GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

[aegon the unlikely]

From my experiences with Meowth in HGSS (I know GSC is a different game, but still) I was thoroughly disappointed. Great Speed means nothing when Persian only has 80 base Attack IIRC which falls off incredibly fast. Couple this with better Normals around the same time and I see no real reason to use it. I remember being unimpressed by its damage output around Pryce.

But you have physical Shadow Ball for Will I guess?

base 70 attack, which is even lower (though about the same as furret who has 75 or so so it's not unusable by any means), although persian is in a much better exp. group than tauros and has much better sp. atk to exploit with bite (which comes naturally), so there's that. unlike the big normal types, meowth has a decent capture rate so it should be way easier to chuck a friend ball at one and have them crush stuff with return asap. pay day is also a cool niche i think someone could look into, no other pokemon in this game has that going for them and it could severely reduce pressure on finances in case you wanted to procure a powerful tm from the game corner or wanted to get all the hyper potions you could possibly carry.

physical shadow ball is there for will, correct, and also karen's gengar. houndoom also likely would not enjoy taking returns from this cat, as persian is faster and his attack is higher as well as badge and type boosted to the point of trouncing houndoom's awful defense stat. persian also has screech as a way to ''set up'' on opponents as of level 38, which sounds niche at first but allows him to power through bulky stuff much faster.

at the end of the day, persian's 70 attack may be disappointing but this is a game where all pokemon effectively get a 20% boost to their normal-type attacks, and persian not only gets that boost but also has stab on normal attacks by default. even a 70 attack stat is nothing to sneeze at given the 20% boost and stab working in conjunction, especially given the high base power of headbutt and later on, max friendship return. add to that a move which, to quote bulbapedia, ''(Pay Day) does damage and scatters coins on the ground with a value equal to twice the user's level for each time it is used'', and you have one surprisingly useful pokemon. keep in mind other tier lists already have considered things like sharpedo's surf speed and zigzagoon's pickup + hm utility as draws in their favor, and persian can make you money in arguably the most cash intensive game.

edit: gsc's 20% boost to normal-type attacks is a pretty major difference from hgss and if raticate as well as furret make b, persian should too.

edit 2: after doing the math, i'm not sure if pay day's monetary value is really worth it. a l25 meowth, for instance, would only yield $50 with one use of pay day, and $500 with ten. that's chump change, useful only for buying a poke ball or two. it's possible that money might still accumulate over time and become something massive - you are still earning money by fighting trainers and selling nuggets, after all - but it has to be tested.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

However, since the term "proper testing" was dropped:

When I said that I thought that I'd messed up a bit, but didn't have time to fix it because I'm at work.

By proper test, I mean multiple people running Tauros so we're not based on one run that may have been influenced by things like good IVs.

I should've used "extensive testing".

- Do we do something close to "Minimal battles" "Avoid all Wild Mons, Trainers on Routes are fair for EXP" or "Just play whatevs"
- Also we do ignore Red's final battlefor Tier Lists, right? Otherwise this whole endeavor would be kinda pointless.
- We ignore X Items, but NOT healing items yes?
- How many team members are reasonable for a fair test? I always say 3 Mons is fair - even 4 Mons stretched the EXP to much.
- I am still shook about the SET/SWITCH rule...are you guys sure about that??

I can only vouch for my personal style on these.

1 - All trainer battles. GOAT Platinum taught me to never skip trainers. No wild grinding unless I'm severely underleveled.
2 - Yeah, Kanto... is just not good. Also, you will be underleveled for Red no matter what.
3 - This kind of tier list usually runs 4-6 mons, with 4 being the most common team size.
4 - I personally play on Switch because I like to split my exp evenly between mons, so I switch out every time a mon levels up. No sweeping. Nothing wrong with Set tho.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

the only way to reliably beat red is to spam x-items and knowing when to do so.

i used my magneton with protect + t-wave to outstall pikachu's electric moves which hit ton like a truck, then started setting up x special, x speed, x accuracy, and x defense while also replenishing pp with elixers and mysteryberry. i then crushed red's entire team with thunder, one-shotted nearly everyone iirc but venusaur whom i was able to foil by using rain dance to counter sunny day and protect to dodge solarbeam after it was charged.

copious full restores were also spammed. also, it was a nuzlocke run and i lost two of my pokemon before even fighting blue.

 

[Xator_Nova]

Whitney

Quilava Lv21 (w/Pink Bow | Berry): Quilava's Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank. Quilava's max power Fury Cutter 2HKOs Miltank. Quilava's 4th Rollout 2HKOs Miltank. This means that Quilava either needs the Fury Cutter TM or the Rollout TM for a successful match-up.

Rattata Lv19 (w/Pink Bow): Hyper Fang 2HKOs Clefairy and 4HKOs Miltank so it's out of reach (at Lv20, Raticate 3HKOs Miltank with Hyper Fang).

Furret Lv19 (w/Pink Bow | Berry): Furret 2HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank with Headbutt. Furret's max power Fury Cutter 2HKOs Miltank. Furret's 4th Rollout 2HKOs Miltank (3rd if Furret used Defense Curl).

Rival (Ecruteak City):

Quilava Lv24 (w/Charcoal): Ember 3HKOs Haunter. Strength 4HKOs Croconaw while its Water Gun 4HKOs back. Ember OHKOs Magnemite. Strength 2HKOs Zubat. A sweep is unlikely since Quilava can defeat Croconaw one-on-one, but not if it has been damaged prior, and Curse can disrupt the sweep. Haunter gets taken down more easily with the Dig TM.

