CAP 27 - Part 8 Moveset Discussion

[LucarioOfLegends]

Quick Note:

Not to long ago in Discord the topic of Heat Crash weight came up. After some preliminary benchmarks were being discussed, it was clear that these benchmarks (100 minimum against Clefable or Corviknight) would have a serious impact on the artistic stages of CAP27, especially since Art is currently to the polls. With the benchmarks above, CAP27 would be at minimum 200kg, which means that lankier designs would either be outright voted against in polls, or if they would win they would have to expanded to unrealistic and unintended proportions.

After a bit of discussion with the rest of TLT, we found it extremely unfair for the artists to go forward with allowing Heat Crash, as they are not given the time in advance to adjust their designs with the new weight restrictions in mind, as submissions have already closed and we are safely into the art polls. Thus, we have decided that Heat Crash is now disallowed. This ruling is similar in nature to one given during Naviathan's process, as it was denied Heavy Slam for not having a defined weight at that point in the process. Heat Crash will be allowed during the process of movepool submissions, but the weight tied to it will be set for flavor implications only.

Edit: Due to concerns of votes being skewed towards heavier designs in more hope of a strong Heat Crash, so it is disallowed completely.

 

[MrPanda]

Moveset Submission

Name: Drop this sh*t OFF!!
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Glare / Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Fire Lash because 100% Defense drop is always helpful.
• Dragon Claw as secondary STAB.
• Knock Off to remove items and possibly cripple the enemy pokémon.
• Glare, WoW and TWave as a secondary utility option and to cripple the enemy pokémon even more.
• Boots to avoid hazards damage.
• 252 Atk EVs to maximize the damage output, 224 Spe EVs + Jolly nature to outspeed full invested 110 base Speed pokémon.

Moveset Submission

Name: SSS (Standard Spikes Support)
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Spikes
Move 4: Knock Off / Healing Wish / Taunt
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Primary STAB. Flare Blitz is preferable because the raw damage, but Fire Lash is totally viable.
• Second STAB.
• Spikes is the main utility option in this set and punishes the opposing switches.
• Knock Off, Healing Wish and Taunt for additional utility.
• Boots to make hazards cry and Life Orb to boost the damage output.
• Same EV spread, same nature, same results.

 

[Zephyri]

Moveset submission

Name: Offensive Balance Breaker

Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Fire Lash
Move 4: Clear Smog/ Will-O-Wisp/ Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 speed/ 200 Atk/ 56 HP

-Fire Lash as its go-to stab move, that cripples physical walls and disturbs balance
-Knock Off to cripple pokemon that are heavily reliant on items
-Taunt to cripple walls and defensive utility based mons like Clefable or Toxapex
-Clear Smog/ Will-O-Wisp/ Thunder Wave to spread status, with the bonus of Clear Smog being weak coverage for fairies while also dissuading mons like Cosmic Power Clefable or Swords Dance Hawlucha from setting up on 27
-HD Boots to minimize chip damage, as this mon will be switching in and out a lot

 

[MrDollSteak]

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: Aromatherapy / Protect
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

As one of the only people that seems to be advocating for Wish I thought I would propose this spicy set. While Wish is normally only run with Protect, I believe CAP 27's strong offenses and ability to force switches can allow for Wish or Aromatherapy to be used on the switch before swapping out again to heal up the team without the need to actually run protect. Fire Lash and Dragon Claw achieve basically everything we need offensively and subsequently can still be clicked easily. While this may not look the most pro-momentum set, the switches that CAP 27 can force, and Regenerator itself, allow for Aromatherapy and Wish to be used without completely dropping momentum. In addition, Fire Lash is an incredibly clickable move that can mess with opponents that predict an Aromatherapy or Wish. 224 Speed EVs is ideally what I think most CAP 27 should be running (unless we want to outspeed eachother) because there's nothing between 110 and our speed tier at this stage. In comparison to moves such as Knock Off, Taunt and Status, the two utility moves here are designed to support team mates by giving them more survivability, and the ability to keep pushing through opposing Pokemon that CAP 27 cannot handle. Protect is of course an option over Aromatherapy should status not be a concern.

Moveset Submission

Name: Screens Lead
Move 1: Reflect
Move 2: Light Screen
Move 3: Taunt
Move 4: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Light Clay
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

With a great speed tier, and reasonable bulk, CAP 27 can act as an effective Screens-setter, in a style reminiscent to Tapu Koko from Gen 7. Taunt shuts down passive Pokemon, while Reflect and Light Screen provide the team with excellent defensive utility, allowing for Hyper Offensive teams to be a little bit more able to plough through teams. Regenerator synergises well with the role of a screen setter, as it gives it further opportunities to set them up. Fire Lash is the chosen attacking option because of the utility it provides in lowering Defense, though Flare Blitz can be run for additional power.

 

[MrPanda]

Moveset Submission

Name: **Trickster Cleric**
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Move 3: Healing Wish / Aromatherapy
Move 4: Trick / Switcheroo
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Set inspired by [Gen7 Ubers] Scarf Xerneas set.

• Flare Blitz is the mandatory choice for the raw damage and to force switches. Fire Lash can be used, but Flare Blitz probably will be better in the most of the times.
• Dragon Claw to hit Dragon-types and other Fire resists. Also, Dragon Rush can be used over it for more consistent damage at the cost of consistent accuracy. Are you feeling lucky?
• Healing Wish to bring a teammate back to the game at the cost of CAP27's health. Aromatherapy can be considered over it as a repeatable utility, allowing CAP27 to heal its team while maintains it in the game.
• Trick/Switcheroo to cripple some walls and passive pokémon in general as well as reckless setuppers.
• EV spread is the same because I liked it. Also, it outspeeds 110 base Scarf users like Gengar and Kitsunoh.

Following the considerations of our Movepool Leader, LucarioOfLegends, I decided to alter my submission to a more Max/Max-like spread. After all what's the point with Scarf set if you can't, at least, Speed tie with other Scarf users.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Moveset Submission

Name: Priority Pressure
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Extreme Speed
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Taunt/Will O' Wisp/Dragon Claw
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Speed
Nature: Jolly

So I'm going to start off with the fact that attempting to be offensive in the CAP metagame with only 108 base ATK and an ability that doesn't augment it is a very tall order. This set seeks to augment that with priority moves. Flare Blitz into guaranteed first move Extreme Speed is very potent, and keeps a large number of offensive threats from switching in. Knock Off deals with defensive threats and Ghost types that are immune to Extreme Speed. From there, you have a few options. Taunt helps bolster you against Defensive mons like Clefable and Toxapex. Will O' Wisp can punish physical attacks and gives our high health start more weight behind it. Dragon Claw is there if you really need CAP to kill Pajantom in one attack.

Our Speed is set to speed creep Pajantom, and the full investment in ATK lets us kill Zeraora with Flare Blitz followed by Extreme Speed. The rest is poured into bulk.

