What is G-Weezing doing to steels that K-Weezing doesn't also do? I think they should be tiered the same. You use them both for the same thing (sitting next to regigigas) and the only difference is weaknesses and resistances
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VGC Series 7 Metagame Discussion and Resources Thread (Viability Rankings Post #2)
- Thread starter zee
- Start date
Bananers
V
Oh I didn't realize that. Well maybe I just had some bad luck with the matchups I was getting.
Also I didn't mention it but I do believe that K-Weezing and G-Weezing should be tiered the same, I just like G-Weezing.
The difference is if your opponent wants to KO it they have to click max ground and not max steelspike - it's got a pretty high base defense. If they're not clicking steelspike then regigigas is KOing things.
It's probably a C tier mon, but it's also significantly better than a horrible gimmick. It got top 8 in NA player's cup (I worked with Lexicon to build that team and we got up to 1800 on PS with it) and Fevzi topped the battle spot ladder with it as well. It's got some very positive matchups not just because regigigas is strong as heck, but because weezing messes up a lot of teams synergy. Most notably, its positive into all the metagross teams because they cant protect metagross from getting burned and usually only have one normal resist.
Spectrier C->BIts typing is problematic defensively due to weaknesses to Urshifu/Dragapult/Moltres-G and its movepool is very limited but it can do a few things really well. It is a strong dynamax option with redirection support and its ability allowing it to snowball out of control and it can be an excellent support pokemon with access to will-o-wisp, snarl, haze, scary face, tail whip as well as fast taunt and bulldoze for WP activation. If I could suggest B-/C+ I would for sure but looking at the rest of the C tier I feel Spectrier belongs higher.
Take: if crap like regirock is on here then escavalier belongs in C. I've found him very useful against things like glastrier and stakataka trick room and metagross, which are very common nowadays, since none of them can hit it for very much damage at all. It hasn't changed very much at all from last season, and its access to drill run really comes into good use with regieleki running around all over the place, so I'd put it as a right proper anti-meta mon.
Bananers
V
Dude you really like Escavalier, and I also do. I second this. Also Regirock becomes extremely bulky with AV and sandstorm.
i will shill escavalier until i die
Bananers
V
Celesteela B -> AThis thing is really good. It has great stats with a great typing. Steel/Flying is great and 97/103/101 bulk is phenomenal and 101/107 attacking stats are great too. I personally like to run max speed timid with either Life Orb or Weakness Policy and max it since it has great max moves. This set needs tailwind but it is still good. Another good set for maxing is the bulky af AV set that JoeUX9 ran on stream the other day. The last but not my favorite set is the stall set with Leech Seed and Leftovers. It is very good right now and I think it deserves to be up there with the A tiers.
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Urshifu-S: A-->S
Do I really need to go in-depth here? Really? This thing is super good. As bad as a 4x fairy weakness is, it has very good coverage, Wicked blow is super busted, and it hits like a freight train. It's super dominant in the meta, being more used than any of the S-tier mons, and really should be considered the best in the format right now.
Do I really need to go in-depth here? Really? This thing is super good. As bad as a 4x fairy weakness is, it has very good coverage, Wicked blow is super busted, and it hits like a freight train. It's super dominant in the meta, being more used than any of the S-tier mons, and really should be considered the best in the format right now.
approving this
I still don’t think a jump to anything higher than B is warranted. Using coalossal already decides the majority of your team for you, if you disagree then look at the two player’s cup winning teams. It has potency, sure, but its scope is entirely limited to being partnered with a few Pokemon.Coalossal-Gmax C->A Do I really need to explain? It just won the Players Cup 2 and has proven to still be a massive threat.
Also, yes, you are required to provide explanations for your shifts. It builds legitimacy to your argument and without them you’re either spewing tour results or ladder usage, neither of which alone are justifcation for a jump as large as C to A. Thank you. OP will be edited when I’m back on a laptop.
Bananers
V
Yeah maybe that was too big of a jump, but I would argue it is B tier. It can just deal so much damage between attacking and the passive Vocalith damage. Even with it's bad defensive typing it can take some hits in max as well. While yes, you need to dedicate your entire team around it, you can still have another mode. Wolfe's team that won the PC2 had a G-Moltres mode, and Wolfe's first Coal team had a TR mode. A is too much, I will agree with that, but I still think it should jump to B. A mon can't win a players cup twice and be C tier.
