CAP 27 - Part 8 Moveset Discussion

[LucarioOfLegends]

Further addendum:

Based on the play I have witnessed early on the server, I think there is an option that is much more beneficial back on the table. With that in mind, I would like to unban Spikes.

Keep in mind that the caveats listed above are still in effect. Please list one more replays from the the test server before posting a set with Spikes on it, I think video evidence will really help.

 

[Reviloja753]

Moveset Submission

Name: Spike Stacker
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Flare Blitz
Move 3: Will-o-Wisp
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Fire Lash helps lay the pressure on foes with its Defense drops and pressure bulkier Pokemon like Clefable.
• Flare Blitz is stronger but riskier than Fire Lash. Helps you exert more immediate pressure on the opponent. Can be run over or with Fire Lash, depending on how confident you feel in dealing with Fire-type resistances.
• Dragon Claw is used to hit anything Fire Lash doesn't do well on, like opposing Fire and Dragon-types.
• Will-o-Wisp can help against physical attackers such as Kommo-o as shown in my replay, or other Pokemon like Terrakion.
• Spikes is great for taking advantage of CAP27's great speed tier and scary STAB combo to rack up damage to help teammates throughout the battle.
• EVs and item are your standard affair. Self-explanatory.

There honestly isn't too much to say about this set. Spikes is a very good move for CAP27 and this set shows that. Fire Lash is surprisingly not as strong as people make it out to be, and with something like my set, imo it doesn't force us to focus solely on offense, especially when switches are predicted properly. The replay that utilizes this set can be found here. Thanks Dogfish44!!

 

[quziel]

Having played a few games on the test server I've got a few thoughts.

Firstly Fire Lash feels far from overwhelming, in fact, it doesn't even feel all that good, especially when run by its lonesome. Sure its great for pushing Flare Blitz up to nuclear levels, and sure its super abusive if your opponent only has one mon that can take on 27. But like, that's true of every offensive mon; if all they have to check you is one sorta shaky check (and ye, I consider Tomo a semi-shaky check), then you're gonna just barrel through you. Where Fire Lash really fails is when they have more than one answer, where they can actually just switch out after putting you at half; Toxapex also means that Lash 27 is basically worthless as it legit does not care about it. Fire Lash also shows its weakness in its inability to get reliable KOs vs Steel types, hitting Ferrothorn for 95% max, and failing to really scare out Equilibra. Thus, its something you have to pair with Blitz, and even there it didn't feel super overpowering. I'd post replays but that's a huge hassle.

Spikes on the other hand feels like a missing piece, especially with respect to the Toxapex matchup, because without it, you are essentially unable to make progress if there's a Pex on the enemy field. This is sorta similar to SM era Ash Greninja, where Pex's mere existence nullifies you as a mon, but thanks to Spikes you can actually do stuff, make progress, and contribute to the battle.

Will-o-Wisp also feels legit amazing on this mon because of how your answers are structured. Going back to Pex, it essentially nullifies Black Sludge and makes it way, way easier to wear down, it helps to put Tomohawk into range of your attacks way more quickly, and it lets you cripple certain checks such as Hippowdon. More than anythign else this is the move I have the most trouble dropping because well, it functionally does the same thing as Knock Off, aka cancelling Leftovers, while also letting you cripple stuff trying to set up on you, heavily reducing the power of a ton of threats (you can totally just stay in and Wisp Hippo and then switch out the turn after), and really helps you exert offensive pressure because of how big of an impact it has.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I just want to say a big thanks to Jho and Lucario for opening up some of the previously banned moves for further testing. I think this is a great way to get further discussion going, as well as to actually analyse games and how we want CAP 27 to actually play out.

I was testing my previously submitted Wish set with Roland (ie. not running Protect but instead Aromatherapy) and it feels like a very usable and helpful set for Balance Teams. I believe CAP 27 with Wish and Aromatherapy is a very unique and powerful cleric, that by sheer virtue of its offensive presence affords it the room to click these moves and help the team, while at the same time having some good offensive moves. These two replays show off what Wish and Aromatherapy being on the same set can do for team members, as well as the sheer number of switches it causes, and the fact that it still wants to click Fire Lash (in particular) and doesn't just become purely passive. In these two games, I genuinely didn't feel like I wanted Protect whatsoever. One thing that is important to note however that I understand, and can be used as an argument against Wish, is that it will mainly supports Balance teams. I personally don't think that this set, or even a set that does run Protect, will become CAP 27's staple set, but rather one option. That being said if these aren't the kind of teams we want CAP 27 supporting I can understand the apprehension. It could also be pretty obnoxious with Wishport Clefable, but I think that is more of an indictment on Clefable than CAP 27.

Replay 1 and Replay 2

 

[Deck Knight]

With the removal of the restriction on Rapid Spin and the Replay requirement, now is the time to specifically post this set. While it is pending the result of the Fire Lash poll, the Replays do demonstrate the efficacy of Rapid Spin.

Moveset Submission

Name: Support Spinner
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Fire Lash
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz for powerful, consistent damage output.
• Dragon Claw is used when you can score a neutral hit or threaten another Dragon. This is especially helpful on threats that would resist Flare Blitz and Fire Lash.
• Rapid Spin removes hazards and provides a +1 Speed boost, making it possible to outrun Zeraora and Scarved Dragons. Both functions are critical in providing effective support and winning matchups. Regenerator combined with Heavy-Duty Boots allows multiple opportunities to attempt hazard removal.
• Fire Lash provides a STAB option that provides incredible pressure on opposing defensive Pokemon, and limits offensive counterplay. The range of utility this provides makes it much easier to find room to use Rapid Spin.

Replays:
Game 1: https://github.com/DeckKnight/27TestReplays/blob/master/Gen8CAP-2020-05-09-mxmts-deckknight Test1.html

Game 2: https://github.com/DeckKnight/27TestReplays/blob/master/Gen8CAP-2020-05-09-deckknight-mxmts Test2.html

Game 3: https://github.com/DeckKnight/27TestReplays/blob/master/Gen8CAP-2020-05-09-deckknight-aetherl Test3.html

Game 4: https://github.com/DeckKnight/27TestReplays/blob/master/Gen8CAP-2020-05-09-2spoopy4u-deckknight Test4.html

Since the raw text files aren't that helpful unless you're down for a read, a few key moments will be below.

