CAP 27 - Part 13 - Flavor Ability Discussion

[spookysocialist]

Insomnia actually seems like a really good choice after looking at the current list of pokemon that get it, pokemon like Murkrow, Gourgeist, Noctowl, Hypno, Ariados, it basically represents pokemon that are nocturnal or active at night, not so much those that suffer from the actual condition of Imsomnia. Seems to fit perfectly with a fireworks pokemon - no one really shoots off fireworks during the day.

I'd also like to say heatproof doesn't seem like it fits with the fireworks design - fireworks are anything but fireproof, and a heatproof Astrolotl seems like it wouldn't be lighting up in the night sky.

 

[FierceDeity1]

If we wanted to be boring, we could give it generic Fire-type flavor abilities, such as Flame Body or Flash Fire.

While there is no fire on its body in the main design, I still think Flame Body works because Talonflame and Volcarona also get it. I imagine in the heat if battle, Astrolotl can heat itself to guard against contact moves.

Flash Fire probably makes more flavor sense, but may also have more competitive implications. I don't see it being used over Regen though.

 

[Darek]

From the abilities suggested so far, I think I'm the biggest fan of Aftermath, Insomnia, and Friend Guard. Just to add more to the discussion, I think that Frisk and Shed Skin could be worth considering. Frisk emphasizes Astrolotl's playful nature and Shed Skin comes from its axolotl design. While Shed Skin is a useful ability to use, I think that in nearly every situation it's difficult to justify using over Regenerator.

 

[Zephyri]

Hmm.. there seems to be a general distaste for my proposal of Solar Power. Well, no matter! I guess I'll talk about the other two abilities that i thought could fit, after reading through the thread!

I believe a possible contender for ability that isn't being talked about enough is White Smoke.... fireworks literally leave behind smoke trails.. and smoke for the most part is white. It may be a bit boring, but I still think it should be considered, and it is an extremely solid fit for ability in my eyes

The other ability that I do really like, but am slightly less convinced about is Super Luck.. Astrolotl looks like a shooting star and shooting stars are associated with luck so its an ehhhh connection? But Astrolotl genuinely looks like a pokemon that is very lucky: it's super happy! I'd know i'd be happy if I won the lottery!

On a different note, some abilities that I'd like to show my support to are Aftermath and Own Tempo, I think they fit Astrolotl's personality extremely well. An ability that I'm less fond of is Insomnia... a majority of the pokemon learn it seem like scary creepy-crawlies that Astrolotl wouldn't fit in with at all. Imagine Astrolotl hanging out with an Ariados and a Noctowl in an alley at night! I know, you can't! Well, those are just my opinions, feel free to disregard them completely, but I hope what I've said carries even a bit of weight. Good night!

EDIT: I also felt that I should include my opinions on Vital Spirit... personally, I think its a wayyy better alternative to Insomnia... but it just feels a bit generalized for my liking. I wouldn't object to it winning the polls, but I'd like it much more if something like Illuminate, Aftermath, or Own Tempo won.

 

[Dogfish44]

I think Illuminate and Dazzling are both valid - but I lean more towards Illuminate as I think it's more "Light"-linked (Dazzling may be referential to Dazzle Camouflage more than illuminations), and it's also the non-signiature ability of the two.

I think we've got quite a few options to play up "Magical Girl" - from Super Luck and Cute Charm at the more 'mundane' end, over to the more magical Magician (which I'm very fond of), Healer, and Friend Guard. I certainly would like to see at least some of this flavour line on there!

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I really dislike Dancer as is - on the three remaining movepool choices we have zero (0) Dancer moves between them, and it's the signiature ability. To me, it'd feel... wrong, essentially, and I think fairly poor flavour.

 

[Astra]

Responding to some suggestions.

