National Dex Overall a Mostly Gimmicky but Fun Team (Please Advise)

[Hematite]

Hello! I'm hoping to get some feedback on a team I've been using in National Dex.

My main goal in making this team was mostly just to use Pokémon and sets that I thought looked fun to use, but to use them as well as I could - it's definitely not a top-tier competitive team or anything, but it's still been really enjoyable to use, and I've at least done better than I usually do, haha. (For reference, the team is currently actually legal for National Dex UU, although I've been using it in OU anyway because I can never seem to find battles on the Nexus server that hosts UU. That's not necessarily something that's super important to maintain and isn't "the point" of the team - I'm definitely open to recommendations that are from OU as well - but it kinda goes to show where my priorities have been so far...)

That said, the reason I'm posting it for feedback is not because I expect to be able to make it to the top of the ladder or anything - it's still mostly a "for fun" team rather than a "for glory" one - but I still definitely think that a) I can learn a lot more from it and b) I can make better use of it these Pokémon than I have been, so any feedback on them would be super valuable to me!
Also, a small note: I am absolutely terrible with defensive EV investment! Most of them are just really basic 252/252/4s, and for Mimikyu and Incineroar specifically (the two with the most "precise-looking" EVs), I sort of just toyed with their stats until I got what I thought was the most bulk possible (I think sustained damage is at its lowest when HP and the relevant defensive stat are as close as possible), with Special Defense being 50% higher than Defense since they both have ways to reduce physical damage by a third. These really don't meet any specific benchmarks, and I am super open to advice in this area especially.

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With that in mind, here is the team in its current state:

/ Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-o-Wisp
- Encore
- Recover
- Foul Play

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Sableye is probably my favorite Pokémon on the team; it shuts down physical attackers very reliably and totally messes with setup sweepers.

When I first started out, I had a more gimmicky set with Wonder Room, which I meant to use (in conjunction with Prankster and Recover) to allow it to stall out special attackers as well. That was actually the original reason why it's biased towards physical Defense rather than using EVs to cover its weaker Special Defense at all. However, it wasn't very effective as a special wall because it was just too passive against them; I could barely keep up with healing when I had to reset Wonder Room every fifth turn, and Sableye's other moves didn't really help it to do anything back, since Will-o-Wisp and Foul Play are both only really good against physical attackers. (There were also a few cases when I actively regretted using Wonder Room, because my other Pokémon mostly had better Special Defense than Defense; if Sableye went down or if I wanted to switch because it couldn't take hits well enough, Wonder Room only made the opponents hit my other Pokémon even harder.)
And then I learned that Sableye got Encore now and immediately went for that instead, and I haven't regretted it at all! Prankster Encore is an extremely fun option to have.

In my experience, this Sableye set just completely dismantles a ton of threatening physical attackers all by itself, especially ones that rely on setup moves. After a Will-o-Wisp, pretty much nothing seems to outdamage Recover (usually, I can afford to Recover only every second turn and Foul Play between them), so I'm usually
I'm not sure if players would fall for this as often if I managed to climb very far in the ladder (I think my peak was barely over 1400, ahah), but a lot of the people I fight tend to think of Sableye as passive even against physical attackers - if I burn them, but they set up a Shell Smash or a Swords Dance on the same turn and it seems like it just cancels out, so many people will then go for a second boost thinking that I'm either going to switch or try to chip them down slowly and they have a free turn, but Foul Play just oneshots them instead. (As a minor note, Foul Play also KOs Blacephalon without fail from full HP, and in my experience, Sableye can afford to take one attack from it even after a Beast Boost if the situation gets out of hand and I don't have a safe opportunity to switch in.)
Even though I started out with a bias towards physical Defense only because of Wonder Room - I had just wanted either one of my defenses to be as high as possible and thought it wouldn't matter which - I've decided to keep that even after switching to Encore, because Sableye is pretty specifically geared towards beating physical attackers anyway. It would be nice to have another Pokémon that's more capable of handling special attackers, but Sableye's moveset works better if it takes as little as possible from physical moves, and its actual role in battle doesn't really benefit from being able to take strong Special hits, so I didn't think it was worth it to go for a more balanced spread.

Sableye is usually my go-to lead, unless it looks like it won't fare well against the majority of the opposing team or I'm really confident in what I think their lead will be, in which case I'll just go for the best matchup I can.
That said, I usually only Mega Evolve as late in the game as possible - if I've already beaten all of the non-Dark, non-Fire physical attackers - because Prankster is more useful than Magic Bounce in most situations, but I sometimes Mega Evolve sooner against stall teams (where reflecting status is always important and nothing looks physically threatening enough in the first place) or if I think it's the only way to live a hit against something that will definitely beat the rest of my Pokémon anyway. This does have the drawback that I can't generally use Magic Bounce to defend against hazard setters, which is why I eventually added Moltres to the team, but... well, I'll get to that in a bit.

Mimikyu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 226 HP / 36 Def / 246 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

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This is... uh... not a standard Mimikyu, as you can see. It's definitely not that great at the things Mimikyu is normally supposed to do and not the most consistent of sets, and I haven't totally ruled out just giving up and using a more normal sweeping set, but in the edge cases when this actually works, it's really fun to use, which is why I've stuck with it so long, haha.

I initially just came up with this set because I noticed that Mimikyu got Drain Punch and knew that that would make for perfect neutral coverage with a Ghost STAB, and since Mimikyu can already boost its Attack essentially for free a single time (aside from when facing Melmetal, that is), I thought that would be able to compensate well enough for a lack of investment there (in theory, a +2 Mimikyu with no Attack investment is roughly equivalent to something unboosted but fully invested with about base 166?). The Kee Berry is also set off for free if I'm facing a physical attacker when Disguise is still up, so that can help a bit in taking hits.
The problem, of course, is that both Drain Punch and Shadow Claw are very low in power, so that doesn't actually amount to enough damage to carry it (aside from occasionally cleaning Ghost-weak sweepers); I often have trouble making effective use of it with only one boost, and it's very hard to secure more than one. A lot of people also send in Steel-types to face Mimikyu, and I expected Drain Punch as surprise coverage to be useful against them, but since Steel-types in general are also quite bulky, I lose the damage race against most of them anyway.

If anyone has tips for EV investment on this, that would be a huge help - are there any notable Attack or Speed benchmarks I should be hitting even if I want to dedicate most of my EVs to bulk? This is something that I'd like to see work if it's possible, so any advice to improve on this concept would be greatly appreciated!
Or if this set seems like a total lost cause, that's fair, too - I've used more standard Mimikyu in the past and can definitely adjust (or use a different team member if Mimikyu seems like a bad fit otherwise).