So I had a go at writing an analysis. Constructive criticism is appreciated.
Coalossal is potentially an extremely threatening Pokemon, as Steam Engine combined with Weakness Policy gives it +6 Speed and +2 in both attacking stats. Rock / Fire is extremely potent offensive typing, letting it hit many common Pokemon such as Metagross, Glastrier, Kartana, Zapdos, Rillaboom and Galarian Moltres super effectively, and having near perfect neutral coverage. It doesn't necessarily need to use Steam Engine either, as base 30 Speed makes it quite potent on Trick Room teams. Finally, it packs a very powerful G Max move in G Max Volcalith, which, in addition to dealing massive damage, also causes non Rock-type opponents to lose 1/6th of their health per turn, breaking Focus Sashes and quickly wearing foes down.
But that's where the good news stops. While its typing is great offensively, defensively it packs weaknesses to common Water, Ground and Fighting attacks, with the former 2 being 4X. It needs quite a lot of support to do its job as well, as it needs a teammate that can reliably hit it with a Water move, a teammate with Trick Room to either set or counter set it, and a teammate that can reliably handle opposing Water types. Base 80 / 80 attacking stats are average at best, so if Coalossal doesn't get to trigger its Weakness Policy it won't be hitting too hard. Meteor Beam and Solar Beam both take a turn to charge, though the latter can be negated by Sun, making them unreliable outside Gigantamax. It also faces stiff competition from other Weakness Policy users like Metagross, Glastrier, Stakataka and Tyranitar, which are all more consistent Pokemon overall and thus easier to fit on teams.
Just Add Water (Steam Engine Sweeper)
Coalossal-G Max @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Steam Engine
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 Spe
Level: 50
Modest Nature
- Meteor Beam
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Protect
Meteor Beam is Coalossal's strongest STAB, turning into a monstrous 140 base power G Max Volcalith when Gigantamaxed. Heat Wave is a consistent STAB that gets around Follow Me and Rage Powder. Its max version also sets Sun, letting Coalossal hit even harder and reducing its Water weakness. Solar Beam hits opposing Ground and Water types, OHKOing Tapu Fini after a boost. The EVs allow Coalossal to outrun Dragapult after Steam Engine has activated, with maximum Special Attack for more power and the rest in HP for bulk. You could invest more into Speed if you wish: 68 Evs allow Coalossal to outrun Choice Scarf Landorus-T at +6, while 132 allows it to outrun Modest Venusaur in the sun at +6.
Dragapult is a great teammate, as it's very fast, immune to Fake Out and can use Surf to trigger both Steam Engine and Weakness Policy. In turn, Coalossal can check the Ice and Fairy types it's weak to. Grass types like Rillaboom, Kartana and Venusaur can check the Water and Ground types Coalossal is weak to, while it can check the Fire, Ice and Flying types they are weak to. Venusaur also appreciates Coalossal's ability to set sun with Max Flare. Aqua Jet users like Rapid Strike Urshifu, Primarina and Inteleon make good teammates to quickly trigger Steam Engine. Urshifu can trigger it through Protect thanks to Unseen Fist, while Primarina and Inteleon both have low attack stats so the move won't do much damage. Primarina can also work on Trick Room teams. All 3 appreciate Coalossal's ability to check Grass types, and in Urshifu's case, Flying and Fairy types. Lastly, Trick Room setters like Dusclops, Cresselia and Hatterene are helpful to either keep it from going up or to abuse Coalossal's own low Speed before Steam Engine activates. Dusclops can also trigger Coalossal's Weakness Policy with Bulldoze.
In general, you'll want to Gigantamax as soon as possible, as Coalossal's effectiveness depends on getting as much done in that forme as possible. Coalossol can be deployed as an early game wallbreaker or a late game sweeper.
But that's where the good news stops. While its typing is great offensively, defensively it packs weaknesses to common Water, Ground and Fighting attacks, with the former 2 being 4X. It needs quite a lot of support to do its job as well, as it needs a teammate that can reliably hit it with a Water move, a teammate with Trick Room to either set or counter set it, and a teammate that can reliably handle opposing Water types. Base 80 / 80 attacking stats are average at best, so if Coalossal doesn't get to trigger its Weakness Policy it won't be hitting too hard. Meteor Beam and Solar Beam both take a turn to charge, though the latter can be negated by Sun, making them unreliable outside Gigantamax. It also faces stiff competition from other Weakness Policy users like Metagross, Glastrier, Stakataka and Tyranitar, which are all more consistent Pokemon overall and thus easier to fit on teams.
