Announcement National Dex Suspect 4: Dirty Computer [Mega Metagross]

[Guard]

​

The National Dex Council has decided to suspect test Mega Metagross. Mega Metagross has proven to be the premier wallbreaker in the metagame from the very beginning due to its great Attack stat in conjunction with a potent ability alongside the STAB and coverage options to make full use of it. Adding insult to injury, Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, and Thunder Punch come with an additional chance to raise Attack, flinch the target, and paralyze respectively, greatly bolstering Mega Metagross’s chances of breaking through its checks such as Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Slowbro, and Corviknight. Moreover, the fact that Mega Metagross forces plenty of switches, as well as its good bulk which grants it multiple opportunities to switch in against the likes of Tornadus-T and Clefable, gives it an ample amount of opportunities to fish for these scenario’s, with Rocky Helmet users, defensive Volcarona, and Zapdos being the only somewhat viable options that are able to punish these attempts. These traits innately result into the fact that Mega Metagross is a very hard Pokemon to check defensively, which strains the teambuilder to an unhealthy extent. Furthermore, offensively checking Mega Metagross is a hard feat to accomplish as well, courtesy of its stellar bulk which allows it to survive Galarian Darmanitan’s Earthquake, Scarf Hydreigon’s Dark Pulse, and Mega Alakazam’s Shadow Ball among other hits, and, to a lesser extent, its access to a strong priority move in Bullet Punch. All in all, the council recognizes the unhealthy strain Mega Metagross puts on the teambuilder, limiting counterplay to other prominent threats, and deems a suspect test appropriate and necessary.

Suspect Information:

• Mega Metagross will be allowed on the ladder. The suspect will last for approximately 2 weeks, meaning that it will end on May 20th at 11:59pm EST.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NXMETA.
  • For example, I might signup with the ladder account NXMETA Guard.
• Reqs can be achieved by getting 80 GXE with 35 or more games on the National Dex OU ladder.
• Once you achieve reqs, post the requirements in the voter identification thread (a screenshot of the accounts GXE and amount of ladder games with proof of account ownership). The actual voting will be taking place in a separate thread, therefore it is not required to post your votes in here.
• A ban vote of 60% majority will be required to ban Mega Metagross.
• Remember to keep discussion civil and stay on topic! Posts will be moderated heavily here so please try to follow the guidelines in order to avoid post deletion or possible infraction.

Tagging The Immortal Kris to get the suspect up and the announcement on ladder games. Thank you in advance!

 

[lydian]

Good user lyd coming in with the superior song choice (as usual (DROELOE is awesome listen to this, you're gonna like it, for real)).

But okay, my thoughts on Mega Metagross is that it just lacks enough defensive counterplay. We got Corviknight this gen, which surely helps, but you kind of need Rocky Helmet otherwise Mega Metagross just sits there and walls Corviknight until it gets a Para or a Mash boost. Body Press is doing laughable damage, and by U-turning Corviknight literally puts itself in range to be 2HKO'ed next time. Not the best of checks. Tangrowth can chip Meta Metagross down with Rocky Helmet, which goes a long way, but even then the rarer Ice Punch variant can be a bit of a problem if the Metagross player fodders something to Sleep, that way most Tangrowths can't do much back to Mega Metagross except chip it with Helmet. Normal Slowbro has also been getting some traction, but it takes a tad much from Thunder Punch to be a reliable check. Melmetal has been seeing some usage as well, but that needs Wish support to properly check Mega Metagross, making it even bigger of a strain on building. That leaves us with Mega Slowbro and Mega Scizor as the only real two surefire checks. That's a really small pool. Granted, you can pivot around Mega Metagross, and it can only run so many coverage moves, but it's still a Pokémon that gets countless opportunities to come in, thanks to its stellar bulk and typing, so occasionally it's just gonna get a Mash boost and its game over. Speaking of its bulk, that also makes it really hard to offensively check. If I'm not mistaken, the only viable Pokémon that can outspeed and OHKO are Choice Scarf Darmanitan, Ash-Greninja, and, god forbid, Choice Specs Dragapult, and you still have to risk Bullet Punch, which, imo, is quite slept on. Choice Scarf Landorus-T does quite a chunk if it's offensive but even then it can shrug off a hit pretty easily if need be. This Pokémon's absurd bulk, solid speed tier, and monstrous power makes it a tad too hard to check both defensively and offensively. I'd argue Unga Bunga is definitely a bit more of a problem than Mega Metagross, but Mega Metagross is still a massive headache for building and for playing, and I personally I would ban it if I were to ladder. Sadly, I hate to ladder, and Nat Dex ladder makes me wanna puke, so I probably won't ladder and I'll just be armchairing here and confirming your suspicion that I wrote this post just so that I can post a better NP music without it being a one-liner. Those are just my 2 cents though, would love to hear what everyone else thinks, peace!