Raticate Lv21 (w/Pink Bow): Raticate can't defeat Haunter without a Ground-type TM. With the Dig TM, Raticate 2HKOs Haunter and OHKOs Magnemite. Raticate 3HKOs Croconaw, 3HKOs Magnemite and OHKOs Zubat with Strength.

Furret Lv21 (w/Pink Bow): Furret 5HKOs Haunter with Surf, but it's not suggested due to Curse. With the Dig TM, Furret 2HKOs Haunter and OHKOs Magnemite. Furret 3HKOs Croconaw, 3HKOs Magnemite and OHKOs Zubat with Strength. Fire Punch 2HKOs Magnemite.

Tauros Lv17 (w/Pink Bow): Tauros can't defeat Haunter. Tauros 3HKOs Croconaw and Magnemite, and OHKOs Zubat with Strength.

Morty

Quilava Lv27: Ember 2HKOs Gastly and both Haunters, and it 4HKOs Gengar. Dig OHKOs everyone sans Gengar, who is 2HKO'd. Rollout can OHKO everyone from the 3rd turn onwards.

Raticate Lv25: Dig OHKOs everyone sans Gengar, who is 2HKO'd. You need the Dig TM for an efficient clear. Raticate outspeeds everyone.

Furret Lv25: Surf 2HKOs Gastly, 3HKOs Haunter and 5HKOs Gengar. Dig OHKOs everyone sans Gengar, who is 2HKO'd. Rollout can OHKO everyone from the 3rd turn onwards (2nd after Defense Curl). Furret has a speed tie with Gengar.

Tauros Lv20: Tauros 3HKOs Gastly with Surf, and it 7HKOs Gengar. It's largely inefficient.

Chuck

Quilava Lv32 (w/ Charcoal): Quilava 2HKOs Primeape with Flame Wheel. Quilava 5HKOs Poliwrath with Strength while Poliwrath has Surf, making a clear unlikely.

Raticate Lv30 (w/Pink Bow): Raticate 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath with Strength. Beating both is unlikely because Poliwrath's Dynamic Punch is almost a OHKO.

Furret Lv30 (w/Pink Bow): Furret 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath with Strength. Beating both is unlikely because Poliwrath's Dynamic Punch is almost a OHKO.

Tauros Lv26 (w/Pink Bow): Tauros 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath with Strength. Beating both is unlikely because Poliwrath's Dynamic Punch is almost a OHKO.

Pryce

Quilava Lv32 (w/ Charcoal): Quilava 2HKOs Seel with Strength. Quilava 4HKOs Dewgong and 2HKOs Piloswine with Flame Wheel.

Raticate Lv30 (w/ Pink Bow): Raticate 2HKOs Seel and Dewgong and 3HKOs Piloswine with Strength.

Furret Lv30 (w/ Pink Bow): Furret 2HKOs Seel and Dewgong and 3HKOs Piloswine with Strength.

Tauros Lv26 (w/ Pink Bow): Tauros 2HKOs Seel and Dewgong and 3HKOs Piloswine with Strength.

Jasmine

Quilava Lv32 (w/ Charcoal): Quilava OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix with Flame Wheel.

Raticate Lv30 (w/ Soft Sand): Raticate 3HKOs Magnemite with Strength and OHKOs them with the Dig TM. Raticate 5HKOs Steelix with Dig. Sadly, both Magnemite and Steelix 2HKO.

Furret Lv30 (w/ Mystic Water): Furret 3HKOs Magnemite with Strength, and OHKOs them with the Dig TM. Furret 3HKOs Steelix with Surf. Sadly, both Magnemite and Steelix 2HKO.

Tauros Lv26 (w/ Mystic Water): Tauros 3HKOs Magnemite with Strength. Tauros 3HKOs Steelix with Surf. Sadly, both Magnemite and Steelix 2HKO.

observations: tauros joins at lv15 and 2hkos already every generic enemy with strength, but this is the same as furret and raticate
they don't really perform differently from one another but furret and raticate have more tools to target enemies that normal type attacks can't hit adequately. starting to think tauros is indeed worse than both
tauros's advantage however is its bulk, since it can stand certain hits that furret and raticate can't (namely poliwrath's dynamic punch). it doesn't mean much against generics, but it has made the difference situationally against bosses

 

[aegon the unlikely]

i hope to test cyndaquil, bellsprout, stantler, and wooper.

my plan is to use cyndaquil this time without the x5 rare candy amp and instead with tms like rollout/fury cutter and dig (which i didn't do before).

i hope to capture a bellsprout from route 33 after beating falkner to level in union cave.

i hope to capture stantler asap after beating whitney and then stick strength on them.

i hope to capture wooper after i get access to surf and catch the high leveled ones in either union cave or (preferably) the ruins of alph.

edit: honestly, i'm hesitant to try wooper/quagsire at this point, given that i plan to use dig on cyndaquil. anyone got any ideas on what i can test? a fourth pokemon that's rock or ground type and aligns well with my team would be good. maybe i will go with a second normal type, persian.

shadow ball + pay day + return + icy wind should carry me pretty far i think.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

edit: honestly, i'm hesitant to try wooper/quagsire at this point, given that i plan to use dig on cyndaquil. anyone got any ideas on what i can test? a fourth pokemon that's rock or ground type and aligns well with my team would be good. maybe i will go with a second normal type, persian.

There are a bunch of Water-types available that you could test. Maybe Tentacruel or Mantine?