Reuniclus @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Future Sight
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

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This is a set I picked up directly from a thread on National Dex and not my own creation, but it just looked incredibly fun to use, and it totally has been.
I've found this to be the single most consistent source of damage on the team, and Regenerator is a huge plus that makes it easier to capitalize on Future Sight - there are plenty of cases when I'm able to restore HP, switch to something that resists an incoming move and still do major damage with Future Sight all in the same turn.
Aside from that, it's also pretty common that I use Future Sight and then need to switch out right away because something else is threatening Reuniclus, and I actually really like that Future Sight is on a delay for this reason - if people switch in their Reuniclus counters as soon as they see it, that's probably not the Pokémon I want Future Sight to be hitting anyway, so being able to switch to something else and force that threat out can make Future Sight more reliable. If the opponent specifically has a Dark-type, I can also expect them to send it in on the turn that Future Sight hits and can plan accordingly.

I most often find myself switching from Reuniclus to Incineroar - Reuniclus is obviously bulkier on the special side, while Incineroar has Intimidate, resists Ghost and Dark and is able to threaten Bug-types offensively, so it's almost always a safe switch-in if Reuniclus is in danger.

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 244 HP / 100 Def / 164 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Parting Shot
- Will-o-Wisp

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Here's the Incineroar in question! Like I explained above, I really love the way that it pairs with Reuniclus; speaking more broadly, the combination of Intimidate and a slow Parting Shot can frequently help to get the rest of the team in more safely.

I actually adjusted the set pretty recently - I was initially using it with U-turn and Earthquake instead of Parting Shot and Will-o-Wisp - and I'm sort of torn on which option is better. I haven't really found myself using Will-o-Wisp at all - it might be useful in the incredibly specific scenario that I run into a Dark-type physical sweeper before I want to Mega Evolve Sableye, but Sableye is the more reliable user in the vast majority of cases (and I can't really think of any problematic Dark-type physical sweepers that aren't frail and weak to Fire, so if I'm getting in a move at all, I would probably just rather Flare Blitz them). I also sort of miss using U-turn to punish Dark-type switch-ins on the turn of Future Sight; since it's hard to use Mimikyu safely early on and Focus Blast is easy to miss, it was probably the best anti-Dark measure I had, and it definitely augmented the synergy between Incineroar and Reuniclus.

Another thing holding it back... like I mentioned, it ends up switching in really often in a match, whether to hinder a physical threat with Intimidate or to take a hit for Reuniclus, and it has no recovery to keep from being worn down. I tried letting it hold Leftovers to compensate, but it quickly became apparent that the damage healed by the Leftovers is less than the damage prevented by Heavy Duty Boots, so it wasn't at all worth it.
(Just by writing all of this out, I almost wonder if I should try Drain Punch or Leech Life in that slot over Will-o-Wisp - I can keep Parting Shot as my pivoting move but get some Dark coverage and healing on the side?)

As I was gathering replays for this, I also found that Earthquake was serving me pretty well in most of the wins - maybe I should just go back to the previous set!

Uh... okay, so these last two are sort of the ones that I've struggled the most to use effectively - I'm not really confident that they're the right choices for this team, so I would be open to replacing them outright if anyone has any better advice.

Roserade @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Hidden Power: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Aromatherapy

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When I first chose a Pokémon for this slot, I was sort of just looking for a "late-game cleaner" if I just needed something reliable and fast - you'll notice that it's, uh, the only member of the team that maxes out its Speed (or even comes close to it). One of the reasons I picked Roserade in particular was because it could also run Aromatherapy alongside its main attacks, and status seemed like it would be a problem for my team... and it is nice to have that! But honestly, at this point, I think I've been using Roserade for Aromatherapy more than I've actually been using it to clean up, so it might be better to have a more dedicated cleric that's better at that role instead?

Alternatively, if I do keep Roserade for this role, I'm debating whether running a Choice Scarf might be a good idea - if the goal is to pick off weakened Pokémon rather than to sweep from the start, I think the biggest thing holding Roserade back is that it's not fast enough to revenge anything that's actually a threat. I'm not sure if that would mean dropping Aromatherapy or if having a fast Aromatherapy is justifiable even knowing that I'll have to switch back out right afterwards.

An earlier version of the set had Toxic Spikes instead of Sludge Bomb, so that's also an option - I don't know if I've used Sludge Bomb enough to be able to compare the two fairly. I did find that it was helpful to put a timer on sweepers, so I might prefer to go back? Stall teams usually get rid of them easily with Toxapex, but Poison-types are rarer on offensive teams, and it's not like Sludge Bomb is helping much with Poison-types or Steel-types. I think the only reason I got rid of Toxic Spikes was because it conflicted with Defog after I added Moltres, which is the last one I have to discuss.

Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane

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This is the most recent addition to the team, and I'm not really sure if I'm using it well. I initially added this because I was trying out Leftovers on Incineroar (the Pokémon in this slot before this was a Hatterene, which I love and enjoy using but which doesn't really add anything to this specific team) and wanted a defogger to get rid of hazards, but honestly, since switching back to Heavy Duty Boots, I'm... not totally convinced that the rest of my team even cares about hazards? Everyone but Incineroar already has some way to recover HP, and I (theoretically) have both a Toxic Spikes absorber and a cleric (although consolidating them into the same Pokémon and that Pokémon being a fast, frail attacker is a bit of a risk, so maybe Roserade and Moltres aren't really in competition with one another).

That said, the other nice thing about Moltres is that it has the most immediate damage output of the team - its Fire Blast and Hurricane both hit almost as hard as Reuniclus's Future Sight without any delay, and I have appreciated having this in a few cases. Defog also helps to mitigate the accuracy issues a little, which is nice. Being able to hit as hard as it does while also taking hits and having Roost, it's never felt like dead weight or anything! Still, I think this and Roserade are the two team members that I think do the least to support the team as it is, and I would be interested in exploring other options that might be better fits for the rest.

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Okay, now for some general threats to this team... The biggest ones that seem to give me trouble are Greninja, Chansey and Melmetal.

