Unpopular opinions

pokemon4eva said:
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OR/AS and LGP/E are inferior to HG/SS and B2/W2: BW2 is my favorite Pokémon game and HGSS is close too, while LGPE is my most disliked main series title by far. ORAS? I love it too but compared to HGSS it pales. Now if it asked me for a "ORAS vs Emerald" debate I would have more of a mixed opinion...

MegaRay, Zacian-C and Dynamax are examples of Power creep: Mega Ray is so OP it's ridiculous, Zacian-C tears through everything rn although it suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome and this can affect it once the Uber roster expands. And while I don't think Dyna is that busted, why is Max Airstream so powerful?! You have aceess to this move and a boosting move/Moxie and gg.

D/P remakes won't be good: I agree with this one because of this trend of overhyping unreleased products like it's the second coming or something. We saw it with ORAS, and you'd think people would be more cautious when the game dropped, but then you see posts and comments hyping the gen 4 remakes all over again. I love ORAS, but I think Gen 3 didn't really need a remake like Gen 1 or 2 did, and Gen 4 needs it even less since Platinum is a very polished experience already with little to improve (aside from the HM syndrome).

Megas should be brought back: Love this mechanic, it gives mons a new playstyle and buffed stats. Just....don't waste it on already powerful mons.

Prefer Zamazenta-Hero to Zacian-Hero: I don't dislike Zacian-Hero, I just find Zamazenta's shield-shaped fur amusing in Hero form.

TCG art is better than box art: Only BW2 averts this.

Regional variants are cool and should be explored: And we're getting more of them woooooo!!!

X/Y rivals sucked: It's not that friendly rivals are bad, Barry and Hop are my fav rivals and I liked Hau too, they felt like well established characters. I can't say the same for Tierno, Trevor and Shauna, or even Calem/Serena. They are everywhere in X/Y yet lack any impact in the story nor have any meaningful development from their one-note personalities. Only the Adventures manga did justice to them.

Stall sucks: Need I say more?

S/S QoL changes should have happened earlier: This. Imagine how accessible teambuilding for the Hoenn and Sinnoh Frontiers would be.
Some Gen 1 Pokés are used too much: I mean, it makes sense Pikachu and Charizard get used bc of their popularity, but sometimes it feels so unfair. Eg Charizard and Mewtwo being the only two mons to get 2 Megas.

Game Freak's trust has eroded in the past 1.5 years: Quality discussion aside, they handled Dexit pretty badly with the lack of communication. And there's also LGPE, who I have no idea what is their intended audience...

Oh boy, the umpopular opinions...
Battle Frontier needs to come back: Not like it "NEEDS" to come back, PWT was a thing and I ended up prefering it over the Frontier and I appreciate the challenges of the Battle Tree and Agency. If it came back, I'd still be very happy.

Gen 5 or 8 has the worst designs: Is that a Gen 8 stigma? Because I even heard some detractors saying the new additions are quite good. Gen 5 roster hate mostly boils down to Garbodor and Vanilluxe lines, and the expies (Woobat, Roggenrola, etc.). Is it annoying to see many Gen 1 expies? BW itself was meant to be a soft reboot, a new adventure with only never before seen Pokémon during the main campaign, a decision I loved. New takes in the Fighting Duo, the regional bats, etc. were fascinating to see and I prefer most of them over their Gen 1 inspiration.

The franchise is currently on shaky ground: Controversies aside, the franchise is still standing strong and connects with people over the world.

Defog suck: I would only agree if you meant pre-gen 6 Defog. Heck, Defog now removes terrains in Gen 8, it keeps getting better and better.

NatDex needs to be brought back: I'm kinda confused here...The BringBackNatDex movement wasn't exactly about bringing back the NatDex, it was to program all mons in the upcoming game, to which I say DUH OF COURSE! The NatDex was gone in Gen 7 but all mons were still there. Do I wish too see it back? Not necesarily, that would probably mean completing the whole 800-ish list to attain 100% completiton so I'm glad that Box and Bank now take care of that. Also, the dex entries for the Alola Dex are some of the most creative and curious yet.

Tedious mechanics like breeding encourage hacking: Not sure what it means because breeding and training has been getting much more easier and accessible than ever, all with the purpose of discouraging hacking.

B/W was underappreciated: I remember a FB post that compared "BW stans" to "Evangelion stans", that both groups tend to come off as people that love a product "hated by everyone" (you know, despite BW obtaining a 10/10 in Famitsu, breaking millions of sales, totally underappreciated...). I can't help but agree, and BW is my second fav game of the series.

Gamefreak is better at sprites than 3D models: I like them both, one's not necesarily better than the other one. I never minded the outlines (they are at their best on Swsh IMO), in fact, without them some models look very uncanny (mostly Pokémon showing teeth).

Battle Tower pales in depth: Does this refer to a particular Battle Tower or the Subway, Maison, Tree, etc.? I liked how they added more options: we got Multis in the Subways, Triples and Rotations in the Maison. Opponents in the Tree were able to use Z Moves and Megas, ramping up the challenge. So these places still have considerable depth imo.

X/Y or S/S are the lowest in quality: Again, LGPE is right there...

Pre-3Ds games had the best quality: My personal S Tier is composed entirely of all DS main games except DP, but in the A tier they are followed by USUM and SM, then followed by Emerald and ORAS almost in the same spot. XY is much lower, I didn't like plenty of decisions on that game. I liked SwSh much better but I'd say it lies on B-tier with all that wasted potential. In short, my fav games are DS games and they were among the best quality, but I still like some of the 3D games over some GB/GBA titles.

There should be a free way to transfer Pokémon: I think Pal Park was the only true free transfering system and it still had limitations like the 24 hours rule, while BW transfer required a second DS. Bank and Home provide more than just transferring, however, the fact you have to pay for both services is egregious. There's also the fact that not all mons aren't programmed yet in SwSh so transferring might be worthless in some cases...

Post-2D games can suffer from corridor syndrome: Not sure on that one since 2D games also were faulty on that aspect. There are some wide areas like the routes surronding Laverre City, Ula Ula and Poni Island, some of the routes in North Galar.
 
HanSoloIndie said:
I'll do you a favor then:
Suspicious Derivative's Opinion Bingo:
-image-
You'll have to decide on the rest, because those seem ambiguous to me on your stance. And for "The franchise is currently on shaky ground", that is deliberately left open, I wanted the bingo to encourage civil debate.
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Wow. I have a lot of things to say.

First of all, thanks for making that image for me! That said, I decided to make my own version of it (see further down) to make it more accurate regarding how I personally feel about each topic. And thanks for making the bingo board to start with! It was fun and it created a discussion, which is always nice. I also don't think I have ever seen a bingo like that before in this thread, so it was cool to see something new like that.

Second, after reading your previous post a bit more carefully, I realized that you were the one who created the bingo, so I want to apologize if anything I said something about it in my previous post felt insulting to you. I will try to be less stupid next time.

Third, since you create the bingo, I must ask about the "Battle Tower pales in depth" statement. Did you mean the S/S Tower specifically, or was it the Gen 2/3/4 Tower + the Subway/Maison/Tree? Or all of them? Because that determines how I feel about it.