 

[porcupine21]

Moveset Submission
Name: Fast Bulky Wish Support
Move 1: Wish
Move 2: Glare
Move 3:Life Dew/Protect/Dragon Claw
Move 4:Flare Blitz
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• 252 Speed EVs with a beneficial nature allow CAP 27 to outspeed Pajantom, among its notable threats. It also beats out Coalossoil and Jumbao.
• 252 EVs in HP allow CAP 27 to be used as a bulky Wish cleric, giving 210 points of health to the Pokemon receiving the Wish.
  In the sun against bulky variants of Malaconda and Jumbao, Flare Blitz nets a guaranteed 2HKO with a chance to OHKO.
• Heavy-Duty boots allow for freely switching in , while Glare can be used in conjunction with Wish to paralyze offensive threats such as Excadrill and Stratagem
• Life Dew is for instant recovery or Protect can be used for Clefable-esque Wish/Protect combos.
• Dragon Claw can be used with an alternate EV spread of 100 HP/ 156 Atk/ 252 Spe which gets 2HKOes on Pajantom and offensive Cyclohm, while also boosting the power of Flare Blitz to take on Steel/Fairy types.

 

[Roland le preaux]

So I hate to be the bad guy, but everyone is submitting movesets and no one is commenting on them. I have a few issues with some submissions.

Name: Lead
Move 1: Taunt / Magic Coat
Move 2: Spikes
Move 3 Fire Lash / Knock Off / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Memento/ Explosion
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Focus Sash
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Why would a fast, frail mon with access to both Spikes and Taunt ever run Magic Coat? You can Taunt them to prevent their hazards, or click Spikes to get up hazards of your own. Magic Coat is not a viable option compared to Taunt and I think it should be removed to make your submission more realistic. I'm still not a fan of Spikes in general, but I didn't strikethrough that move because it's clearly the basis of this set.

Name: Offensive Balance Breaker

Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Fire Lash
Move 4: Poison Jab/ Will-O-Wisp/ Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 speed/ 200 Atk/ 56 HP

Usable Poison coverage is bad for this mon. It hits Fairy/Water types like Primarina that are perfect type counters and listed as such on our threats list. Giving CAP 27 Poison Jab is one big step closer to making it an all-out attacker, which is a purely offensive niche that is anti-concept. That being said, I would hate for ALL poison coverage to be disallowed, given that moves like Poison Tail and Smog would be perfectly fine as flavor for the movepools, and moves like Clear Smog might even be on-concept utility options. I think we should disallow Poison Coverage >60 BP, just like we did with Ground-type coverage.

252 Atk Turtonator Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 196-232 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Name: Fast Bulky Wish Support
Move 1: Wish
Move 2: Glare Thunder Wave
Move 3: Life Dew/Protect/Dragon Claw
Move 4: Flare Blitz
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Life Dew is simply not a viable move in singles. I'm sorry but it would be 100% a flavor option if we did get it. (I don't think it fits flavor anyway). I also think Glare is too strong of an option because it punishes the Ground-types that are supposed to be counters to our physically offensive sets. I would change Glare to Thunder Wave and get rid of Life Dew if you want your submission to be approved.

 

[porcupine21]

Moveset Submission

Name: Physical Attacker+Healing Wish
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Force Palm/Bulldoze
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 100 HP/ 252 Atk/ 156 Spe
Nature: Adamant

• Full investment in Attack + Life Orb allows CAP 27 to function as a decent attacker, netting OHKOes on the likes of Pajantom, Malaconda and Jumbao with a guaranteed 2HKO on Bulk Up Corviknight, full HP Clefable, and offensive Cyclohm sets.
• 156 EVs in Speed allow CAP 27 to outspeed full investment the likes of Pajantom with a neutral nature (Adamant, for example).
• Bulldoze allows for speed control over faster opposition, while Force Palm is an option to inflict paralysis. Healing Wish can be used to bring in a weakened teammate if necessary.
• A teammate with hazard control will be very important to CAP 27, as it will be affected by Stealth Rock and Spikes; especially the 25% damage from Stealth Rock can do much to nullify Regenerator recovery.

 

[porcupine21]

So I hate to be the bad guy, but everyone is submitting movesets and no one is commenting on them. I have a few issues with some submissions.



Usable Poison coverage is bad for this mon. It hits Fairy/Water types like Primarina that are perfect type counters and listed as such on our threats list. Giving CAP 27 Poison Jab is one big step closer to making it an all-out attacker, which is a purely offensive niche that is not on concept.

That being said, I would hate for ALL poison coverage to be disallowed, given that moves like Poison Tail and Smog would be perfectly fine as flavor for the movepools. I think we should disallow Poison Coverage >60 BP, just like we did with Ground-type coverage.

How about Clear Smog? Acts as an anti-setup move but also, being a special move, doesn't do much damage unless you're running a SpAtk set?

 

[Deck Knight]

Moveset Submission

Name: AV Green Mage (Special Status Inducer)
Move 1: Knock Off
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Draco Meteor
Move 4: Lava Plume / Dragon Breath / Nuzzle
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 72 HP / 96 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

• Knock Off removes the item of opposing Pokemon, especially useful against Life Orb Special Attackers.
• Fire Blast provides a powerful special STAB option that can 2HKO Corviknight and OHKO Ferrothorn, Jumbao, and Caribolt.
• Draco Meteor keeps other Dragons away and does great neutral damage.
• Lava Plume is more consistent Fire STAB with a high burn chance, Dragon Breath can still 2HKO Pokemon like Dracovish and Dragapult, but also has a high paralysis chance generally which can cripple other fast threats. It can also safely paralyze Ground types that might switch in. Nuzzle provides 100% paralysis compatible with Assault Vest and minimal damage output, but doesn't hit Ground types.

This set is a reworked version of my Special Support set in my stat submission post, adjusted for MrDollSteak's statline (which was actually more generous to set goals). HP Evs bring HP to 375, which is a Regenerator number (div/3) not coincident with a Stealth Rock or Spikes number (div/4 or div/8). HP Investment ensures Magnet Caribolt Double-Edge only gets a 3HKO, and the special bulk is equivalent to the calculations given in the post. I did however remove Scald from consideration as a move, as the spread had it as a pressure move against Terrakion. Since we now outspeed, I don't want to risk the set approval by adding a move that can outspeed and 2HKO a pressure mon.

As to Nuzzle: Nuzzle is in many ways more balanced than Glare, and is no longer just available to Pikaclones since Hatterene gets it. Even against Pelipper it has poorer damage output than Dragon Claw and about the same as Dragon Breath considering the Base Power vs offensive stat differential. Nuzzle isn't coverage, it's reliable paralysis you can use while running Assault Vest. I think Nuzzle should be allowed.

Moveset Submission

Name: Spin Mie 'Round (Offensive Spinner)
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Fire Lash / Knock Off
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb / Leftovers
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz for a strong offensive STAB and maximum damage output. Regenerator makes up somewhat for the massive recoil incurred from the attack itself and Life Orb.
• Dragon Claw as secondary STAB.
• Rapid Spin is both hazard removal and a speed boost, intended to operate both as flexible support and potential setup.
• Fire Lash softens prediction for other offensive moves on the set, while Knock Off provides additional coverage and item removal.