 

[xdfty]

My biggest issue with megameta is it's amazing stats. It has amazing attack, bulk and enough speed to outspeed most pokemon that can kill it. It has lots of coverage that make use of its huge attack. Defensive mons like tang, Toxapex and Slobro can't do nearly enough damage to it, and paired with it's toxic immunity, it is nearly impossible to stall it out. if you don't have a pokemon that can beat it, than it will destroy your team.

 

[Gadget]

Im very mixed on this suspect. I never feel like Mega Metagross limits building when making offensive teams, but the more i look at it, the better MegaGross Gets. I Think what puts it over the edge is its insane bulk for how offensive it is. You think a spdef heatran can switch in ? nope, 2hkoed by hammer arm and cant even ohko back with a lava plume, forcing it to use magma storm if it wants to even think about checking heatran. Want to revenge metagross with your greninja specs non ash greninja? guess what, your not even guarenteed to kill with dark pulse, and tpunch revenges, not to mention a bevy of resists it gets just for being steel type. This thing just feels like USUM Zygarde

 

[franCHISE_RK]

I personally am firmly against a Metagross Ban as I don't think it is overpowered to the extent that it is ban worth in this metagame. In terms of walling metagross's coverage, there are plenty of different pokemon that can always avoid a 3 hit KO no matter what the metagross's set is, examples being Mega Scizor, Skarmoy and Helmet Tangrowth just to name a few. These are all pokemon that can fit onto multiple different styles of teams and can also check many other physical attackers as well. On top of these, there are also tons of other pokemon that can wall metagross if it is lacking a certain move. Slowbro, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Starmie, Corviknight, Landorus, celebi and Hippowdon. Many of these pokemon are able to pivot into Metagross and generate momentum for their teammates, while not only being able to fit on many teams, but are able to check many other threats in the meta. Finally, Metagross, while 350 speed is good, it is still outpaced by many other pokemon in the meta game. If a player is playing against Metagross, you can pivot into its coverage moves, scout it using protect, chip down with rocks and rocky helmet. This can put it in range of many revenge killing moves such as ash-greninja dark pulse, scarf landorus earthquake and sucker punch. Metagross can also be trapped by pursuit and magnezone.

I disagree that metagross limit team building to the extent that it is overcentralizing. It's not Medicham or Dracovish where you can just click a stab move and ohko the opponent. Meteor mash isn't fishous rend or HJK. Metagross is just a solid mega in the metagame. Imo, it isn't even the best mega in the game honestly, I prefer Scizor to Metagross, but that's just me (maybe that's why I don't think metagross is broken) Metagross is not unhealthy for the game and I don't think it should be banned

 

[Robot7620]

I personally am firmly against a Metagross Ban as I don't think it is overpowered to the extent that it is ban worth in this metagame. In terms of walling metagross's coverage, there are plenty of different pokemon that can always avoid a 3 hit KO no matter what the metagross's set is, examples being Mega Scizor, Skarmoy and Helmet Tangrowth just to name a few. These are all pokemon that can fit onto multiple different styles of teams and can also check many other physical attackers as well. On top of these, there are also tons of other pokemon that can wall metagross if it is lacking a certain move. Slowbro, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Starmie, Corviknight, Landorus, celebi and Hippowdon. Many of these pokemon are able to pivot into Metagross and generate momentum for their teammates, while not only being able to fit on many teams, but are able to check many other threats in the meta. Finally, Metagross, while 350 speed is good, it is still outpaced by many other pokemon in the meta game. If a player is playing against Metagross, you can pivot into its coverage moves, scout it using protect, chip down with rocks and rocky helmet. This can put it in range of many revenge killing moves such as ash-greninja dark pulse, scarf landorus earthquake and sucker punch. Metagross can also be trapped by pursuit and magnezone.

I disagree that metagross limit team building to the extent that it is overcentralizing. It's not Medicham or Dracovish where you can just click a stab move and ohko the opponent. Meteor mash isn't fishous rend or HJK. Metagross is just a solid mega in the metagame. Imo, it isn't even the best mega in the game honestly, I prefer Scizor to Metagross, but that's just me (maybe that's why I don't think metagross is broken) Metagross is not unhealthy for the game and I don't think it should be banned

Yes, there are pokemon that can avoid a 3hko like mega scizor and mega slowbro, but the list just ends there. MGross can muscle past tang with a mash boost(which it will get eventually) and skarmory is barely relevant is this meta. Not only that, being forced to run mega scizor or mega slowbro on every team is just... not good.
Aditionally, slowbro can not check it properly as thunder punch is doing 46 and it is forced to spam slack off so either mgross will get a mash boost or get a paralyze. Celesteela is not even relevant ftr.
Ferrothorn lacks the recovery needed to check it long term and mgross could very easily carry hammer arm.
starmie is not relevant
corviknight is a good one, but as before, body press is doing pitiful damage and it will either get paralyzed or mgross will get a mash boost.
Lando can indeed soft check it, but it cannot switch in at all
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 151-178 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
And finally, celebi is not relevant and while hippo is a good point, as said before it just needs one mash boost.
Also if revenge killing is your only way of killing mgross, then your going to be playing a losing sacking game... which eventually results in your loss.
And mmedi is not the best atm nor is vish so idk why you brought that up.
Finally, i apologize for the messy formatting.
tl;dr if msciz and mbro are your only reliable answers its indeed very restricting as other semi-reliable answers can be muscled through w/ mash boost or a zen flinch.