I'd avoid doubling down on Normals since they'll overlap like crazy.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

There are a bunch of Water-types available that you could test. Maybe Tentacruel or Mantine?

I'd avoid doubling down on Normals since they'll overlap like crazy.

eh, i think i'll go with wooper/quagsire (depending on which one i can actually catch) after all lol. i don't think quagsire will miss dig too much, by that point surf + rain dance + ice punch can clean house until earthquake. i remember wooper having kind of a weak period when you catch her initially in crystal, i want to see whether the l20+ versions avoid that prolonged moment of weakness and can contribute against major opponents.

also, i will use the x5 rare candies again on a single mon, although i promise not to use them on quilava or stantler so there are no more issues with them being artificially empowered and what not like there were with my last run. i may use them on quagsire this time for earlier earthquake access (and unlike the typhlo situation, this shouldn't be a problem given that quaggy doesn't even need the early eq until the elite four or so), this should allow me to evaluate quilava, victreebel, and stantler in a way this forum won't mind. i'm still determined to prove that the rare candy amp is a net benefit for the full team with the broken level curve and that my team will still catch up to e4 levels before i even fight the e4.

and i will say again that the argument against the x5 rare candy use is an absolutely dumb no good pointless cruel quixotic one.

 

[Random Passerby]

There are a bunch of Water-types available that you could test. Maybe Tentacruel or Mantine?

I'd avoid doubling down on Normals since they'll overlap like crazy.

I think someone should test Chincou. It has pretty good matchups and obtained as soon as you get the Good Rod. I remember it did fairly well although Icy Wind is not that strong so have something else against Dragons.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I think someone should test Chincou. It has pretty good matchups and obtained as soon as you get the Good Rod. I remember it did fairly well although Icy Wind is not that strong so have something else against Dragons.

chinchou can't use icy wind, actually. i don't think chinchou can use any ice-type moves lol this generation.

however, chinchou's water + electric coverage is really good and serves you very well against the post-surf three gyms. chinchou evolves into lanturn at only l27, which in spite of slow exp growth is easy enough to attain if you fight the multitude of non-gym trainers available to you before and after getting surf. if you want more grinding opportunities, fish one out of the olivine docks with a good rod and take chinchou to fight the kimono girls and then do a number on your rival, morty, and other route trainers with hm-surf and eventually spark. get rain dance, get thunder, and you can beat chuck, pryce, and jasmine all pretty handily while also giving clair's kingdra issues (watch out for hyper beam though, it hits lanturn's lower defense).

you don't need thunder for chuck, pryce, or jasmine, but you should get it before fighting clair and by that point should have no issues getting it.

also, lanturn can indulge in parafusion, having thunder wave when you get them as chinchou and picking up confuse ray by level up...

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

also, i will use the x5 rare candies again on a single mon,

 

[aegon the unlikely]

also, chinchou can be a nifty hm user - flash, surf, whirlpool, and waterfall are all within their capability for learning.

also, Volt-Ikazuchi, Xator_Nova, and Random Passerby, i'm on my new testing run and i can confirm cyndaquil with absolutely zero wild experience can level up to l12 within sprout tower itself. in fact, i haven't even completed sprout tower yet (just beat the first two dudes) and i also avoided fighting a few trainers like youngster joey and the bug catchers whom i plan on grinding bellsprout again instead.

i also just beat sprout tower and cyndaquil evolved into quilava at some point between fighting elder li and the first gym trainer in falkner's gym (forgot exactly when, but it was before fighting the second gym trainer in falkner's gym). this means you can easily get quilava before fighting falkner himself and then decimate his flying types - pidgey went down to one ember and pidgeotto to two.

 

[Turdterra]

i will use the x5 rare candies again on a single mon

You seriously don't learn do you? Newsflash that's gonna hurt the mon's tier more than help it, and by this I mean not change. In case it wasn't obvious, item cost, in particular the Rare Candies, is a reliance on outside assets. The analogy that was used best is that they are like TMs. If you use too many, the mon in question can actually be ranked down due to this over reliance. You are wasting probably one of the most valuable items on a Pokemon just so it can have a +5 advantage which yes, that is good, it is also bad in the eyes of the other testers here. That's like saying going +6 on a certain MU makes the Mon good. Yes, it becomes good but the amount of time it took to get to that point makes in actuality, a bad point. It's more or less the same with the Candies.

At this point, Random Passerby I feel a clause on Candies should be made. It's clear there is a lot of Candies that can be obtained and more often than not, they aren't even being used as effectively as they should. We are dumping them all on one Pokemon just so it can have a somewhat better performance during times that it shouldn't even be that high level. If we don't want a candy clause, then maybe a level clause to stop the huge gap created between the Candy Dumped Mon and a Gym Leader's Ace?

Basically, this argument needs to end and not be discussed any further. It's a really dumb argument that shouldn't have even existed. No tester should be dumping 5-6 Candies on any one Pokemon unless it is to see if something could have changed and in this regard it's generally 1 or 2 anyways.

 

[Xator_Nova]

also, Volt-Ikazuchi, Xator_Nova, and Random Passerby, i'm on my new testing run and i can confirm cyndaquil with absolutely zero wild experience can level up to l12 within sprout tower itself. in fact, i haven't even completed sprout tower yet (just beat the first two dudes) and i also avoided fighting a few trainers like youngster joey and the bug catchers whom i plan on grinding bellsprout again instead.

i also just beat sprout tower and cyndaquil evolved into quilava at some point between fighting elder li and the first gym trainer in falkner's gym (forgot exactly when, but it was before fighting the second gym trainer in falkner's gym). this means you can easily get quilava before fighting falkner himself and then decimate his flying types - pidgey went down to one ember and pidgeotto to two.