This set functions similarly to Offensive Spinner Starmie in previous generations, with Rapid Spin support combined with a powerful offensive STAB that can keep most opponents out. Where Starmie had BoltBeam coverage, this relies more on the brute neutral damage of dual STAB. A Leftovers variant of the set was also used because the Life Orb variant scared out so much, but the principle is the same. Even the speed tier and base offensive stat are similar. I also think it is notable that in generation 8, Rapid Spin is no longer strictly a defensive momentum sink, it can actually be a momentum engine, turning around a game entirely. Even if no hazards are on the field, Rapid Spin can generate momentum against potential scarfers (anything other than Scarved Ghosts) and keep them out.

 

[Dogfish44]

Okay, right, you've successfully unlocked 'Grumpy Dogfish'. Please hold. I think the last Moveset post I did was being Grumpy about Spiky Shield thinking about it...

There have been a lot of moveset submitted in here, and I'm noticing a pattern. Most of which take the form "Dragon STAB, Fire STAB, Support Option A, Support Option B". That's not a problem - our concept broadly aims towards that general idea, so if anything that's a Good thing. However, I've noticed a lot of sets posted introducing zero new moves - as in, by my count seven of the posted sets had nothing new to add.

Now, it can be fine to demonstrate problems with certain moves in this way - if you felt that a current combination of moves, whilst on different sets acceptable, would be unhealthy on one set at the same time then you can demonstrate the problem there - but I kind of get the feeling that a lot of sets are just being skipped over? Which means discussion that could be happening simply isn't.

If you're just adding in one move, please try to find a relevant set to add it to rather than create one from scratch! Or mention how this potentially interacts with other sets. And please remember: The fact that a certain set hasn't been submitted is not a problem if all the moves are there - if we don't have a Choice Specs set, then we're not banning CAP27 from running a Choice Specs set if it already has the moves.

Speakaing of a lack of sets, the below """set""" is sort of a mass compilation of 'Every STAB + 2 Support' option that current sets are essentially creating. This is hopefully helpful in providing a way to check for interactions that might be unhealthy, and also to see if we have moves being proposed that really are essentially flavour options (ask anyone who made a movepool for Smokomodo on that one).

Moveset """Submission"""
Name: 2 STAB 2 Support [Compilation]
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash / Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Lava Plume
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Dual Chop / Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Dragon Rush / Outrage
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Glare | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Encore / Explosion / Trick / Wish / Bulldoze / Spikes / Sunny Day / Solar Beam / Magic Coat / Memento / Poison Jab / Protect / Reflect / Light Screen / Extreme Speed / Life Dew / Force Palm / Rapid Spin
Move 4: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Glare | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Encore / Explosion / Trick / Wish / Bulldoze / Spikes / Sunny Day / Solar Beam / Magic Coat / Memento / Poison Jab / Protect / Reflect / Light Screen / Extreme Speed / Life Dew / Force Palm / Rapid Spin
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

What I think is really noticable is how exceedingly bloated our support lineup of moves is. Now some of these are default moves regardless, but I think we really need to spend some time pruning back, rather than planting entirely new moves. A lot of these moves rather simply will never see use, whilst others are completely domineering that will prevent this Pokémon using moves other than those specific moves. I think we risk hassle, one way or the other, if we can't identify those moves.

 

[quziel]

Heat Crash is now disallowed

Can I formally request that Heat Crash be allowed; I think we have enough tools between pokedex entries, size, and other stuff that we could make almost any design work for even 999.9 kg (see 999.9 kg cosmeom, plus a supernova/star is pretty firey), and frankly, it would help to provide a very important midground between Fire Lash (a move that could turn us into an essentially unwallable threat, which despite imo being the best option we have is still worrying) and Flare Blitz (a move that makes us legitimately lose to Spdef Clefable). Explicitly saying that we will make any design work with Heat Crash would imo solve a lot of issues with people voting based on weight. Without Heat Crash I worry about more midground sets being able to make real progress vs a lot of teams as well, you can't really force out Spdef Clefable that efficiently with Blitz, and Lash again is something that worries me a ton.

Edit: was told to elaborate more on Blitz and its issues: if we come in neutrally vs Spdef Clef (something I think we should be able to win vs in a neutral matchup) the following can happen:

Scenario

252 Atk CAP27 Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
CAP 27 took (20.5 - 24.2% recoil damage)
Clefable used Wish

Clefable recovered 6.25% HP from Leftovers

---

Clefable used Protect

Cap 27 Used Flare Blitz

Clefable recovered 6.25% HP from leftovers

Clefable recovered 50% HP from Wish

Clefable is now at 96.1% HP minimimum
CAP 27 is now at 79.5% HP maximum

(repeat as needed)

The difference with Heat Crash is that unlike Flare Blitz you are not wearing yourself down, and that you can make real progress by wasting its Wish PP for no gain of its own, making it far, far easier to make progress.

-------------------

Replying to some stuff;

Extremespeed: I think this move is questionable at best and the combo of Espeed + a potential Fire Lash seems ridiculous. It could work for us but I don't see the need, if anything Sucker Punch also fits a similar role, has more counterplay, and hits Zeraora and Pult.

Rapid Spin: This is move I consider to essentially to be a slot tax given that we're already "HDB+Regen" the power of reliable hazard control is enough that I can't really see it being dropped ever for a weaker option such as Aromatherapy, Healing Wish, or the such. Ye, its prolly a bit unreasonable to expect that, but I also think that we need to reach for elements of support that aren't just "hazards or hazard removal"

Spikes: This is imo the strongest thing here, as because well, if you look at our answers (Pex/Hippo/Tomo) they're all a bit passive, and this move essentially lets us make progress no matter what, literally every single time we get a switchin. Because of that this is both a slot tax, and something that I feel, if chosen, would completely define the mon in an opposite way from Rapid Spin. Color me a bit wary of this option.

Fire Lash: There is a real chance that Fire Lash would result in sets such as Fire Lash / Dragon Claw / Flare Blitz / Knock off which give you the ability to break through a lot of answers if they misplay (eg a Tomohawk that misreads you can be put in range next time), and honestly that kinda set ain't offensive support, its offensive with Knock Off. Overall it definitely offers similar or lower damage to Blitz, which is what makes me less worried, but I am still afraid and would love it if someone could post replays from the test server of it in action. That said, unlike Blitz it lets us actually beat spdef clef rather than recoiling ourselves to death.

------------------------

There's also a lot of options that are simply extremely weak between Life Dew, Sunny Day (just run it with Jumbao) and the 60 BP coverage moves (would see a bit of use but are clearly just heavy tech options).

As for the choice of para move I'm generally most in favor of Thunderwave simply because its the weakest of the bunch. Thunderwave, unlike Glare, preserves Ground-types as a solid answer to us, and unlike nuzzle is 90% accurate and well, doesn't do any damage. Nuzzle itself is also acceptable, but its main niche, that of being usable on an Assault Vest set, is somewhat moot because well, under common battle conditions (aka SR), Heavy Duty Boots provides an essentially equivalent increase in bulk (100/75 ~= 75*1.5) while also increasing special bulk.