Game 1 Moments

|switch|p1a: Clefable|Clefable, M|100\/100
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p1a: Clefable
|-damage|p1a: Clefable|73\/100
|-unboost|p1a: Clefable|def|1
|
|-heal|p1a: Clefable|79\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|19


|
|move|p1a: Clefable|Protect|p1a: Clefable
|-singleturn|p1a: Clefable|Protect
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: Clefable
|-activate|p1a: Clefable|move: Protect
|
|-heal|p1a: Clefable|85\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|20


|
|switch|p1a: Tomohawk|Tomohawk, M|73\/100
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|61\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|-ability|p1a: Tomohawk|Intimidate|boost
|-unboost|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|atk|1
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|38\/100
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|326\/357|[from] Recoil
|
|-heal|p1a: Tomohawk|44\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|21

First Contact against a Wishport Clefable that was trying to recharge opposing team, Clef chooses to Protect to get Leftovers recovery after Lash and switches to Intimidate Hawk. Hawk comes in on a Fire Lash and sets up rocks, and eats a Flare Blitz at basically normal power, leaving it at 38%. I opt to switch to Mew to set up my own Rocks while Hawk Roosts. Mx switches in a Corviknight (which I previously put to sleep with Venusaur) to ride out sleep turns. I try to take it out with Mew Flamethrower but it doesn't really do enough, so I switch into CAP 27 again while it wakes up and Roosts.

|switch|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|cap27, F|357\/357
|-curestatus|p1a: Corviknight|slp|[msg]
|move|p1a: Corviknight|Roost|p1a: Corviknight
|-heal|p1a: Corviknight|100\/100
|-singleturn|p1a: Corviknight|move: Roost
|
|upkeep
|turn|25


|
|switch|p1a: Tomohawk|Tomohawk, M|99\/100
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|88\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|-ability|p1a: Tomohawk|Intimidate|boost
|-unboost|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|atk|1
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p1a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|67\/100
|-unboost|p1a: Tomohawk|def|1
|
|-heal|p1a: Tomohawk|73\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|26


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p1a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|46\/100
|-unboost|p1a: Tomohawk|def|1
|move|p1a: Tomohawk|Stealth Rock|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-sidestart|p2: Deck Knight|move: Stealth Rock
|
|-heal|p1a: Tomohawk|52\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|27


|
|switch|p1a: Clefable|Clefable, M|85\/100
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: Clefable
|-damage|p1a: Clefable|41\/100
|-status|p1a: Clefable|brn
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|299\/357|[from] Recoil
|
|-heal|p1a: Clefable|47\/100 brn|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|28

Second encounter with Hawk and Fable. Hawk knows it has to switch out after the second Lash, so Fable ends up eating the Flare Blitz and I get a meaningless burn (which is actually counterproductive since Venu can't sleep it now, but Fable is pretty weakened.

|switch|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|cap27, F|357\/357
|turn|32


|
|move|p1a: Zeraora|Knock Off|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|180\/357
|-enditem|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Heavy-Duty Boots|[from] move: Knock Off|[of] p1a: Zeraora
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|59\/100|[from] item: Life Orb
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Rapid Spin|p1a: Zeraora
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|39\/100
|-boost|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|spe|1
|-sideend|p2: Deck Knight|Stealth Rock|[from] move: Rapid Spin|[of] p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|
|upkeep
|turn|33


|j| pip7


|
|switch|p1a: Tomohawk|Tomohawk, M|52\/100
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|39\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|-ability|p1a: Tomohawk|Intimidate|boost
|-unboost|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|atk|1
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p1a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|18\/100
|-unboost|p1a: Tomohawk|def|1
|
|-heal|p1a: Tomohawk|24\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|34


|
|switch|p1a: Clefable|Clefable, M|53\/100 brn
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p1a: Clefable
|-damage|p1a: Clefable|26\/100 brn
|-unboost|p1a: Clefable|def|1
|
|-heal|p1a: Clefable|32\/100 brn|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|35


|
|move|p1a: Clefable|Protect|p1a: Clefable
|-singleturn|p1a: Clefable|Protect
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: Clefable
|-activate|p1a: Clefable|move: Protect
|
|-heal|p1a: Clefable|38\/100 brn|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|36


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: Clefable
|-damage|p1a: Clefable|0 fnt
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|131\/357|[from] Recoil
|faint|p1a: Clefable
|
|upkeep


|
|switch|p1a: Tomohawk|Tomohawk, M|24\/100
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|11\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|-ability|p1a: Tomohawk|Intimidate|boost
|-unboost|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|atk|1
|turn|37


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p1a: Tomohawk|0 fnt
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|116\/357|[from] Recoil
|faint|p1a: Tomohawk
|
|upkeep


|
|switch|p1a: Zeraora|Zeraora|39\/100
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|27\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|turn|38


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p1a: Zeraora
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|4\/100
|-unboost|p1a: Zeraora|def|1
|move|p1a: Zeraora|Knock Off|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|6\/357
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|0 fnt|[from] item: Life Orb
|faint|p1a: Zeraora
|
|upkeep


|c|☆mxmts|gg


|
|switch|p1a: Corviknight|Corviknight, M|100\/100
|-damage|p1a: Corviknight|88\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|-ability|p1a: Corviknight|Pressure
|turn|39


|c|☆Deck Knight|gg


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: Corviknight
|-supereffective|p1a: Corviknight
|-damage|p1a: Corviknight|46\/100
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|0 fnt|[from] Recoil
|faint|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|move|p1a: Corviknight|Iron Head|p2: Qi-Gon Djinn|[notarget]
|-fail|p1a: Corviknight
|
|-heal|p1a: Corviknight|52\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep

The clean-up act. I get 27 back in after Zeraora nets a KO on Pyroak, and then Rapid Spin as it Knocks Off HDB. 27 is now faster than Zeraora for the duration it is in, and SR is finally off my field. Even with Tomohawk still relatively healthy and using Intimidate to progressively weaken CAP 27, Fire Lash keeps apace with the switchins. None of them can take Flare Blitz damage at this point. I try to finish Zeraora off with Fire Lash but it's too weak, and Zeraora goes down to Life Orb instead of damage. I throw a Flare Blitz at Corviknight knowing 27 has done it's job and allowing me a free switchin and as much damage as possible going out. My Dracovish finishes off the match.