Just Add Water (Steam Engine Sweeper)
Coalossal-G Max @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Steam Engine
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 Spe
Level: 50
Modest Nature
- Meteor Beam
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Protect
Meteor Beam is Coalossal's strongest STAB, turning into a monstrous 140 base power G Max Volcalith when Gigantamaxed. Heat Wave is a consistent STAB that gets around Follow Me and Rage Powder. Its max version also sets Sun, letting Coalossal hit even harder and reducing its Water weakness. Solar Beam hits opposing Ground and Water types, OHKOing Tapu Fini after a boost. The EVs allow Coalossal to outrun Dragapult after Steam Engine has activated, with maximum Special Attack for more power and the rest in HP for bulk. You could invest more into Speed if you wish: 68 Evs allow Coalossal to outrun Choice Scarf Landorus-T at +6, while 132 allows it to outrun Modest Venusaur in the sun at +6.
Dragapult is a great teammate, as it's very fast, immune to Fake Out and can use Surf to trigger both Steam Engine and Weakness Policy. In turn, Coalossal can check the Ice and Fairy types it's weak to. Grass types like Rillaboom, Kartana and Venusaur can check the Water and Ground types Coalossal is weak to, while it can check the Fire, Ice and Flying types they are weak to. Venusaur also appreciates Coalossal's ability to set sun with Max Flare. Aqua Jet users like Rapid Strike Urshifu, Primarina and Inteleon make good teammates to quickly trigger Steam Engine. Urshifu can trigger it through Protect thanks to Unseen Fist, while Primarina and Inteleon both have low attack stats so the move won't do much damage. Primarina can also work on Trick Room teams. All 3 appreciate Coalossal's ability to check Grass types, and in Urshifu's case, Flying and Fairy types. Lastly, Trick Room setters like Dusclops, Cresselia and Hatterene are helpful to either keep it from going up or to abuse Coalossal's own low Speed before Steam Engine activates. Dusclops can also trigger Coalossal's Weakness Policy with Bulldoze.
In general, you'll want to Gigantamax as soon as possible, as Coalossal's effectiveness depends on getting as much done in that forme as possible. Coalossol can be deployed as an early game wallbreaker or a late game sweeper.
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Hello, all. Now that it's been a while since CT has been released, and after the recent Players Cup tournament, I feel the VR could use some updates. Here are my thoughts on some of the mons, and why I feel they should be higher/lower on the rankings.
VR
Metagross: S --> A
Metagross, while strong in early format, has declined in usage as the format progressed and different archetypes were formed. It is no longer as 'meta-defining' as Glastrier/Urshifu-SS/Tapu Fini etc, and is something that has multiple counter plays. While Clear Body with WP is still strong, it currently struggles to face off against the rising popularity of SunRoom, Spectrier, Coalossal, Heatran and G-Moltres, which is why I feel Metagross is no longer 'S Tier'.
Tyranitar: A --> B/C
Once strong during the Dynamax formats, it is a shell of it's former shelf. Sand is struggling to find a place in the format, and is no longer the great threat it once was. Besides the Sand Stream, it is almost always outclassed by Regirock who has greater physical bulk, similar coverage and a better ability in a format where Intimidate is rampant.
Venusaur-Gmax: B --> A
I feel G-Max Venusaur has been the closest thing to being 'broken' in the format, and that hasn't changed in Crown Tundra either. Having a Turn 1 with around six possible viable plays, being able to transform from a Sleep-inducer to a nuke button with residual damage while outspeeding the entire format, it deserves atleast an A rank. G-Max Venusaur is one of those mons you absolutely have to consider when building a team. The only reason I'm not ranking it as 'S Tier' is the specific team requirements to run it efficiently, in the form of Torkoal/Ninetales or Porygon2.
Urshifu-S: A --> S
A splash-able Pokemon that can hit through Protect with guaranteed Critical Hits. Dark + Fighting coverage, and has decent physical bulk. This monster can annihilate non-max Pokemon (And deal some huge of damage to Max Mons as well) with it's sheer unblockable offensive pressure while ignoring any buffs/de-buffs thanks to Wicked Blow. Dark is a good offensive typing as well. Considering how common it is, and it's ability to sweep late game scenarios, I feel it deserves to be S Tier.
