorized immigrants between 2007 and 2016. it is true that arizona has seen a sharper decrease than any other state, but don't you think that may have something to do with the extremely strict anti-immigration policy that was passed in 2010? like, personally i find this sort of policy disgusting, but if you're one of those guys who's really gung-ho on muh illegal immigration, maybe you'd be better off going for stricter policy rather than an expensive and possibly-not-so-effective wall. it's really the diametric opposite of that "work smart not hard" platitude you believe in
 
Also if you oppose illegal immigration an even better policy would be jailing those who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, because they enable illegal immigration more than anything. If there weren’t a demand for cheap labor that only immigrants are willing to do (because it pays a wage that you can only sustain the lowest standard of living on), immigration would decrease. I wonder why politicians like Trump or Devin Nunes don’t support this kind of policy though.
 
i think Myzozoa already pointed this out earlier in the thread but the bulk of illegal immigration comes from people who overstay their visa. here is a source. if you care so much about illegal immigration, staring yourself blind on the wall may just be a really stupid thing to do. by the way, illegal border crossing has generally been trending downwards judging by these stats that observe differences in amount of unauthorized immigrants between 2007 and 2016. it is true that arizona has seen a sharper decrease than any other state, but don't you think that may have something to do with the extremely strict anti-immigration policy that was passed in 2010? like, personally i find this sort of policy disgusting, but if you're one of those guys who's really gung-ho on muh illegal immigration, maybe you'd be better off going for stricter policy rather than an expensive and possibly-not-so-effective wall. it's really the diametric opposite of that "work smart not hard" platitude you believe in
One glaring issue, 60% of all illegal immigration is border crossings, with overstayed visas coming in at around 40%.

Let's assume though that's wrong for the sake of argument, there is still a significantly large quantity of people who aren't entering the US and are committing crime aside from already breaking the law via illegal entrance. So I think its absolutely fair to say that it's a problem. Why not agree that both are bad, because I certainly think they are.

Two, a wall wouldn't be effective why? Lmao
 
One glaring issue, 60% of all illegal immigration is border crossings, with overstayed visas coming in at around 40%.

Let's assume though that's wrong for the sake of argument, there is still a significantly large quantity of people who aren't entering the US and are committing crime aside from already breaking the law via illegal entrance. So I think its absolutely fair to say that it's a problem. Why not agree that both are bad, because I certainly think they are.

Two, a wall wouldn't be effective why? Lmao

I don't think anyone's saying it wouldn't decrease illegal immigration (at least, initially). The point is that it will cost an absolute fortune to build and run (I posted on the last page roughly how much), and it won't make enough of a difference to justify the costs. Don't forget of course that Mexico said categorically they weren't paying for it, so of course it's all taxpayer money.

I don't agree with illegal immigration, but I just don't think a wall is the answer. I think you'd be better off spending the money on stuff like education, healthcare, green energy, infastructure and improving care for wounded veterans.
 
Now ofcourse the links i used above can certainly be inaccurate which i can't exactly confirm because they were only googled but hey at this point I think you can trust your own gut and tell yourself if American journalism is still as reliable as it was 50 years ago or has it completely fell from its former glory.
I don't appreciate the laziness of not verifying the source before sharing it with us and expecting posters to carry that burden. I find it ironic you tell us to not blanket trust mainstream media but just grab results from Google (which has a reputation for politically skewing your results based on your browsing history; see filter bubble) without any real thought put to them. Likewise, these sources you posted are similar to mainstream sources or sources mainstream media would probably use, so it's kind of... off that you'd use sources from mainstream media to try to discredit mainstream media.

At least you're self-aware, but this advice runs exactly the opposite of healthy critical thinking (as well as the rest of your post which jabs mainstream media), and I strongly discourage to "run" with your gut and I also don't encourage to actively "distrust" media. This sort of thing is why we got fake news as news reports on things people don't like so they seek out literal fake news that confirms their prejudices. Oftentimes, our "gut" is, well, full of shit, so I say use your brain instead and instead do what skeptics do: read all the article rather than the headlines, read the useful comments that point out problems, ask yourself what emotions you're feeling and ask if this article is intended to pull on your strings, read the "about" parts, google search the article to verify, check fact-checkers like snopes, WaPo, politico, and so on; check other articles, check what other things the author wrote, check the date published. It takes training to figure it out, but it's far better than just relying on our gut that has been stained by political biases.