I don't really like Heatproof despite it's rather uselessness. If you look at the Pokemon that get it, Bronzor and Bronzong can make use of it due to its weakness to Fire, and Rolycoly is the only one in its evolution line to have it (Carkol and Coalossal have Flame Body instead, which fits its newly gained Fire typing), though it can still find it useful because it's still neutral to Fire before it evolves. Additionally, most Pokemon that have abilities similar to Heatproof usually covers for their weaknesses to the respective typing or basically turns it into a resistance when it would otherwise hit neutrally (think Mamoswine and Thick Fat). Besides, Astrolotl is a Fire-type itself. Why would fire be heatproof? Doesn't really make sense to me.

Insomnia seems like a fair pick, but I much prefer Vital Spirit to better fit the narrative that Astrolotl is happy all the time. Saying it has insomnia seems too negative.

Flash Fire and Flame Body feel too useful. Despite Regenerator being superior, I feel like it can do too much damage after a Flash Fire boost, and being able to burn with Flame Body can be too useful when facing physical attackers, especially considering its mediocre Defense.

White Smoke does make sense flavor-wise at first, but it actually is kind of an odd choice once you look into it. Fireworks leave smoke trails because of the gunpowder, and I'd like to believe that Astrolotl's firework are more akin to space light phenomenon (plus I don't think it would be carrying gunpowder everywhere). Additionally, actual fireworks use metal to create its colors, which ends up in the smoke and can be dangerous to inhale. I don't think Astrolotl would support such a health hazard!

I dislike Dancer because of the reasons the above post gave about it. It doesn't really make sense considering its movepool will contain no dance moves and it lack strong flavor with Astrolotl.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

Responding to some suggestions.

I don't really like Heatproof despite it's rather uselessness. If you look at the Pokemon that get it, Bronzor and Bronzong can make use of it due to its weakness to Fire, and Rolycoly is the only one in its evolution line to have it (Carkol and Coalossal have Flame Body instead, which fits its newly gained Fire typing), though it can still find it useful because it's still neutral to Fire before it evolves. Additionally, most Pokemon that have abilities similar to Heatproof usually covers for their weaknesses to the respective typing or basically turns it into a resistance when it would otherwise hit neutrally (think Mamoswine and Thick Fat). Besides, Astrolotl is a Fire-type itself. Why would fire be heatproof? Doesn't really make sense to me.

Let me explain my thoughts about Heatproof a bit more:

Astrolotl is clearly inspired by outer space and fireworks, between its design and its name. To me, that suggests that it can enter and leave earths atmosphere at will, which is where Heatproof comes into play. Spacecrafts and meteorites/debris/etc. can reach temperatures of up to 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit (check it) which is pretty darn hot. Astrolotl with Heatproof can freely enter and exit the atmosphere without having to worry about burning up.

Also, keep in mind that we’re discussing flavor abilities here, and not abilities that necessarily have competitive merit. I get your points about Bronzor/Bronzong and the Rolycoly line, and you would be completely right, IF I had tried bringing Heatproof up during the competitive ability stage. But I’m not suggesting Heatproof as an ability for any kind of competitive value. We want Astrolotl running Regenerator, and Heatproof has zero percent chance of ever being chosen competitively over something like Regenerator, especially considering our already great x4 Fire resist, as I explained in my initial post.

However, we’re here to discuss flavor abilities, and my interpretation of “flavor abilities” are abilities that are chosen based on the artwork and name of the CAP (that don’t interfere with the competitive abilities or detract from the concept.) Based oh Astrolotl’s design and name, and link to outer space, I think Heatproof is a fun, quirky, and yes, flavorful, fit.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I'd just like to chime in to voice support for Dazzling and Magician in particular. I think they both fit the magical girl flavour exceptionally well. I'd prefer Magician of the two if we only give it 1 flavour ability, but would suggest Dazzling as the second.

Not a fan of dancer at all. The dancing flavour is dubious at best, considering we have basically no dance moves.

 

[uckuup]

To me Flash Fire, Illuminate, Dazzling and Insomnia all seem like fitting flavour abilities for the firework concept. One I would like to just mention is Flare Boost, the ability only obtained by the Drifloon-line. The obvious problem with this is that Astrolotl can't be burned...
I also support Cute Charm and Own Tempo, and to a lesser degree Dancer and Magician, in regards to the dancing and magical girl themes.
Some more in that vein that I want to bring to the table are: Wonder Skin, Pastel Veil and Marvel Scale.