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I can at least handle Melmetal somewhat reliably, but being able to beat it is contingent on both Sableye and Incineroar being alive - Sableye needs to burn it before I do anything else, but even after that, Intimidate plus a Steel resist is really the only way I can handle Double Iron Bash. The fact that Melmetal are generally Banded is sort of the only thing stopping me from being swept, considering their insane coverage and damage output. And they obviously destroy Mimikyu, and Roserade has very little to hit them back before also going down... It would be nice to have something that can help it more reliably, at least as a backup plan if Sableye or Incineroar is too heavily damaged or already down by the time it shows up?

Ash-Greninja has been more of a problem than Protean Greninja (I think most of the Protean ones I've faced were Choiced, which made it easier to play around them?), but both of them are probably the biggest threat to the team. They're special attackers, so Sableye can barely take a hit and Intimidate doesn't help; they're Dark-type, so Prankster doesn't work (not that a burn or Encore would help much anyway), Future Sight doesn't put a timer on them like most fast, frail Pokémon, and they can do way too much damage to Reuniclus; they're also Water-type, which makes it easy for them to beat Incineroar and Moltres; Ash-Greninja in particular runs Water Shuriken, so they can bypass both Disguise and Shadow Sneak, while Protean ones only really need a single Dark Pulse flinch to beat Mimikyu; and they even usually run Ice Beam, which easily beats Roserade. It's like my team is tailor made to lose to Greninja, ahah - I've occasionally managed to pull through and beat them somehow, but it's always an unreliable, improvised strategy, and it consistently does a number on my team.

Volcarona is another threatening special attacker; usually, beating it comes down to using Moltres well enough, but they usually get to set up at least once when I switch to it, a lot of them take several hits to go down, and spamming Hurricane too many times is pretty unreliable, so it's pretty hard to beat.

Chansey is just hard for my team to break in general - I usually need Incineroar to Knock Off Eviolite before anything else gets done, and then... in theory, since Mimikyu can't be touched outside of Toxic, I can try setting up and using Drain Punch and then just using Aromatherapy later. In practice, though, it just never seems to go that way. The fact that Mimikyu needs to set up every time it enters just gives Chansey a free opportunity to use Toxic and leave, and that hurts my momentum way more than it hurts the other player's. My best way to deal with these is by Mega Evolving Sableye and stalling them out, but the cost of doing that before I've taken care of any physical attackers very often loses me the game anyway, so it's hard to get into a position to do even that much safely.

And, uh, here are some replays, I guess? Some of these are older than others, and I think they're chronological, but I wasn't super organized in saving replays; sorry about that.

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Some favorable examples of the team:
This is a good one for Mimikyu
Another good Mimikyu one
Narrowly winning against a threatening rain team
This one highlights Sableye pretty well
This mostly went quite badly but I sort of came through (actually it was a forfeit and I'm not confident that I would have won if we continued but I will take it)
Here's one where Reuniclus was the MVP
The team generally working well together (1404 might've been my peak actually haha)
A fun, close battle
This wasn't a proper battle at all, but I thought it was funny
More of the team working pretty well together
I think the only reason I won this was the lucky Rock Slide miss but I will post it anyway

And some losses:
A loss that has nothing to do with Chansey! This was actually super fun and close (includes Volcarona, but not actually very prominently)
Another non-Chansey loss!
Chansey beating me
A clear demonstration of how easily Ash-Greninja destroys me
Losing to a team with Volcarona (I also used to be a lot worse at dealing with Mega Blastoise than I am after adding Encore, although I don't think that was as relevant here)
Chansey beating me again
I think I played this one badly in general, but I came kinda close in the end?
I played very badly and... Chansey beat me again




yes they're all named after tenuously related Specter of Torment characters

Last thing: here's an importable if it's more useful than the sets being split up like this!

Okay, I hope I set this up correctly! Thank you so much in advance for any help or advice you can give! C:

 

[HottieLamatie]

Hi there!

I'm no pro, so I'll try to keep my advice strictly to what I feel really confident in. Well, the advice I'm confident in; suggestions for specific Pokémon might be a little more dicey. XD

It looks like your team doesn't have any Speed control. While a lot of your team has (almost) no Speed EVs, it also has mostly slow Pokémon. So I feel like it would make sense to use Trick Room or do something with like...Tailwind? You could use Prankster/Thunder Wave perhaps, or even Electroweb. I worry also that Moltres will get wiped out before getting to use Defog - being your dedicated Defoger, lacking Speed and especially being 4x weak to Rock suggests that Defog won't work. You also have a Fire-type already, so perhaps you could use...is Empoleon a possbility? A Water-type Defoger could be good. Other options might be Swanna or Pelipper, I think?

I hope this helps!

 

[theotherguytm]

Hi there!

I'm no pro, so I'll try to keep my advice strictly to what I feel really confident in. Well, the advice I'm confident in; suggestions for specific Pokémon might be a little more dicey. XD

It looks like your team doesn't have any Speed control. While a lot of your team has (almost) no Speed EVs, it also has mostly slow Pokémon. So I feel like it would make sense to use Trick Room or do something with like...Tailwind? You could use Prankster/Thunder Wave perhaps, or even Electroweb. I worry also that Moltres will get wiped out before getting to use Defog - being your dedicated Defoger, lacking Speed and especially being 4x weak to Rock suggests that Defog won't work. You also have a Fire-type already, so perhaps you could use...is Empoleon a possbility? A Water-type Defoger could be good. Other options might be Swanna or Pelipper, I think?

I hope this helps!

I'm going to suggest you brush up on some of the basics, because to be honest, not a single suggestion you made is viable in Nat Dex OU. Sorry to be so blunt, but there's really no other way to put this. Hope you can become a more knowledgeable player with time, and help out here more in the future!

*snip*

Right, so looking at this, your team seems to be undecided if it wants to be an offensive team or a stall team. You have Hyper Offensive mons like Mimikyu on the same team as pivots and Stall staples like Mega Sableye. And generally speaking, picking and choosing usually leaves you with the worst of both (or however many) worlds. So what I'm going to do is convert this team to a Semi-Stall that has a bit more focus.

/ Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-o-Wisp
- Encore
- Recover
- Foul Play

Since we're playing stall, it is vital that Mega Sableye Mega Evolves as fast as possible, to keep hazards off your side of the field. With that in mind, I'd like to suggest the following set from the Smog Dex I've used with great results last gen.
Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
Prankster is still useful earlygame to spread burns and use priority Recover. But Mega Sableye loses Prankster and all Speed it had when it Mega Evolves. Thus it is vulnerable on the turn it Mega Evolves. Hence, Protect (or Fake Out, which does damage but leaves you vulnerable to Tapu Lele and Mega Gallade) is used on most Mega Sableye sets to Mega Evolve safely. The Specially Defensive spread helps it block various special attackers, as Will-O-Wisp handles the physical attackers. The other change is Knock Off, which is used to cripple anything trying to switch in or trying to heal up in front of Mega Sableye.