To say that American journalism was better 50 years ago is to demonstrate some real ignorance of history too, as "fake news" and misreporting on stuff is arguably older than accuracy and fact-checking. While mainstream media is held to pretty strict standards and collaborate from outsider sources, a lot of media that's spread on facebook and so on don't have those sort of standards and is the reason fake news became so noxious.

And my stance on absolutely not "trusting" your gut is also supported by this study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001002771830163X?via=ihub
Despite your calls of saying that all political wings are receptive to fake news, conservatives are far more receptive to misappropriating news they don't like as fake. This is also supported in the study as well, though it's not really explored in the abstract,, and this study isn't available without paying for it, but I've seen the study.

Let's assume though that's wrong for the sake of argument, there is still a significantly large quantity of people who aren't entering the US and are committing crime aside from already breaking the law via illegal entrance. So I think its absolutely fair to say that it's a problem. Why not agree that both are bad, because I certainly think they are.

Two, a wall wouldn't be effective why? Lmao
Your point is already addressed later, but there are other flaws in your post. Such as the "already breaking the law via illegal entrance"...

https://www.politifact.com/florida/...bishops/being-united-states-unlawfully-crime/
It is generally accurate that the simple act of being in the United States illegally is not, by itself, a crime. Rather, it’s a civil violation that puts the individual at risk for deportation, but not for criminal prosecution. However, it’s worth noting that someone who is unlawfully present might still have committed a related crime by entering the United States after having been deported, for instance, or entering in an illegal manner.
Also, the act of crossing a border illegally would be a crime, but we've established that a huge portion of these immigrants have crossed the border legally and had overstaid visas. Those people wouldn't be criminals.

I don't think anyone's saying it wouldn't decrease illegal immigration (at least, initially). The point is that it will cost an absolute fortune to build and run (I posted on the last page roughly how much), and it won't make enough of a difference to justify the costs. Don't forget of course that Mexico said categorically they weren't paying for it, so of course it's all taxpayer money.
It wouldn't decrease illegal immigration by any significant amount. We might net with more undocumented immigrants as this sort of border crap only makes the bureaucracy untenable for legal migrants (it already is, as it costs a lot to be a legal immigrant) and would only facilitate expiration of documents and all. Unlike the simplistic world of Donald Trump, people have a ton of reasons for illegal immigration and they tend to be real and complicated reasons where simplistic solutions might calm the minds of his base but serve to excaberate problems in reality and push the income divide even further. Also, that wall is an ecological disaster by fragmenting habitat (like Trump and his supporters care) and some lines of that wall were cut straight through some towns.

Two, I believe in the term "work smart not hard," and I think a wall is the simplest way to limit further illegal immigration (and I stress illegal more than anything). Jim Acosta showcased that pretty well, and you can look at the stats for areas with updated border fencing like Phoenix, AZ, where illegal immigration rates have plummeted. Pretty strong correlation if you ask me. Don't beat the dead horse I think it's blatant that tall barriers make illegal entry harder.
Right-wing commentators love to bring up Jim Acosta on how he apparently unwittingly demonstrated how effective walls are at illegal immigration, but that incident is purely anecdote and proves nothing especially on the long-term. There's no way of knowing if there were people before the wall was built, controlling for confounders such as people finding other routes, and so on. Yes, Jim Acosta is no authority on the effectiveness on wall measures but just because he didn't think through some of his comments doesn't mean anything to me.

The wall is simple but it is, frankly, a thoroughly stupid idea. It's on the same line as "why don't we print more money to solve income inequality?". Ignorant, childish, simplistic, naive, shouldn't ever be seriously considered.
 
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Let me repeat again, before going into anything.