I don't think anyone said it was impossible. it has more to do with the fact that i've been using three mons in my case - I ended up with cyndaquil at lv10 initially but went back a bit to spread exp a bit better. if you use cyndaquil or chikorita alone then they have no troubles at getting to lv12 with many fights to spare. however, if they need to be at such high level, even if it's possible, I think it doesn't speak that well of them because it means you have to focus on a mon over the other(s). I have used a starter + one mon in the earlygame before, and it was already very tight to get both to lv10+ against falkner.

moreover i feel like facing falkner (whose ace is lv9) at lv12 is being already too overleveled, especially in contrast to the normals who can deal with him at lv10

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I don't think anyone said it was impossible. it has more to do with the fact that i've been using three mons in my case - I ended up with cyndaquil at lv10 initially but went back a bit to spread exp a bit better. if you use cyndaquil or chikorita alone then they have no troubles at getting to lv12 with many fights to spare. however, if they need to be at such high level, even if it's possible, I think it doesn't speak that well of them because it means you have to focus on a mon over the other(s). I have used a starter + one mon in the earlygame before, and it was already very tight to get both to lv10+ against falkner.

moreover i feel like facing falkner (whose ace is lv9) at lv12 is being already too overleveled, especially in contrast to the normals who can deal with him at lv10

i never said anyone did either lol. however, using three mons this early in the game isn't exactly optimal, and i'd even say the same about two mons as well. in fact, assuming we totally forget about grinding in the wild and assuming we're going with a four-mon team at the end of the day, it would be far more efficient to add your second teammate after clearing violet city. your second teammate can quickly catch up to your starter by accumulating experience in route 32 and the union cave, as was the case for my bellsprout whom i added to my team after defeating falkner - no wild grinding required. i'd argue that as contributors to an in-game tier list, we need to consider not only optimal team sizes but also optimizing training itself. johto's bad level curve can be overcome but it requires some thinking and knowing when to add teammates.

i'm also not sure why overleveling past falkner is really a problem to begin with, given that all you're doing is fighting trainers who already exist within violet city and around. you're getting to l12 by fighting and beating these guys, not by grinding in the wild grass. that the normals can deal with him at l10 is a point in their favor, not a point against cyndaquil. this whole anti-overleveling obsession is getting out of control.

given that this tier list explicitly prizes efficiency and given that we are recommending 4 mon teams to everyone as well as punishing backtracks and excessive use of resources, we definitely should be thinking about efficiency in dividing experience as well. before someone says ''b-but then solo run is the most efficient'', it's already pretty clear this tier list isn't meant for such a thing and is to assume a relatively normal playstyle albeit also one that's efficient. delaying the capture and training of certain mons by a bit is consistent with that idea, you're still adding new pokemon to your team and having a blast with them, you're just doing it in a way that allows you to better handle the level curve and opponents.

Random Passerby, my understanding is that this tier list prizes efficiency while also encouraging a ''normal'' playthrough that doesn't involve solo runs, speedrunning, or item spam. am i right or wrong?

You seriously don't learn do you? Newsflash that's gonna hurt the mon's tier more than help it, and by this I mean not change. In case it wasn't obvious, item cost, in particular the Rare Candies, is a reliance on outside assets. The analogy that was used best is that they are like TMs. If you use too many, the mon in question can actually be ranked down due to this over reliance. You are wasting probably one of the most valuable items on a Pokemon just so it can have a +5 advantage which yes, that is good, it is also bad in the eyes of the other testers here. That's like saying going +6 on a certain MU makes the Mon good. Yes, it becomes good but the amount of time it took to get to that point makes in actuality, a bad point. It's more or less the same with the Candies.

At this point, Random Passerby I feel a clause on Candies should be made. It's clear there is a lot of Candies that can be obtained and more often than not, they aren't even being used as effectively as they should. We are dumping them all on one Pokemon just so it can have a somewhat better performance during times that it shouldn't even be that high level. If we don't want a candy clause, then maybe a level clause to stop the huge gap created between the Candy Dumped Mon and a Gym Leader's Ace?

Basically, this argument needs to end and not be discussed any further. It's a really dumb argument that shouldn't have even existed. No tester should be dumping 5-6 Candies on any one Pokemon unless it is to see if something could have changed and in this regard it's generally 1 or 2 anyways.

1. newsflash, you decided to start throwing a fit before reading, didn't you? i'm using the rare candies on quagsire to test if rare candies boost the team's overall levels, not just quagsire's. i already have an idea of how good quagsire is from past runs, the only thing i'm really trying to test is whether the ruins of alph wooper/quagsire isn't much better than the low level ones caught earlier in the game. i'm convinced quagsire should be b minimum, they're basically a worse rse swampert and swampert was a rockstar of a starter.

2. and you're supposed to use outside assets, not leave them to dry...your point? ditto with tms.

3. on what grounds are you saying rare candies are not being used as effectively as they should? what is your argument?

4. funny, i literally suggested using 5 rare candies for a very specific purpose both in this case and in typhlo's case, and y'all screamed over it...at this point it's clear you're being super arbitrary and just saying things without actually backing them up concretely.