 

[Mova]

I'll admit that Dancer doesn't have the corresponding moves for Astrolotl, so the flavor is dubious at best. However, Dazzling and Magician are wonderful picks for the magical girl theme. Blocking priority isn't as useful as healing upon switching out, and Magician is just video game stealing, implying that Astrolotl would be forced to forgo an item for it.

 

[sun_dew]

There’s a lot of good abilities out there for Astrolotl flavor-wise. The previously mentioned Dancer fits pretty well, as do Aftermath and Illuminate. Cute Charm and Dazzling are also very strong options. Some ideas I had for abilities:

Blaze: Works very nicely for a Pokemon based on fireworks.
Emergency Exit: This ability, although a little vague, fits the way a firework takes off nicely.
Levitate: This ability makes sense from a flavor perspective, but I’m not completely on board with it from a competitive viewpoint.
Serene Grace: Astrolotl looks very graceful, I guess?
White Smoke: Fireworks leave smoke in their wake.

 

[Darek]

Just thought I'd give my two cents on the some of the abilities being tossed around:

Dancer: Like many others, I also don't think Dancer is a good fit here. I feel like the dancing flavor isn't super apparent in Astrolotl's design and was more or less kinda assumed by a lot of people.

Illuminate: While it does at first seem to match the fireworks aesthetic, all the other pokemon that get illuminate produce light through a constant glow rather than giving off bursts of explosive light. I don't think it quite matches here.

Magician: Also not a fan of this one. The name seems to support the "magical girl" flavor, but its effect of stealing an item and its main user Hoopa seem to imply that the "magic" that the name is referring to is more of the showman's illusion-based magic rather than the celestial, magical girl type magic that we're looking for.

Insomnia vs Vital Spirit: Personally I prefer Insomnia over Vital Spirit. I don't think Insomnia necessarily has a negative tone and mostly just refers to being active at night. I don't think Astrolotl quite matches the personality for Vital Spirit, because although it is cheerful and full of energy, a lot of the Vital Spirit mons like Primeape, Vigoroth, or Lycanroc give off a more aggressive, less elegant vibe.

Heatproof: I'd like to add on to Estronic's point here that there's no need to give Heatproof to a Fire-type mon. Being a Fire-type already implies that the pokemon lives in hot environments and can withstand high temperatures, making Heatproof kind of redundant. It's like giving Levitate to a Flying-type mon.

I don't really have much to add on for the abilities that I like, but my favorites so far are Aftermath, Super Luck, Friend Guard, and Insomnia.

 

[Gleeboop]

Here are my favorites so far:
Aftermath: It makes sense because if you attack a firework, it blows up in your face
White Smoke: Just like JAGFL said, fireworks leave behind white smoke
Levitate: It is a firework and fireworks fly

 

[Reiga]

I think with a design like this with so many inspirations it'd be awkward to focus hard on just one aspect, especially something very vague like it being a dancer or something.
I appreciate Own Tempo and Limber for being very generalized abilities while also not being vague. You can spin both of those towards team dancer, but basically they still work really well for a ditzy magical girl, and limber meshes well with it twirling around and stuff like fireworks.
I'd like to voice my support for Insomnia too though, it's a fitting ability in a not in your face way, I really appreciate it

 

[The Crusade]

Likewise, I would argue for Aftermath and White Smoke, the former of which was also my first thought. Unlike some other suggestions that seem to be projecting attributes onto CAP27 that are not necessarily present in the design—Dancer? When was dancing brought up, except to ban Dragon Dance?—the two aforementioned abilities play on the firecracker aesthetic well. I'm especially partial to them because this element of the design did not make it into the official name.

 

[GMars]

Hi there, since this will be an accelerated stage I'd like to weigh in early on the competitive implications of some of the abilities discussed here, especially now that we have decided our full movepool and can look more closely at move-ability interactions. I will be going through these in the order they've appeared in the thread.