Mimikyu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 226 HP / 36 Def / 246 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

Mimikyu just doesn't fit this team. The one-time nature of Disguse just doesn't suit a longer game. So I'm going to complement your defensive spine with one of the best mons in the tier ATM:
Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet/Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball/Knock Off
- Stealth Rock/Spikes
- Power Whip
It is very hard to play Nat Dex OU without a check to Mega Metagross and Mega Blastiose. Ferrothorn checks both (most of the time). Rocky Helmet lets you brutally punish any Mega Metagross foolish enough to make contact with you, or Leftovers gives you some passive recovery. Leech Seed is key, letting you regain health while wearing down your opponents. Use its PP carefully. Gyro Ball just generally does massive damage to anything that doesn't resist it, while Knock Off is more suited to a longer battle. You didn't have any hazard setters on your old team, but Ferro is THE hazard setter to have. If you can find another hazard setter, let Ferro lay down the Spikes instead. Finally, Power Whip OHKOs Mega Blastiose that's used Shell Smash (as long as it isn't behind screens). However, keep in mind when battling that both of these Megas do have ways to beat Ferrothorn. Mega Gross can use Hammer Arm to 2HKO Ferrothorn, and Mega Toise can either OHKO it with Aura Sphere or 2HKO it with Dark Pulse from the safety of screens.

Reuniclus @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Future Sight
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

This set is intended to be used as a pivot, which is unfortunately not what stall needs. But since you're enjoying Reuniclus, I'm going to introduce you to the most scary wincon in all of Pokemon. Essentially, this is the "semi" in semi-stall.
Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Armor
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power/Psyshock
- Recover
Once Dark types on the opposing team are down/low on PP, Reuniclus can begin to set up. After a couple of Acid Armours and a few Calm Minds, Reuniclus is basically unstoppable. Try and get it poisoned or (better due to Foul Play) burned if you can, so that it can't be paralysed or put to sleep. The choice is between Stored Power, which OHKOs the entire non-Dark game after sufficient boosts, and Psyshock, which gives you an edge in Calm Mind wars, does more damage unboosted and beats certain Chansey faster, but takes more time to get to ludicrous damage. The Speed EVs let Reuniclus outspeed Toxapex, and attack before it can Haze away boosts. The trick to winning with this is to wear down the opposing team with entry hazards. Be patient, and be willing to switch out to avoid too much damage. Keep in mind sometimes you can PP stall opposing Dark types if you have enough boosts to stop them doing serious damage.

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 244 HP / 100 Def / 164 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Parting Shot
- Will-o-Wisp

Again, a pivot is not what stall calls for, and stacking weaknesses with Moltres and Ferrothorn is not a great idea. Instead:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
The Unware ability has been a staple of Stall since Gen 5. The ability to simply ignore boosted sweepers and stop them cold is invaluable. Combine this with Wish+Heal Bell, and hence the ability to heal up allies, throw in a great Fairy typing, and you have a staple mon on stall teams of all kinds. This does a similar job to Roserade in healing up your own team, and Protect allows Clef to heal itself with Wish safely.

Roserade @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Hidden Power: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Aromatherapy

Roserade, as you might have guessed from me moving cleric duties to Clefable, is not a mon that deserves a place on a serious team. It is outclassed by something whatever it tries to do, and its paper-thin defences are useless for stall.
Mandibuzz (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Taunt
- Knock Off/Toxic
So instead, here is the mandatory Aegi check for the team (totally not broken btw) to prevent you being 6-0ed by that. Foul Play deters setup and OHKOs Aegi in Blade Form. Roost is obvious. Taunt stops slower mons using status or setting hazards, and also helps the Aegi matchup further by preventing it going back into Shield Form, hitting you with Toxic or setting up. Knock Off is always a nice move to have, but you can spread Toxic instead if you prefer.

Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane

Moltres was what made me think "stall" when looking at this team, rather than just "random balance with Mega Sab". So a small tweak only.
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Substitute
The Speed allows you to outrun base 80s like Chandelure and Hoopa-U (because people run trash) and, more importantly, Timid Heatran. The addition of Substitute allows you to PP stall dangerous mons with Pressure.

Hope you enjoy this!

 

[HottieLamatie]

I'm going to suggest you brush up on some of the basics, because to be honest, not a single suggestion you made is viable in Nat Dex OU. Sorry to be so blunt, but there's really no other way to put this. Hope you can become a more knowledgeable player with time, and help out here more in the future!

Never be sorry for saying something that is both not rude and is easy to understand! I think I spaced out for a second and then just thought that this was Doubles OU. Speed, I think, is a lot more important in Doubles, and it's where I actually have any experience...so I probably wanted to be replying to a Doubles Team. Not how that works, of course!

My apologies to Hematite for the mishap, but glad it was addressed!

 

[Hematite]

Hi! Thank you both so much for your advice! I'll do my best to respond to both of you!

HottieLamatie:

Ah, no worries about the misunderstanding! The funny thing is that I actually did try using Trick Room in the first draft of the team (that was one of the moves on the Hatterene I mentioned that preceded Moltres), but... as I'm guessing you know by now, in single battles, I think five turns just doesn't last enough for it to support the rest of the team rather than only itself, and other forms of speed control like Tailwind and Icy Wind have an even shorter duration. (For what it's worth, I've heard of people using Uxie and Cresselia as Trick Room setters even in singles because of their bulk and their other utility options, so it's not necessarily impossible to make it work - but yeah, it's much less reliable as a basis for an entire team in singles than it is in doubles.)