 

[Random Passerby]

i never said anyone did either lol. however, using three mons this early in the game isn't exactly optimal, and i'd even say the same about two mons as well. in fact, assuming we totally forget about grinding in the wild and assuming we're going with a four-mon team at the end of the day, it would be far more efficient to add your second teammate after clearing violet city. your second teammate can quickly catch up to your starter by accumulating experience in route 32 and the union cave, as was the case for my bellsprout whom i added to my team after defeating falkner - no wild grinding required. i'd argue that as contributors to an in-game tier list, we need to consider not only optimal team sizes but also optimizing training itself. johto's bad level curve can be overcome but it requires some thinking and knowing when to add and train new teammates.

i'm also not sure why overleveling past falkner is really a problem to begin with, given that all you're doing is fighting trainers who already exist within violet city and around. you're getting to l12 by fighting and beating these guys, not by grinding in the wild grass. that the normals can deal with him at l10 is a point in their favor, not a point against cyndaquil.

I did say we are going with a 4 mon team. However, we are not making sections specifically when to add a mon to your team. Overlevelling is a problem because EXP is limited and by giving it all to one mon, you are effectively making it a solo run but with more steps since you're mostly relying on a single mon on certain sections to "optimise training" . If we are using your argument, why don't we all just use one mon since it is more efficient? Disregard all the mons who come on late routes then.

Just in case my previous post not make it clear, please do not let a mon hog all your consumables such as Rare Candies. It is a strike against the mon to dedicate so much resources to it. I understand that you are passionate about this topic but I do not want to see this topic raised again.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I did say we are going with a 4 mon team. However, we are not making sections specifically when to add a mon to your team. Overlevelling is a problem because EXP is limited and by giving it all to one mon, you are effectively making it a solo run but with more steps since you're mostly relying on a single mon on certain sections to "optimise training" . If we are using your argument, why don't we all just use one mon since it is more efficient? Disregard all the mons who come on late routes then.

Just in case my previous post not make it clear, please do not let a mon hog all your consumables such as Rare Candies. It is a strike against the mon to dedicate so much resources to it. I understand that you are passionate about this topic but I do not want to see this topic raised again.

lol what are you talking about? that experience is limited is exactly why i'm talking about optimizing it. what do you mean, ''solo run but with more steps''? i literally said i and others should keep using 4 mons - the literal opposite of a solo run - just introduce them in ways that don't harm the overall performance of the party. y'all accept that 6 mons drags down the overall performance of your team, so why is it so hard for y'all to accept that adding like 3-4 mons in the literal beginning of the game would have a very similar (if smaller) effect?

are you really giving me that ''why don't we all just use one mon'' argument, bro? are you denying that efficiency is a huge part of this tier list? why does me suggesting a more efficient route to using 4 mons - far more casual as a playstyle - suddenly translate into an argument for a solo run?

for goodness's sake, i'm not going to judge quagsire based on his rare candy performance. all i'm doing is trying to see how the rare candy spam affects the team's average levels and what capturing a high level quagsire in the wild is like - no awkward wooper phase should be a great boon.

also, how exactly is ''using a single mon in certain sections'' a bad thing? you and i both know that's kind of necessary to bring low level teammates up to speed in any playthrough, no matter how many pokemon you have or when you introduce them. are you going to just, idk, let stantler stay l14 in major battles while the rest of your team is l20+ because ''i don't want to use a single mon in certain sections''? or are you going to grind them almost exclusively against enemy trainers until they catch up to the team, which is kind of how normal players do things?

the other thing is that your tier list has few clear limitations or guidelines in the op. like, what kind of ingame tier list are we talking about? you yourself don't even really clarify that people are supposed to use 4 mons in the op. why is overleveling against a major opponent with access to hax and an evolved pokemon ''bad'' when all you're doing is battling trainers in the area? as far as i'm concerned, you should be stronger than your major opponents (and easily can be in many cases) unless it's literally too difficult to the point of being inefficient - e.g. outleveling the entire e4, lance, red, or blue, which would take hours upon hours of extra gameplay and can't be achieved by merely fighting npc trainers.

 

[Turdterra]

are you really giving me that ''why don't we all just use one mon'' argument, bro? are you denying that efficiency is a huge part of this tier list? why does me suggesting a more efficient route to using 4 mons - far more casual as a playstyle - suddenly translate into an argument for a solo run?

We care about efficiency on the tier lists always, but what you are doing is by no means an efficient use of the candies. It's meant to only close gaps or maybe see if you can overcome a range. A concept you are failing to grasp.

Depending on when you get Quag, the level difference isn't much if you get a max level one (24). The range is 15-24 in the Union Cave. It's going to be Post Morty so its actually better to just get Wooper and have a Quag at Whitney. But if you do opt for Wilds, if it is in the higher end 20s, say 21. It needs no candies as its on par with your team. Any lower and you can pop candies in. Regardless, getting a 15 and popping 5 in will be a waste. Also Quag flees and Fast Balls don't work on him. Fast Balls only work on Magnemite and Grimer due to coding issues.

I also recommend you take a step back Aegon. You've already caused a bunch of fire in this thread and you've gone after numerous users who have either A. tried to help you or B. have disagreed with what you are doing (which by this I mean cuss them out and just be a general turd).

Agreed on ending the candy discussions. It leads to nowhere but disagreements.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

We care about efficiency on the tier lists always, but what you are doing is by no means an efficient use of the candies. It's meant to only close gaps or maybe see if you can overcome a range. A concept you are failing to grasp.