Let's assume though that's wrong for the sake of argument, there is still a significantly large quantity of people who aren't entering the US and are committing crime aside from already breaking the law via illegal entrance. So I think its absolutely fair to say that it's a problem. Why not agree that both are bad, because I certainly think they are.

do you even read the sources you or others post?

Does a baby crawl? If you read further into the guy's source, firstly you need to remember that Obama instated a catch-and-release policy. Secondly:

  • In 2014, about 4.5 million US residents, or 42 percent of the total undocumented population, were overstays.

It's very fair to say that I'm not far off if at all, but hey, I'm sorry, I don't read apparently. Clearly.

I don't appreciate the laziness of not verifying the source before sharing it with us and expecting posters to carry that burden. I find it ironic you tell us to not blanket trust mainstream media but just grab results from Google (which has a reputation for politically skewing your results based on your browsing history; see filter bubble) without any real thought put to them. Likewise, these sources you posted are similar to mainstream sources or sources mainstream media would probably use, so it's kind of... off that you'd use sources from mainstream media to try to discredit mainstream media.

At least you're self-aware, but this advice runs exactly the opposite of healthy critical thinking (as well as the rest of your post which jabs mainstream media), and I strongly discourage to "run" with your gut and I also don't encourage to actively "distrust" media. This sort of thing is why we got fake news as news reports on things people don't like so they seek out literal fake news that confirms their prejudices. Oftentimes, our "gut" is, well, full of shit, so I say use your brain instead and instead do what skeptics do: read all the article rather than the headlines, read the useful comments that point out problems, ask yourself what emotions you're feeling and ask if this article is intended to pull on your strings, read the "about" parts, google search the article to verify, check fact-checkers like snopes, WaPo, politico, and so on; check other articles, check what other things the author wrote, check the date published. It takes training to figure it out, but it's far better than just relying on our gut that has been stained by political biases.

To say that American journalism was better 50 years ago is to demonstrate some real ignorance of history too, as "fake news" and misreporting on stuff is arguably older than accuracy and fact-checking. While mainstream media is held to pretty strict standards and collaborate from outsider sources, a lot of media that's spread on facebook and so on don't have those sort of standards and is the reason fake news became so noxious.

And my stance on absolutely not "trusting" your gut is also supported by this study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001002771830163X?via=ihub
Despite your calls of saying that all political wings are receptive to fake news, conservatives are far more receptive to misappropriating news they don't like as fake. This is also supported in the study as well, though it's not really explored in the abstract,, and this study isn't available without paying for it, but I've seen the study.


Your point is already addressed later, but there are other flaws in your post. Such as the "already breaking the law via illegal entrance"...

https://www.politifact.com/florida/...bishops/being-united-states-unlawfully-crime/

Also, the act of crossing a border illegally would be a crime, but we've established that a huge portion of these immigrants have crossed the border legally and had overstaid visas. Those people wouldn't be criminals.


It wouldn't decrease illegal immigration by any significant amount. We might net with more undocumented immigrants as this sort of border crap only makes the bureaucracy untenable for legal migrants (it already is, as it costs a lot to be a legal immigrant) and would only facilitate expiration of documents and all. Unlike the simplistic world of Donald Trump, people have a ton of reasons for illegal immigration and they tend to be real and complicated reasons where simplistic solutions might calm the minds of his base but serve to excaberate problems in reality and push the income divide even further. Also, that wall is an ecological disaster by fragmenting habitat (like Trump and his supporters care) and some lines of that wall were cut straight through some towns.


Right-wing commentators love to bring up Jim Acosta on how he apparently unwittingly demonstrated how effective walls are at illegal immigration, but that incident is purely anecdote and proves nothing especially on the long-term. There's no way of knowing if there were people before the wall was built, controlling for confounders such as people finding other routes, and so on. Yes, Jim Acosta is no authority on the effectiveness on wall measures but just because he didn't think through some of his comments doesn't mean anything to me.

The wall is simple but it is, frankly, a thoroughly stupid idea. It's on the same line as "why don't we print more money to solve income inequality?". Ignorant, childish, simplistic, naive, shouldn't ever be seriously considered.