With respect to doubling up on Fire-types, that is a good point! I think of your suggested Defoggers, Empoleon would probably be the best fit, since it has a resistance to Rock and some other useful resistances in general that might help it to switch in. Swanna's stats are pretty low overall, and Pelipper is mostly used because it can set up rain, which isn't something that my team generally wants (I think running it with Keen Eye would squander most of its potential).
I'm not sure if I'll get to try it out right away, since I've just gotten some other conflicting suggestions as well, but it's definitely a Pokémon I would love to use in the future, and a lot of this is up in the air right now anyway, so I totally might be able to work it into a later draft of the team!!

theotherguytm:

Whew, that's a big revision! Thank you so much for taking the time to do that!
That said, uh... I really, really hope that you don't take this the wrong way, because I genuinely do think you know what you're doing and that the team you proposed looks much more viable and consistent than mine, but I can't help but be a little confused by the choice to move all the way to semi-stall in the first place - it seems like it's a little bit removed from the intention of just improving the team.
I know that the rule in RMTs is just that you can't replace more than three Pokémon, but aside from the actual explicit limitation, I think the reason behind the rule is also important to keep in mind: it's to make sure that you're still focused on improving the original, not just making a whole new team all at once. I really appreciate your advice, but I can't help but be concerned that you may have gotten a bit carried away and lost sight of that...?
In this case, you did follow that rule to the letter - you only changed three Pokémon (Mimikyu, Incineroar and Roserade to Ferrothorn, Clefable and Mandibuzz) - but it seems like you were trying to squeeze as much as you could out of that limit to drive the team as far in another direction as possible, haha. For one thing, all three of the new Pokémon you added are stall staples, to the point that they're sort of the main reason why this is a stall team in the first place, even more so than the Pokémon you opted to keep (except Sableye); moreover, you suggested that even after replacing three Pokémon, the role Reuniclus was trying to fill was also getting in the way of being a stall team, and the new set you offered it is a completely different role with a different Ability and not a single move in common, which was basically as far as you could possibly get without replacing that with another species, too. (For that matter, even after such a radical change, you labeled Reuniclus the one thing making this "semi-stall" rather than stall.) I feel like, if you're replacing three entire members with the staples of the stall archetype and the ones that are left over are still getting in the way, it might not be a direction that fits the team super well in the first place?

It's also worth noting that what you cited as the main reason you opted to go for semi-stall in the first place was Moltres. I don't think you were wrong to interpret Moltres that way, but it's sort of confusing to me that you decided to base the whole team around this one Pokémon - I mentioned that it was one of the ones I was least confident in using and that I was more willing to remove it than some of the others...?
One thing that I guess is worth noting is the priorities I mentioned at the beginning of the post - for this to be a learning experience and to learn how to make better use of the Pokémon that interested me - and I feel like neither of these is really addressed by being handed a team that's almost totally different and being told to use a completely different set not because the first one was suboptimal and could be improved but because it wasn't the role it should be filling in the context of the new team.
For an example of the kind of thing I would consider to be closer to the scope of this, uh, exercise... I think the elements of the team that I gave the most focus in my original post were Sableye as a crippler and the pivoting synergy between Reuniclus and Incineroar, right? Is there maybe a better team that works better to support (or to be supported by) the dynamic between those Pokémon?
That's not to say that anyone replying has to keep all three of those and can only replace the other three. You're probably right that Sableye is more suited to a stall team, while pivoting Reuniclus and Incineroar are more ideal for balance, so maybe it would be more effective to drop Sableye in favor of a partner that lets Reuniclus and Incineroar play their part more effectively. Or maybe Incineroar should be replaced by a Pokémon that pairs better with Reuniclus as another pivot, but Sableye could support the new pair the way it already does as a solid way to beat most physical attackers and setup sweepers. Honestly, as long as two of those three stay more or less true to their current roles - even if it means replacing four team members and not just three (does me saying this make any difference? because I totally would allow that) - I would be open to more radical changes elsewhere in the team to support them, since you are right that this is sort of a hodgepodge of conflicting playing styles and certain Pokémon are just subpar. I feel like even that would be less like a totally different team, even if there are fewer Pokémon shared between them in name only.

To clarify, I have no doubt that this is the best team anyone is going to get if their goal is "while constrained to using any three of these six species, make the most capable team you can." Your post is coming from a place of one hundred percent good intentions and has some extremely sound advice. Even so, I feel like it's sort of reaching to call this an improved version and not just a completely different team, even if you did stay within the explicit limitations of the rules.

That said!!! I think you did have some really solid advice regardless, so if it's okay, I'm interested in asking some followup questions about your picks so I can have a better understanding your thought process. Even if I don't run with all of this, there's definitely a lot for me to learn here!

First, about / Sableye:
- I was initially hesitant to use a specially biased set because I was worried about compromising its strong suit in handling physical attackers, but I'll definitely try that out! I definitely think it'd be better at its job if it could switch into special moves more easily, but I didn't know how much I could afford to move out of Defense; if you've used this before and it doesn't seem to have issues in that area, I think this might be a big improvement, so thanks!
- This might be a really, really stupid question, but since you mentioned how important it is to be able to shut down hazard setters as early as possible... does this team really need to worry that much about early-game hazards? In your proposed team (not my original), Moltres and Mandibuzz both have Heavy Duty Boots, Ferrothorn is immune to Toxic Spikes and resistant to Stealth Rock, Reuniclus has Magic Guard and doesn't care about hazards at all (but might even actively want to be poisoned, like you mentioned), Clefable has Heal Bell if anyone is poisoned by mistake, and all six members can restore their HP, sometimes in multiple different ways. Moltres also has Defog if any hazards do come up early on. It seems like I would be less worried about hazards immediately - early in the game, when my Pokémon are healthy and can support each other - and more worried later - when maybe Clefable is down and can't act as a cleric, some healing items might be knocked off (Sableye is also good at preventing that, by the way!) or if Moltres has been defeated. In that case, would it be okay to put off Mega Evolving a bit like I have been? I feel like Prankster (especially with both Will-o-Wisp and Recover) is too good an Ability to waste by trading it off so soon, since hazards seem less immediately dangerous than the Pokémon I might have a chance to cripple with Prankster if I hold off.
- I'm a little curious about the reasoning behind Protect. If the concern is the drop in Speed, doesn't that not really make a difference, since I'm still going to be slower the next turn anyway? I've always understood Protect to be a way to stall for a turn of Speed Boost, or - in the Gen VI era - to cover for the delayed speed changes from Mega Evolution. What does it accomplish in a case like this, where I'm getting slower instead? (It looks like the strategy dex recommends it not to cover for the Speed drop but to make sure I get to Mega Evolve even if I want to switch out - that does make more sense, but I guess as a follow-up to the last bullet, if I'm hesitant to Mega Evolve right away anyway, would it be acceptable to drop it and retain a move from the original set, like Foul Play to make it less passive or Encore to make it a better check for setup sweepers? Like you said, both Mega Blastoise and Mega Metagross are super threatening in NatDex, but - while this might be colored by the fact that I've been facing my fellow low-ladder players and not experienced ones like you, so let me know if this is completely unrealistic in higher-level play - I've actually found Sableye to be extremely reliable at beating both of them with the set it currently has!)