Depending on when you get Quag, the level difference isn't much if you get a max level one (24). The range is 15-24 in the Union Cave. It's going to be Post Morty so its actually better to just get Wooper and have a Quag at Whitney. But if you do opt for Wilds, if it is in the higher end 20s, say 21. It needs no candies as its on par with your team. Any lower and you can pop candies in. Regardless, getting a 15 and popping 5 in will be a waste. Also Quag flees and Fast Balls don't work on him. Fast Balls only work on Magnemite and Grimer due to coding issues.

I also recommend you take a step back Aegon. You've already caused a bunch of fire in this thread and you've gone after numerous users who have either A. tried to help you or B. have disagreed with what you are doing (which by this I mean cuss them out and just be a general turd).

Agreed on ending the candy discussions. It leads to nowhere but disagreements.

i. am. not. talking. about. candies. i'm talking about battle experience division. did you even read anything i said to random passerby? maru...

i'm not planning to use rare candies on quag immediately. i plan to bring them to l31 or so and then give them the candies. thanks for the advice about the fleeing quag, i guess i could just go for a high level wooper then. i don't mind waiting post-morty, i don't need wooper before that.

i haven't cussed anyone out. in addition, you're being pretty hypocritical accusing me of throwing fire when y'all have initiated the hostilities - no question about it - and even now, are calling me a ''general turd'' as well as putting words in my mouth. do not speak to me that way again.

disagreements are natural. it's when y'all strawman and refuse to engage with people's arguments or resort to insults that problems happen.

inb4 someone blames me again for you deciding to single out part of my post, misinterpret it, throw a fit, call me a turd, and what not. ridiculous.

 

[Turdterra]

Yes I do read, you stated prior on using 5 candies on Quag, moving off from that however. My interpretation was that you were catching a wild Quag and going to pop candies into its mouth to keep it on par with the team. You shouldn't need to be using candies as much as you are. If you get Mons up until Chuck you should wind up with mons in the high 30's low 40s.

Then do not speak to others as if they are lesser than you. You have gone after others stating that "they don't know much about the game." or something akin as such. You don't know that and we don't know how much you know.

The reason hostilities started was because you made a bad post, got called out on it, and proceeded to get really nasty as it went on. In turn, we got nasty with you. Sure, the stuff was cleared by Passerby but even they stated they didn't know how far you were going with the candies.

We have been engaging with you or have at least tried to. You put up this wall and then fire insults at us. As I stated above, that tends to get returned in kind.

I'm done arguing. I suggest you don't respond and move on. But if you so choose to, so be it.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

The description on Rare Candy is wrong. It should read:

"A candy that is packed with nonsense. It raises the animosity of a single in-game tierlist by one."

Real talk: either ban them or deny their use until the end of the game. Please.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

i'm on my new testing run and i can confirm cyndaquil with absolutely zero wild experience can level up to l12 within sprout tower itself.

Yes, that is fairly easy to do. Matter of fact, it's optimal to actually save the other trainers to other, weaker/disadvantaged team members with Cynda assisting if things get dicey because Sprout Tower is such an optimal place to train it that it eclipses everything else. You get effortless levels and a good chunk of SpA stat. exp/EVs.

I do have to ask tho, could you provide the levels for your other team members after Sprout Tower though? It is best to try and keep things even, y'know?

i never said anyone did either lol. however, using three mons this early in the game isn't exactly optimal, and i'd even say the same about two mons as well.

Hard disagree. You have several good early options like Geodude and Spearow (Which is an S-Tier, mind you.) Having at least 2 mons before Falkner is extremely common.

i'm also not sure why overleveling past falkner is really a problem to begin with, given that all you're doing is fighting trainers who already exist within violet city and around. you're getting to l12 by fighting and beating these guys, not by grinding in the wild grass. that the normals can deal with him at l10 is a point in their favor, not a point against cyndaquil. this whole anti-overleveling obsession is getting out of control.

While going past 9 is not really hard, you can make a reasonable case for an Lv. 11 starter in that battle, especially since your starter will be at least 6 with the mandatory Silver fight, shooting all the way up to 14 is simply ridiculous, at some point you gotta recognize it's overkill.

y'all accept that 6 mons drags down the overall performance of your team, so why is it so hard for y'all to accept that adding like 3-4 mons in the literal beginning of the game would have a very similar (if smaller) effect?

Because, unless you're delaying capture to grab a higher leveled version of said mon, delaying capture makes no sense.
You're missing out on EVs and playtime. Unless otherwise explicitly stated, all mons are supposed to be caught as soon as available.
This is just... natural. You don't see a mon in a casual playthrough and say "Oh, this mon is cool, so I'll catch it, and throw it in the box until I'm done with this gym but delay certain trainers so it can catch up." WTF?

And just to clarify, here's an example of a reasonable capture delay.

You can catch Zubat as early as Dark Cave. However, Dark Cave Zubat is trash and hard to route clear with. However, you can sacrifice availability by capturing Golbat in Mt. Mortar, which comes with better moves and is more battle-ready, but it's missing out on several battles where it would be useful like Bugsy and it's missing out on EVs and Happiness, which means a later evo. This is a negative point towards its efficiency.

It is an option, but it also carries drawbacks that negatively affect its performance.

i. am. not. talking. about. candies. i'm talking about battle experience division.

Look, if you divide the candies as you should, it'll have similar effects that wouldn't lead to this kind of discussion.

Inefficient use of resources, for several reasons that I have stated several times, is not going to lead to efficiency. It just won't happen.

the other thing is that your tier list has few clear limitations or guidelines in the op.