As for some moves I personally love; the Taunt-Willowisp set alluded to by Zephyr2007 is nice, though I'd run dual stab instead of Fire+Knock, the Trick sets suggested by Mr.Panda411, Karoshi, and snake_rattler, and the Willo-Knock set suggested by Mr.Panda411 all fulfill the concept pretty well imo.

 

[Reviloja753]

Because I wanna give feedback to moves to help discussion but I am frankly too lazy to analyze each set individually, I'm gonna use this post to cut down on moves I feel we just do not need.

Moveset """Submission"""
Name: 2 STAB 2 Support [Compilation]
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash / Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Lava Plume
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Dual Chop / Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Dragon Rush / Outrage
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Glare | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Encore / Explosion / Trick / Wish / Bulldoze / Spikes / Sunny Day / Solar Beam / Magic Coat / Memento / Poison Jab / Protect / Reflect / Light Screen / Extreme Speed / Life Dew / Force Palm / Rapid Spin
Move 4: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Glare | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Encore / Explosion / Trick / Wish / Bulldoze / Spikes / Sunny Day / Solar Beam / Magic Coat / Memento / Poison Jab / Protect / Reflect / Light Screen / Extreme Speed / Life Dew / Force Palm / Rapid Spin
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

I'm gonna split the moves I feel are not needed into categories for ease of reading.

Dragon STAB

Dual chop is objectively weaker than Dragon Claw with the only differences being able to break sashes and being less accurate. Barely anything runs Focus Sash at the moment so this niche is basically moot. No reason to give it here. Dragon Rush is stronger but super innacurate, and do not tell me Gravity would be a viable set for Dragon Rush because the opportunity cost of running Gravity and Dragon Rush over Dragon Claw and any other utility option would be too great to use.

Utility Attacks

Poison Jab has no reason to be clicked on Clefable or Kerf because Flare Blitz does more and even without it, the worst Fire Lash can do assuming the lowest roll possible against Clefable is a 44% chance to OHKO. While Poison Touch as an ability to have a chance to poison things without consuming a moveslot was good, I feel Poison Jab would be too much of an opportunity cost against other options to warrant addition. This is one I am willing to change my mind over.

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery [After dealing 148 HP of damage, the lowest roll Fire Lash can produce]

Extreme Speed paired with Fire Lash would be way too offensive to warrant any support, and unlike something like Explosion, there is no real downside to using these two moves. You literally would never have to use a support move. You click Fire Lash and then Extreme Speed on anything that moves. Force Palm is too niche compared to other paralysis options, most notably Nuzzle for if you wanna run AV. Rapid Spin is the opposite problem, in which its presence would basically hog a utility slot all to itself forever and make it so other utility options do not get a chance to shine. Also, speed boosting probably isn't a good idea on something this fast and with likely access to Fire Lash.

Status Moves

Spikes suffers from the same issue as Rapid Spin in that it just would be always ran and nothing else would get to shine through. Life Dew is a bad move in singles. Encore just seems very obnoxious to deal with on something so fast and something that doesn't hit like a wet noodle like the other Encore users around. Glare just is too much to deal with in terms of balance, as we can use it to paralyze Ground-type checks/pressures like Hippowdon, Colossoil, and Excadrill, where as Thunder Wave and Nuzzle are less reliable to land and Nuzzle in particular would only see use on AV. I stand by my position on Wish being a bad idea for sinking momentum and working too well with Clefable, and Protect only is listed due to Wish. Magic Coat in terms of hazard blocking is strictly inferior to Taunt. Reflect and Light Screen can be debated but I do feel they also hog moveslots and hinder other support's chances of being used. Finally, while I suggested Sunny Day myself, I realize that Sun doesn't really need a secondary setter so it's not worth mentioning anymore.

Here is a cleaned up compilation for people to look at.

Moveset """Submission"""
Name: 2 STAB 2 Support [Compilation] (New and Improved!!!)
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash / Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Lava Plume
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Outrage
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Explosion / Trick / Bulldoze / Solar Beam / Memento
Move 4: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Explosion / Trick / Bulldoze / Solar Beam / Memento
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

 

[G-Luke]

Moveset Submission

Name: Disable Tech
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Disable
Move 4: Substitute / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Fire Lash is the preferred move, as dropping defenses of opposing Pokemon allow you to force out more combatants and gives you more opportunities to get up a Substitute. Flare Blitz on Encore based sets can be optional to provide more power behind its attacks to maintain offensive presense.
• Dragon Claw is generic Dragon STAB that allows it to hit Fire type resists like Terrakion and Krilowatt for neutral damage, and hit dragon types like Cyclohm, Hydreigon and Kommo-O for supereffective damage.
• Disable is the crux of this set, as with CAP 27's decent bulk, high speed and modest defensive typing, we can get several oppurtunities to get off a Disable on more passive threats.
• Substitute is the generally preferred option, giving us protection from Toxic and potential paralysis, while not only guaranteeing we can stay in a turn on forced switches to annoy the opponent, but using pokemon like Toxapex as fodder. Encore can also be used, especially against set up attackers, as we generally outpace numerous of them with our great 114 Speed stat, then forcing them to switch out or struggle with a potential Disable.

I am of the general opinion that generic hazard control isn't something that this CAP should be leaning towards, and that status infliction (done by several submissions already) and disruption tactics should be the main ways we go with this CAP. That being said, there is one, less generic hazard I wish we consider giving CAP 27.

Moveset Submission

Name: Non Snael Webs Lead
Move 1: Sticky Web
Move 2: Taunt
Move 3: Fire Lash
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Memento
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Sticky Web is a currently unexplored hazard in the SS CAP metagame, and slowing down all non grounded members of the opposing team is an excellent form of support, particularly Speed Control.
• Taunt not only denies the opposing team the chance to get up hazards, but stops defoggers from trying to clear away our webs as well. With our speed tier, this should generally not be a problem for CAP 27 to accomplish.
• Fire Lash is an excellent spammable STAB option that should be run on all sets tbh.
• Dragon Claw gives us insurace versus SR Kommo-O, while Memento is great for supporting set up sweepers on our team by giving them a safety net to start setting up.
• Focus Sash ensures that we can near guarantee getting up Webs versus the opposing team, or at least deny hazards / hazard removal. With how Regenerator interacts with Focus Sash, a skillful player may even win the hazard matchup versus Excadrill. (Big If though)

I would also like to throw in my hat in the ring to support Heat Crash. I understand how this move may give bias towards certain Art designs, but with how art is leaning in art polls, nothing looks particularly heavy anyways. i would like the mid ground approach that quziel suggests, and even if not mandatory, i do not think it should be banned outright. (Flare Blitz can't be done on my Sticky web set for example).