Lastly, I do not consider B2/W2 to be remakes. They are sequels and I don't think they should be seen as anything else. Just like how Yellow, Crystal, Emerald and Platinum are third versions, while US/UM are alternate versions. Though I guess you could lump them all together and throw in the remakes as well and label them all "follow-up games". But if we are to be specific, I would not place B2/W2 together with the remakes. If anything, I'd rather place them together with the third/alternate versions since they are close to those than the remakes if you ask me.

And here's my bingo image.
eoSaaKw.png


Mixed/partly agree is orange, uncertain is yellow, don't care/no opinion is blue.

And a bit of an extended explanation for some of them.

Battle Frontier: Disagree because I don't think it needs to come back. I wouldn't mind if it did, unless it gets nerfed like the S/S Tower. If that's the case, then I don't want it to come back.

Franchise on shaky ground: I think Pikachu315111 said this the best: the franchise in itself is fine, but GF has become more and more questionable.

Battle Tower depth: As said above, it depends on what we are talking about. S/S Tower? Yes, Gen 2/3/4 Tower and Subway/Maison/Tree? No. All of them? Then mixed.

And that's all regarding that.
New unpopular opinion which I don't think I have posted before: I dislike transferring important Pokémon between generations.

While I really like how the games have had a way to transfer Pokémon to the next generation (except from Gen 2 to Gen 3) and how you could always transfer any Pokémon before Gen 8 and dexit happened, I rarely used it to transfer important Pokémon to a new generation. For instance, important teams. If I train a team in a generation, I want to keep it in that generation and not transfer it to the next one. I would not have transferred any of my important teams in Gen 7 to Gen 8 even if it had been possible. I never transferred any of my important teams in Gen 3/4/5/6 to the next generation either. When I get to a new generation, I usually train completely new teams and let the old teams stay in the old generations.

Then there's legendaries/mythicals. I usually want to keep them in their generation of origin instead of sending them to the next one, but sometimes I have more or less been forced to transfer them to the next Generation just for Pokédex purposes. Though I haven't always done that. For instance, In D/P, the only non-mythical Pokémon I was missing from the Pokédex were Latias and Rayquaza. I didn't want to transfer any of the Latias or Rayquaza I had on Gen 3 so I had to get them through Wi-Fi trades instead. But for Gen 5 and Gen 6, I decided to transfer several legendaries/mythicals to these generations even if I didn't want to, just for the Pokédex.

While I disapprove of dexit and the removal of the National Dex, one positive thing about it is that it no longer forces me to transfer special or important Pokémon to the next generation against my will. So that's one positive thing about it at least.
 
The best pokemon game to be released post B2W2 is Mystery Dungeon DX. That's right I said that a remake of a spin-off is a better pokemon game than the entire 3DS line up of pokemon games, Let's Go, and SwSh. Probably because the writing and characters are actually good instead of the traditional garbage pokemon plotlines and it actually seems like Spike Chunsoft or whoever the devs were for this gave a shit about the product they were making. Maybe those black and white bear games might be good.
 
This is a response to a post in the Gen IV datamine thread. I moved it here so as to not further derail discussion away from the datamine.
Scorpio said:
[Diamond and Pearl's type distribution sucks while previous generations' don't because] Ghost, Dragon, and Ice have traditionally been rarer types restricted to later-game, while Fire has been a starter type since inception, and even beyond that has been more common than those three.
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This point is brought up frequently, but it doesn't really add up.

It's extremely rare for Elite Four members or Gym Leaders to use starter Pokémon (Flint is actually the only one) so Fire-Type's significance as a starter type isn't particularly relevant to the discussion. Even including it, though, up until Gen IV it'd never been much more common than the Ice-Type.
  1. Gen I introduced 7 Fire-Type families (one starter, one eeveelution, one legendary, two version exclusives) & 5 Ice-Type families (one legendary)
  2. Gen II introduced 5 Fire-Type families and a cross-gen pre-evolution (two legendaries (one version exclusive), two post-game, and a starter) & 3 Ice-Type families and a cross-gen pre-evolution
  3. Gen III introduced 3 Fire-Type families and a Castform forme (one starter) & 3 Ice-Type families and a Castform forme (one legendary)
So Fire-Type is slightly more common than Ice-Type, but only slightly. However, this is offset a little by the scarcity of Fire-Type Pokémon in terms of how many can be caught and used in your game.
  • In Gen I, Vulpix and Growlithe are version exclusives so 7->6, if you chose a different starter 6->5, if you chose a different eeveelution 5->4, if you don't want to use or knocked out the legendary 4->3: you're left with Ponyta, Magmar, or Growlithe/Vulpix.
  • On the other hand, in Gen I, if you don't want to use or knocked out the legendary 5->4. Ice-Type actually wins here.
  • In Gen II it's abysmal. Slugma and Houndour families are post-game exclusive, Entei is a roaming legendary who's very difficult to catch until the post-game unless you train a specific team with trapping, and you obtain Ho-Oh right before the end of the game in Gold only. If you don't choose Cyndaquil as your starter or Flareon as your eeveelution, your Fire-Type options during the main game are basically Growlithe/Vulpix and Magmar, 2 Gen I families.
  • Sneasel is also post-game, but you can obtain both Delibird and the Swinub family during the maingame. You can also obtain Jynx if you get the Smoochum egg, Dewgong, and Cloyster. This totals 5 options of families, 2 of them new. Even including Cyndaquil and Flareon, Ice-type wins again here. Or, including Ho-oh, it's technically a tie (capturing Entei is such a hassle that I'm fine with exempting it as a post-game trophy Pokémon. I believe that was basically the intention).
  • Gen III has Vulpix, Torkoal, Slugma, and Numel for available families if you choose a different starter. 2 new ones.
  • Gen III has Snorunt and Spheal for available families if you don't want to use or knock out the legendary. 2 new ones, but this is the exact equivalent of Fire-Type in Gen IV. Fire-Type wins in Gen III, but this proves the point.
Ice-Type being rarer than Fire-Type is simply not true, and Fire-Type has had extremely limited options in all of the first 4 generations. In fact, also in BW: your options were Chandelure, the starter, the elemental monkey which is dependent on your starter choice meaning you can miss both, Darmanitan, and the Victory Road Heatmor.