Reuniclus:
- While I've talked about why I think this is a strange departure from the reason I was using Reuniclus, this does look like a fantastic set in its own right!! I've seen this and sets like it used before (both on Reuniclus and on other Pokémon like Mega Latias - I believe I've also fought an Alcremie with a moveset like this, but adding STAB and Magic Guard to that is just the icing on the cake saying that in a comparison to Alcremie feels like a pun but I swear it wasn't on purpose), and they honestly do look really fun to use and really hard to handle once certain threats are out of the way.
- A small note on this: Foul Play isn't actually affected by the target's burn, only the user's (which is why I've been able to get so much mileage out of it on Sableye in the past). I think the effect of a burn is to half physical damage rather than the Attack stat, so it affects Body Press instead of Foul Play! Even so, that's not really a point against the set - I think it's way easier to be intentionally poisoned than it is to be intentionally burned anyway, so knowing that I can take just as much advantage of either one will make it easier to set up.

Moltres
- I'm actually really curious about this set! I do like the idea of using Substitute Moltres as a PP staller - I had heard really good things about using it that way in Generation III in particular, and I have made use of Pressure and Roost to drain PP on important moves in many of my battles with this team. I've also used more directly similar strategies in the past with Poison Heal Gliscor; I'm definitely a fan of this kind of tactic! That said, I had sort of dismissed Moltres as being unlikely to pull it off in Gen VIII - do you have any insight on how to pull it off reliably? I can see it being harder to manage when you can't use any sort of passive healing like Leftovers, since Moltres is stuck with Heavy Duty Boots; you can reliably stall out anything with only 8 PP, but past that point, you need an opportunity to use Roost without the protection of a Substitute, which sounds a bit dangerous since many moves with 16 PP can still be pretty hard-hitting.
- Out of curiosity, what made you choose that for its speed tier, and are there any other benchmarks that are worth considering? It looks like the examples you gave all have ways to prevent or punish healing with Roost (Chandelure and Hoopa can both use boosting moves until they do more than you can heal with Roost if they don't already, and Heatran can use Toxic to cut your stalling short). I'm not sure how often they run them, but Chandelure and Hoopa also have access to Infiltrator and Hyperspace Fury to bypass Substitute anyway - I think they would be a pretty tough matchup for Moltres no matter what. (Some Chandelure also run Choice Scarf Trick sets, which would cripple Moltres right away even before it uses Substitute.) In general, though, I can definitely see this being useful if you ever need to stall out an 8 PP move against slower opponents! I think it just comes down to having the right speed tier and knowing what safe targets would be. (Man, if only Moltres could reach 404 HP so it could shut down Chansey outright...)

Mimikyu and Roserade
- Yyyeah, I think you're right that these aren't exactly the teams for Mimikyu (neither mine nor yours). That's fair!
- You're also right that Roserade is outclassed by some other options, and this is another one I'm totally willing to drop.

And now for the proposed additions!! Ferrothorn, Clefable and Mandibuzz:
- Okay, so the thing about all of these is that... despite what I said about not really feeling like a natural direction for this team to take, these are all Pokémon that do look really fun to use - if they wouldn't be wholly out of place and it wouldn't conflict with the other members I'm hoping to use, I would still be enthusiastic about adopting some of them onto the team! Clefable in particular is a Pokémon that I know has a place outside of stall teams - Unaware looks like a fantastic Ability to have on the team, and I know how good Clefable is in general! Compressing Heal Bell, Wish and Unaware into one slot is definitely something that will benefit this team; even if I don't go through with all three of the replacements you proposed, I'm pretty sure I will use Clefable instead of Roserade unless you advise against it. Thank you for the advice and the set!!
- It's funny that you mention Aegislash, because that's another Pokémon I've always just used Sableye to handle - it's never really given me any trouble, so I hadn't thought of it as a threat. That said, Mandibuzz is another Pokémon that I like a lot and would really enjoy using - if Sableye doesn't end up with a set that still includes Foul Play, or just if I end up needing a backup plan, I would definitely be open to using Mandibuzz as well!

This is only a half-formed thought, but talking about these other stall staples made me think of this... do you think Toxapex would mesh well with this team, or does it not add enough/would it be redundant to Clefable?
- I haven't tried it before, but I think it would be a good way to hinder Mega Blastoise (having Haze as a backup plan if I can't manage to Encore on Shell Smash or if Sableye just doesn't have Encore any more, plus resisting Water and Fighting; I'm not sure if its special bulk is enough to stop the Dark neutrality from being a problem, though).
- On paper (Ihaven'truncalcsyetthoughI'mjustspitballing), it should be able to cover Greninja, Volcarona and Chansey all at once, considering its useful resistances and its access to Haze, Toxic and recovery - it seems like a pretty good way to cover my original team's weaknesses. (And maybe Melmetal as long as it's banded into Double Iron Bash? But Earthquake and Thunder Punch are both super dangerous, so that's a big risk.) It also comes with Regenerator and another easy way to apply burns to the other team. How would you say it compares to the other walls you've mentioned? (Of course, it doesn't have any use as a cleric, so it couldn't replace Clefable, but then I guess Clefable is already meant as a check for Mega Blastoise anyway - would having them both be redundant, then?)

Anyway!!! I'm sorry that I've gone on for so long about this. Thank you both so much for your help! If you have a chance to respond to some of this, I would be super grateful, but I also understand that I've said and asked a ton, haha.

 

[theotherguytm]

Never be sorry for saying something that is both not rude and is easy to understand! I think I spaced out for a second and then just thought that this was Doubles OU. Speed, I think, is a lot more important in Doubles, and it's where I actually have any experience...so I probably wanted to be replying to a Doubles Team. Not how that works, of course!

My apologies to Hematite for the mishap, but glad it was addressed!

That's ok, thanks for being understanding. In general, singles speed control usually means a Choice Scarf user rather than the things you stated. Trick Room has to have the entire team built around it, it's not exactly something you can just throw onto a singles team. And for the stall team I suggested, speed just usually is a dump stat.

*snip*

Ok, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll try and answer as many of your questions as I can (but wow, there's a lot of them).