 

[Hematite]

I'm inclined to second the idea that ExtremeSpeed feels like a bad idea - in addition to pairing too well with Fire Lash, it also doesn't feel pro-concept to me.
The set that specifically proposed the move, "Priority Pressure," justified itself as a way to make CAP27 offensive, and - while I respect that the concept is "offensive support" and not just "support" - the actual move choices there seemed like a perfect example of leaning too far into offense.
While the fourth move of the set technically leaves room to run Taunt and Will-o-Wisp, Dragon Claw was highlighted as another viable option, and I actually don't think a set of Fire Lash/Extreme Speed/Knock Off/Dragon Claw sounds like offensive support at all - the only remotely utility-oriented move on it is Knock Off, and even that was cited as being so CAP27 could damage certain Pokémon that could wall it, not actually for its utility.
I'm kinda new here and might be wrong in this assessment, but it definitely seems anti-concept to me.

For what it's worth, I think CAP27 would have to get Sunny Day either way simply because I believe it's a near-universal move among Fire-types for some reason, a small handful from VII and VIII don't - the Oricorio, Salandit and Rolycoly lines - so it could be argued if someone really wants to forbid the move, but they're the only exceptions as far as I can tell, and it seems like Oricorio and Coalossal in particular are both very specific cases because of their signature moves and Abilities rather than a statement of some kind, but I also agree that it's highly unlikely to be a relevant option and don't really think it's worth considering as a serious part of the movepool.

Also, I understand that the competitive side is important and may be a priority, but I have to disagree strongly that allowing Heat Crash won't affect the art polls. The design submitted by Quanyails, for example, won first place in the original poll, so it's clearly popular and something people would like at this stage of the process - but it's also easily one of the lightest-looking entries and looks like it would have a very hard time justifying Heat Crash, especially contrasted with heavier-looking entries like those of Roland le Preaux and Pipotchi. I definitely think allowing Heat Crash when such a wide range of designs are still on the table would be an unwise decision, and I think the idea of messing with flavor and size later on to try to force it is also an ineffective solution, especially when some artists have submitted size charts and others have not.

Edit: that aside, I definitely agree with G-Luke's argument below on why Memento is still a potentially interesting choice! That's pretty much the only one of the proposed removals I don't support right now.
I don't think Bulldoze and Solar Beam are worthless, but I agree that they're pretty specialized and not broadly useful, and I think Memento's niche is certainly worth having (or at least worth discussing further and not dismissing, while I agree with most of the other moves you opted to take off)!

 

[Roland le preaux]

Name: 2 STAB 2 Support [Compilation] (New and Improved!!!)
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash / Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Lava Plume
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Outrage
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Explosion / Trick / Bulldoze / Solar Beam
Move 4: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Explosion / Trick / Bulldoze / Solar Beam

I agree almost entirely with this list! My only exception is that I like Encore. A lot of people have submitted it and I think it is a viable alternative to Taunt that will help CAP27 find its way onto more teams as a stallbreaker or balance breaker. That being said...

Name: Disable Tech
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Disable
Move 4: Substitute / Encore

I think Encore + Disable is pretty toxic on any fast mon, and I would oppose getting Disable if we get Encore, or vice-versa. Between the two, I prefer Encore. I think it's more useful in more situations, letting us force out Calm Mind sweepers, Defoggers, and hazard setters if we catch them in time.

 

[G-Luke]

Because I wanna give feedback to moves to help discussion but I am frankly too lazy to analyze each set individually, I'm gonna use this post to cut down on moves I feel we just do not need.
I'm gonna split the moves I feel are not needed into categories for ease of reading.

Dragon STAB

Dual chop is objectively weaker than Dragon Claw with the only differences being able to break sashes and being less accurate. Barely anything runs Focus Sash at the moment so this niche is basically moot. No reason to give it here. Dragon Rush is stronger but super innacurate, and do not tell me Gravity would be a viable set for Dragon Rush because the opportunity cost of running Gravity and Dragon Rush over Dragon Claw and any other utility option would be too great to use.

Utility Attacks

Poison Jab has no reason to be clicked on Clefable or Kerf because Flare Blitz does more and even without it, the worst Fire Lash can do assuming the lowest roll possible against Clefable is a 44% chance to OHKO. While Poison Touch as an ability to have a chance to poison things without consuming a moveslot was good, I feel Poison Jab would be too much of an opportunity cost against other options to warrant addition. This is one I am willing to change my mind over.

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery [After dealing 148 HP of damage, the lowest roll Fire Lash can produce]

Extreme Speed paired with Fire Lash would be way too offensive to warrant any support, and unlike something like Explosion, there is no real downside to using these two moves. You literally would never have to use a support move. You click Fire Lash and then Extreme Speed on anything that moves. Force Palm is too niche compared to other paralysis options, most notably Nuzzle for if you wanna run AV. Rapid Spin is the opposite problem, in which its presence would basically hog a utility slot all to itself forever and make it so other utility options do not get a chance to shine. Also, speed boosting probably isn't a good idea on something this fast and with likely access to Fire Lash.

Status Moves

Memento is one to debate but the effect is generally inferior to Healing Wish so we don't need it. Spikes suffers from the same issue as Rapid Spin in that it just would be always ran and nothing else would get to shine through. Life Dew is a bad move in singles. Encore just seems very obnoxious to deal with on something so fast and something that doesn't hit like a wet noodle like the other Encore users around. Glare just is too much to deal with in terms of balance, as we can use it to paralyze Ground-type checks/pressures like Hippowdon, Colossoil, and Excadrill, where as Thunder Wave and Nuzzle are less reliable to land and Nuzzle in particular would only see use on AV. I stand by my position on Wish being a bad idea for sinking momentum and working too well with Clefable, and Protect only is listed due to Wish. Magic Coat in terms of hazard blocking is strictly inferior to Taunt. Reflect and Light Screen can be debated but I do feel they also hog moveslots and hinder other support's chances of being used. Finally, while I suggested Sunny Day myself, I realize that Sun doesn't really need a secondary setter so it's not worth mentioning anymore.

Here is a cleaned up compilation for people to look at.

Moveset """Submission"""
Name: 2 STAB 2 Support [Compilation] (New and Improved!!!)
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash / Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Lava Plume
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Outrage
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Explosion / Trick / Bulldoze / Solar Beam
Move 4: Will-O-Wisp / (Thunder Wave | Nuzzle) / Healing Wish / Taunt / Knock Off / Heal Bell / Explosion / Trick / Bulldoze / Solar Beam
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

What makes the likes of Memento less useful than Solar Beam and Bulldoze? Solar Beam is a near flavour move at best, since it either mandates CAP 27 be ran paired with Sun support, waste a slot on sunny day or run the eh Power Herb item. If this was Generation 7 where the option of Grassium z to beef up its power, make it one time usage and operate as a true luring option. I do not think CAP 27 has the raw attacking power to amke a Power Herb Solar Beam set worth it either, as more powerful Fire types in standard just frown upon it. In regards to Bulldoze, a non STAB 60 BP stat debuffing move seems like a waste to run instead of other more useful options, as a speed drop can be solved by switching, and the damage dealt is usually not that impactful (I would sooner run Thunder Wave for speed control). Healing Wish is overall superior over Memento, but I think its differences can be seen to be more useful on more niche sets. Suicide lead sets for example would much rather run Memento over Healing Wish, as since it usually dies early game, a lead won't be healing much of anything.