The rhetoric used when criticising Gen IV is "if you prefer another starter and don't like Ponyta, you can't use a Fire-Type". Well:
  • In Gen III if you don't like Snorunt or Spheal and don't want to use a legendary like Regice, you can't use an Ice-Type.
  • In Gen II if you prefer another starter or eeveelution, don't want to use legendaries, and don't like Magmar or whichever of Growlithe or Vulpix happens to appear in your game, you can't use a Fire-Type.
  • The above goes for Gen I with the addition of Ponyta.
  • In Gen I if you don't want to use a Grass/Poison-Type and don't like Tangela, you can't use a Grass-Type.
  • In Gen I if you don't like Haunter, you can't use a Ghost-Type.
  • In Gen I if you can't trade with someone, you can't use a fully evolved Ghost-Type.
  • In Gen I if you don't want to spend hours in the Safari Zone or grinding the Game Corner, you can't use a Dragon-Type.
  • In Gen II if you don't want to spend hours grinding in the Game Corner and can't trade, you can't use a Dragon-Type until after the 8th gym (too late for most players to save a teamslot for). Even if you can trade, Seadra can only evolve into Kingdra after the 8th gym (requires Waterfall).
  • In Gen II if you don't like Haunter, you can't use a Ghost-Type in the main game.
  • In Gen II if you can't trade with someone, you can't use a fully evolved Ghost-Type in the main game.
  • In Pokémon Silver if you don't like Machop, don't figure out the specific trees to headbutt to find Heracross (in a pre-internet era), and don't roll Tyrogue in the mystery egg, you can't use a Fighting-Type.
  • The above also goes for Gold & Crystal, with only the additional option of Mankey. Heracross is harder to find in Crystal than Gold & Silver where it was also notoriously hard.
  • In Gen II all Rock-Type Pokémon are extremely rare besides Geodude, the one Sudowoodo, and the one Shuckle. Onix is a 5% encounter in one area, and Corsola is a rare time-locked encounter in a couple of specific locations with the Good Rod. Without a guide, many players are left with Geodude, Sudowoodo and the nigh-unusable Shuckle as their only options for a Rock-Type.
  • In Gen II if you don't like Umbreon or prefer another eeveelution, you can't use a Dark-Type in the maingame.
  • In Gen II if you don't like Magneton and can't trade, you can't use a Steel-Type. If you don't like Steelix, you also can't use a Steel-Type.
  • In Ruby if you don't like Banette, Dusclops, or the hassle-to-use Shedinja, you can't use a Ghost-Type.
  • In Sapphire and Emerald the same is true with the addition of Sableye. Either Shuppet or Duskull is much harder to find depending on your version too, however.
  • In Sapphire if you don't like Magneton, Skarmory or Aggron and don't want to use or knock out a legendary, you can't use a Steel-Type in the maingame. This gives you one new option.
  • The above is also true in Ruby with the addition of Mawile.
  • In Gen III if you don't like Flygon or Altaria and can't trade, you can't use a Dragon-Type until after the 8th badge (usually too late to have a teamslot open). If you also don't like Salamence, you can't use a Dragon-Type at all.
This doesn't justify poor balance of type availability in games. It's crazy that every generation before Gen V had at least one clear example of this. But it does mean that people hating on DP specifically for having bad type balance is misplaced criticism if they don't distribute it to the rest of the first four generations too. I also understand that some of these aren't as bad as Fire-Type Pokémon availability in Gen IV, but that doesn't mean they're not still bad. This is the reason why a significant proportion of in-game teams use a mixture of Water/Flying/Normal/Grass/Bug/Poison/Ground/Electric/Psychic Pokémon, with others like Dark-, Fighting- and Rock-Type being introduced into the mix in Gen III. It's simply bad availability of a range of different types, and Diamond/Pearl get the balance better than every game before them despite having a dex of 151 (and having a small dex size is the real bad decision here).

The final counterpoint is "well Flint used not-Fire-Type Pokémon" and you're right, he did. But my response to that is that it was a good thing. There was recently a post in the boss fights thread about how Lorelei uses a Slowbro to cover Ice-Type's common weaknesses, and it has 12 likes. How is that different to Flint using a Steelix to cover Rock-Type enemies and a Drifblim for Ground-Types? And while he uses a Lopunny instead of something like Cherrim to cover Water-Type Pokémon, said Lopunny also uses Sunny Day which is a general cover by weakening Water-Type attacks while supporting its teammates by powering up their Fire-Type moves. I want more Elite Four members to use Pokémon outside of their type speciality because it makes the final boss battles more challenging, but after the consistent outrage surrounding Flint we're unlikely to ever see it again. I think that's a real shame.
 
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This is in response to Celever, but I messed up the formatting. Apologies.

The real problem with Flint is he has only two Fire types. He's ostensibly a Fire type Elite Four member, but he's using Pokémon that have zero relevance to the type. Done correctly, gym leaders and elite four members could indeed have one Pokémon that may not be exactly their type specialty, but fits their general theme. For example, both Bertha and Aaron use one mon outside of their chosen type that does have resonance. Disregarding the major, MAJOR problem Aaron has with his Diamond/Pearl team (that it's awful), Drapion makes sense as a counterpart to his Bug team: not only does it resemble a bug, but Skorupi is actually Bug/Poison, so there's some thematic resonance there. Bertha may use a Sudowoodo due to lack of others, but that makes sense because Rock has been associated with Ground since the beginning. You mention Lorelei, but she only has one non Ice type, and Water has resonance with Ice.

Now let's look at Flint. He has only two Fire types out of his five mon team: Infernape, Rapidash, Lopunny, Steelix and Drifblim. Steelix doesn't even help with the general Water weakness outside of Sunny Day, and even then it's getting smoked by whatever Ground move you have. The only Fire move Drifblim has is Will O' Wisp, and it's getting pummeled by a Rock move like every other Fire type. Finally, Lopunny may not have a weakness to a type Fire also has a weakness to, but all it has is a weak Fire Punch and Sunny Day. That's not even remotely a Fire type team. What would've made sense for him is to have mons that would have resonance with the Fire type rather than three random mons; off the top of my head, Cherrim, Solrock and (this one is admittedly a stretch) Weezing would've had more resonance as members of Flint's team and would've served as decent replacements for one of his mons.

I think Flint is held up as the worst example because he's an Elite Four member. Across the entire franchise, every Elite Four member is supposed to be the pinnacle of their typing. Having the majority of your team be non-Fire types does not make you the pinnacle of the Fire type.
 
Celever said:
The final counterpoint is "well Flint used not-Fire-Type Pokémon" and you're right, he did. But my response to that is that it was a good thing. There was recently a post in the boss fights thread about how Lorelei uses a Slowbro to cover Ice-Type's common weaknesses, and it has 12 likes. How is that different to Flint using a Steelix to cover Rock-Type enemies and a Drifblim for Ground-Types? And while he uses a Lopunny instead of something like Cherrim to cover Water-Type Pokémon, said Lopunny also uses Sunny Day which is a general cover by weakening Water-Type attacks while supporting its teammates by powering up their Fire-Type moves. I want more Elite Four members to use Pokémon outside of their type speciality because it makes the final boss battles more challenging, but after the consistent outrage surrounding Flint we're unlikely to ever see it again. I think that's a real shame.
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It's criticized because it's a consequence of the extremely limited distribution of Fire-types in DP. If he had, say, three or four Fire-types and a non-Fire type to cover a weakness, then it's okay... but when less than half your team is of your type specialty, something's wrong.

And I personally criticize that aspect on Agatha and Lance as well, who are forced to use three Pokémon of the same evolutionary line as they are literally the only ones with their type specialty in their generation.
 
Celever said:
It's extremely rare for Elite Four members or Gym Leaders to use starter Pokémon (Flint is actually the only one) so Fire-Type's significance as a starter type isn't particularly relevant to the discussion.
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There's also Gardenia and her Turtwig. Anyway, I don't think that was Scorpio's point when they called Fire a starter type. While it's true that Fire is actually a pretty rare type, it feels significantly more important than other rare types like Ice because at the start of every game, you have the option to take a Fire for free. The interaction between the starter types (Fire beats Grass, Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire) is so engrained into all of our heads, and if any of us were asked to describe Pokemon, they would probably use Fire, Water, and Grass to explain type effectiveness.