Game 2 Moments

|
|switch|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|cap27, F|357\/357
|switch|p2a: Clefable|Clefable, F|94\/100 tox
|
|-heal|p2a: Clefable|99\/100 tox|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|28


|
|switch|p2a: Tomohawk|Tomohawk, F|100\/100
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|88\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|-ability|p2a: Tomohawk|Intimidate|boost
|-unboost|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|atk|1
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|67\/100
|-unboost|p2a: Tomohawk|def|1
|
|-heal|p2a: Tomohawk|73\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|29


|
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p2a: Tomohawk
|-crit|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|8\/100
|-unboost|p2a: Tomohawk|def|1
|move|p2a: Tomohawk|Rapid Spin|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|334\/357
|-boost|p2a: Tomohawk|spe|1
|-sideend|p2: mxmts|Stealth Rock|[from] move: Rapid Spin|[of] p2a: Tomohawk
|
|-heal|p2a: Tomohawk|14\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|30


|
|switch|p2a: Hydreigon|Hydreigon, F|75\/100
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Rapid Spin|p2a: Hydreigon
|-damage|p2a: Hydreigon|63\/100
|-boost|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|spe|1
|-sideend|p1: Deck Knight|Stealth Rock|[from] move: Rapid Spin|[of] p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|
|upkeep
|turn|31


|
|switch|p2a: Clefable|Clefable, F|99\/100 tox
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Dragon Claw|p2a: Clefable
|-immune|p2a: Clefable
|
|-heal|p2a: Clefable|100\/100 tox|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|32


|
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p2a: Clefable
|-damage|p2a: Clefable|75\/100 tox
|-unboost|p2a: Clefable|def|1
|move|p2a: Clefable|Wish|p2a: Clefable
|
|-heal|p2a: Clefable|81\/100 tox|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|33


|
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p2a: Clefable
|-crit|p2a: Clefable
|-damage|p2a: Clefable|0 fnt
|faint|p2a: Clefable
|
|upkeep


|c|☆Deck Knight|oof

Although this ends in a hax crit, it also provides a good example of why Fire Lash shouldn't be underestimated, and the speed boost of Rapid Spin. I know Mx's Hydreigon is Scarved in this match (yes, Scarf Dreigon with Thunder Wave. Sinister!). Tomohawk banked too much on Intimidate allowing it to both set Rocks and Spin away mine, so by the time it did that, even Rapid Spin would have finished it off. Instead a weakened Dreigon switches in and immediately has to switch out because -1 Dragon Claw will KO it at 63%. Clefable comes back in, I use Fire Lash because I know it will Wish, and then I get a lucky crit. If I didn't crit, it would have been severely weakened and have limited opportunities to use another Wishport. Fire Lash's pressure was immense and punished Tomohawk staying in for the second support move severely.

Game 3 Moments

Aetherl brought a nasty sun team that mostly consisted of me switching around to try and avoid getting nuked by Growth Venu while Pyroak MVPd my defense. Aetherl didn't want to bring Jumbao or Venu in on Pyroak, and it was my go-to switchin for Aetherl's CAP 27.

|
|switch|p1a: Jungle Fever|Pyroak, F|442\/442
|-damage|p1a: Jungle Fever|332\/442|[from] Stealth Rock
|move|p2a: cap27|Fire Lash|p1a: Jungle Fever
|-damage|p1a: Jungle Fever|235\/442
|
|-heal|p1a: Jungle Fever|262\/442|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|23


|
|move|p2a: cap27|Fire Lash|p1a: Jungle Fever
|-damage|p1a: Jungle Fever|166\/442
|move|p1a: Jungle Fever|Synthesis|p1a: Jungle Fever
|-heal|p1a: Jungle Fever|387\/442
|
|-heal|p1a: Jungle Fever|414\/442|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|24


|
|move|p2a: cap27|Fire Lash|p1a: Jungle Fever
|-damage|p1a: Jungle Fever|320\/442
|move|p1a: Jungle Fever|Earth Power|p2a: cap27
|-supereffective|p2a: cap27
|-damage|p2a: cap27|39\/100
|
|-heal|p1a: Jungle Fever|347\/442|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|25

This is why you have to run both Fire Lash and Flare Blitz. I don't know whether Aetherl's set lacked Blitz or not, but Fire Lash alone wasn't going to cut it against Pyroak (My Oak Spread is 244 HP/160+ Def/36 SpD, not Max/Max), and Earth Power 2HKO'd easily in return with 4 SpA investment. Pyroak really caused trouble for a lot of Aetherl's team.

|
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Rapid Spin|p2a: Mandibuzz
|-damage|p2a: Mandibuzz|54\/100
|-boost|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|spe|1
|-sideend|p1: Deck Knight|Stealth Rock|[from] move: Rapid Spin|[of] p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|move|p2a: Mandibuzz|Roost|p2a: Mandibuzz
|-heal|p2a: Mandibuzz|100\/100
|-singleturn|p2a: Mandibuzz|move: Roost
|
|upkeep
|turn|29


|
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p2a: Mandibuzz
|-damage|p2a: Mandibuzz|71\/100
|-unboost|p2a: Mandibuzz|def|1
|move|p2a: Mandibuzz|Foul Play|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|177\/357
|
|upkeep
|turn|30


|
|move|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p2a: Mandibuzz
|-damage|p2a: Mandibuzz|2\/100
|-status|p2a: Mandibuzz|brn
|-damage|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|81\/357|[from] Recoil
|move|p2a: Mandibuzz|Foul Play|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn|0 fnt
|faint|p1a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|
|-damage|p2a: Mandibuzz|0 fnt|[from] brn
|faint|p2a: Mandibuzz
|upkeep

Another example of why you run both Fire Lash and Flare Blitz. I used Mandibuzz as an opportunity to remove Rocks, since they really cut into Pyroak's durability and Pyroak was doing the hard carry this match. In response it Roosted back to full health. None of Aetherl's team particularly liked switching into anything after Fire Lash, or into Fire Lash itself. Even Darmanitan because it's so frail (and it was Scarf, which is why when I predicted Earthquake I sent in... well, read the log. I note here Rapid Spin also made 27 faster than Scarf Darm at this moment.) That said, while the burn finishing off Mandibuzz was lucky, otherwise Foul Play was going to cook my goose. I needed the big damage after lowering its defense.