 

[Marigold]

I can't believe I'm coming out of hiatus just to call out this broken mega that never gets quickbanned DESPITE us knowing what it'll do to a format every time. Anyway, I still remember how stupid most of the anti-ban arguments were the last time we had this suspect last gen. Let me just shut out as many of them as I can right now so we can save ourselves at least 20 pages of people jumping in with the exact same arguments as before.

It only has 4 moves to pick!

4MSS is only a detriment to a Pokémon if having four moves prevents it from fully performing its job. Megagross does not suffer from having four moveslots in this case, as having four appropriate different attacks is all it needs to be the fearsome wallbreaker it is. If a megagross forgoes ice punch for example, then the team it's on doesn't care much about those threats that Megagross doesn't cover or it handles that missing coverage more than sufficiently.

It has checks/counters!

So does every mon, even Primal fucking Groudon. So did Pheromosa, Genesect, Zygarde etc. It's never been about the presence of checks themselves, it's been about how limited they are, how obscure/specific they are, or how easy they are to circumvent. And it's really easy to abuse walls when they're forced to recover repeatedly, scout around, or be forced to use specific moves just to scratch Megagross.

It has no recovery!

90% of the banned offensive threats also have no recovery and it never stopped them, and Megagross has insane bulk to work with unlike most of them (we're talking higher bulk than Skarmory). Stuff like scarfed STAB users being unable to ohko Megagross is absolutely unholy and, in this aspect, is reminiscent to MegaMence/Zygarde being able to take non-banded STAB ice shards and uninvested ice beams.

Muh gen 6 mega slot syndrome!

Aside from this being an outdated and irrelevant issue when teambuilding for three years now, the main downside of most other megas in OU is that you can't run Megagross or a Megagross check/counter. Now THAT'S healthy metagame design amirite?

Just trap it!

I can't believe people think this is a viable strategy. Magnezone (which has to run a scarf set just to chip Megagross) and Tyranitar are both fucked by Earthquake. Weavile drops to the rising usage of Bullet Punch, and Pursuit Mega Scizor has to sacrifice its matchup spread vs the majority of the metagame JUST to hit Megagross (and like, Mega Zam?). Again, not exactly good metagame design.

Removing it would make the meta worse/make these pokemon broken!

Besides the absurdity of this idea, even if it were true it's not a viable antiban argument. We are here to determine if it is deserving of a ban in the current metagame, not whether or not the meta would be worse off without it.

Gonna start metagame studying get building now to hit reqs, and I encourage you all to do the same and vote BAN.

 

[franCHISE_RK]

Yes, there are pokemon that can avoid a 3hko like mega scizor and mega slowbro, but the list just ends there. MGross can muscle past tang with a mash boost(which it will get eventually) and skarmory is barely relevant is this meta. Not only that, being forced to run mega scizor or mega slowbro on every team is just... not good.
Aditionally, slowbro can not check it properly as thunder punch is doing 46 and it is forced to spam slack off so either mgross will get a mash boost or get a paralyze. Celesteela is not even relevant ftr.
Ferrothorn lacks the recovery needed to check it long term and mgross could very easily carry hammer arm.
starmie is not relevant
corviknight is a good one, but as before, body press is doing pitiful damage and it will either get paralyzed or mgross will get a mash boost.
Lando can indeed soft check it, but it cannot switch in at all
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 151-178 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
And finally, celebi is not relevant and while hippo is a good point, as said before it just needs one mash boost.
Also if revenge killing is your only way of killing mgross, then your going to be playing a losing sacking game... which eventually results in your loss.
And mmedi is not the best atm nor is vish so idk why you brought that up.
Finally, i apologize for the messy formatting.
tl;dr if msciz and mbro are your only reliable answers its indeed very restricting as other semi-reliable answers can be muscled through w/ mash boost or a zen flinch.

The thing is, you say these pokemon are relevant, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they are still capable of check Metagross. Personally, I'd argue that even though they aren't relevant, they could become relevant due to a need to check Metagross. I wasn't trying to name relevant meta pokemon, I was just naming some pokemon that could be checks to Metagross and pokemon like Celesteela and Celebi are capable of doing that. I also find it contradictory that you claim Metagross limits teambuilding, yet you also only talk about check it with relevant pokemon. Building teams in terms of relevant pokemon, in general, is more limiting than Metagross.