Do you really want to know what's stupid? Saying that crossing the border not through a point of entry is not illegal. That source is simply playing semantics to soften what it really is, much like calling illegal immigrants undocumented instead. That, my friend, is pathetic and naive. Also, try climbing a 30 feet steel slat barrier, then you get back to me on why you suppose that's a stupid idea. The president originally asked for only 5.7 billion for a better barrier, which is pretty damn reasonable. ICE supported that fully, and they supported him throughout the shut-down. You can literally go back to their testimonies during the shutdown as to why the wall is a pretty good thing, because it's pretty widespread (but as a brief tl;dw, it lessens the work significantly for ICE patrol officers when it comes to apprehension as it centralizes people attempting to jump the border to more concentrated areas). Also, the wall is not and would not be an ecological disaster, it's been built in the middle of a freaking desert for starters. That's a poor argument.

Also, for the record mate, the media, as a whole, has been skewed largely to the left in recent years. Ashesbi's point isn't far off the map. There was still fact-checkers then, only now many of the fact-checkers are pretty politically biased. Don't get me wrong, Trump fibs, but the media's attempt to "spread the truth," in reality has been misleading, and it's been excessive (the recent reactions to the Mueller report being a great example, or during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings).[/quote]
 
You fail to appreciate that what you trivialize as a mere "play on semantics" is actually super important when it comes to interpretation of the law. Being specific with semantics is extremely important in trying to wrangle with legal definitions here; some loopholes rely on these interpretations by unintentionally excluding some technicalities. Politifact also cites appropriate authorities that agree that your definition of what's considered a crime is not what the law thinks. It's not a matter of disagreement or people are just twisting words to sound sympathetic to language related illegal immigrants, you're plain out wrong. "Undocumented immigrants" is correct and accurate (as it encompasses the wide range of people and is consistent with the legal definition of overstaying the visa) and experts agree on it.

I mean yeah the wall is gonna have some effect on the ease of crossing the border but you have to build the thing in the first place and people end up flying over the wall or just climbing over it with a ladder or digging underneath it. Didn't deny there is going to be some deterrence but this is like saying a gun to the cancer cells in a petri dish kills the cancer cells and so it can cure cancer. I find the 5.7 billion amount that you shrug off as "reasonable" laughable, 5.7 billion dollars for a barely effective wall. And that's not going into the maintenance for that thing as well as the ecological costs that come with it and also the cost of employing enforcement.

Also, the posters pointed out that the date of your source makes that source irrelevant. Your source is published from 2006 when the claim you disputed uses a time frame beginning 2007. This is why they accused you of not reading your sources.

You're also cherry picking the source and also referring to the total undocumented population when the argument was referring to entries. This is the full quote.

The report presents information about the mode of arrival of the undocumented population that resided in the United States in 2014. To simplify the presentation, it divides the 2014 population into two groups: overstays and entries without inspection (EWIs). The term overstay, as used in this paper, refers to undocumented residents who entered the United States with valid temporary visas and subsequently established residence without authorization. The term EWI refers to undocumented residents who entered without proper immigration documents across the southern border.

The estimates are based primarily on detailed estimates of the undocumented population in 2014 compiled by CMS and estimates of overstays for 2015 derived by DHS. Major findings include the following:
  • In 2014, about 4.5 million US residents, or 42 percent of the total undocumented population, were overstays.
  • Overstays accounted for about two-thirds (66 percent) of those who arrived (i.e., joined the undocumented population) in 2014.
  • Overstays have exceeded EWIs every year since 2007, and 600,000 more overstays than EWIs have arrived since 2007.
  • Mexico is the leading country for both overstays and EWIs; about one-third of undocumented arrivals from Mexico in 2014 were overstays.
  • California has the largest number of overstays (890,000), followed by New York (520,000), Texas (475,000), and Florida (435,000).
  • Two states had 47 percent of the 6.4 million EWIs in 2014: California (1.7 million) and Texas (1.3 million).
  • The percentage of overstays varies widely by state: more than two-thirds of the undocumented who live in Hawaii, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania are overstays. By contrast, the undocumented population in Kansas, Arkansas, and New Mexico consists of fewer than 25 percent overstays.