Game 4 Moments

Another FableLibra Core. I think I want to...

|
|switch|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|cap27, M|357\/357
|move|p1a: Clefable|Wish|p1a: Clefable
|
|upkeep
|turn|40


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p1a: Clefable
|-damage|p1a: Clefable|57\/100 brn
|-unboost|p1a: Clefable|def|1
|move|p1a: Clefable|Teleport|p1a: Clefable


|
|switch|p1a: Equilibra|Equilibra|20\/100 brn|[from]move: Teleport
|-damage|p1a: Equilibra|17\/100 brn|[from] Stealth Rock
|
|-heal|p1a: Equilibra|65\/100 brn|[from] move: Wish|[wisher] Clefable
|-heal|p1a: Equilibra|72\/100 brn|[from] item: Leftovers
|-damage|p1a: Equilibra|65\/100 brn|[from] brn
|upkeep
|turn|41


|
|switch|p1a: cap27|cap27, F|100\/100
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: cap27
|-resisted|p1a: cap27
|-damage|p1a: cap27|83\/100
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|337\/357|[from] Recoil
|
|upkeep
|turn|42


|
|switch|p2a: Apex Redditor|Toxapex, M|304\/304
|-damage|p2a: Apex Redditor|266\/304|[from] Spikes
|move|p1a: cap27|Dragon Claw|p2a: Apex Redditor
|-damage|p2a: Apex Redditor|172\/304
|
|upkeep
|turn|43


|
|switch|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|cap27, M|357\/357
|move|p1a: cap27|Taunt|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-start|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|move: Taunt
|
|upkeep
|turn|44


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Dragon Claw|p1a: cap27
|-supereffective|p1a: cap27
|-damage|p1a: cap27|0 fnt
|faint|p1a: cap27

I switch in on a healthy Fable as it Wishes. I know it will Teleport out, but it might hard switch instead, so I choose to save my HP and Fire Lash for decent damage. I had weakened Equlibra previously with Venusaur and Pyroak, so even after Wish it only had 65%. Again, Flare Blitz was necessary to secure a KO here that Fire Lash couldn't, but Fire Lash was applying pressure on other hard switchins.
I also make the daring 50/50 move of trying to Dragon Claw on a speed tie. No guts, no glory. It pays off.

|
|switch|p1a: Zeraora|Zeraora|100\/100
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|88\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|move|p2a: Apex Redditor|Recover|p2a: Apex Redditor
|-heal|p2a: Apex Redditor|304\/304
|
|upkeep
|turn|47


|
|switch|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|cap27, M|357\/357
|move|p1a: Zeraora|Plasma Fists|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-resisted|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|261\/357
|-fieldactivate|move: Ion Deluge
|
|upkeep
|turn|48


|
|move|p1a: Zeraora|Plasma Fists|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-resisted|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|167\/357
|-fieldactivate|move: Ion Deluge
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Rapid Spin|p1a: Zeraora
|-heal|p1a: Zeraora|100\/100|[from] ability: Volt Absorb|[of] p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|
|upkeep
|turn|49

Here was a fun exchange I had to switch out of. Was expecting CC, got hit by a second Plasma Fists and couldn't pick up the speed boost due to Volt Absorb. Switched out to Pyroak so I could get the Regenerator health back.

|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Rapid Spin|p1a: Arghonaut
|-damage|p1a: Arghonaut|62\/100 brn
|-boost|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|spe|1
|-sideend|p2: Deck Knight|Spikes|[from] move: Rapid Spin|[of] p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|move|p1a: Arghonaut|Spikes|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-sidestart|p2: Deck Knight|Spikes
|
|-heal|p1a: Arghonaut|68\/100 brn|[from] item: Leftovers
|-damage|p1a: Arghonaut|62\/100 brn|[from] brn
|upkeep
|turn|53

Another lucky burn off of Flare Blitz, but what's notable here is Arghonaut can't really keep Spikes up. If did have Close Combat which would have hurt, but not KO'd. I'd have probably Fire Lashed instead of spun at that point. The one speed boost already made 27 faster than Zeraora. I Fire Lash into Equilibra, which doesn't KO but Libra was a sack anyway to get Zeraora in for another round.

|
|switch|p1a: Zeraora|Zeraora|100\/100
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|88\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|turn|55


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Flare Blitz|p1a: Zeraora
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|16\/100
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|186\/357|[from] Recoil
|move|p1a: Zeraora|Close Combat|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|26\/357
|-unboost|p1a: Zeraora|def|1
|-unboost|p1a: Zeraora|spd|1
|
|upkeep
|turn|56


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Rapid Spin|p1a: Zeraora
|-damage|p1a: Zeraora|0 fnt
|-boost|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|spe|1
|-sideend|p2: Deck Knight|Spikes|[from] move: Rapid Spin|[of] p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|faint|p1a: Zeraora
|
|upkeep


|
|switch|p1a: Clefable|Clefable, F|57\/100 brn
|turn|57


|
|move|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|Fire Lash|p1a: Clefable
|-damage|p1a: Clefable|15\/100 brn
|-unboost|p1a: Clefable|def|1
|move|p1a: Clefable|Moonblast|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|-damage|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn|0 fnt
|faint|p2a: Qi-Gon Djinn
|
|-heal|p1a: Clefable|22\/100 brn|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep

At this point I could have Flare Blitzed for a KO, but went for Fire Lash in case of a switch to Arghonaut where I would have recoiled and Fable could have stalled out something else. With only a Burned Arghonaut left I don't think it mattered as I had a healthy Dracovish in the back, but Fire Lash is a great safety option even here too.

Overall I think these games demonstrate the efficacy of this set, its flexibility, and the necessity of each move in terms of offensive support. Keeping hazards off the field so you can retain momentum, pressuring reliance on WishPort, and punishing overzealous support play are all great aspects of the set.

 

[Sereg]

I have to agree with those concerned about not having support options on what is supposed to be an offensive support Mon.

That said, I think allowing fire lash worsens instead of improving the situation. I think fire lash fails to meet the definition of support move. Why? Because your opponent's defense being lowered encourages you to attack, not switch. So your teammates don't usually face the Mon with lowered defense. This makes it another offensive move. Not a support move. In addition, it will likely be run with an additional fire move, taking away space from actual support options.

Rapid spin does raise speed, which is concerning, but if it is too much, defog is a much weaker option and should not be automatically excluded.


Also, there is a hazard that hasn't been discussed. It is the rarest and is therefore less "boring". So, is Sticky Webs allowed?


Also, as it is a strong, usually disallowed, move, but is great support, especially if wish isn't allowed, is Leech Seed allowed?

Also, trapping is usually disliked (for good reason), but is also something that can be used for support, and we're trying to find the less common support options, what about Fire Spin?