Coalossal-Gmax: C --> B/A
Being able to win two major tournaments in a row is no small task. G-Max Coalossal has proven it isn't merely some one shot gimmick. It is really consistent, and can get the job done. (As long as you don't just Max T1, which is a mistake many players make when piloting the team). The only downside to running Coalossal is; you need some Aqua Jet or some fast Surf user. Support Dragapult and Urshifu-RS is the go-to choice, and the core requires a Rillaboom to better handle bulky Water-types which may hinder Coal's performance, which is the only reason why I'm hesitant to give it a definite A ranking. It should atleast be a B Tier though, considering how consistent the strategy is, and how powerful G-Max Coal is with it's great coverage options and residual damage.
Spectrier: C --> A
Once underrated due to it's lack of a decent special movepool, Spectrier has proven to be a tremendous offensive mon due to it's insanely high SpA stat, and access to Nasty Plot. The recent spike in the ghost horse's popularity, and how it's managing to consistently top online events (Even placing 3rd in Players Cup 2), shows this mon should never be underestimated. Besides being a nuke button, it can interestingly run a support set as well. The Ghost-typing helps a lot to bypass Fake Out, and it gets access to Snarl, Taunt, Will-o-Wisp etc. If you are not prepared, this horse can gallop through your entire team in a few turns.
That's all for now!
VR
Metagross: S --> AMetagross, while strong in early format, has declined in usage as the format progressed and different archetypes were formed. It is no longer as 'meta-defining' as Glastrier/Urshifu-SS/Tapu Fini etc, and is something that has multiple counter plays. While Clear Body with WP is still strong, it currently struggles to face off against the rising popularity of SunRoom, Spectrier, Coalossal, Heatran and G-Moltres, which is why I feel Metagross is no longer 'S Tier'.
Tyranitar: A --> B/COnce strong during the Dynamax formats, it is a shell of it's former shelf. Sand is struggling to find a place in the format, and is no longer the great threat it once was. Besides the Sand Stream, it is almost always outclassed by Regirock who has greater physical bulk, similar coverage and a better ability in a format where Intimidate is rampant.
Venusaur-Gmax: B --> AI feel G-Max Venusaur has been the closest thing to being 'broken' in the format, and that hasn't changed in Crown Tundra either. Having a Turn 1 with around six possible viable plays, being able to transform from a Sleep-inducer to a nuke button with residual damage while outspeeding the entire format, it deserves atleast an A rank. G-Max Venusaur is one of those mons you absolutely have to consider when building a team. The only reason I'm not ranking it as 'S Tier' is the specific team requirements to run it efficiently, in the form of Torkoal/Ninetales or Porygon2.
Urshifu-S: A --> SA splash-able Pokemon that can hit through Protect with guaranteed Critical Hits. Dark + Fighting coverage, and has decent physical bulk. This monster can annihilate non-max Pokemon (And deal some huge of damage to Max Mons as well) with it's sheer unblockable offensive pressure while ignoring any buffs/de-buffs thanks to Wicked Blow. Dark is a good offensive typing as well. Considering how common it is, and it's ability to sweep late game scenarios, I feel it deserves to be S Tier.
Coalossal-Gmax: C --> B/ABeing able to win two major tournaments in a row is no small task. G-Max Coalossal has proven it isn't merely some one shot gimmick. It is really consistent, and can get the job done. (As long as you don't just Max T1, which is a mistake many players make when piloting the team). The only downside to running Coalossal is; you need some Aqua Jet or some fast Surf user. Support Dragapult and Urshifu-RS is the go-to choice, and the core requires a Rillaboom to better handle bulky Water-types which may hinder Coal's performance, which is the only reason why I'm hesitant to give it a definite A ranking. It should atleast be a B Tier though, considering how consistent the strategy is, and how powerful G-Max Coal is with it's great coverage options and residual damage.
Spectrier: C --> AOnce underrated due to it's lack of a decent special movepool, Spectrier has proven to be a tremendous offensive mon due to it's insanely high SpA stat, and access to Nasty Plot. The recent spike in the ghost horse's popularity, and how it's managing to consistently top online events (Even placing 3rd in Players Cup 2), shows this mon should never be underestimated. Besides being a nuke button, it can interestingly run a support set as well. The Ghost-typing helps a lot to bypass Fake Out, and it gets access to Snarl, Taunt, Will-o-Wisp etc. If you are not prepared, this horse can gallop through your entire team in a few turns.