Compress Post

Mega Sableye is generally known as "the face of stall". A non-stall team with Mega Sableye doesn't really mesh, because Mega Sableye drains a lot of precious momentum by just sitting there, and doesn't really have a good way to regain momentum either. So it's usually left to stall teams where losing momentum isn't viewed as an issue. So when I saw Mega Sableye, my first instinct was to switch into a different Mega, but I knew you wanted to build around it, so I was torn on that. But like I said:

Moltres was what made me think "stall" when looking at this team, rather than just "random balance with Mega Sab".

That's why I changed it over to stall. Basically, pushing it in any other direction would have taken a lot more changes to be effective, and I would rather recommend a team that works well than a team which is "truer" to the original but has a lot of holes.

The second explanation follows from the first: Mega Sableye is a momentum drain. What does this actually mean? So basically, a player has "momentum" if his opponent has to continuously respond to his threats, rather than furthering his own plans. Mega Sableye is a rather passive Pokemon, so powerful wallbreakers like Kartana can generally switch into it without fear of being KOed to threaten it out. This forces you to respond to your opponent's threat, giving him momentum to make further plays (eg: double switching into a different Pokemon, or using Defog), while making it difficult for you to gain momentum. Mega Sab being as passive as it means it rarely threatens the opposition However, a stall team is built around the idea of responding to threats and shutting them down, so giving momentum to the opponent doesn't matter as much, and gaining momentum is not a priority. Which means Mega Sab fits very nicely.

As for your other Mega Sab questions, yes you can use regular Sab to check certain things early on, but there is a reason Mega Sab is referred to as "the face of stall". Stall teams live and die by hazards. Even those with Heavy Duty Boots. In the scenario I discussed above, I said a stall team is happy to lose momentum. This implies constantly switching to respond to your opponent's threats. But if you are losing the hazard war, your Pokemon will get worn down faster than your opponent's. This means burning precious Recovers, Roosts and Wishes healing off hazard damage. This becomes extra-important in the stall mirror, where Recover PP can and will decide games. There are also some Pokemon that can only be checked by a healthy Pokemon, so getting that Pokemon worn down by hazards is usually fatal. Equally, being able to wear your opponent down with hazards helps deal with powerful breakers like Galaran Darmantaun before they tear your team apart. You're right in that hazards are a lategame issue rather than an earlygame issue, but the MegaSab/Moltres core aims to stop hazards going up at all.

As for Protect, imagine an opponent who does 55% to regular Sableye, and 45% to Mega Sableye with an 8PP move. Regular Sableye can abuse Prankster Recover to stall it out. Mega Sableye just laughs at it. But... If you take a hit as regular Sableye, you cannot then Mega Evolve, unless you have Protect. And the opponent might just be willing to sacrifice that 8PP move to burn your Recovers, so Mega Evolving to get out of that situation and block any status it might throw at you is a priority. This might seem overly convoluted but...
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 88-105 (29 - 34.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
This is one of Mega Sab's key matchups. The ability to take on bulky Heatran, which can pack Taunt to break stall, cannot be underestimated. Protect allows you to Mega Evolve safely and prevent it landing a Toxic or setting up Stealth Rock. Protect is also a generally useful move for dealing with, say, Specs Tapu Lele. Mega Sab can wall any of Lele's moves bar Moonblast, so being able to see what it is locking into eases prediction around dangerous Choice-locked mons. Of course you can run utility in this slot, but it's a lot more risky in general.

As for Moltres, yes you can run Leftovers on it, but you would have to run Defog on Mandibuzz as well. It was actually the set Moltres used in OU last gen, and I just switched it over to Boots. The main idea behind the Leftovers set was to switch into Steath Rock setters Mega Sab struggles with while hazards are clear and prevent them going up. A secondary remover was required in case Rocks did get up to prevent Moltres losing half its health to remove them, but it worked. Basically, the Boots aims to make it a lot less risky and free up a slot on Mandibuzz, but it can work with Leftovers. The old speed tier was chosen to outrun Mold Breaker Excadrill, which is IMO a lot less relevant now due to the Rapid Spin buff, and how rarely Drill runs Rock coverage any more. Basically I just wanted to find a reasonable point which left Moltres with enough bulk to be usable. But if you want alternate benchmarks:

Speed

240+ Jolly Drill
228+ Neutral base 100s like Zard Y, Mega Medicham and Manaphy
200+ Adamant Mimikyu
176+ Hoopa-U and Mamoswine (This is also a "jump point" where your Nature gives you an extra point of Speed for free, hence why I chose it)
172+ Neutral Mega Garchomp
164+ Neutral Lando-T
156+ Everything speed creeping Heatran
152+ Timid Heatran (Do not run less than this)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 150-177 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 186-220 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. -1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 150-177 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
Aegi unfortunately can beat almost anything with the correct set. Mega Sab usually ends up overwhelmed by Choiced sets and SubToxic sets can just spam Shadow Ball and wait for a SpDef drop. It does check Swords Dance mostly. SpDef Mandibuzz is the best check for most of its sets, and that's why I recommended it. If you do go with Lefties on Moltres, slot Defog over Knock or Toxic.

And Pex was a mon I considered while building over Mandibuzz. It can use Toxic Spikes, which works incredibly well with Reuniclus, allowing Reuniclus to simply stall out whatever it doesn't manage to outgun. However, it's not as reliable an Aegi check. It does fine against SubToxic, but
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
That happens. Do experiment with Pex though, it's a great partner for Reuniclus. I advise the following set.
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes
The trick to using Pex is to use as few Recovers as possible. Obviously keep it healthy if there's something it has to check, but try and rely on Rengerator+Black Sludge as much as possible. However, even with this spread it gets 2HKOed by Mega Toise's Dark Pulse, so it shouldn't be your primary check.

Hope all of this was helpful to you!

 

[Hematite]

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to all of that!! You're right - I asked a ton, holy cow. I appreciate how detailed you were in responding anyway!!

On second thought, I should probably have compressed the last post, too

Ohhh, I see what you mean about Sableye! Actually, this is why I was running it with Foul Play in the first place - like I mentioned, a lot of people expect it to be that passive and try to use it to grab momentum, but this set is able to shut down a ton of things you wouldn't expect. Consider the example you gave of Kartana, but facing the Sableye in my OP rather than the standard Mega set:

252 Atk burned Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 81-96 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk burned Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 63-75 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk burned Kartana Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 39-47 (12.8 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO
(Obviously, Sacred Sword doesn't work!)
If it's already at +1 from Beast Boost, Leaf Blade still doesn't 2HKO:
+1 252 Atk burned Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 123-144 (40.5 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Meanwhile, Foul Play oneshots a +1 Kartana with burn damage:
+1 252 Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 237-280 (91.5 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after burn damage
(This is accounting for the burn on the turn of Foul Play, but it would also have taken damage on the turn of Will-o-Wisp, so it's not a 50/50!)