This is a bit of a problem, but it pops up way less than you'd think because several other tier threads exist. Veterans usually know how they work and can infer it just by reading the threads.

The crux of the problem here is you coming through with an idea, getting it shot down by several people, and *still* insisting on that idea.

Dumping all your candy in one mon leads to distortions that make it unfit to deem whether or not it is truly efficient.

For example, Typhlosion and Quagsire would benefit from that massive power boost for similar reasons. Typh gets to evolve and get punches, Quag gets EQ way earlier than it should. Tauros, and Friend Ball Mt. Mortar Golbat also get advantages in different ways, such as quickly catching up to the team and having major happiness boosts for Return and evolution in Golbat's case.

All of these mons can fit in the same team. Who gets the steroids?

This is really an absurd argument and you should've understood that both overleveling to the point of overkill is frowned upon for frankly obvious reasons and that dumping precious, irreplaceable resources in one mon instead of splitting them across the team is also frowned upon for obvious and previously stated reasons.


Now, both you and Turdterra should at least try to de-escalate this argument, not only because it's not worth getting this heated over it, but because it's unnecessary to do so. We can all be more civilized about this or at least attempt to refrain from name-calling and no, I don't care who started it.

Random Passerby please review this and consider adding it to the OP.
As for a Rare Candy Clause, there is no reason for one. Just what it should be common sense.

- Utilizing several, irreplaceable resources on a single mon is inefficient.
It starves the rest of the team from having access to these resources and they're counted against a mon's rank. This goes for one-use TMs, Vitamins Rare Candies, and the like.

Regarding overleveling: In the interest of evaluating level curves and performance fairly and properly, wild grinding should only be done if your team is severely underleveled and it should be noted in testing.
Overleveling is frowned upon and should be avoided whenever possible.

There is no Gen 6 Exp. Share in GSC and it's a game known for being notoriously stingy with experience. There is no reason to overlevel any Pokémon in GSC even if you're only grinding on available trainers. Just go battle the Leader and get it out of the way already.

aegon the unlikely Honestly, there is no reason things should have gotten to this point outside of your sheer stubbornness. You proposed an idea, the majority of people rejected your idea, told you why they were rejecting it, repeatedly, and you're still insisting on it. This is far beyond the point where you should have taken your L, the thread got thoroughly derailed over it. Stop. You're capable of greater contributions than this, like the arguments you presented that led to Tauros and Miltank being re-tested.

 

[Random Passerby]

There is a lot to unpack here. I'm going to break it down and respond slowly.

lol what are you talking about? that experience is limited is exactly why i'm talking about optimizing it. what do you mean, ''solo run but with more steps''? i literally said i and others should keep using 4 mons - the literal opposite of a solo run - just introduce them in ways that don't harm the overall performance of the party. y'all accept that 6 mons drags down the overall performance of your team, so why is it so hard for y'all to accept that adding like 3-4 mons in the literal beginning of the game would have a very similar (if smaller) effect?

Have you considered that I might want to use a Rattata from the beginning of the game instead of adding it later so it would be in my interests to level it up in the Bell Tower so that it can contribute in the Gym later? In that case, it would be important for me to not spend it all on say, Chikorita or Cyndaquil. Otherwise, I might get the idea that Rattata is 100% deadweight instead of being able to do something?

are you really giving me that ''why don't we all just use one mon'' argument, bro? are you denying that efficiency is a huge part of this tier list? why does me suggesting a more efficient route to using 4 mons - far more casual as a playstyle - suddenly translate into an argument for a solo run?

If you are using just one mon, how is it any different from a solo run since you are dedicating all your EXP to that mon?

for goodness's sake, i'm not going to judge quagsire based on his rare candy performance. all i'm doing is trying to see how the rare candy spam affects the team's average levels and what capturing a high level quagsire in the wild is like - no awkward wooper phase should be a great boon.

That clears some things up. The way you worded it makes it seem like you use all your resources which has been pointed out to be inefficient. Also, some extra information.

Wooper

Wooper only really takes off when it evolves at level 20, with Headbutt and Ice Punch provide only a slight improvement in the meantime.

Because of this, it makes me wonder if it's better to just wait until Quagsire is catchable in the wild and use it that way instead. It's sort of hard to say because Wooper is slightly weak at times early-game and it would be convenient to skip this period if possible, but at the same time it does work well as an early-game partner for Cyndaquil (removes Rocks) and Chikorita (beats Fires) and it'll evolve eventually and be much better as a result.

also, how exactly is ''using a single mon in certain sections'' a bad thing? you and i both know that's kind of necessary to bring low level teammates up to speed in any playthrough, no matter how many pokemon you have or when you introduce them. are you going to just, idk, let stantler stay l14 in major battles while the rest of your team is l20+ because ''i don't want to use a single mon in certain sections''? or are you going to grind them almost exclusively against enemy trainers until they catch up to the team, which is kind of how normal players do things?

Normally, players have their mons around similar levels instead of say, Rattata Lv3 and Cyndaquil Lv12.
Yes, Stantler will be used more often to catch up to the rest of the team but that counts as a strike against it as it does to Tauros, Miltank and others unless it has some easy spots to level up quickly. That is why early availability is a boon to many mons since you won't need much time to wait for them to catch up. The exception is when the mon is available later at levels comparable to your party.

the other thing is that your tier list has few clear limitations or guidelines in the op. like, what kind of ingame tier list are we talking about? you yourself don't even really clarify that people are supposed to use 4 mons in the op. why is overleveling against a major opponent with access to hax and an evolved pokemon ''bad'' when all you're doing is battling trainers in the area? as far as i'm concerned, you should be stronger than your major opponents (and easily can be in many cases) unless it's literally too difficult to the point of being inefficient - e.g. out leveling the entire e4, lance, red, or blue, which would take hours upon hours of extra gameplay and can't be achieved by merely fighting npc trainers.