I brought up Medicham and Dracovish not that they are the best, just that they are pokemon that aren't easily walled and have even fewer defensive checks, yet neither are ban-worthy. Dracovish definitely limits teambuilding far more than Metagross does as you can't run fat teams without a water immunity, otherwise you lose. Similarly with Medicham, without a ghost, you are basically playing a sack game against it as well. The difference between those 2 and metagross is the Metagross is weak to pursuit and magnezone, so it is arguable easier to revenge kill a metagross than vish or media since you can trap it.

Does this make Vish and Medi better than Metagross? No. But it does show that there are other pokemon who share similar strengths to Metagross, yet they are only seen as ban worthy on metagross.

It doesn't matter whether the pokemon is "Meta" or not. If it checks metagross, it checks Metagross.

 

[Robot7620]

The thing is, you say these pokemon are relevant, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they are still capable of check Metagross. Personally, I'd argue that even though they aren't relevant, they could become relevant due to a need to check Metagross. I wasn't trying to name relevant meta pokemon, I was just naming some pokemon that could be checks to Metagross and pokemon like Celesteela and Celebi are capable of doing that. I also find it contradictory that you claim Metagross limits teambuilding, yet you also only talk about check it with relevant pokemon. Building teams in terms of relevant pokemon, in general, is more limiting than Metagross.

The fact that mega metagross forces these pokemon into viability for the sole purpose of checking mega metagross, is a sure sign of something that is broken.

I brought up Medicham and Dracovish not that they are the best, just that they are pokemon that aren't easily walled and have even fewer defensive checks, yet neither are ban-worthy. Dracovish definitely limits teambuilding far more than Metagross does as you can't run fat teams without a water immunity, otherwise you lose. Similarly with Medicham, without a ghost, you are basically playing a sack game against it as well. The difference between those 2 and metagross is the Metagross is weak to pursuit and magnezone, so it is arguable easier to revenge kill a metagross than vish or media since you can trap it.

Dracovish is very much wallable without a water immunity, slowbro, tangrowth, and mega venusaur all check it relatively easily, and in the case of the former 2 they are very much splashable. Also metagross isn't even easily trapped by magnezone, first it has to be scarf, next it has be chipped A LOT.
248 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
That's a lot of prior damage and therefore magnezone doesn't reliably trap a healthy metagross given earthquake is one of the most common coverage options on it.

Does this make Vish and Medi better than Metagross? No. But it does show that there are other pokemon who share similar strengths to Metagross, yet they are only seen as ban worthy on metagross.

You said it yourself, vish and medi aren't better then metagross.
That is because mgross has a lot of better traits. It has a much better speed tier sitting at 350, it also has much better bulk (for comparison, it's bulkier then Skarmory) not to mention a single mash boost, a single zen flinch, or a single paralyze from thunder punch let it punch holes in teams that should've been able to handle it.

It doesn't matter whether the pokemon is "Meta" or not. If it checks metagross, it checks Metagross.

No but being relevant for the sole role of checking metagross screams broken.

 

[Cuddly]

Dracovish is very much wallable without a water immunity, slowbro, tangrowth, and mega venusaur all check it relatively easily, and in the case of the former 2 they are very much splashable. Also metagross isn't even easily trapped by magnezone, first it has to be scarf, next it has be chipped A LOT.
248 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
That's a lot of prior damage and therefore magnezone doesn't reliably trap a healthy metagross given earthquake is one of the most common coverage options on it.

This is a bit nitpicky, but..
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 164-193 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 179-211 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
All of these Pokemon are 2HKO'd by Banded Fishious Rend, you know, the one move Dracovish learns (or might as well learn).
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 110-129 (27.2 - 31.9%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 148-176 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
For Scarf, they do manage to survive more than 2 hits, but by then they'll be in the Red.
Tangrowth/Slowbro are plausible checks, as long as it's only for Scarf Dracovish, but Mega Venusaur definitely isn't a good answer at all.

And that kind of brings up another point.
Why does Dracovish get a free pass for 2HKOing nearly everything with just 1 move, but Mega Metagross doesn't when it has to juggle between coverage to not be walled?
Honestly, it's probably only because of Meteor Mash, where you just roll the dice to either see if you still check Mega Metagross or not. 100% everything else is fine about Mega Metagross, but that 10% chance to raise its attack is what sets it over the edge. Don't you just love RNG?
However, I still want to have the Mega Metagross suspect be halted until the DLC launched, where the new moves, Pokemon, and potential regional form (hopefully one that is a Steel/Ghost with Unaware) to see how Mega Metagross would fair.

Go ahead I guess.

 

[KirbCena]

However, I still want to have the Mega Metagross suspect be halted until the DLC launched, where the new moves, Pokemon, and potential regional form (hopefully one that is a Steel/Ghost with Unaware) to see how Mega Metagross would fair.

Go ahead I guess.