If it tries to Swords Dance at a time that leaves an opening for me (which is actually super often - I might Foul Play on the turn it uses it, or I can still usually Foul Play safely on the next turn if I Will-o-Wisp on the turn it uses it or if it's already burned and I Recover on the turn it uses it... so basically no matter what I do), I can just oneshot:
+2 252 Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 315-372 (121.6 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And if it happens to Swords Dance at a bad time and I can't safely react with a Foul Play (it's not burned, I'm not healed, Sableye wasn't already in and it Swords Danced on a switch, et cetera), I still have Prankster Encore to force it out even then.
Note that all of this is without needing to Mega Evolve and without the benefit of an item, which is why I'm so used to relying on Prankster early on and Magic Bounce and the defensive buffs later!
Sableye can be proactive if it wants to be - it's pretty much a blanket check to every non-Dark-type physical attacker without Mega Evolving, and usually it finishes the job before the other player even realizes it can touch them. And once all of the usual targets are already down, it still has the Mega Stone and can focus on shutting down stall instead (and also sometimes Dark-type physical attackers - I'm pretty sure this set has handled Bisharp and Weavile before).
Of course, this set is no good with special attackers, but I have five other Pokémon for that, haha.

On Protect, I'm still not sure if I totally understand - in the Heatran matchup, how is Mega Evolving into Protect better than Mega Evolving into any other move? The Speed disadvantage is the same on the turn of Protect as on the next turn, and I can't have Leftovers or any other passive recovery, so the damage I would take is also the same with or without stalling a turn (actually higher in the example of Magma Storm). Meanwhile, status moves don't work even if I don't Protect - in fact, while I think Stealth Rock gets Magic Bounced even through Protect, I think Mega Sableye would rather be unprotected on anything other than Heatran trying to use Toxic, because then I have an opportunity to poison them back (which I lose if I reveal the Mega by blocking their move). Isn't stalling one extra turn, doing nothing with it and giving the opponent free knowledge (revealing Magic Bounce before they choose their next attack rather than after it) kind of what makes Mega Sableye a momentum drain in the first place?
I see what you mean about Choiced attackers, though!! Protect sounds like a useful scouting move for those.

Oh, man, thank you so much for laying out all of those Speed tiers!! That's an extremely helpful reference! I think I'll go with 164+ for the moment, since I know that's a major Stealth Rock setter, and being able to stall it out and having free opportunities to Defog sounds excellent!
And huh, that's actually pretty surprising! When I brought up Leftovers, it was less that I expected it to be a serious option and more that I thought HDB conflicting with it would hold it back too much - but people were still using this set last Gen, when HDB didn't exist? That's honestly really impressive to hear - I think I might've been underestimating this set as a whole when I responded to you last!
I'll try to experiment a little with HDB (and a second Defogger) vs Leftovers and see which one ends up more rewarding!

Actually, since you mentioned that Sableye is most vulnerable to special variants of Aegislash (and actually, yeah, these have soundly defeated it a few times), but Toxapex is most vulnerable to physical ones, how feasible would it be to rely on the combination of the two? Since next to nothing can check all of Aegislash's sets at once, would having two Pokémon that can do it collectively be a good choice (especially when they're both fulfilling many other roles and it's not like devoting two team slots to one Pokémon)? That said, Mandibuzz also sounds like an excellent choice, so I'm happy just going with that instead!

That Toxapex set looks fantastic!!! I'm totally going to try it!! Thanks for the advice!! (And thank you for the warning about Dark Pulse - that's definitely important to know, haha.)

Okay, sorry for how much of your time I've eaten up!! I don't have nearly so many questions this time (just some stuff on Sableye and Toxapex - otherwise, I'm mostly just making comments and reactions, haha). Thank you so much again for sticking with this and giving all of that advice!!

 

[theotherguytm]

*snip*

Ok! Just a couple more questions to answer then.

Hail the Great Compressor

Ok, so yes Sableye can cripple Kartana if it is not yet Mega Evolved. But really, Mega Sab's role on stall is not to be the greatest wall ever. For instance, Kartana can be comfortably handled by Moltres, who takes any hit from it bar a +2 Z-move. Sableye will be crippled by Kartana if it takes a crit off Leaf Blade as well (25% chance) and on Stall, trading mons is not how you win games. Mega Sab's job is very simple: switch into a passive opponent and shut them down with Magic Bounce. Handling breakers is what the rest of the team is for. Mega Sab needs to be Mega Evolved so it can switch in on these passive mons with Magic Bounce already up. In that way, you simply prevent hazards ever going up. And those passive mons are what Knock Off is for, especially in longer games. Knocking Off Leftovers and other items can cripple the opposing mon just as much as statusing them, especially in the case of mons like Ferrothorn and Tapu Fini who have no reliable recovery. Foul Play is possible and might work a few times (you notice it is on Mandibuzz because Buzz is meant to be checking things Foul Play does heavy damage to). But Knock Off just is a far more versatile move that cripples the things Mega Sab is supposed to be fighting, and more than a few of its switch-ins.

Basically, Mega Evolving into Protect allows you to stay in an extra turn to prevent Stealth Rock going up from uninvested Heatran (though invested Heatran should be dealt with by Moltres) and similar mons. Basically, the main purpose of it is to let you Mega Evolve against things you otherwise couldn't to switch in against other things and shut them down immediately later, instead of Rocks going up the turn you switch in regular Sab or, even worse, taking a Toxic you could have bounced back by Mega Evolving that cripples you. Sure you have Heal Bell, but every PP counts on stall.

TBH, Adamant Lando-T is rare, Jolly is much more common and that's a benchmark beyond Moltres' practical reach. Just thought I'd warn you.

It's not necessarily the combination of physical vs special, the issue with Aegi is nothing checks all of its sets. Even Mandibuzz can lose to SubToxic (though having a cleric helps with this). Mega Sab in general struggles to do anything against Aegi except spam Recover, whatever set Aegi is running. Toxapex handles SubToxic by being immune to Toxic, but gets overwhelmed by Choiced or Swords Dance sets, and again just ends up burning Recovers to try and stay alive. Overall, Mandibuzz gives the best odds of being able to beat Aegi, especially if you can catch it in Blade Form with Foul Play (though King's Shield mindgames hurt this on some Swords Dance sets).