Fire may be barely more common than Ice, but it is far more prominent.
 
Celever said:
This is a response to a post in the Gen IV datamine thread. I moved it here so as to not further derail discussion away from the datamine.

This point is brought up frequently, but it doesn't really add up.

It's extremely rare for Elite Four members or Gym Leaders to use starter Pokémon (Flint is actually the only one) so Fire-Type's significance as a starter type isn't particularly relevant to the discussion. Even including it, though, up until Gen IV it'd never been much more common than the Ice-Type.
  1. Gen I introduced 7 Fire-Type families (one starter, one eeveelution, one legendary, two version exclusives) & 5 Ice-Type families (one legendary)
  2. Gen II introduced 5 Fire-Type families and a cross-gen pre-evolution (two legendaries (one version exclusive), two post-game, and a starter) & 3 Ice-Type families and a cross-gen pre-evolution
  3. Gen III introduced 3 Fire-Type families and a Castform forme (one starter) & 3 Ice-Type families and a Castform forme (one legendary)
So Fire-Type is slightly more common than Ice-Type, but only slightly. However, this is offset a little by the scarcity of Fire-Type Pokémon in terms of how many can be caught and used in your game.
  • In Gen I, Vulpix and Growlithe are version exclusives so 7->6, if you chose a different starter 6->5, if you chose a different eeveelution 5->4, if you don't want to use or knocked out the legendary 4->3: you're left with Ponyta, Magmar, or Growlithe/Vulpix.
  • On the other hand, in Gen I, if you don't want to use or knocked out the legendary 5->4. Ice-Type actually wins here.
  • In Gen II it's abysmal. Slugma and Houndour families are post-game exclusive, Entei is a roaming legendary who's very difficult to catch until the post-game unless you train a specific team with trapping, and you obtain Ho-Oh right before the end of the game in Gold only. If you don't choose Cyndaquil as your starter or Flareon as your eeveelution, your Fire-Type options during the main game are basically Growlithe/Vulpix and Magmar, 2 Gen I families.
  • Sneasel is also post-game, but you can obtain both Delibird and the Swinub family during the maingame. You can also obtain Jynx if you get the Smoochum egg, Dewgong, and Cloyster. This totals 5 options of families, 2 of them new. Even including Cyndaquil and Flareon, Ice-type wins again here. Or, including Ho-oh, it's technically a tie (capturing Entei is such a hassle that I'm fine with exempting it as a post-game trophy Pokémon. I believe that was basically the intention).
  • Gen III has Vulpix, Torkoal, Slugma, and Numel for available families if you choose a different starter. 2 new ones.
  • Gen III has Snorunt and Spheal for available families if you don't want to use or knock out the legendary. 2 new ones, but this is the exact equivalent of Fire-Type in Gen IV. Fire-Type wins in Gen III, but this proves the point.
Ice-Type being rarer than Fire-Type is simply not true, and Fire-Type has had extremely limited options in all of the first 4 generations. In fact, also in BW: your options where Chandelure, the starter, the elemental monkey which is dependent on your starter choice meaning you can miss both, Darmanitan, and the Victory Road Heatmor.

The rhetoric used when criticising Gen IV is "if you prefer another starter and don't like Ponyta, you can't use a Fire-Type". Well:
  • In Gen III if you don't like Snorunt or Spheal and don't want to use a legendary like Regice, you can't use an Ice-Type.
  • In Gen II if you prefer another starter or eeveelution, don't want to use legendaries, and don't like Magmar or whichever of Growlithe or Vulpix happens to appear in your game, you can't use a Fire-Type.
  • The above goes for Gen I with the addition of Ponyta.
  • In Gen I if you don't want to use a Grass/Poison-Type and don't like Tangela, you can't use a Grass-Type.
  • In Gen I if you don't like Haunter, you can't use a Ghost-Type.
  • In Gen I if you can't trade with someone, you can't use a fully evolved Ghost-Type.
  • In Gen I if you don't want to spend hours in the Safari Zone or grinding the Game Corner, you can't use a Dragon-Type.
  • In Gen II if you don't want to spend hours grinding in the Game Corner and can't trade, you can't use a Dragon-Type until after the 8th gym (too late for most players to save a teamslot for). Even if you can trade, Seadra can only evolve into Kingdra after the 8th gym (requires Waterfall).
  • In Gen II if you don't like Haunter, you can't use a Ghost-Type in the main game.
  • In Gen II if you can't trade with someone, you can't use a fully evolved Ghost-Type in the main game.
  • In Pokémon Silver if you don't like Machop, don't figure out the specific trees to headbutt to find Heracross (in a pre-internet era), and don't roll Tyrogue in the mystery egg, you can't use a Fighting-Type.
  • The above also goes for Gold & Crystal, with only the additional option of Mankey. Heracross is harder to find in Crystal than Gold & Silver where it was also notoriously hard.
  • In Gen II all Rock-Type Pokémon are extremely rare besides Geodude, the one Sudowoodo, and the one Shuckle. Onix is a 5% encounter in one area, and Corsola is a rare time-locked encounter in a couple of specific locations with the Good Rod. Without a guide, many players are left with Geodude, Sudowoodo and the nigh-unusable Shuckle as their only options for a Rock-Type.
  • In Gen II if you don't like Umbreon or prefer another eeveelution, you can't use a Dark-Type in the maingame.
  • In Gen II if you don't like Magneton and can't trade, you can't use a Steel-Type. If you don't like Steelix, you also can't use a Steel-Type.
  • In Ruby if you don't like Banette, Dusclops, or the hassle-to-use Shedinja, you can't use a Ghost-Type.
  • In Sapphire and Emerald the same is true with the addition of Sableye. Either Shuppet or Duskull is much harder to find depending on your version too, however.
  • In Sapphire if you don't like Magneton, Skarmory or Aggron and don't want to use or knock out a legendary, you can't use a Steel-Type in the maingame. This gives you one new option.
  • The above is also true in Ruby with the addition of Mawile.
  • In Gen III if you don't like Flygon or Altaria and can't trade, you can't use a Dragon-Type until after the 8th badge (usually too late to have a teamslot open). If you also don't like Salamence, you can't use a Dragon-Type at all.
This doesn't justify poor balance of type availability in games. It's crazy that every generation before Gen V had at least one clear example of this. But it does that mean that people hating on DP specifically for having bad type balance is misplaced criticism if they don't distribute it to the rest of the first four generations too. I also understand that some of these aren't as bad as Fire-Type Pokémon availability in Gen IV, but that doesn't mean they're not still bad. This is the reason why a significant proportion of in-game teams use a mixture of Water/Flying/Normal/Grass/Bug/Poison/Ground/Electric/Psychic Pokémon, with others like Dark-, Fighting- and Rock-Type being introduced into the mix in Gen III. It's simply bad availability of a range of different types, and Diamond/Pearl get the balance better than every game before them despite having a dex of 151 (and having a small dex size is the real bad decision here).