Solar Power -

My only concern it that the move might be a bit too powerful or anti-concept to be considered as a "flavor ability", taking into account that it's basically a life-orb in the sun.

Solar Power is not a Life Orb boost in the sun, it's a Choice Specs boost in the sun. Given that Astro already has phenomenal speed tier, a strong special sun-boosted move in Solar Beam, and a tremendous nuke in Overheat, it isn't wise to improve sun-focused sets any further, and I will be disallowing Solar Power as an anti-concept competitive addition.

Dazzling -
The initial mention of this ability brought up concerns about its competitive viability, which I echo. Given our movepool has many niche boosting moves and Astrolotl is already based around a high Speed, full immunity to priority including priority disruption such as Taunt would undeniably be a competitive addition, and so I will be disallowing this ability.

Aftermath -
This was something that came up when chatting with the other TLT members. It's not a powerful ability, but with it, Astrolotl has the potential to run a suicide lead set like the following:

Astrolotl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Flare Blitz

This set should be extremely reminiscent of Hyper Offensive Mews, with the benefit of being much faster than Mew and beating it one-on-one, while also drawing parallels with Generation 7 lead Greninjas that had to be paired with additional Stealth Rock support.

However, several things became apparent. No matter what non-Regenerator ability we go with, this set will exist, and that's okay. Aftermath only triggers off of contact damage, meaning that the presence of Aftermath does not have to be overbearing on the opponent. The major issue I was concerned with was a potential interaction where a low-HP Astrolotl is KOed by Rapid Spin, and Aftermath in turn KOes the spinner. When this occurs, hazards are not removed from the field, since Rapid Spin's secondary effects do not trigger if the user is KOed as a result of using the move (tested with Jho and confirmed that Spikes were not removed when Equilibra died by using Rapid Spin after taking Flare Blitz + Aftermath). During testing though, setting up the conditions where Astrolotl was able to put a spinner in range of Aftermath without KOing itself through recoil took quite a bit of work. As such, though I could see a competitive set like this resulting from this flavor option, I do not see a need to limit this ability at this time.

Flash Fire -
Turning a resistance into a super immunity has competitive implications, even if that resistance is already 4x. Look at Mega Sceptile for instance -- though Lightning Rod comes with the additional benefit of blocking Volt Switch which cannot be said for Flash Fire, an opportunity for a significant power boost to an already offensive Pokemon puts this squarely outside of the realm of flavor.

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I don't see other well-received abilities that need restriction at this point, keep up the great discussion everyone!

 

[Krazyguy75]

My opinions on each and every ability seen here:

Illuminate: Fine ability, and the argument that we don't have persistent glow is just false; we even had a discussion when spriting about how the tail flame glows.

Dancer: No. We have no dance moves, and we don't really even have dance flavor.

Healer: Totally fine from a gameplay side, but I'm not a huge fan of the flavor. Healing is something we do, but it's not really a major theme. I don't look at Astrolotl and go "Ah yes, that pokemon is a healer".

Cloud Nine: I think this is fine, both for flavor and viability. Not a top pick, but I'll include it on the list of things I'm okay with.

Oblivious: I don't know about that. While "Cloud Nine" has similar flavor, oblivious just has negative connotations that I feel don't quite fit with out happy magical girl pokemon.

Friend Guard: I like this one quite a bit. Magical girls are all about friendship, usually, and protecting people is a major thing they do.

Aftermath: I think this is flavorful, but I'm a little concerned about how it has an impact on the gameplay, even a not very competitive one. Quite often this will give out some extra damage you otherwise wouldn't have gotten, and while it's nearly impossible to rationalize it over Regenerator, I feel like it just would have an impact in too many matches for me to consider it "purely flavor". I'd much prefer a much more useless ability.

Anticipation: This I have a similar opinion of as Aftermath. Sure, it's a bad competitive choice, but it does have an impact on competitive games if you chose it for some reason. And I don't really even see the flavor for this, unlike Aftermath.