 

[Reviloja753]

What makes the likes of Memento less useful than Solar Beam and Bulldoze? Solar Beam is a near flavour move at best, since it either mandates CAP 27 be ran paired with Sun support, waste a slot on sunny day or run the eh Power Herb item. If this was Generation 7 where the option of Grassium z to beef up its power, make it one time usage and operate as a true luring option. I do not think CAP 27 has the raw attacking power to amke a Power Herb Solar Beam set worth it either, as more powerful Fire types in standard just frown upon it. In regards to Bulldoze, a non STAB 60 BP stat debuffing move seems like a waste to run instead of other more useful options, as a speed drop can be solved by switching, and the damage dealt is usually not that impactful (I would sooner run Thunder Wave for speed control). Healing Wish is overall superior over Memento, but I think its differences can be seen to be more useful on more niche sets. Suicide lead sets for example would much rather run Memento over Healing Wish, as since it usually dies early game, a lead won't be healing much of anything.

Your point on Memento makes total sense. I wasn't really thinking about that all too much when I made my post, but you're right in that it has a place for a suicide lead. I will say Bulldoze's main niche is to be a simple way to kill Mollux in two hits, though, so it's not as much about the speed control. Solar Beam is admittedly a niche lure to Seismitoad, but I do feel it's worth its place. Sorry about that!

252 Atk Turtonator Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 272-320 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Great sets so far, but I think we need to trim some fat first. And to start with that, we really gotta talk about Fire Lash.

Probably its biggest boon is its winning matchup with Clefable, as its able to actively pressure and beat it as long as CAP27 isn't switching in on a Moonblast. I debate however the necessity of this when there are very valid concerns about how these defense drops affect our other Pokemon on the checks and counters due to the defense drop, as well as the possibility from some about creating purely offensive sets with it alongside our other STABs and Knock Off.

I'm going to be straight with you: this move has been very hard for me to make a decision on and I do think this decision is best left in the hands of the community itself. Mods, I would like to take Fire Lash to the poll for its decision.

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Spikes Support
Move 1: Spikes
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Taunt / Encore / Will-o-wisp / Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Focus Sash
EVs: 252atk/4def/252spe
Nature: Jolly

• Spikes is the crux of this set, allowing us to turn the momentum we generate into excellent passive damage for our team.
• Dual physical stabs allow us to hit hard and generate the offensive pressure necessary to set hazards. Dragon Claw is our only real usable physical damage option here, as we never want to be locked into such an exploitable move that lacks real notable KOs for us. The choice of fire stab really comes down to preference, with Flare Blitz hitting hard right off the bat at the cost of recoil damage and Fire Lash allowing us to beat some defensive mons we otherwise wouldn't be able to muscle through.
• The last slot is very versatile, we have a lot of options here that do very different things. Taunt and Encore both let us exploit slower mons in different ways, with Taunt being more generically "good" against defensive mons and lead-style sets and Encore being situationally more powerful and allowing us to lock slower setup mons into their setup moves (if we can come in on a predicted setup). Will-o-wisp lets us cripple physical attackers and bulky grounds that try to come in on our hazards. Finally, Healing Wish is an option that fits our offensive-leaning nature while also letting us stop a Rapid Spin in a pinch (though Explosion would arguably be better for this task).
• Heavy-Duty boots is our item of choice to give us more opportunities to set up spikes throughout the match, but Focus Sash is an option for a more lead-oriented setup, like on a HO team.

This isn't the only Spikes set, but it is the first so I will be addressing Spikes here. I initially was alright with the idea of Spikes as possible team support, but the more I look at this set the more I think about how good Spikes on CAP really would be. You mention earlier in the post that CAP27's biggest point in difference to Syclant and Greninja is a lack of U-turn, however with Regenerator the prospect of a hard switch is much less of an issue.
With that in mind, I feel like there is very little reason to not be running Spikes on every set you can for CAP27, as setting that hazard is such a good supportive option. The number of sets submitted with Spikes as well is in support of this. While I don't think this overly oppressive as Roland mentions and it is technically in line with concept, I think earlier discussion made it very clear that we do not have the desire to give CAP hazards as an easy out for this concept. Discussion indicates we would rather delve into more interesting utility options to fulfill that supportive aspect of CAP.

I feel like Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes have a very similar issue, even if they have not been mentioned in sets yet. Sticky Web I'll get to at a later date, but for those who have it on a set, I would like justification on how it will not fall into the same as the three former. For now, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes are disallowed.

Moveset Submission

Name: Drop this sh*t OFF!!
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Glare / Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Fire Lash because 100% Defense drop is always helpful.
• Dragon Claw as secondary STAB.
• Knock Off to remove items and possibly cripple the enemy pokémon.
• Glare, WoW and TWave as a secondary utility option and to cripple the enemy pokémon even more.
• Boots to avoid hazards damage.
• 252 Atk EVs to maximize the damage output, 224 Spe EVs + Jolly nature to outspeed full invested 110 base Speed pokémon.

Overall this set is fine, really focuses on the fact of getting that status off while supporting with Knock Off and Fire Lash. Biggest problem moves wise is probably Glare. I feel its overlap with Thunder Wave is pretty clear, and I have seen people very hesitant about paralysis spreading in general. Glare compounds this with 100% accuracy and bypassing the Ground-types who block Thunder Wave. I feel like this pushes Glare over the edge, and even before that is overly redundant with Thunder Wave. I think its fairly safe to say Glare is disallowed.

Name: Offensive Balance Breaker

Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Fire Lash
Move 4: Poison Jab/ Will-O-Wisp/ Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 speed/ 200 Atk/ 56 HP

-Fire Lash as its go-to stab move, that cripples physical walls and disturbs balance
-Knock Off to cripple pokemon that are heavily reliant on items
-Taunt to cripple walls and defensive utility based mons like Clefable or Toxapex
-Poison Jab/ Will-O-Wisp/ Thunder Wave to spread status, with the bonus of Poison Jab being weak coverage for fairies
-HD Boots to minimize chip damage, as this mon will be switching in and out a lot

Poison Coverage is no bueno, as it lets us deal with most importantly Primarina, which is a type counter. And if a piece of coverage lets us beat or threaten a category of Pokemon that puts a lot of pressure on us, I have a very hard time not seeing it run a bunch, putting more strain on our support options. Disallowing Poison-type Coverage above 60 BP.

I am still unsure on Steel-type coverage, particularly Iron Head, as I think not beating Primarina is automatically less horrible than Poison, but it still beats a few notable Fairies and does hit Terrakion super effectively. I think it needs discussion.