Waiting for the DLC isn't going to do anything to fix the main issue of Megagross at all, which is that it lacks reliable defensive answers outside of Mega Slowbro (who's not that splashable compared to its regular form, which is 2HKOED after SR most of the time) and Mega Scizor. Seriously, I'd like to see what new moves that any defensive mon gets that magically makes Megagross not broken, as pretty much everything that got buffs in the datamine got only offensive moves and nothing got a BST boost to improve bulk, which doesn't exactly help your argument here. Hoping for a "Steel/Ghost with Unaware" is pretty laughable too, as that'd just get smacked by Earthquake. I'd also like to know where you got the notion that Megagross has to "juggle coverage", because it really only needs MM, ZHB, and TPunch to threaten the majority of the tier, and can then either run EQ, Hammer Arm, or Bullet Punch to hit what the team needs covered. Hell, it's even started running Toxic on occasion to make up for its teammate Zygarde being gone. A pokemon with coverage issues would NOT have that many viable options for its last moveslot. Waiting 2 months for DLC when we don't even know if the datamined movepools that were found back in January/February are even finalized would be a really bad decision overall, as we would literally be repeating the mistake we made last gen of waiting for something obviously broken and unhealthy to somehow be not broken(looking at you Pheromosa and Zygarde). Even if the movepools are finalized, it doesn't change the previously mentioned point that nothing got anything that would help Megagross be more balanced.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

Funny thing is that I faced someone with NXMETA in their name and that he/she said it was a suspect for Melmetal, which I now see is NOT the case in this thread.

I'm torn on this one. Mega Metagross is fantastic in its offensive capabilities with a 145 attack stat and 110 speed stat. It's actually got some amazing physical bulk as well (150, Jesus). Access to a move with a 10% chance to raise attack, as well as a form of priority in Bullet Punch, makes Mega Metagross extremely feared in the OU metagame.

However, I remembered that when it did get banned to Ubers, it was really useless. It literally struggled to find a niche. Which made me think if this guy really needed to be banned. Personally, I don't run Mega Metagross, so I can't say I care about this mega. Also, I'm punching myself now because I have to remember that we're not focused on viability drops, such as Dugtrio after the Arena Trap ban.

Not sure if I'm going to participate, especially since I see that 80 GXE is required and that trying to reach 75 GXE in the Dynamax suspect nearly killed me. I might though, but again, I don't have a concrete opinion.

Also, Cuddly is making a really good point about Dracovish. Most of its checks aren't exactly doing too well at switching in.

 

[Robot7620]

Funny thing is that I faced someone with NXMETA in their name and that he/she said it was a suspect for Melmetal, which I now see is NOT the case in this thread.

I'm torn on this one. Mega Metagross is fantastic in its offensive capabilities with a 145 attack stat and 110 speed stat. It's actually got some amazing physical bulk as well (150, Jesus). Access to a move with a 10% chance to raise attack, as well as a form of priority in Bullet Punch, makes Mega Metagross extremely feared in the OU metagame.

However, I remembered that when it did get banned to Ubers, it was really useless. It literally struggled to find a niche. Which made me think if this guy really needed to be banned. Personally, I don't run Mega Metagross, so I can't say I care about this mega. Also, I'm punching myself now because I have to remember that we're not focused on viability drops, such as Dugtrio after the Arena Trap ban.

Not sure if I'm going to participate, especially since I see that 80 GXE is required and that trying to reach 75 GXE in the Dynamax suspect nearly killed me. I might though, but again, I don't have a concrete opinion.

Also, Cuddly is making a really good point about Dracovish. Most of its checks aren't exactly doing too well at switching in.

Not banning something just because it might do trash in Ubers is a terrible reason.
small nitpick it's 20 percent to raise attack not 10

 

[Cuddly]

Waiting for the DLC isn't going to do anything to fix the main issue of Megagross at all, which is that it lacks reliable defensive answers outside of Mega Slowbro (who's not that splashable compared to its regular form, which is 2HKOED after SR most of the time) and Mega Scizor. Seriously, I'd like to see what new moves that any defensive mon gets that magically makes Megagross not broken, as pretty much everything that got buffs in the datamine got only offensive moves and nothing got a BST boost to improve bulk, which doesn't exactly help your argument here. Hoping for a "Steel/Ghost with Unaware" is pretty laughable too, as that'd just get smacked by Earthquake. I'd also like to know where you got the notion that Megagross has to "juggle coverage", because it really only needs MM, ZHB, and TPunch to threaten the majority of the tier, and can then either run EQ, Hammer Arm, or Bullet Punch to hit what the team needs covered. Hell, it's even started running Toxic on occasion to make up for its teammate Zygarde being gone. A pokemon with coverage issues would NOT have that many viable options for its last moveslot. Waiting 2 months for DLC when we don't even know if the datamined movepools that were found back in January/February are even finalized would be a really bad decision overall, as we would literally be repeating the mistake we made last gen of waiting for something obviously broken and unhealthy to somehow be not broken(looking at you Pheromosa and Zygarde). Even if the movepools are finalized, it doesn't change the previously mentioned point that nothing got anything that would help Megagross be more balanced.