Insomnia: Bleh. I hate this idea. Insomnia isn't a "awake or active at night" think, it's "literally can't sleep if you want to". It's got a strong negative implication in my head, and I don't think it fits here. Sure, many pokemon that have it are nocturnal, but they are almost all dark-and-depressing-themed pokemon.

Limber: Again, similar to Aftermath and Anticipation, this would be a bad competitive choice, but not an unworkable competitive choice, and I don't like that. 114 base speed with immunity to paralysis is nothing to sneeze at.

Natural Cure/Magic Guard: There were a major discussion point as a primary or secondary ability. I cannot see any reason why this wouldn't just straight up be banned as they are extremely competitive.

Cute Charm: While it might matter once or twice competitively, I think this is past the line where it is something to care about, given it requires contact, 30% chance, and opposite gender. I think this is within my range of "useless enough to get my full approval". As for flavor, it's totally on point.

Heatproof: Umm what? Yeah, it's useless. But... it's bizarrely useless. We already have 1/4x fire resistance. As for flavor... again, what? We're fire type. Our tail is literally a fire. We aren't heatproof; we are heat tolerant. This one makes no sense to me.

Own Tempo: Sure. It's niche enough and flavorful enough.

Vital Spirit: This is a way better insomnia from a flavor standpoint, and sleep is rarely a big competitive threat (thanks Sleep Clause) so this shouldn't be a problem. Solid option.

Flame Body: This feels a bit too competitively useful. It could completely change a match if you get lucky; Burn is such a good status that can completely ruin a physical mon's day. If it were a dead-on flavor match, I'd be fine, but as generic filler?

Frisk: This is another of those "nowhere near as good as regenerator, but still usable in every match" abilities that I do not love. Knowledge is power, and since every pokemon in competitive has an item, this isn't a purely flavor ability IMO.

Shed Skin: Similar to frisk, this feels a bit too usable, but also I feel like this overlaps flavor-wise with regenerator. Regenerator represents our Axolotl half already. We need to represent the personality, the magical girl aspects, the fire typing, the support role, the firework flavor, the space flavor, etc with the other 1-2 abilities.

White Smoke: Fine power-wise, and great flavor-wise. I'm not concerned about the gunpowder argument really; we're magic to begin with. Make it magic smoke. A solid option.

Super Luck: Pretty fine power-wise, and decent flavor-wise. Solid enough.

Magician: An interesting idea. I like it. Sure, it could have a minor competitive impact, but it's at the cost of having no held item, and I can't possibly imagine giving up both Regenerator and a held item for such a minor benefit. Good option.

Wonder Skin: This feels niche enough and flavorful enough. I'm fine with it.

Pastel Veil: Eh. We are more "neon" than "pastel". This one doesn't really fit the flavor for me.

Marvel Scale: Niche enough and flavorful enough. Fine.

Blaze: This could definitely have competitive impacts. Small ones, but if you get lucky enough, our speed plus attack could make this usable. I don't really want this one.

Emergency Exit: Yeah I don't see it. Sure, we're a firework. Fireworks go up and explode. They don't run away and come back later. It's also a signature ability. I don't really like or get this one.

Levitate: **** no. Holy crap man. Did you just say "let's remove ground mons from our threat list; it's purely flavor!?" We have 3 weaknesses and you want to ditch one of them as flavor!? Not to mention that coinflip immunities suck to go against, as we discovered with the previous CAP! And to make it a coinflip between "x2 damage" and "immune"?! No, no, no, and no.

Serene Grace: Another fully competitive option discussed in the secondary ability discussion; nope, not doing this.



My personal favorites: Magician, Super Luck, White Smoke, Vital Spirit, Cute Charm, Friend Guard, Illuminate.

My personal soft vetoes: Pastel Veil, Shed Skin, Frisk, Limber, Aftermath, Oblivious, Healer.