The final counterpoint is "well Flint used not-Fire-Type Pokémon" and you're right, he did. But my response to that is that it was a good thing. There was recently a post in the boss fights thread about how Lorelei uses a Slowbro to cover Ice-Type's common weaknesses, and it has 12 likes. How is that different to Flint using a Steelix to cover Rock-Type enemies and a Drifblim for Ground-Types? And while he uses a Lopunny instead of something like Cherrim to cover Water-Type Pokémon, said Lopunny also uses Sunny Day which is a general cover by weakening Water-Type attacks while supporting its teammates by powering up their Fire-Type moves. I want more Elite Four members to use Pokémon outside of their type speciality because it makes the final boss battles more challenging, but after the consistent outrage surrounding Flint we're unlikely to ever see it again. I think that's a real shame.
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Hello, I'm a contributor to that thread who brought up this point.

I'll admit something: I think my criticism about boss fight teams in DP was badly worded somewhat. Yeah the type distribution for certain ones is bad, but as you've shown there are numerous examples of crappy distribution in earlier games.

No, the problem unique to DP is that they had options right there for giving bosses more Pokemon of their types that they deliberately did not take. More specifically, the overwhelming majority of the cross-gen evolutions that were inexplicably excluded from those games. Magmortar, Electivire, Froslass, all of these great Gen 4 original Pokemon that weren't present in DP because they wanted to do some shitty idiotic Kanto homage because "lol 151 Pokemon in the regional dex get it because Kanto had that many Pokemon" (idk if this was ever confirmed to be the main reason but it's the most widely circulated/accepted one and frankly I cannot begin to think of anything else). From a game design perspective, I stand by the fact excluding these evos was an absolutely catastrophic move that destroyed team variety on both players' and NPCs' ends for no good reason.

And even then (this is what, the 3rd time I've brought up this point in regard to this very topic?), as great as having multi-typed mons for Elite Fours seems (and sure, I'd like that too), I also think intent is important to consider. Let's face it: As cool as DP Flint may be to you, he was clearly never meant to have that team. Just look at him and Volkner in Platinum: Their aces are Magmortar and Electivire respectively, counterparts showcasing their type specialties and providing a link between the two characters. That can't be a coincidence, that and by extension the rest of the Platinum E4 and Gym Leader teams had to have been planned from the beginning but it was changed mid-development. The Platinum squads are what they were always meant to have rather than the abominations a lot of them got saddled with in DP, and nothing you say will ever convince me otherwise. And even if you wanna argue in favor of Flint, are those non-Fire additions really that great? Drifblim's cool I guess, but Steelix just stacks the Ground and Water weaknesses while Lopunny is fucking Lopunny and will never do anything worth shit no matter what you do with it because it's Lopunny and should've been scrapped in the planning stages.
 
Good analysis here, but would like to comment on a few things:
Celever said:
The above goes for Gen I with the addition of Ponyta.
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I would only say this means something in Yellow, since RB locks Ponyta beyond Surf.
Celever said:
In Gen I if you don't want to use a Grass/Poison-Type and don't like Tangela, you can't use a Grass-Type.
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exeggcute.png
exeggutor.png

Some Grass-Types are having an identity crisis here. (Well Parasect exists too, but who would ever use that?) They have decent availability, and can be helpful for Sabrina and a bit for Koga too.
Celever said:
In Pokémon Silver if you don't like Machop, don't figure out the specific trees to headbutt to find Heracross (in a pre-internet era), and don't roll Tyrogue in the mystery egg, you can't use a Fighting-Type.
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That mystery egg only exists in Crystal. GS didn't have it.
Celever said:
In Gen II if you don't like Umbreon or prefer another eeveelution, you can't use a Dark-Type in the maingame.
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Sneasel is actually available in the Ice Path in Crystal as a nightime-only encounter. Good luck actually using it though...
Celever said:
In Gen II if you don't like Magneton and can't trade, you can't use a Steel-Type. If you don't like Steelix, you also can't use a Steel-Type.
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forretress.png
skarmory.png

These two exist for Steel-Types, though while I felt like mentioning that they exist, Both have availability issues. Forretress requires Headbutt and Skarmory coming too late for a slot to be reserved for it.

Now to add on to DP type balance, while Fire might be an infamous example of being limited, with only two families including the starter, Electrics are also quite limited. Only Shinx, Pikachu, and Pachirisu are available for that, and Volkiner's team also suffered. (I have trouble thinking Ambipom and Octilery are supposed to be relevant to Electricity instead of just being randomly slapped on due to a lack of options) Just like Gen 1, Only one Dragon-Type family exists, (Gible) and Ice with it's only two families was already mentioned. (And Candice has only one type break, but had to use two mons in the same evolutionary family to make that happen)
 
khlaylav said:
This is in response to Celever, but I messed up the formatting. Apologies.

The real problem with Flint is he has only two Fire types. He's ostensibly a Fire type Elite Four member, but he's using Pokémon that have zero relevance to the type. Done correctly, gym leaders and elite four members could indeed have one Pokémon that may not be exactly their type specialty, but fits their general theme. For example, both Bertha and Aaron use one mon outside of their chosen type that does have resonance. Disregarding the major, MAJOR problem Aaron has with his Diamond/Pearl team (that it's awful), Drapion makes sense as a counterpart to his Bug team: not only does it resemble a bug, but Skorupi is actually Bug/Poison, so there's some thematic resonance there. Bertha may use a Sudowoodo due to lack of others, but that makes sense because Rock has been associated with Ground since the beginning. You mention Lorelei, but she only has one non Ice type, and Water has resonance with Ice.

Now let's look at Flint. He has only two Fire types out of his five mon team: Infernape, Rapidash, Lopunny, Steelix and Drifblim. Steelix doesn't even help with the general Water weakness outside of Sunny Day, and even then it's getting smoked by whatever Ground move you have. The only Fire move Drifblim has is Will O' Wisp, and it's getting pummeled by a Rock move like every other Fire type. Finally, Lopunny may not have a weakness to a type Fire also has a weakness to, but all it has is a weak Fire Punch and Sunny Day. That's not even remotely a Fire type team. What would've made sense for him is to have mons that would have resonance with the Fire type rather than three random mons; off the top of my head, Cherrim, Solrock and (this one is admittedly a stretch) Weezing would've had more resonance as members of Flint's team and would've served as decent replacements for one of his mons.

I think Flint is held up as the worst example because he's an Elite Four member. Across the entire franchise, every Elite Four member is supposed to be the pinnacle of their typing. Having the majority of your team be non-Fire types does not make you the pinnacle of the Fire type.
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The problem with the thematic argument is that it is subjective. Saying Bertha's Sudowoodo is thematic because has been associated with the Ground type is like saying that its OK for Bug specialist to use a Poison type because they have been associated with each other forever. As in, Bugsy using Weezing because Poison is associated with Bugs. A more objective argument, however would be that it benefits from the Sand Stream set by Hippowdown for boosted Sp.Def. The same argument could be made for Flint however, in which Steelix benefits from Sunny Day to halve its water weakness, as well as offering a Quad Rock Resistance.
 