 

[ImperialGamer517]

Moveset Submission

Name: Utility
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz allows CAP27 consistent damage output for its teammates.
• Dragon Claw is useful against slower Dragon-types who would come in to resist CAP27’s Fire-type STAB
• Rapid Spin allows CAP27 to remove hazards from its side of the field, allowing for its teammates to be prevented from being worn down, furthering its ability as an offensive support Pokemon.
• Spikes allows CAP27 to wear down foes switching in, allowing its teammates to clean and break more easily, furthering its ability as an offensive support Pokemon.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Moveset Submission

Name: Spike Stacker
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Flare Blitz
Move 3: Will-o-Wisp
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Fire Lash helps lay the pressure on foes with its Defense drops and pressure bulkier Pokemon like Clefable.
• Flare Blitz is stronger but riskier than Fire Lash. Helps you exert more immediate pressure on the opponent. Can be run over or with Fire Lash, depending on how confident you feel in dealing with Fire-type resistances.
• Dragon Claw is used to hit anything Fire Lash doesn't do well on, like opposing Fire and Dragon-types.
• Will-o-Wisp can help against physical attackers such as Kommo-o as shown in my replay, or other Pokemon like Terrakion.
• Spikes is great for taking advantage of CAP27's great speed tier and scary STAB combo to rack up damage to help teammates throughout the battle.
• EVs and item are your standard affair. Self-explanatory.

There honestly isn't too much to say about this set. Spikes is a very good move for CAP27 and this set shows that. Fire Lash is surprisingly not as strong as people make it out to be, and with something like my set, imo it doesn't force us to focus solely on offense, especially when switches are predicted properly. The replay that utilizes this set can be found here. Thanks Dogfish44!!

It seems that the community consensus has swung in the direction of allowing Spikes, and I think Rev's post is a great example of a moveset submission that includes it. While I still feel it's an extremely strong addition to CAP 27's repertoire, I trust everyone else's judgement that this mon felt underwhelming without "hard utility" such as hazards. One thing I would encourage others to try is playing against a Spikes-stacking CAP 27 without having one of your own on your team. Because I'm still unsure of what the proper counterplay is, given that none of our intended counters (Toxapex, Hippowdon, Arghonaut, and Seismitoad) have a way to remove Spikes, and all of them are heavily pressured by the Spikes themselves.

Moveset Submission

Name: Utility
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz allows CAP27 consistent damage output for its teammates.
• Dragon Claw is useful against slower Dragon-types who would come in to resist CAP27’s Fire-type STAB
• Rapid Spin allows CAP27 to remove hazards from its side of the field, allowing for its teammates to be prevented from being worn down, furthering its ability as an offensive support Pokemon.
• Spikes allows CAP27 to wear down foes switching in, allowing its teammates to clean and break more easily, furthering its ability as an offensive support Pokemon.

I don't mean to attack your moveset submission, but it seems to be a combination of Deck Knight and Reviloja's submissions that came before it, and I think it's too strong. Rapid Spin and Spikes are both top-tier support moves that add a lot of power to CAP 27 via utility. I would be much more comfortable with Defog + Spikes as a suggestion, because that combination guarantees more difficult decision-making (should I Defog away my own Spikes to get rid of the foe's hazards?) and more counterplay options (stacking hazards of your own against CAP 27 and forcing them to make that choice). In general, I am wary of giving both the tools to lay hazards and the tools to remove them to a Regenerator mon.

 

[Deck Knight]

Sereg rather than quote bit by bit, the fundamental issue with a lot of support moves is that they are a massive momentum sink. Role Compression is a very serious issue if a Pokemon wants room for any of these support moves. It needs to be able to form its set so that it can pressure opponents from coming in.

My experience specifically with Fire Lash is that it's mediocre if a strong threat is already in, but its presence keeps a lot of them out. That gives you the freedom to run another support move. When I'm in the 1v1 against a strong threat (thatI can actuallydo something to), a huge portion of the time I prefer going with Flare Blitz. Essentially you want to buy turns where your opponent chips at CAP with what is already in instead of switching out to a threat that gets nullified if it eats a Fire Lash. It certainly keeps Clefable from trying to be a healing battery pack for a team.

"Offensive Support" as a concept is tricky to nail down. It needs to be offensive enough to avoid passive play against it. I believe we've achieved that. Now the issue us what kind of support we want to run. I prefer hazard removal to hazards because removal seems to be closer to a support option whereas hazards are pure offense, just a delay or spread of when the damage hits.

Partial trapping moves were explored as part of the Pajantom discussion, and found very lacking except for Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot. The rest are too weak and give up too much momentum to switchins, who broadly can survive the chip.

 

[Sereg]

Well, yes. If you're running Fire Lash, you're running another fire move as well. That's my point. Use a third slot for your dragon stab and you only have one slot left for a utility move. You may disagree with me, but I see that as an inherently bad thing for our concept.

 

[Mx]

I have to agree with Sereg. At first I liked Fire Lash because, in theory, it gave us a better, more spammable STAB than Flare Blitz, but testing has shown that in practice Fire Lash is better used alongside Flare Blitz because its initial damage is just too low. In these cases, Fire Lash goes directly against our concept, as it is an inherently selfish move that benefits CAP 27 and not any of its teammates (at least outside of very fringe situations) and it occupies a valuable moveslot that could have been used by moves much more in line with our concept like Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, or Taunt.

 

[CoolMan6001]

Moveset Submission

Name: Psychic Coverage
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Will-O-Wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk, 4 SpD, 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz and Dragon Claw are STABs
• Psychic Fangs makes some of the checks/counters like Toxapex, Arghonaut, and Terrakion more shaky to be used against the set. (Read previous posts from me for these calcs.
• Will-O-Wisp cripples physical attackers and can nullify Leftovers.

 

[Hematite]

Moveset Submission

Name: Psychic Coverage
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Will-O-Wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk, 4 SpD, 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz and Dragon Claw are STABs
• Psychic Fangs makes some of the checks/counters like Toxapex, Arghonaut, and Terrakion more shaky to be used against the set. (Read previous posts from me for these calcs.
• Will-O-Wisp cripples physical attackers and can nullify Leftovers.

To clarify, your last post was arguing that Psychic coverage over 65 BP - including the example of Psychic Fangs - should be disallowed. Did you change your mind on this/is there a reason you want to submit this as a moveset, or are you just posting this set to draw attention to that and still pushing for a ban?
I have to agree with your previous post - I think it's a bad thing that this makes its intended counters shakier.

Edit: okay, makes sense! C:

 

[ImperialGamer517]

It seems that the community consensus has swung in the direction of allowing Spikes, and I think Rev's post is a great example of a moveset submission that includes it. While I still feel it's an extremely strong addition to CAP 27's repertoire, I trust everyone else's judgement that this mon felt underwhelming without "hard utility" such as hazards. One thing I would encourage others to try is playing against a Spikes-stacking CAP 27 without having one of your own on your team. Because I'm still unsure of what the proper counterplay is, given that none of our intended counters (Toxapex, Hippowdon, Arghonaut, and Seismitoad) have a way to remove Spikes, and all of them are heavily pressured by the Spikes themselves.