Based on movepools, that is true.
But we already know new regional forms and new Pokemon exist for the DLC, and I highly doubt that it will be just Slowbro, Elemental Birds, the Regi, and the 2 new Mythicals.
But I don’t really care about waiting for the DLC that much either.

 

[Cabneet]

My biggest issue with MGross is how likely it is to hax passed all of its checks.
Almost all of its common STAB and coverage move have some kind of hax chance. You have about a 10-20% chance to just lose every time this thing throws out an attack, be it from a flinch, a para, or an attack boost letting it break through an otherwise reliable wall.

Because that's just the thing- there ARE no reliable defensive answers. Every single mon who can potentially switch in to any set can be broken through with luck, and the chances of this occurring is compounded the longer the match goes on, especially given how many opportunities MGross has to come in and start throwing out attacks.
For a particularly gross example, if a slowbro switches in on a meteor mash with rocks up and the metagross gets +1, slowbro then has to switch out to regen or it dies to thunder punch (or be running mega for the extra def)
I think the only mon who is really "hax resistant" against it is mega scizor, who metagross can and does unironically run HP fire for.

 

[TURBODERP]

I think the only mon who is really "hax resistant" against it is mega scizor, who metagross can and does unironically run HP fire for.

IIRC in Gen 7 that was one of the things that became more prevalent (albeit still niche) when Mega Scizor became the go-to Mega Metagross answer. Also, it helps avoid Rocky Helmet/Iron Barb chip from Ferrothorn, which is nice and also dodges the speed drop from Hammer Arm.

And Mega Metagross has base 105 Special Attack, so 4x SE HP Fires do plenty of damage. With a neutral nature and 1 layer of Spikes, PhysDef Ferrothorn and SpDef Mega Scizor are usually (over 80% of the time) 2HKO'd by HP Fire on the switch in.

 

[Frandaly1234]

I don’t know what to say about this one. Mgross is an amazing wallbreaker and all out attacker at the same time and get rid of it’s teammates’ checks/counters. By itself it’s incredible with a base 145 Attack stat with a 20% chance of raising it more with meteor mash, gengar level speed, and Bullet punch to KO any chipped scarfers. Tough claws just increases it’s damage potential even more. It’s defenses also allow it to take some super effective hits like mega Ttar’s STAB un boosted crunch. I am very new to to this metagame though so maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

I don’t know what to say about this one. Mgross is an amazing wallbreaker and all out attacker at the same time and get rid of it’s teammates’ checks/counters. By itself it’s incredible with a base 145 Attack stat with a 20% chance of raising it more with meteor mash, gengar level speed, and Bullet punch to KO any chipped scarfers. Tough claws just increases it’s damage potential even more. It’s defenses also allow it to take some super effective hits like mega Ttar’s STAB un boosted crunch. I am very new to to this metagame though so maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Don't worry. You've hit all the right points; Mega Gross has a lot of things to make it work.

 

[Guard]

​

Before I get into anything too deep, let me emphasize this:

compulsory to read

STREAM SAY SO by Doja Cat!

With that highly important notion out of the way, let's proceed shall we?

It is no secret that the metagame has had a constant issue of a highly select and centralized upper echelon for months now. Both the council and community have attempted a great deal in regards to dealing with this issue already, successfully suspecting and banning Genesect and Mega Blastoise, as well as quickbanning Zygarde. Yet, the tried and true core of physically defensive Tangrowth + Tapu Fini (+ the often logical addition of Rotom-H) remains the undisputed best defensive core in the current metagame, and the sole reason that can be attributed to this anomaly is the fact that it is by far the most efficient way of simultaneously checking both Mega Metagross and Ash-Greninja, as well as keeping Galarian Darmanitan in line with some support from the likes of Rotom-H and Scarf Hydreigon. This is frankly quite unhealthy for the development of the defensive metagame and is the main issue we ought to see resolved in the upcoming periods. Logically, this is the exact reasoning the council utilized in order to warrant a Mega Metagross suspect test over a Galarian Darmanitan one, a choice that has left quite a few players slightly befuddled. Galarian Darmanitan, however broken it may be otherwise, simply does not restrict the teambuilder in a way where counterplay to any other major threat gets throttled apart from situationally forcing Toxapex to be physically defensive, which made Mega Metagross the prime suspect in our eyes in order to solve the teambuilder issue.