DreamPrince said:
The problem with the thematic argument is that it is subjective. Saying Bertha's Sudowoodo is thematic because has been associated with the Ground type is like saying that its OK for Bug specialist to use a Poison type because they have been associated with each other forever. As in, Bugsy using Weezing because Poison is associated with Bugs. A more objective argument, however would be that it benefits from the Sand Stream set by Hippowdown for boosted Sp.Def. The same argument could be made for Flint however, in which Steelix benefits from Sunny Day to halve its water weakness, as well as offering a Quad Rock Resistance.
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Bug and Poison aren't nearly as associated as Ground and Rock (and Steel). Those three (or at least Ground and Rock) might as well just be the "Earth" type.
 
khlaylav said:
This is in response to Celever, but I messed up the formatting. Apologies.

The real problem with Flint is he has only two Fire types. He's ostensibly a Fire type Elite Four member, but he's using Pokémon that have zero relevance to the type. Done correctly, gym leaders and elite four members could indeed have one Pokémon that may not be exactly their type specialty, but fits their general theme. For example, both Bertha and Aaron use one mon outside of their chosen type that does have resonance. Disregarding the major, MAJOR problem Aaron has with his Diamond/Pearl team (that it's awful), Drapion makes sense as a counterpart to his Bug team: not only does it resemble a bug, but Skorupi is actually Bug/Poison, so there's some thematic resonance there. Bertha may use a Sudowoodo due to lack of others, but that makes sense because Rock has been associated with Ground since the beginning. You mention Lorelei, but she only has one non Ice type, and Water has resonance with Ice.

Now let's look at Flint. He has only two Fire types out of his five mon team: Infernape, Rapidash, Lopunny, Steelix and Drifblim. Steelix doesn't even help with the general Water weakness outside of Sunny Day, and even then it's getting smoked by whatever Ground move you have. The only Fire move Drifblim has is Will O' Wisp, and it's getting pummeled by a Rock move like every other Fire type. Finally, Lopunny may not have a weakness to a type Fire also has a weakness to, but all it has is a weak Fire Punch and Sunny Day. That's not even remotely a Fire type team. What would've made sense for him is to have mons that would have resonance with the Fire type rather than three random mons; off the top of my head, Cherrim, Solrock and (this one is admittedly a stretch) Weezing would've had more resonance as members of Flint's team and would've served as decent replacements for one of his mons.

I think Flint is held up as the worst example because he's an Elite Four member. Across the entire franchise, every Elite Four member is supposed to be the pinnacle of their typing. Having the majority of your team be non-Fire types does not make you the pinnacle of the Fire type.
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I think Flint's choices for Fire-Type substitutes are largely fine.
  • Drifblim has plenty of resonance with heat. It's a hot air balloon, after all. It learns a couple of Fire-Type moves (though I was sure it learned Heat Wave before checking just now, strange) and though it happened a generation later, it received Flare Boost as an ability to affirm its association with heat.
  • Honestly? Lopunny is probably on the team because it's hot. As in, attractive. It's based on a Playboy bunny after all.
  • Steelix is the strangest option, but it was probably included because of its 4x resistance to Rock-Type. It makes it an obvious Pokémon for a Fire-Type trainer to use if they're trying to cover weaknesses, particularly because the only other 4x Rock-Type resist at this point in the series is Lucario who's already used by Maylene and Cynthia. If there were a type that resists Rock-Type entirely I think he would have used that instead in this slot, just like he did with Drifblim for Ground-Type opponents. Steelix may also be a reference to Bruno and his inexplicable choice of Onix in the Indigo Elite Four.
That said, I agree with you that Cherrim would have been a good option for his team. Not necessarily a better one, though. And neither Solrock nor Weezing are in Diamond/Pearl (nor Platinum for that matter).

Drapion is a great (and needed) inclusion on Aaron's team in D/P to make it suck less, and while Sudowoodo suffices on Bertha's team I think it's only because it's a Sandstorm team (Rock-Type move), and it foregoes its Rock-Type STAB for Earthquake, a Ground-Type move. Plus, in general Sudowoodo's gimmick is masquerading as different types than what it actually is, so it's a cute reference that fits fine. But I also think that Sudowoodo fits on Bertha's team only as well as Drifblim and Lopunny do Flint's. It probably beats Steelix, though. The reasoning that Rock- and Ground-Type are similar is extremely based on perception, and opens up room for things like Grass-Type trainers using random Bug-Type Pokémon or Psychic-Type trainers throwing Fairy-Type Pokémon onto their teams for no reason.

As for Flint inadequately represents his type, let's look at other examples:
  • Siggu is on the money here that Agatha and Lance are also examples of Elite Four members where their speciality is used on the minority of their Pokémon. (2)
  • Bruno gets over the line with his 2 Onix just because of how baffling a choice that is when Primeape and Poliwrath are both in the game and not used by him. (3)
  • Glacia would have been improved had she used Glalie / Walrein / filler / filler / filler because her current team of Glalie / Glalie / Sealeo / Sealeo / Walrein is just awful. (4)
  • Similarly, Phoebe would have benefited from replacing her second Banette and Dusclops with filler (5)
  • Drake from replacing his second Flygon and Shelgon with filler would be better too (6)
  • Karen is one away from minority with her Vileplume and Gengar (7)
  • Koga gets on the list because the only Poison-Type attack on his entire team is Sludge Bomb on his Muk. Venomoth and Crobat have Toxic, but from a player standpoint that means little in terms of type mastery since the only type interactions is it doesn't affect Steel- and Poison-Type Pokémon. He also uses a Forretress, meaning that while he has 4/5 Poison-Type Pokémon, he also has 3/5 Bug-Type. (8)
  • Bruno gets on the list again for not getting rid of his other Onix for Heracross, Poliwrath, or Primeape, even though the latter two were used by Chuck as reconciliation for their inexplicable shafting back in Gen I. Reasoning for this is that while he replaces one Onix with a Hitmontop, that Hitmontop knows no Fighting-Type attacks -- its choices are Quick Attack / Dig / Pursuit / Detect. Come on. (9)
  • Lance gets on the list again because he still claims to be a Dragon-Type trainer as Champion in Gen II, while having 3 Dragonite as his only Dragon-Type Pokémon and a full team of 6 Flying-Type Pokémon. (10)
  • And finally, Steven gets on the list too. His team is fine thematically considering he's a fossil hunter, but he also frequently talks about how he's a Steel-Type trainer when half of his Pokémon aren't Steel-Type. They're the 2 fossil Pokémon and Claydol, another ancient Pokémon, but it's still not his type speciality. (11)
Of the 16 Elite Four and Champions before Gen IV, I would argue 4 represent their type to the standards that people say Flint should: Lorelei, Will, Sidney, and Wallace. Blue isn't type-themed, and so therefore doesn't represent any type. The characters who just spam the few available families of their types aren't representing the berth of what their type has to offer -- Flint could have done Gen III's style and had 2 Infernape, a Monferno, and 2 Rapidash but in my opinion that would have been way worse. The characters who only have one more Pokémon of their speciality don't represent their type better significantly enough to account for the difference in outrage felt toward them: if all of the criticism toward Flint would have been circumvented by him using a Flareon because Eevee happened to be in the game then the criticism is nonsense to start with. And the fact that all of his Pokémon actually have a Fire-Type move is better than trainers like Koga, whose Ariados doesn't even have a Poison-Type status move, and Steven, who only has 2 Steel-Type moves -- the same number as Grass-, Flying-, Poison- and Normal-Type moves, and actually fewer than his Rock-, Psychic- and Ground-Type moves. Why doesn't his Aggron have any STAB again?