I don't mean to attack your moveset submission, but it seems to be a combination of Deck Knight and Reviloja's submissions that came before it, and I think it's too strong. Rapid Spin and Spikes are both top-tier support moves that add a lot of power to CAP 27 via utility. I would be much more comfortable with Defog + Spikes as a suggestion, because that combination guarantees more difficult decision-making (should I Defog away my own Spikes to get rid of the foe's hazards?) and more counterplay options (stacking hazards of your own against CAP 27 and forcing them to make that choice). In general, I am wary of giving both the tools to lay hazards and the tools to remove them to a Regenerator mon.

I’m trying to make CAP27 like other offensive support mons like Excadrill. Thanks for the feedback still

 

[99_Problems]

As per LucarioOfLegends’ request, Roland and I collaborated to come up with the following set:

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Heal Bell
Move 2: Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Knock Off / Will-o-wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252atk/4spd/252spe
Nature: Jolly

• This set aims to provide cleric support for our team, a valuable niche to have in a metagame riddled with status spreaders and defined by high turn counts. Balance teams especially appreciate the ability to remove Toxic repeatedly through a long match. The aim of the set is not to outright beat most of these status users, but disrupt their gameplan enough to render them ineffective, while still maintaining offensive pressure through use of our dual stabs.
• Heal Bell is the core move of this set.
• Fire Lash is the Fire stab of choice, allowing us to effectively force out Clefable and threaten other defensive pokemon better than Flare Blitz, while preserving our HP and giving us more opportunities to use Heal Bell.
• Dragon Claw deals meaningful damage to most things that resist our Fire stab, and plays very well with defense drops from Fire Lash.
• Knock Off is the primary choice for our last moveslot, as the utility of item removal is undeniable. The combination of Hell Bell and Knock Off is especially notable for providing a consistent way to interfere with Toxapex.
• Will-o-wisp is an alternative option that allows 27 to cripple physical attackers, while also fulfilling a similar role as Knock Off against bulky water- and ground-types with Leftovers.
• If more bulk is desired, EVs can be divested from speed to our defensive stats. The most notable values are 224 to outspeed base 110, 208 to outspeed base 108, and 152 to outspeed base 101. A Jolly nature should always be used to hit these benchmarks.

Now, a completely unrelated spiel about spikes. After playing some test server games, and reviewing numerous replays, it’s pretty apparent that it’s an excellent tool for us to have while not being oppressive. 27 really benefits from a move that gives it some play against things that otherwise completely stop us in our tracks (looking at you, Toxapex). At the same time, spikes isn’t the end all be all of 27’s utility. Even with spikes in the mix on the test server, I’ve seen plenty of sets used to great effect that don’t include spikes. Therefore, some of the fear that spikes would completely overshadow and push out other utility options seems a little misplaced. I would love to see spikes allowed going forward.

 

[Agile Turtle]

I've for sure missed a lot this past week due to finals/work, but I've finally read through this thread and I've got some thoughts of my own. Love the discussion so far.

I want to chime in and talk about sets that have already been proposed, rather than propose any of my own. I like pretty much every set following the STAB/STAB/Support/Support formula, so I won't comment on those. I'll mainly comment on sets that are more niche.

Name: 27 go boom
Move 1: Explosion
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Will-o-Wisp / Thunderwave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

I like Explosion on this. A good way to do a lot of damage and grab momentum, at the cost of losing 27. I like the synergy with Fire Lash, too. Definitely something I'll have to play with.

Name: Specially Offensive Lure
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Dragon Pulse / Flamethrower
Move 4: Taunt / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Flamethrower and Dragon Pulse are too weak, especially coming off of 92 base special attack, to even be used, as this think kinda relies on the high base power of Draco Meteor and Fire Blast to even work correctly. I think realistically the way this set plays out is it'll ideally lure the physically defensive threats you want it to, and then do a large chunk to them. While you can 2HKO them, they're likely not going to let you, so they'll switch out, giving you another turn to click a different move. Especially since the special lure only works once a match if at all, you'll need the support moves in your moveslots to continue being useful after the fact, and if your only support move is taunt or encore, that limits what 27 can do even more. This set really wants a status it can spread. And although life orb recoil sucks, especially on a move coming from an uninvested stat, knock off is still a good way to be useful after you've revealed being special. Taunt is still really good to use against the Clefables that'll end up switching in after you've revealed being special, though. I think a set like this would function a lot better:
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave
-Taunt / Knock Off / Healing Wish / Aromatherapy

Name: Mixed Attacker
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Draco Meteor
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp / Healing Wish
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 12 Atk / 240 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Hasty

My biggest issue with this set is that I think EVing for a Life Orb Flare Blitz 2HKO on clef is a wasted endeavor. LO + Flare Blitz recoil just seems like a very bad idea on a mon whose defenses are barely enough to avoid the moonblast 2HKO without any recoil. It's made for a mon who you won't switch into, and a mon that won't switch into 27.

Name: AV Green Mage (Special Status Inducer)
Move 1: Knock Off
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Draco Meteor
Move 4: Lava Plume / Dragon Breath / Nuzzle
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 72 HP / 96 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Interesting set for sure. I'd definitely wanna see some calcs/see it in play tho. With hazards on the field I see HDB being much better, but if you keep them off the field then I can definitely see the special bulk boost helping. Really curious about the damage output though. I have no issue with nuzzle, and if AV sets see any use I'd like seeing them use nuzzle rather than not.

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Fire Lash / Heat Crash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Trick
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

I'm a big fan of a choice band on 27. Definitely more on the offensive side but I think with trick and the extra damage you can get with it against mons that might otherwise be fine taking hits from 27 makes it fine for our concept. And although Darmanitan has a significantly better damage output, 27 has the benefit of a better speed tier. I really love the idea of tricking a choice band to toxapex >:).

Name: Scarf User
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off/ Coverage
Move 4: Switcheroo/ Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Name: **Trickster Cleric**
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Move 3: Healing Wish / Aromatherapy
Move 4: Trick / Switcheroo
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

In the same vein as a Choice Band, I'm also not against a Choice Scarf set. Trick/Switcheroo, and being able to outspeed mons it otherwise wouldn't are cool for the concept imo. However a key mon a choice scarf lets you outspeed is not OHKO'd by dragon claw with a jolly nature:
252 Atk Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 290-344 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
An adamant nature does get it though:
252+ Atk Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 320-380 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As does a neutral nature uninvested Draco Meteor:
0 SpA Charizard-Mega-X Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 330-390 (104.1 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I think these sets could use some workshopping. Could be as simple as changing the nature to adamant, or it could be playing with the speed tiers and allocating extra EVs elsewhere.