I don't buy the "liberal" media narrative either. FOX still has sky-high ratings and conservative talk dominates radio after the Fairness Doctrine is gone, and the definition of "media" is too vague to assess what people mean by "liberal" media. Don't think media is misleading either, they just have bad priorities.
 
You fail to appreciate that what you trivialize as a mere "play on semantics" is actually super important when it comes to interpretation of the law. Being specific with semantics is extremely important in trying to wrangle with legal definitions here; some loopholes rely on these interpretations by unintentionally excluding some technicalities. Politifact also cites appropriate authorities that agree that your definition of what's considered a crime is not what the law thinks. It's not a matter of disagreement or people are just twisting words to sound sympathetic to language related illegal immigrants, you're plain out wrong. "Undocumented immigrants" is correct and accurate (as it encompasses the wide range of people and is consistent with the legal definition of overstaying the visa) and experts agree on it.

I mean yeah the wall is gonna have some effect on the ease of crossing the border but you have to build the thing in the first place and people end up flying over the wall or just climbing over it with a ladder or digging underneath it. Didn't deny there is going to be some deterrence but this is like saying a gun to the cancer cells in a petri dish kills the cancer cells and so it can cure cancer. I find the 5.7 billion amount that you shrug off as "reasonable" laughable, 5.7 billion dollars for a barely effective wall. And that's not going into the maintenance for that thing as well as the ecological costs that come with it and also the cost of employing enforcement.

Also, the posters pointed out that the date of your source makes that source irrelevant. Your source is published from 2006 when the claim you disputed uses a time frame beginning 2007. This is why they accused you of not reading your sources.

You're also cherry picking the source and also referring to the total undocumented population when the argument was referring to entries. This is the full quote.



I don't buy the "liberal" media narrative either. FOX still has sky-high ratings and conservative talk dominates radio after the Fairness Doctrine is gone, and the definition of "media" is too vague to assess what people mean by "liberal" media. Don't think media is misleading either, they just have bad priorities.
Ok, you have some issues here. Firstly, no, it's still illegal to enter the US via hopping the fence for example. That's illegal entry, so let's keep that plain jane as it should be. On that note, undocumented still means illegal no matter how you want to spin that, it's still illegal entry. I don't see why that's hard to understand.

Secondly, you think it's gonna be quick to burrow under the fence or bring a later out in the middle of the desert (depending on where you are of course)? It is not even close to shooting a gun at cancer cells where it can spread again, you're making it significantly easier for patrol agents to do their jobs to protecting us. What you call barely effective has been doing its job where it's been erected. I find that pretty laughable; you're throwing out basic logic. You think the metal slats from the Vietnam War that've been in some of the parts of the border are gonna do better, or, hell, just have open borders? Also, what ecological costs? I'll repeat, you're building it in the middle of a desert.

Additionally, I'm not cherry-picking that stat if that's the premise. Most illegal immigrants in the US currently are from via illegal crossing. Only 42% out of that entire population are visa overstays. My point stands, nice try.

Like I said, if you don't buy the "liberal media" narrative, go back to Brett Kavanaugh or even just recently the Mueller Report, and you tell me. Fox is only one fish in the sea (not that I necessarily love them either lol), but, I suppose we can find common ground on the bad priorities point. You can take CNN for example, they claim they're objective journalists when its so unbelievably blatant how far to the left they are. Same for the NYT. I'd be a bit lighter if they acknowledged their bias at least.
 
I'm not sure what "my issues" are but I'm seeing problems with your reasoning and I'm pointing them out and I don't believe you're really understanding my points nor are you understanding why people are disagreeing with you.