The point is, we should be giving Gen IV an accolade for having 3 of its Elite Four members actually representing their type well. Based on series standards until then, that's genuinely impressive. The Elite Four's teams have always been an even worse mess than Diamond/Pearl's when looked at as a whole.
DrPumpkinz said:
There's also Gardenia and her Turtwig. Anyway, I don't think that was Scorpio's point when they called Fire a starter type. While it's true that Fire is actually a pretty rare type, it feels significantly more important than other rare types like Ice because at the start of every game, you have the option to take a Fire for free. The interaction between the starter types (Fire beats Grass, Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire) is so engrained into all of our heads, and if any of us were asked to describe Pokemon, they would probably use Fire, Water, and Grass to explain type effectiveness.

Fire may be barely more common than Ice, but it is far more prominent.
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All of this is entirely valid, but I don't think it's a complete counter-argument. I'd argue that Ghost-Type has been prominent right from the start due to everything that happens in Lavender Town in Kanto, but the same outrage at only having one actual Ghost-Type family in that game isn't there. It's also a little flawed when looking at it the other way: Poison-Type was the fifth most common type in Gen I, but certainly not the most prominent. Even now, Bug-Type is the 6th-most common type. I certainly disagree that it's the 6th-most prominent.

Prominence and distribution have never really been correlated. You're correct perhaps that it's why people care, but I don't think it tracks as a valid line of reasoning.
CoolMan6001 said:
Good analysis here, but would like to comment on a few things:

I would only say this means something in Yellow, since RB locks Ponyta beyond Surf.

exeggcute.png
exeggutor.png

Some Grass-Types are having an identity crisis here. (Well Parasect exists too, but who would ever use that?) They have decent availability, and can be helpful for Sabrina and a bit for Koga too.

That mystery egg only exists in Crystal. GS didn't have it.

Sneasel is actually available in the Ice Path in Crystal as a nightime-only encounter. Good luck actually using it though...

forretress.png
skarmory.png

These two exist for Steel-Types, though while I felt like mentioning that they exist, Both have availability issues. Forretress requires Headbutt and Skarmory coming too late for a slot to be reserved for it.

Now to add on to DP type balance, while Fire might be an infamous example of being limited, with only two families including the starter, Electrics are also quite limited. Only Shinx, Pikachu, and Pachirisu are available for that, and Volkiner's team also suffered. (I have trouble thinking Ambipom and Octilery are supposed to be relevant to Electricity instead of just being randomly slapped on due to a lack of options) Just like Gen 1, Only one Dragon-Type family exists, (Gible) and Ice with it's only two families was already mentioned. (And Candice has only one type break, but had to use two mons in the same evolutionary family to make that happen)
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Ah, thanks for the corrections haha. I tried to be thorough but there was a lot of information to go through, so I thought I might make a couple of errors -- my bad. Though take Sneasel being available in Crystal during the main game as another point to Ice-Type's victory over Fire-Type in Gen II! I also just realised that Poliwrath is also available in Pokémon Silver. However, that means that there are exactly 2 options for Fighting-Type Pokémon during the maingame in Silver (discounting impossible to find without the internet Heracross): Poliwrath and the Machop family. That's the same as Fire-Type in Diamond/Pearl.

I think that Octillery is an adequate inclusion on Volkner's team thanks to the artillery aspect of its design. I suppose gunpowder is more Fire-Type than Electric-Type, but I also think it toes the line with regards to things like fireworks and sparklers, which feel very electric-like. It's also good for an Electric-Type team with it's super-effective STAB over Ground-Type opponents. Ambipom is a question mark though.

Your point that the Mystery Egg wasn't available in Gold/Silver is actually really interesting. Gen II was, other than Gen IV, the generation with many cross-gen evolutions, and without the mystery egg many of these weren't available during the main game. In particular, Pichu, Cleffa, Elekid, and Tyrogue are unobtainable during the main game, while the rest of the Baby Pokémon -- Igglybuff, Smoochum and Magby -- can't be found in the wild but can be found by breeding Johto-native Jigglypuff, Jynx or Magmar during the main game. The only Baby Pokémon the average player will encounter is Togepi, a gift Pokémon. It pretty much sets the theme of cross gen evolutions not being available in the first games in the generation they're introduced in, later being brought to prominence in the third version.

This seems like further justification to lay off criticising Gen IV for not including all of its cross-gen evolutions in Diamond/Pearl. They did actually include all of their Baby Pokémon right away in Diamond/Pearl -- besides Riolu and Happiny they were even found in the wild -- which is better than Gold/Silver in that respect.

Wow, defending Flint. Really living up to the title of the thread here. I think this opinion would get me burned at the stake in mediaeval times.
 
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DrPumpkinz said:
Bug and Poison aren't nearly as associated as Ground and Rock (and Steel). Those three (or at least Ground and Rock) might as well just be the "Earth" type.
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But point is that association is subjective the way khlaylav phrased. The way you are wording is also a subjective statement, an objective statement would be, " Ground, Rock, Steel are associated because all 3 take 0 damage from sandstorm. "
CoolMan6001 said:
These two exist for Steel-Types, though while I felt like mentioning that they exist, Both have availability issues. Forretress requires Headbutt and Skarmory coming too late for a slot to be reserved for it.
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Would also add that Skarmory is exclusive to Silver, and you must trade to evolve Pineco.

Yung Dramps said:
Hello, I'm a contributor to that thread who brought up this point.

I'll admit something: I think my criticism about boss fight teams in DP was badly worded somewhat. Yeah the type distribution for certain ones is bad, but as you've shown there are numerous examples of crappy distribution in earlier games.

No, the problem unique to DP is that they had options right there for giving bosses more Pokemon of their types that they deliberately did not take. More specifically, the overwhelming majority of the cross-gen evolutions that were inexplicably excluded from those games. Magmortar, Electivire, Froslass, all of these great Gen 4 original Pokemon that weren't present in DP because they wanted to do some shitty idiotic Kanto homage because "lol 151 Pokemon in the regional dex get it because Kanto had that many Pokemon" (idk if this was ever confirmed to be the main reason but it's the most widely circulated/accepted one and frankly I cannot begin to think of anything else). From a game design perspective, I stand by the fact excluding these evos was an absolutely catastrophic move that destroyed team variety on both players' and NPCs' ends for no good reason.