Name: Disable Tech
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Disable
Move 4: Substitute / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Encore+Disable is definitely a funny combo, and I don't really see it being oppressive like Block/Imprison/Transform Mew. I think 27 wants a way to take advantage of the switches it'll force, and this set doesn't really give it that (but maybe that's a good thing in regard to team support). You can still switch out when you expect the opponent to though (or click sub if you don't have one up already). I think this set is a cool way to allow 27 to sit in on a few mons that would usually win 1v1 like mollux, and for that reason I like it.

Name: Non Snael Webs Lead
Move 1: Sticky Web
Move 2: Taunt
Move 3: Fire Lash
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Memento
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Haven't seen any discussion on Sticky Web beyond this, and I do think like other hazard options this would dominate moveslots, but I also think by nature of being a more unique hazard with low distribution, webs are more interesting. I think exploring them with a suicide lead isn't the way to go, as that's what most sticky webs users do (suicide lead sets will still appear if it gets webs for sure though). I think by nature of being a regen mon it might be better to look at it as a mon that can set them up repeatedly vs teams with good hazard removal. I'm very cautious of webs, but also interested.

Name: Ability Remover/Debuffer
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Knock Off
Move 3: Simple Beam
Move 4: Screech / Noble Roar
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb / Heavy Duty Boots /
EVs: 252 Att / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This is something I'd definitely need to see in play to believe works. Simple Beam vs mons like Toxapex could be good to remove regen when it switches out, but 27 isn't going to do much damage to pex anyway that losing regen won't be that big of a deal. I also don't see how simple beam->fire lash is any better than fire lash->fire lash. And the thing with Simple Beam and debuffing stats is that the opponent can easily just switch out. And I think you definitely want hazards up and a good way to take advantage of the switches to make this set work.

--

Do we think CAP27 should get access to Paralyzing Moves?

The whole process I've wanted for it to get access to thunder wave tbh. I don't really see it being oppressive, or outright better than WoW/other support moves either, but with a high speed tier/good offensive presence/regenerator I can see the potential for it to be out of hand. So having not done the testing I won't outright say yes.

I haven't seen any mention of Dragon Tail/Phazing in general thus far, and that's probably due to 27's high speed tier and lower bulk. But 27 isn't frail and I think especially if 27 is forcing switches like it's supposed to using Dragon Tail could be really good with hazards up, getting chip damage on 2 mons in the same turn. Definitely something I'll have to play with.

I briefly want to talk about Wish, seeing as it was allowed for discussion again. I've been of the opinion mainly that it wouldn't be broken or overpowered on 27, but that it encourages a more passive style of play, which isn't in line with my idea of "offensive support." It's something I want to test more for sure cause I would love to see Wish on a mon like 27 that embodies good two move coverage and has Regenerator to help it. I've only gotten to do one test battle with it so far, and my Wish 27 mainly only clicked wish and immediately switched out, so I'm still of the opinion that it encourages playing too passive for me to consider it offensive support. That's really all I feel I can say on it at the moment.

More opinions likely to come as I get some opportunities to test.

 

[Bughouse]

While I do think it is a good thing for CAP 27 to get Fire Lash, which is a generally risk-less STAB (I mean, it lacks Flare Blitz's recoil, yet is just as strong on the second hit), I'd like to raise the general point that one of the main benefits of Regenerator is the ability to use moves that might otherwise be too niche or risky, for a specific purpose. The ability generally opens up the possibility to use these sets that other mons might not. The goal of these sets is often to stay in a Pokemon that is supposed to beat you, take heavy damage, and retaliate with something that lets you beat that opponent in the long run. You then switch out and Regenerate some health, and figure out how to continue to heal as the battle continues.

This isn't to say that Regenerator mons don't also use common, safe moves. If a legit good set with 4 standard moves exist and the mon just has Regenerator to boot, obviously that's fine too.

But some examples of offbeat moves that Regenerator mons have run in various metas include:
Alomomola - Mirror Coat / Magic Coat
Slowking - Future Sight / Zap Cannon
Amoonguss - Stomping Tantrum
Mienshao - Fake Out

I'd be interested to see what sort of riskier, or otherwise more niche option might be viable on CAP27. Counter/Coat are obvious possibilities, especially due to CAP27's reasonably high HP. A move that has a relatively low chance to inflict status like Zap Cannon is also an option. I do wonder if moves like TWave, Glare, or Nuzzle are letting CAP 27 off too easily in the "messes with its checks" department.
Dragon Rush could be an option to give CAP 27 riskier STAB, though Dragon Claw would have to be removed in that case or Dragon Rush would never be run anyway. (For the record, this wouldn't be that unusual - Flapple doesn't learn Dragon Claw, but it does learn Dragon Rush, for example).

 

[99_Problems]

While I do think it is a good thing for CAP 27 to get Fire Lash, which is a generally risk-less STAB (I mean, it lacks Flare Blitz's recoil, yet is just as strong on the second hit), I'd like to raise the general point that one of the main benefits of Regenerator is the ability to use moves that might otherwise be too niche or risky, for a specific purpose. The ability generally opens up the possibility to use these sets that other mons might not. The goal of these sets is often to stay in a Pokemon that is supposed to beat you, take heavy damage, and retaliate with something that lets you beat that opponent in the long run. You then switch out and Regenerate some health, and figure out how to continue to heal as the battle continues.

This isn't to say that Regenerator mons don't also use common, safe moves. If a legit good set with 4 standard moves exist and the mon just has Regenerator to boot, obviously that's fine too.

But some examples of offbeat moves that Regenerator mons have run in various metas include:
Alomomola - Mirror Coat / Magic Coat
Slowking - Future Sight / Zap Cannon
Amoonguss - Stomping Tantrum
Mienshao - Fake Out

I'd be interested to see what sort of riskier, or otherwise more niche option might be viable on CAP27. Counter/Coat are obvious possibilities, especially due to CAP27's reasonably high HP. A move that has a relatively low chance to inflict status like Zap Cannon is also an option. I do wonder if moves like TWave, Glare, or Nuzzle are letting CAP 27 off too easily in the "messes with its checks" department.
Dragon Rush could be an option to give CAP 27 riskier STAB, though Dragon Claw would have to be removed in that case or Dragon Rush would never be run anyway. (For the record, this wouldn't be that unusual - Flapple doesn't learn Dragon Claw, but it does learn Dragon Rush, for example).