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: Aromatherapy / Protect
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

As one of the only people that seems to be advocating for Wish I thought I would propose this spicy set. While Wish is normally only run with Protect, I believe CAP 27's strong offenses and ability to force switches can allow for Wish or Aromatherapy to be used on the switch before swapping out again to heal up the team without the need to actually run protect. Fire Lash and Dragon Claw achieve basically everything we need offensively and subsequently can still be clicked easily. While this may not look the most pro-momentum set, the switches that CAP 27 can force, and Regenerator itself, allow for Aromatherapy and Wish to be used without completely dropping momentum. In addition, Fire Lash is an incredibly clickable move that can mess with opponents that predict an Aromatherapy or Wish. 224 Speed EVs is ideally what I think most CAP 27 should be running (unless we want to outspeed eachother) because there's nothing between 110 and our speed tier at this stage. In comparison to moves such as Knock Off, Taunt and Status, the two utility moves here are designed to support team mates by giving them more survivability, and the ability to keep pushing through opposing Pokemon that CAP 27 cannot handle. Protect is of course an option over Aromatherapy should status not be a concern.

Wish on paper is great for this concept, offering a support move it can pass to teammates for their benefit. However, many, many people have mentioned that Wish will most likely be a drag to momentum with combining into the usual Wish+Protect strategy we see from almost all Wish passers. I am currently very much inclined to agree, as I think the cost-benefit of clicking Protect after Wish is still very high since clicking it is like a free 50% recovery, which are similar to moves I have disallowed. The argument above is probably the best defense I have seen of the move, but it still has holes, especially in mention of Fire Lash, which I think tells more of how good Fire Lash is than how Wish will not lose momentum. Even if we have Regenerator, there is still absolutely a reason to run a healing move alongside it as shown by Toxapex, because more healing is better than less healing in a lot of cases.
It is certainly true that CAP27 shares no analog as a mon who is fast, has Regenerator, and can pass Wishes, but I think there is not enough evidence to suggest that CAP will not run the same pairings that almost every other Wish passer has run since its inception, especially considering how balanced focused our current metagame is. No evidence from the appealing side has really been able to go against the clear distaste of Wish, and I think that speaks for itself. I am disallowing Wish.

That's all I want to cover for the moment, but I will most likely start approving sets once Fire Lash is fully decided.

 

[Mowtom]

Why are we assuming CAP27 will get Knock Off? I get that Knock Off is the ultimate move for being offensive while also having a supportive effect, but I think that its inclusion is pushing other moves that would be more interesting to explore off the table.

For instance, LoL just said "I debate however the necessity of this when there are very valid concerns about how these defense drops affect our other Pokemon on the checks and counters due to the defense drop, as well as the possibility from some about creating purely offensive sets with it alongside our other STABs and Knock Off." If Knock Off+Fire Lash together is problematic for being too much, why is it Fire Lash that has to go? Fire Lash is a move that's never had a viable user before, while we know exactly what a fast attacker with Knock Off looks like because there have always been plenty of those.

Essentially, if we can't cripple our checks/counters by removing their items, there is a lot more freedom for defense drops or paralysis or other things that would otherwise do too well against them. Thus I think we should put serious consideration into temporarily disallowing Knock Off in favor of other moves.

What if we agreed that Knock Off would be illegal in tandem with some combination of other moves, and then took that to the poll? Have the community vote on whether it would be better to have Knock Off or Fire Lash+whatever else.

 

[quziel]

disallowing Knock Off

Far as I can tell based on calcs it ain't Knock off that Fire Lash is affecting, but Flare Blitz and Dragon Claw; Knock off was just included on a few sets demonstrating Fire Lash's power because its generally good, subbing it out for Willowisp wouldn't really make the set that much more supportive, nor would it really weaken the set in any meaningful way. If ya look at our checks and counters you'll see Hippowdon and Tomohawk which both run Rocky Helmet atm, and thus don't hugely care about being Knocked off, at least far less than mons that have Leftovers.

 

[Yay61]

I was about to make a post in favour of fire lash, but after looking at the calcs I definitely do not want it any more. Firstly, fire lash has few actual benefits for the concept. The defense drop isn’t going to be used by teammates, as the opponent would switch out regardless. The only use that seems to be desired (correct me if I’m wrong) is breaking clefable easier. But fire lash steers cap 27 far too hard into breaker territory with very few actual checks. Tomohawk can 2HKO with an aura sphere into a hurricane (which needs to hit in order to win) while three fire lashes will do 82.7 to 97.9% to Tomohawk, winning after minuscule chip. But, even if worse is two fire lashes into a flare blitz which is a guaranteed ko on tomohawk before it can get off a second hit. Now, if tomohawk has rocky helmet cap 27 will also faint in the process but this is not even going to be the case. Tomohawk almost always loses its item, especially as it is the one actual check to Conkeldurr which will use knock off the first time it switches in. With fire lash, cap27 reliably beats tomohawk letting everything checked by it like Conkeldurr and terrakion reign free.

Another of cap27’s most widespread counters is Toxapex, which can win with haze. However, this neglects to take into account any of encore, taunt, trick, or even thunder wave which are key to the support part of the concept. Any of these options allow cap27 to break through both tomohawk and toxapex, two of the best defensive walls in the metagame as well as crippling any other switch ins and dealing heavy damage. In short, fire lash leaves this pokemon with few checks that can stand up to it and encourages it to just spam it to break through anything slower than it rather than actually utilise support options for its team.

Tomohawk and Toxapex can switch around in attempt to beat it by getting rid of the defensive drops and either reactivate intimidate and regenerator, however very few other pokemon want to switch into cap27’s powerful stab combo, and all this switching should not be required for the two best defensive pokemon to beat a support oriented pokemon without a single supereffective move.

-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 76-91 (18.3 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 114-135 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -2 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 153-180 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252 Atk Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. -2 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 228-268 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Roland le preaux]

I was about to make a post in favour of fire lash, but after looking at the calcs I definitely do not want it any more. Firstly, fire lash has few actual benefits for the concept. The defense drop isn’t going to be used by teammates, as the opponent would switch out regardless. The only use that seems to be desired (correct me if I’m wrong) is breaking clefable easier. But fire lash steers cap 27 far too hard into breaker territory with very few actual checks. Tomohawk can 2HKO with an aura sphere into a hurricane (which needs to hit in order to win) while three fire lashes will do 82.7 to 97.9% to Tomohawk, winning after minuscule chip. But, even if worse is two fire lashes into a flare blitz which is a guaranteed ko on tomohawk before it can get off a second hit. Now, if tomohawk has rocky helmet cap 27 will also faint in the process but this is not even going to be the case. Tomohawk almost always loses its item, especially as it is the one actual check to Conkeldurr which will use knock off the first time it switches in. With fire lash, cap27 reliably beats tomohawk letting everything checked by it like Conkeldurr and terrakion reign free.