Mega Metagross has a major effect on the teambuilder, basically entailing any of Rocky Helmet Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Slowbro, or Corviknight in order to punish it sufficiently. Any other check, such as the often brought up Mega Scizor, as well as non-Rocky Helmet variants of the aforementioned, are fairly suboptimal in my eyes as they fail to push damage on Mega Metagross, which often leads to these being overwhelmed by teammates earlier than Mega Metagross is taken out. Among other things, Mega Metagross's griphold leads to a few major complications in checking Ash-Greninja:

• immense physically defensive Tangrowth popularity makes Assault Vest inherently less splashable, thus restricting a great Ash-Greninja pivot
• the defensive metagame is essentially focused on the physically defensive side, rather being balanced, which gives Ash-Greninja more opportunities to punish and make progress
• Tapu Bulu, an otherwise extremely solid Ash-Greninja check, is unviable

This unnecessarily results in Ash-Greninja often being too overwhelming to face, which really should not be the case as we have sufficient counterplay options to it in paper.

The teambuilder aspect aside, Mega Metagross is just a very low risk/high reward Pokemon that effortlessly fits into teams, finds opportunities to switch into battle, makes progress, and breaks through teams with coverage, hax, or the more niche Toxic and Explosion. I have outlined this sufficiently in the OP already so I shall pass on giving this any more substance. All in all, I believe Mega Metagross is a clearly banworthy threat, whose ban would greatly free up the teambuilder, as well as let a plethora of other offensive threats shine in plently of different builds, which would greatly diversify our metagame. To me, this suspect test is a mere formality.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

Thank god I did it. The first suspect I've finally succeeded in reqs.

First, I want to apologize for taking an actual screenshot of my PC web page from my phone; I have no idea how to take screenshots of web pages on my phone, so this is the best I can offer. If you are displeased with this, please let me know so I can figure out how to actually take a screenshot.

Second, the reason my username is NXMETA GXE instead of NXMETA Beedrills is because the latter account suffered from about 50% GXE and was pretty irreparable by the time I hit a certain number of games. I actually created four different NXMETA accounts before I finally made one that actually promised me 80 GXE.

So, in about 41 battles, I probably ran into only two Mega Metagross. Both times, I actually got wrecked, so now I'm thinking about pro-ban.

Aside from this, Mega Metagross is just really good. 145 Attack and 110 Speed already makes Metagross incredibly good. Access to STAB Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch, in tandem with Tough Claws, makes it all the more fearsome as an offensive threat. I guess what really makes Mega Metagross stand out, however, is that massive 150 Defense. Yeah, it pales in comparison to some of the bulkier walls in the game, but if your main intent is to set up and then go to town, then the bulk works perfectly for that one turn of set-up. Yeah, the thing can run Agility or Rock Polish, and although those are probably not the first things that come to mind, a Mega Metagross with +2 Speed must probably be an absolute fuck if you're not running anything with Sucker Punch. Speaking of which, there's only two Sucker Punch users I can think of that are great in OU: Mega Mawile and Bisharp. Let's see how they fare against Mega Metagross:

-252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 204-240 (67.5 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 226-268 (74.8 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

By the way, this is assuming that Mega Metagross is running Jolly with only 4 HP EVS and nothing in defense. That bulk is pretty hefty. Now if you calculate how much Mega Metagross can do in return with EQ, one of its popular coverage moves:

-252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mawile-Mega: 194-230 (80.4 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 236-278 (87 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Absolutely terrifying. They're not exactly reliable checks. And even if Mega Mawile or Bisharp does survive, both are going to get cleaned up with Bullet Punch. This just goes to show how that defense helps for Mega Metagross. Of course, you can contest that Meteor Mash is 90% accurate and is not always going to give the Attack boost; this thing also has access to Hone Claws. Let that sink in.

Of course, the other "reliable" checks have been the aforementioned Mega Slowbro and Mega Scizor, and probably the latter if Mega Metagross is running Thunder Punch (which actually seems to be popular in comparison to Ice Punch). It's basically like the Genesect scenario with Heatran and Rotom-Heat (except those guys were getting chipped heavily with U-Turn). Hell, even scarfed jolly max Attack EV Landorus-T can't OHKO it with EQ, and it can still have a chance of getting OHKO'd by Ice Punch even with the Intimidate drop.

So to summarize, rather than Attack or Speed, I think Mega Metagross's true dangerous feature lies in its bulk. The bulk allows it to survive most moves that would normally kill regular Metagross and can either allow it to set up or get a straight-up confirmed kill. I'd be willing to listen to any possible anti-ban arguments, but now, I'm leaning on BAN. Gonna be honest, though, I'm going to miss him.

EDIT: I just realized this thing has more bulk than fucking Skarmory. Christ.

 

[Soulthief1412]

My first suspect test I have completed,, I attended one before last gen when Zygarde was getting baned, but my Internet connection was very bad in that time and I lost like every 5th game to a dc which made getting reqs impossible. Now i tried getting reqs again and that for a good reason I rly like this tier it feels like gen 7 with the new pokemon added and doesen't have like a boring stallish taste to it like gen 8 ou feels like. This tier still has some pokemon with power to break thru fat like mega mawile and medicham that's why i wanted to get reqs and i did it.