I’m not sure that risk is an element 27 needs as an offensive support. A large part of our role is being able to do our job both effectively and consistently, and adding in a lot of RNG reduces both of these. The last thing we want is for our Dragon Rush to miss at a key moment in the game, or for our last ditch attempt at statusing a sweeper to do nothing. If it comes down to having Dragon Rush or no dragon stab, 27 would likely just run no dragon stab, and Zap Cannon is in a similar situation when it comes to paralysis.

I do like your point about more niche moves. 27 looks likely to get some uncommonly distributed moves, and I’m sure there’s others we haven’t touched on yet. The main thing there is making sure those moves can actually do something to further our support gameplan, otherwise we’re basically just adding flavor.

 

[Sereg]

What Bughouse means (and I agree) is that being able to spam an offensive move makes you pure offense, not offensive support. To be support, you have to be using utility moves and switching in teammates that can benefit from those moves.

 

[Bughouse]

The point is just that it's generally speaking ok to risk 75% accuracy on a mon with Regenerator, as we've seen with Torn-T and Hurricane. Even though its STAB is unreliable, no one considers Torn-T to be an unreliable mon overall. Regenerator makes Torn-T not the same as how when most mons miss a focus blast, they're then dead. When Torn-T misses a Hurricane, you're frustrated, but you'll generally speaking have lots more chances to spam it later on due to Regenerator.

Not at all insisting that Dragon Rush > Dragon Claw be the path that is taken, but I would like to see something in the moves department that really takes advantage of Regenerator be added to CAP 27. A risk-less mon with regenerator is likely to just be generically good since Regenerator is a great ability, and kinda misses the opportunity to experiment and really benefit from regenerator's perks.

 

[99_Problems]

What Bughouse means (and I agree) is that being able to spam an offensive move makes you pure offense, not offensive support. To be support, you have to be using utility moves and switching in teammates that can benefit from those moves.

I really don’t think that’s a position 27 is currently in. After testing, I can say with confidence that Fire Lash is far from spammable. More spammable than Flare Blitz? Definitely. Better than any other stab at beating things like Clef and Tomo? Absolutely. But there’s still plenty of things that are perfectly fine with switching into our stabs, regardless of the specific move. It’s not like we’re lacking in utility at this point in the process either. Between potential options like knock, status, spikes, taunt, and hwish/wish, we have a lot of different ways to provide the necessary support for our teammates.

The point is just that it's generally speaking ok to risk 75% accuracy on a mon with Regenerator, as we've seen with Torn-T and Hurricane. Even though its STAB is unreliable, no one considers Torn-T to be an unreliable mon overall. Regenerator makes Torn-T not the same as how when most mons miss a focus blast, they're then dead. When Torn-T misses a Hurricane, you're frustrated, but you'll generally speaking have lots more chances to spam it later on due to Regenerator.

Not at all insisting that Dragon Rush > Dragon Claw be the path that is taken, but I would like to see something in the moves department that really takes advantage of Regenerator be added to CAP 27. A risk-less mon with regenerator is likely to just be generically good since Regenerator is a great ability, and kinda misses the opportunity to experiment and really benefit from regenerator's perks.

This is a reasonable stance, not one I necessarily agree with but I like the verbiage here a lot better than your first post. I just personally feel as though elimination of hax is for the better in this case. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with making a generically good mon, and we already have some degree of risk involved with our moves; Dragon moves can be tricky with Fairies around, WoW has imperfect accuracy, Flare Blitz recoil is a thing, etc.

 

[Sereg]

Being capable of using utility moves isn't enough. It also has to be worth it to use them. If you are usually better off only using offensive moves, you are just an offensive Mon with some utility options.

 

[G-Luke]

Being capable of using utility moves isn't enough. It also has to be worth it to use them. If you are usually better off only using offensive moves, you are just an offensive Mon with some utility options.

What are you proposing then, Sereg? From playing with CAP 27 on the test server, moves like hazards and status inflicting moves are of great value, and even though I haven't seen it, I can't imagine a physical attacking Pokemon that doesn't utilize Knock Off well. If you are so hellbent that CAP 27 as it currently stands is so hesitant towards using support options, do you have any replays that suggest this claim? Because if you don't, i am not buying it.

 

[Sereg]

What are you proposing then, Sereg? From playing with CAP 27 on the test server, moves like hazards and status inflicting moves are of great value, and even though I haven't seen it, I can't imagine a physical attacking Pokemon that doesn't utilize Knock Off well. If you are so hellbent that CAP 27 as it currently stands is so hesitant towards using support options, do you have any replays that suggest this claim? Because if you don't, i am not buying it.

All I am asking for is caution. Hazards and status inflicting moves being used well? That's great News! But remember that those were almost banned! (Also, I don't consider Knock-off a utility move on a physical Pokémon. I consider it an offensive move with a utility benefit. Not identical in my opinion, but that is splitting hairs.)

Imagine what would happen if the decision to ban them was reinstated. I am merely asking for stuff like that to be considered before doing anything like that.

I never claimed that the status and hazard moves were not good enough or that CAP27 as it stands had the problems I feared. I was arguing for moves like them to be allowed. Again, this is request for caution when it comes to banning utility moves. That's all.

 

[Pipotchi]

I think the Encore Disable route is really bad route for a mon that gets free substitute health every time it switches as well as outspeeding most of the metagame, while also causing a ton of switches with its access to Fire Lash. Why are we making life even harder for the mons that barely check us to begin with, all of which are slower... Im rly not interested in going this route, I know ppl are gunna say its "fun" but in practice its just some bullshit and a tiresome addition to the metagame, not to mention not tying into being supportive. The problem move of the two is probably Disable, because its annoying with both Encore and Sub, whereas Encore alone is a lot more manageable. Lets not eliminate every specs and band pokemon outside of Dragapult too.
It just leaves me asking why do we need this kind of tool @_@ its random, eats up two of our slots, and pulls the mon in a weird non-supportive direction. I dont know if its competitively broken or not, but apparently saying its an ugly/unwanted route is enough justification if enough ppl say it, so I'll just agree with them.

Also, Ive played a ton of games with Spikes and it feels fine and strong. This mon is desperately wanting something in its movepool that makes it actually valuable to add it to teams, and Spikes fits the bill. It still loses to all the same stuff as before, and existing mons can re-gear to handle it if teams want, like Mandibuzz and Tomo as removal/walls. The route of Regenerator always needed to have some actual hard support as opposed to looser options (like the ptouch or serene grace routes) and Im fine with Spikes being that.