The article in Politifact says that the method of entry is illegal and that is a crime, which is true. But your characterization of undocumented as illegal is completely wrong. There is a distinction between illegal entry and being undocumented. Actually, illegal entry would fall under the undocumented branch, but take note that illegal entry leaves out those with expired visas, who entered the country legally otherwise. And that's what the argument used to be, that those kinds of incoming (different from total) undocumented immigrants now outnumber illegal border crossing. But you dismiss it as just tone policing and I said that's not the case, it's just legal definitions explained. And again, the Politifact uses legal experts (though I'm not sure if Cato really is valid authority but whatever, they have professors) for an opinion and since you're not a legal expert yourself, it's reasonable to assume they know what the hell they're talking about. You just can't say, "Oh but I disagree" especially not without reasoning, which I fail to find in your posts. You assume it's hard for me to understand, but you seem to lack a grasp on how laws and semantics work and it's very apparent you don't read the sources given to you.

And yeah, ladders aren't hard to transport. Tunnels have been made. I made that comparison of the gun and cancer cels because the cost-benefit ratio is somewhere around there: useless. Again, I didn't deny it has some benefits like making border patrol easier (a bit, but I think they now have an additional job in making sure no one vandalizes or damages the wall), but the costs clearly outweigh the benefits.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/borders-and-walls-do-barriers-deter-unauthorized-migration
But what about their use as a way to keep out unauthorized migrants? While advanced as a popular solution, the evidence is mixed on whether walls are effective at preventing large movements of people across borders. Of course, there is little doubt that walls short in length and heavily guarded with troops or law enforcement officers can be very effective at stopping movement. This is the logic behind medieval city walls and prisons today. Indeed, short sections of walls have also proved effective at decreasing movement across international borders. This was demonstrated in the 1990s on the U.S.-Mexico border when the first sections of fencing were built in El Paso and near San Diego, supported by large deployments of Border Patrol agents. In the weeks that followed, crossings in those sectors dropped to almost zero. Similarly, the construction of Hungary’s border fence in 2015 was backed up with border guards, and consequently, crossings dropped substantially.


However, in both cases fortified walls did not prevent crossings into the United States and European Union entirely, but instead shifted flows to other locations that were more remote or less fortified. In the U.S. case, as high-traffic urban routes were closed, migrants and smugglers began to cross in the remote and dangerous deserts of western Arizona. Child migration from Central America to the United States, which surged in 2014, has also been undeterred by enforcement (in fact most unaccompanied minors turn themselves in to border agents), as tens of thousands of children from El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala spontaneously arrive at the U.S. border with Mexico to claim asylum, many knowing they would be admitted into the U.S. pending removal hearings. In the European migration crisis in 2016, once land routes through the Balkans were closed, migrants adjusted by shifting their routes to board boats across the Mediterranean, frequently from Libya.

Your comeback that "it's building in a middle of a desert" is completely wrong. It's not "just" in the middle of the desert. It's going to cut through scrubland, marshes, forests, and so on. It'll fragment environments affecting, according to National Geographic, "1,506 native animals and plants, including 62 species that are listed as critically endangered". It'll promote soil erosion, leading to worse floods (it doesn't help that the president is a climate change denier). It'll disrupt migration patterns. It'll cut through national parks.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...wall-could-impact-environment-wildlife-water/https://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/26/environmental-impact-us-mexico-border-wall-426310.htmlhttps://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-07-25/donald-trump-border-wall-mexico-environment/10025590
And "nice try", you completely ignored the rest of the quote and decided to fixate on a statistic that's not quite relevant to the discussion (the total amount of undocumented immigrants) when the discussion was about incoming undocumented immigrants.

My idea is just not have walls, lol, our current system is already in place and it seems to be working all right but it's convoluted and messy and makes it unnecessarily hard for immigrants to come here and it's stupid you need a hefty amount of money for the legal immigration process, so IMO illegal immigration is inevitable, but with our system, it's nothing to be scared about.

I haven't been following Brett Kavanaugh but all I know is that it's a media circus and I don't think Brett is qualified and people treated his accusers like shit, so. As for Mueller, I don't see how it concludes anything. No indictments doesn't mean we pack up our bags and go and doesn't necessarily mean no evidence for collusion. But yeah, I'd imagine this would be something Trump can trot out all I want, he's still awful.

CNN isn't far left though. Neither is New York Times. They're pretty centrist.
 
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