That's all for now!
I think venusaur is fine in B tier. It needs sun support to function at it's best, not to mention it has negative matchups against several of the format's hard hitters (Glastrier, Moltres, Zapdos-K, Thundurus, Landorus, even Celesteela and Kartana somewhat), leading venusaur to either get ko'd early or have to resort to sleep powdering them (some Glastrier and Landorus have carried lum berry as well).
I feel G-Max Venusaur has been the closest thing to being 'broken' in the format, and that hasn't changed in Crown Tundra either. Having a Turn 1 with around six possible viable plays, being able to transform from a Sleep-inducer to a nuke button with residual damage while outspeeding the entire format, it deserves atleast an A rank. G-Max Venusaur is one of those mons you absolutely have to consider when building a team. The only reason I'm not ranking it as 'S Tier' is the specific team requirements to run it efficiently, in the form of Torkoal/Ninetales or Porygon2.
Bananers
V
This is the reason why I feel like we should be running weather ball Venusaur more. It kills some of its checks, and also opposing Venusaurs.
I've been testing Hitmonchan out as a way to deal with common leads that are a problem for my team and it's surprisingly effective - Inner Focus makes it immune to flinch and Intimidate, STAB Close Combat hits hard enough to OHKO anything weak to it that hasn't Dynamaxed, it gets Fake Out and Quick Guard for decent support options, and for this meta it's speed tier is enough for it to outrun a decent chunk of other common Pokémon. Unfortunately it's bulk is pretty atrocious so Focus Sash is almost a requirement and it isn't going to be doing much with any coverage moves, but I think it has a niche and is worth mentioning in the lowest tier.
Bananers
V
Hitmonchan is a cool pick, but if you want an Inner Focus mon with fake out, Quick Guard, and STAB Close Combat, Chan is extremely outclassed by Mienshao. Shao has the exact same moves but better speed with base 105 compared to base 76, better attack with 125 compared to 105, and even better Special Attack with a respectable base 95 (you're still gonna want to run Close Combat tho). Mienshao has worse bulk than Chan but you are running sash on both of them anyways. Now looking at Shao I really need to test it sometime I think it could be solid.
EDIT: Just realized Shao gets Ally Switch too. Now that is interesting.
after players cup 2, there have been signifigant shifts in the meta that I believe the vr should reflect
B --> C
Dracovish has been surprisingly underwhelming in this series, and the tier it's currently in features threats like regigigas, regirock, and venusaur, which are much better than vish, which leads me to think that it should be moved a tier down.
B --> A
Clefairy has shown itself as arguably the best redirector in the metagame, with friend guard and its plentiful support options in helping hand, icy wind, and heal pulse. It has been featured on numerous successful teams, often paired with spectrier. It is the most slappable and versatile redirector, which warrants a jump to A tier
B --> CDracovish has been surprisingly underwhelming in this series, and the tier it's currently in features threats like regigigas, regirock, and venusaur, which are much better than vish, which leads me to think that it should be moved a tier down.
B --> AClefairy has shown itself as arguably the best redirector in the metagame, with friend guard and its plentiful support options in helping hand, icy wind, and heal pulse. It has been featured on numerous successful teams, often paired with spectrier. It is the most slappable and versatile redirector, which warrants a jump to A tier
Updates for the S7 VR:
With Series 8 quickly approaching us, and plenty of meta knowledge gained and evolution taking place, this resource is definitely going to be re-voted on and reworked (discussion is already in the works!) so as we leave the Series behind we have a fully updated set of resources ready for any future events we may host.
Consider it, if you will, a snapshot of what the meta looked like before the Restricted mons came in and started trashing the room. Expect the updates closer to the start of Series 8!
With Series 8 quickly approaching us, and plenty of meta knowledge gained and evolution taking place, this resource is definitely going to be re-voted on and reworked (discussion is already in the works!) so as we leave the Series behind we have a fully updated set of resources ready for any future events we may host.
Consider it, if you will, a snapshot of what the meta looked like before the Restricted mons came in and started trashing the room. Expect the updates closer to the start of Series 8!