In my run I was using Rain (the sample team one with dracovish) and played against quite a few mega metagross like at least 10 and right of the bet I can say that I don't think metagross has a great rain matchup it does tank swampert eq, but it doesent ko back so in a 1v1 scenario in rain it loses also greninja aswell as dracovish in rain one hit ko metagross with dark pulse/fishious rend also ferrothorn is a good wall since most metagross don't run hammer arm.

But i'm very aware that rain isn't the meta and not many/barely anybody uses it so now im gonna talk about my expirience as a team builder, because i mostly build balance, concidering the thread of Metagross. I have only build 4 teams so far, but i can say I didn't feel that pressure as other people make it to be. I think that there are enough checks and some counters to it and good offensive answers. List of checks: Landorus,Rotom-Heat, rocky helmet Garchomp, bulky volcarona, mega charizard x and the list continues of pokemon that can take a hit and do much damage back, yes they might not always kill, but with the neccesary chip from rocks or a rocky helmet user it can be brought in range. Counters are phys def Tangrowth, (mega)Slowbro, Quagsire, Hippowdon and leftovers Zapdos since without leftys you are 2 hit koed by ice punch(still would run heavy boots since i don't see lot of ice punchers and more thunder punchers ). Im very aware that Metagross, has a great movepool and could in theory even run grass knot to beat hipp or quag, but i just am not convinced of it being broken or unhealthy for the metagame in any kind of way since it doesent limit my team building(doesen't mean its not a factor to be prepared for).

My most important point is how was it allowed in gen 6 and should be baned now(?) like i don't get it back then the other pokemon in comparison where not as good as now with new powerfull pokemon like galarian darmanitan, tapu fini, magearna, kommo-o,... so how can it be, that back then it was ok, but now that we have similair strength it's suddenly not ok. I heard the argument that the new powerfull pokemon enable it more like ash gren profiting of everything running phys def for metagross, but in my opinion this isn't at a point where it makes metagross broken.
So i vote no ban.

 

[smokeythabear96]

I dont think its banworthy.

Even though it does hit for some hefty numbers and has pretty great bulk,it is easily shutdown by common pokemon such as aegislash or rocky helmet Lando. It is great at what it does which is wallbreak, but imo we need more breakers in the current meta, not less. This mon does make it tough for stall, but it should. If people want games to take 50+ turns so they have to run weaker moves with high PP, they can just go back to gen 2. The prevalence of stall even in the lower ladders obviously means the game needs more hard hitting mons.

But as far as MGross, offensively its checked by Rotom H, Dracovish(!) Scarf Lando, Aegislash, Black Glasses Bisharp, Volcanion, Specs or Protean Gren, DD Dragapult and ESPECIALLY HDB Volc. Obviously these are all popular picks(maybe except for Volcanion) so most teams have at least one mon that can come in and force it out. Having Mega Gross in when Volc comes in can often mean gg right on the spot. So I dont quite see how its broken. Ive played against it plenty of times on the ladder and ive never thought it was broken.

 

[Arkhan]

NOT BAN
MegaMeta is my babe, in 7g he was banned and wasn't used in Uber... Yes he is a monster in NatDex, but like Dracovish/DarmGalar/Melmetal he has some counters or duo of counters(tang def, ferro if no HammerArm, rotom H, slowbro if no Tpunch, def volca, aegislash, and others) and he is revengeable quite easily...he is strong, sure top tier, but don't deserve to be banned for me

 

[J1mm1P]

in 7g he was banned and wasn't used in Uber...

Something being trash in Ubers isn't a reason not to ban something.

Yes he is a monster in NatDex, but like Dracovish/DarmGalar/Melmetal he has some counters or duo of counters(tang def, ferro if no HammerArm, rotom H, slowbro if no Tpunch, def volca, aegislash, and others)

Every mon has checks/counters, and you completely ignore the fact that most of its checks/counters change depending on the moveset.

he is revengeable quite easily...

This is totally wrong, MGross's solid 350 Speed means your own mon is probably going to be outsped, and its massive bulk of 80/150/110 means that it's going to take many hits before fainting. I am probably not getting reqs, but if I do, I'll be voting BAN for sure.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Rotom-H is not Mega Metagross check, Just run Zen Headbutt. Its not my fault that there are people dumb enough to not run it. Also Thunder Punch is always run on it so saying "if no Tpunch" is saying to me you have no experence with fighting one.

But my problem with these No Ban posts are that they are completely missing the point of why we are suspecting Mega Metagross. We know it doesn't always do everything but the affect it has on teambuilding is massive. We could be running strong Ash-Greninja checks like AV Tangrowth but Metagross forces you to run RH or else it will just not do enough damage. We could be running Tapu Bulu but unfortunately that thing struggles so much because 1. You have to justify it over Tangrowth and Ferrothorn, and 2. It loses very hard to Mega Metagross. If I end up getting Reqs I will be voting ban because of all these things.