Another of cap27’s most widespread counters is Toxapex, which can win with haze. However, this neglects to take into account any of encore, taunt, trick, or even thunder wave which are key to the support part of the concept. Any of these options allow cap27 to break through both tomohawk and toxapex, two of the best defensive walls in the metagame as well as crippling any other switch ins and dealing heavy damage. In short, fire lash leaves this pokemon with few checks that can stand up to it and encourages it to just spam it to break through anything slower than it rather than actually utilise support options for its team.

Tomohawk and Toxapex can switch around in attempt to beat it by getting rid of the defensive drops and either reactivate intimidate and regenerator, however very few other pokemon want to switch into cap27’s powerful stab combo, and all this switching should not be required for the two best defensive pokemon to beat a support oriented pokemon without a single supereffective move.

-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 76-91 (18.3 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 114-135 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -2 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 153-180 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252 Atk Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. -2 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 228-268 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I appreciate your post on the topic, but I respectfully disagree that Fire Lash is an overpowering move on CAP 27. The fact of the matter is that Tomo is not 3HKOd by Fire Lash, and that running two Fire-type moves has a huge opportunity cost that leaves us unable to break Toxapex and many other bulky waters. Additionally, running Flare Blitz and fainting in order to take down Tomohawk seems rather pro-concept for a mon we are talking about giving Explosion to.

Even with Fire Lash, there are a host of mons that switch into us and outdamage us. Hippowdon, Arghonaut, and Seismitoad all switch into Fire Lash plus a couple of Dragon Claws (which deals more damage than a couple of Fire Lashes and one Dragon Claw) and always avoid the 3HKO while easily 2HKOing us in return with Earthquake and Earth Power. Arghonaut in particular does this with quite a bit of health left over.

Toxapex can also switch in and beat this strategy completely with Haze, only suffering against CAP 27 if it's running both Fire Lash and Taunt, which doesn't leave room for both Flare Blitz and Knock Off. Even then, once it's taunted the Pex can just switch out to regain health and reset its Defense stat.

Meanwhile there are several *offensive* mons that also counter this set by switching into Fire Lash + Dragon Claw (or two Dragon Claws, for that matter) and OHKOing us in return. Tyrantitar and Terrakion are two standouts in this regard, while Stratagem can switch into Fire Lash multiple times and threaten to outspeed us and OHKO.

Calcs for Fire Lash + Dragon Claw shenanigans

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 75-88 (17.8 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 111-132 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- 16% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 148-175 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 80% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
20.9 + 31.4 + 41.6 - 18.0 = 75% damage in 3 turns, not a 3HKO (even with a fair amount of chip)

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 50-59 (12 - 14.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 150-177 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
14.2 + 42.7 + 42.7 - 18.0 = 81.6% damage in 3 turns, not a 3HKO (even with a fair amount of chip)

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 42-51 (10.1 - 12.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 129-153 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
12.3 + 36.9 + 36.9 - 18.0 = 68.1% damage in 3 turns, which is nowhere close to a 3HKO

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 30-36 (9.8 - 11.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 93-109 (30.5 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
11.8 + 35.8 +35.8 - 18.0 = 65.4% damage in 3 turns, which is nowhere close to a 3HKO

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 53-63 (15.5 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
18.4 + 55.4 = 73.8 damage in 2 turns, not a 2HKO

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 63-74 (19.5 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 189-223 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
22.9 + 69 = 91.9 damage in 2 turns, not a 2HKO

(I did not even mention the bulky Scarf dragons like Hydreigon and Dracovish that can switch into any of our physical moves and OHKO us in return)

The fact of the matter is, if we aren't passing Wish to our allies, and we aren't laying hazards, and we aren't setting up to sweep, we need to be exerting some kind of pressure when we switch in. Being a balance breaker and stall breaker is a healthy way to realize that goal, and it by definition requires us to beat a few defensive mons, especially the oppressive S tier force that is Clefable. The only way to do that is with Fire Lash.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I appreciate your post on the topic, but I respectfully disagree that Fire Lash is an overpowering move on CAP 27. The fact of the matter is that Tomo is not 3HKOd by Fire Lash, and that running two Fire-type moves has a huge opportunity cost that leaves us unable to break Toxapex and many other bulky waters. Additionally, running Flare Blitz and fainting in order to take down Tomohawk seems rather pro-concept for a mon we are talking about giving Explosion to.

Even with Fire Lash, there are a host of mons that switch into us and outdamage us. Hippowdon, Arghonaut, and Seismitoad all switch into Fire Lash plus a couple of Dragon Claws (which deals more damage than a couple of Fire Lashes and one Dragon Claw) and always avoid the 3HKO while easily 2HKOing us in return with Earthquake and Earth Power. Arghonaut in particular does this with quite a bit of health left over.

Toxapex can also switch in and beat this strategy completely with Haze, only suffering against CAP 27 if it's running both Fire Lash and Taunt, which doesn't leave room for both Flare Blitz and Knock Off. Even then, once it's taunted the Pex can just switch out to regain health and reset its Defense stat.

Meanwhile there are several *offensive* mons that also counter this set by switching into Fire Lash + Dragon Claw (or two Dragon Claws, for that matter) and OHKOing us in return. Tyrantitar and Terrakion are two standouts in this regard, while Stratagem can switch into Fire Lash multiple times and threaten to outspeed us and OHKO.

Calcs for Fire Lash + Dragon Claw shenanigans

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 75-88 (17.8 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 111-132 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- 16% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 148-175 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 80% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
20.9 + 31.4 + 41.6 - 18.0 = 75% damage in 3 turns, not a 3HKO (even with a fair amount of chip)

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 50-59 (12 - 14.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 150-177 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
14.2 + 42.7 + 42.7 - 18.0 = 81.6% damage in 3 turns, not a 3HKO (even with a fair amount of chip)

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 42-51 (10.1 - 12.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 129-153 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
12.3 + 36.9 + 36.9 - 18.0 = 68.1% damage in 3 turns, which is nowhere close to a 3HKO

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 30-36 (9.8 - 11.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 93-109 (30.5 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
11.8 + 35.8 +35.8 - 18.0 = 65.4% damage in 3 turns, which is nowhere close to a 3HKO

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 53-63 (15.5 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
18.4 + 55.4 = 73.8 damage in 2 turns, not a 2HKO

252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 63-74 (19.5 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 189-223 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
22.9 + 69 = 91.9 damage in 2 turns, not a 2HKO

(I did not even mention the bulky Scarf dragons like Hydreigon and Dracovish that can switch into any of our physical moves and OHKO us in return)

The fact of the matter is, if we aren't passing Wish to our allies, and we aren't laying hazards, and we aren't setting up to sweep, we need to be exerting some kind of pressure when we switch in. Being a balance breaker and stall breaker is a healthy way to realize that goal, and it by definition requires us to beat a few defensive mons, especially the oppressive S tier force that is Clefable. The only way to do that is with Fire Lash.

You've hit the nail on the head for me Roland! I absolutely agree with each of your points. The fact that Wish has been dropped now I think means we are risking not having a niche that isn't being purely offense. Fire lash achieves so much slot compression that we can more easily run our two support moves.