And even then (this is what, the 3rd time I've brought up this point in regard to this very topic?), as great as having multi-typed mons for Elite Fours seems (and sure, I'd like that too), I also think intent is important to consider. Let's face it: As cool as DP Flint may be to you, he was clearly never meant to have that team. Just look at him and Volkner in Platinum: Their aces are Magmortar and Electivire respectively, counterparts showcasing their type specialties and providing a link between the two characters. That can't be a coincidence, that and by extension the rest of the Platinum E4 and Gym Leader teams had to have been planned from the beginning but it was changed mid-development. The Platinum squads are what they were always meant to have rather than the abominations a lot of them got saddled with in DP, and nothing you say will ever convince me otherwise. And even if you wanna argue in favor of Flint, are those non-Fire additions really that great? Drifblim's cool I guess, but Steelix just stacks the Ground and Water weaknesses while Lopunny is fucking Lopunny and will never do anything worth shit no matter what you do with it because it's Lopunny and should've been scrapped in the planning stages.
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The same could be said for FRLG and HGSS as well. If FRLG had allowed Kingdra to be obtained prior to post game, Lance could have had Kingdra replace one of the Dragonair who have very identical movesets, with the only difference between Dragon Rage vs Thunder Wave. Or Aerodactyl, who just stacks Rock and Ice Weakness with Gyarados and Dragonite.

HGSS also has the same problem with DP: Not all the cross generational evolutions were available prior to post game. In fact, I'd say its worse, because Pokemon that evolve through learning a new move ( Mamoswine, Yanmega, Lickilicky, Tangrowth etc. ) are in the Johto Dex despite the likes Magmortar, Mismagius, Togekiss, and Honchkrow not being available until the post game. Misdreavus and Murkrow could even be obtained in the pre-ending thanks to Safari Zone. Glaceon, Leafeon, and Magnezone were unavailable without trading. They could have put the location based evolutions in Ilex Forest, Viridian Forest, Ice Path, Seafoam Islands, and Powerplant to name a few, As a result there are a ton of missed opportunities for rehashed John teams. For example: Morty could use Mismagius as his ace to represent Gen 4 as well as 2 due to being Misdreavus's evolved form, Karen's Murkrow would be more threatening as a Honchkrow, and Glaceon would be very dangerous on Pryce for its insane Sp.Atk. The problem consists even to Kanto: Erika uses Tangela, Blaine uses Magmar, Lt. Surge use Electabuzz, and Blue uses Rhydon despite it being Post-game and the National Dex being available. There is no reason for them to use their weaker form aside from faith for the original version. Silver doesn't even use Weavile or Magnezone on his rematches while the gym leaders do use the final evolved forms.

So yeah, I don't think DP are the only victims of a lack of cross generational families to make the game's bosses better, HGSS are arguably worse because they had Cross-Generation forms in the Pokedex but decided not to advantage of them probably for the sake of familiarity to the originals, even outright excluding some while letting others in.

Fortunately ORAS took the liberty of allowing all cross generations, even making adjustments like how Dusknoir is Phoebe's ace while Glacia use Froslass instead of Sealeo.

And one thing I'd like to add is that in GSC, the Fire Stone is not obtainable until Post game, so your stuck with an unevovled Vulpix/ Growlithe until you beat the champion, effectively making Magmar, Entei, and Ho-oh the only fully evolved fire types available, in the wild, and the latter is not even obtainable in Silver for the pre-ending. So yeah, GSC have pretty bad Fire type options too. Flareon is completely unavailable as well.
 
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DreamPrince said:
But point is that association is subjective the way khlaylav phrased. The way you are wording is also a subjective statement, an objective statement would be, " Ground, Rock, Steel are associated because all 3 take 0 damage from sandstorm. "
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And because Pokemon of each type commonly learn moves of all three types (less so with Steel).
And because the Pokemon look similar (less so with Steel).
And because the things they represent are basically the same thing (less so with Steel).

Rock and Ground are to Pokemon what Spark and Plasma are to Kirby.
 
DreamPrince said:
The same could be said for FRLG and HGSS as well. If FRLG had allowed Kingdra to be obtained prior to post game, Lance could have had Kingdra replace one of the Dragonair who have very identical movesets, with the only difference between Dragon Rage vs Thunder Wave. Or Aerodactyl, who just stacks Rock and Ice Weakness with Gyarados and Dragonite.

HGSS also has the same problem with DP: Not all the cross generational evolutions were available prior to post game. In fact, I'd say its worse, because Pokemon that evolve through learning a new move ( Mamoswine, Yanmega, Lickilicky, Tangrowth etc. ) are in the Johto Dex despite the likes Magmortar, Mismagius, Togekiss, and Honchkrow not being available until the post game. Misdreavus and Murkrow could even be obtained in the pre-ending thanks to Safari Zone. Glaceon, Leafeon, and Magnezone were unavailable without trading. As a result there are a ton of missed opportunities for rehashed John teams. For example: Morty could use Mismagius as his ace to represent Gen 4 as well as 2 due to being Misdreavus's evolved form, Karen's Murkrow would be more threatening as a Honchkrow, and Glaceon would be very dangerous on Pryce for its insane Sp.Atk. The problem consists even to Kanto: Erika uses Tangela, Blaine uses Magmar, Lt. Surge use Electabuzz, and Blue uses Rhydon despite it being Post-game and the National Dex being available. There is no reason for them to use their weaker form aside from faith for the original version. Silver doesn't even use Weavile or Magnezone on his rematches while the gym leaders do use the final evolved forms.

So yeah, I don't think DP are the only victims of a lack of cross generational families to make the game's bosses better, HGSS are arguably worse because they had Cross-Generation forms in the Pokedex but decided not to advantage of them probably for the sake of familiarity to the originals, even outright excluding some while letting others in.
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Hard agree, most remakes are absolutely awful in this regard. FRLG's handling of the extra evos completely breaks internal logic just to limit options, HGSS' middleground choice feels really wishy-washy (with the cynic in me thinking that the only reason the evos you listed were allowed was because they couldn't figure out a way to artificially lock them off due to how they evolve) and LGPE pulls the same shit as FRLG except now it's even more of a missed opportunity since they missed out on utilizing the Gen 4 evos as well as weirdly inconsistent since they let Mega Evolutions, Alolan forms and even a brand new Pokemon in the Meltan line exist, barely any of which were used in-game aside from postgame rematches. As I've said in the past, ORAS is the only one where the devs thought "Gee, wouldn't it be cool if we used those shiny new forms introduced since the region's inception to their fullest to spruce up the dex and give the player more options during their adventure?" and it worked out really well.

OG DP and Gen 2 as a whole are the kings of completely fucking over their new Pokemon cast via arbitrary postgame lock-offs
 
DreamPrince said:
But point is that association is subjective the way khlaylav phrased. The way you are wording is also a subjective statement, an objective statement would be, " Ground, Rock, Steel are associated because all 3 take 0 damage from sandstorm. "

Would also add that Skarmory is exclusive to Silver, and you must trade to evolve Pineco.
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Just a nitpick here, Pineco evolves by level (level 31 so doable in the main storyline in a johto game without grinding). The pokemon that you're probably thinking about here is Scizor, which neither of you mentioned despite being available in Johto (although to be fair it involves a trade and if you want to get it before kanto a pretty hard to obtain item you can only get off of wild Magnemite).

Steel-types are still pretty rare in Johto, but all of them are obtainable pre kanto with some effort.
 
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