My personal hard vetoes: Serene Grace, Levitate, Emergency Exit, Blaze, Flame Body, Heatproof, Natural Cure, Magic Guard, Insomnia, Anticipation, Dancer

 

[Quanyails]

Just want to chip in with my two cents (which hold no more weight than anyone else's):

--

Aftermath: I think this is the ability we want if we want to approach the design from the fireworks angle. However, the Pokemon that get Aftermath all get Explosion in their level-up moves. Astrolotl does not, so it makes for awkward flavor for Astrolotl to explode as an ability but not be able to explode naturally.

Cute Charm: Astrolotl has shares some traits with other Pokemon that get Cute Charm:

• Pokemon in the Fairy egg group, like Clefairy, Jigglypuff, and Skitty, which Astrolotl shares an egg group with.
• Milotic, an elegant, aquatic design.
• Sylveon, which is pastel and beribboned.

Dancer: I'll echo the sentiment that I don't think Dancer is a great flavor fit for this CAP, since we haven't given Astrolotl any dancing moves, and Oricorio, the sole Pokemon that has Dancer, has its entire gimmick based on dancing.

Flame Body: It's a Fire-type ability I guess.

Friend Guard: The Power of Friendship is a trope in anime (also see the Japanese concept of nakama), and I can totally see this being given to Astrolotl as a nudge to that. The ability is only given to NFE Pokemon and Vivillon, so normally, this would be hard to justify on a FE Dragon with a BST of 560... but axolotls are known for being juvenile all their lifespan instead of transforming into a mature form, so I think keeping a juvenile ability has some nice flavor. :P

Healer: We got Heal Bell and Healing Wish in our movepool! I wish we got Heal Pulse as well to cap it off! (I voted for it. :P) Either way, some correlations between Astrolotl and Pokemon that get Healer include:

• Alomomola, which gets Regenerator, Wish, Healing Wish, and is aquatic.
• Chansey, which is happy, gets Healing Wish, and may have axolotl flavor.
• Hatterene, which is feminine and gets similar flavor moves like Life Dew/Magical Leaf/Healing Wish.

Illuminate: I can see Illuminate working just fine! Its antennae and tail glow in lieu of actual glowing fire, much like the other bioluminescent Pokemon that get it.

Insomnia: This ability tends to be shared by "spooky" Pokemon, and I highly disagree that Astrolotl falls into that group. Even if you are to say that Astrolotl is nocturnal (which some Pokedex entries say), that would not be insomnia but just a normal diurnal rhythm. (E.g., see Lunatone, Oddish, Noivern.)

Magician: I think Magician is okay, but the more I thought about it, the more I agree that the underlying flavor doesn't match beyond "magic". The current Pokemon that get Magician are more the type to employ trickery, which is also supported by the ability stealing the opponent's item. Astrolotl seems to be more of a genuine sort, whose magic is more spectacle than trickery.

Telepathy: It's a pretty common ability to slap onto Pokemon that are psychic or have heightened senses, and I can see Astrolotl being in that camp.

Vital Spirit: In its concept art, Astrolotl looks like it's on the cusp of exploding with energy. This is totally in-line with other Pokemon that get Vital Spirit like Primeape and Vigoroth. I think this is a great fit for Astrolotl's projected personality.

 

[Gleeboop]

May I make few last minute suggestions?:
Keen Eye: A firework can, for the most part, shoot straight.
Marvel Scale: This is a magic girl pokemon, so surely it will use its magic to defend itself, right? It is also a dragon, which are known to have scales.
Power Spot: Yet another ability that boosts its friends. It is also a magically powerful pokemon, which should allow it to create power for its friends.
Symbiosis: Yet another ally boosting ability.

I also voice my support for White Smoke, Aftermath and Healer (As the best suggestions so far. I know a pokemon can't have 4 abilities)

 

[Quanyails]

The CAP mods with GMars have decided that these will be the abilities on the slate for Flavor Ability 1 and Flavor Ability 2!

Aftermath
Cute Charm
Dancer
Friend Guard
Illuminate
Insomnia
Own Tempo
Super Luck
Vital Spirit
White Smoke

In addition, No Flavor Ability will also be an option for Flavor Ability 2.