OK, this is my fault. I assumed naively that everyone knew how these threads work. I've amended the OP for this.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

OK, this is my fault. I assumed naively that everyone knew how these threads work. I've amended the OP for this.

I just used the Bold+Italics combo to distinguish the clauses from the rest of the post because it was getting a bit of a wall of text. No need to do it on the OP.

 

[DHR-107]

Enough.

aegon the unlikely Being a massive ten levels over the next boss and then having to backtrack significantly isn't a real win for Cyndaquil. You head all the way across to get levels then have to trek all the way back across the entire map in order to essentially one shot Chuck/Jasmine and do well against Pryce. I don't think I've ever seen anyone talk about Union Cave trainers either... Unless they wanted Lapras I guess? That is a serious amount of backtracking that basically no one ever does (they just do it post game while exploring and boss everything anyway). This makes the run in an of itself hugely inefficient. Your routing overall is kinda strange honestly.

I'm also extremely surprised that Poliwrath with Dynamic Punch actually beat Umbreon. Karen usually spams sand attack like nobodies business.

Turdterra there is no reason for name calling. That goes for everyone as well.

I know its calmed down a lot since the major issues were happening in this thread, but we do try to keep an eye on things. As Random Passerby said lets just chill out a bit and not get quite so bogged down in some of these things. His say is final as its his list.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

There is a lot to unpack here. I'm going to break it down and respond slowly.


Have you considered that I might want to use a Rattata from the beginning of the game instead of adding it later so it would be in my interests to level it up in the Bell Tower so that it can contribute in the Gym later? In that case, it would be important for me to not spend it all on say, Chikorita or Cyndaquil. Otherwise, I might get the idea that Rattata is 100% deadweight instead of being able to do something?



If you are using just one mon, how is it any different from a solo run since you are dedicating all your EXP to that mon?

a few things here.

first of all, i'd say if you wanted to use a rattata from the beginning of the game...you're more than welcome to. the tier list is supposed to guide people to the most efficient path, we're not forcing people to follow that path - nor can we. i'd personally advise you to do one of three things: a) keep your starter's training on hold for the time being and train rattata against the majority of trainers, b) mix some in-grass training in with battling trainers, or c) add rattata itself later, probably at a higher level, from the union cave or some later route. you can get higher level rattata in and around union cave iirc as well as grind them against the trainers, even teaching them mud-slap so they can defeat rock-types. if you've already beaten falkner, you can quickly give your rodent the pink bow if it's a tuesday as well as see them benefit from a 12.5% attack boost. more efficient imho.

secondly, my second pokemon - a bellsprout - wasn't even in my team until after defeating falkner and the sprout tower. i added a bellsprout from one of the routes adjacent to violet city, where you can find them at slightly higher levels. this also was around the same time i had access to the miracle seed, as the guy who gives it to you will only do so after you beat falkner and get the odd egg from professor elm's aide. this is also the time when i get access to union cave's hikers + slowpoke trainer and the fishermen in route 32, which means easy grinding for sprout.

i'm not using just one mon, my man. i'm using one mon for the time being, and that's okay given it's like the literal beginning of the game. right after falkner i picked up my bellsprout anyway, and ever since then bellsprout and quilava have been fighting more or less side-by-side against foes. i will admit i see your and Xator_Nova's points about cyndaquil, i just believe this is the more efficient route to spreading experience. should we not be encouraging people to keep their levels closer to or even above that of the bosses if it can be done easily and with negligible resource use, wild grinding, and constraints? i think we should, excepting dudes like red and lance ofc.

Yes, that is fairly easy to do. Matter of fact, it's optimal to actually save the other trainers to other, weaker/disadvantaged team members with Cynda assisting if things get dicey because Sprout Tower is such an optimal place to train it that it eclipses everything else. You get effortless levels and a good chunk of SpA stat. exp/EVs.

I do have to ask tho, could you provide the levels for your other team members after Sprout Tower though? It is best to try and keep things even, y'know?



Hard disagree. You have several good early options like Geodude and Spearow (Which is an S-Tier, mind you.) Having at least 2 mons before Falkner is extremely common.



While going past 9 is not really hard, you can make a reasonable case for an Lv. 11 starter in that battle, especially since your starter will be at least 6 with the mandatory Silver fight, shooting all the way up to 14 is simply ridiculous, at some point you gotta recognize it's overkill.



Because, unless you're delaying capture to grab a higher leveled version of said mon, delaying capture makes no sense.
You're missing out on EVs and playtime. Unless otherwise explicitly stated, all mons are supposed to be caught as soon as available.
This is just... natural. You don't see a mon in a casual playthrough and say "Oh, this mon is cool, so I'll catch it, and throw it in the box until I'm done with this gym but delay certain trainers so it can catch up." WTF?

And just to clarify, here's an example of a reasonable capture delay.

You can catch Zubat as early as Dark Cave. However, Dark Cave Zubat is trash and hard to route clear with. However, you can sacrifice availability by capturing Golbat in Mt. Mortar, which comes with better moves and is more battle-ready, but it's missing out on several battles where it would be useful like Bugsy and it's missing out on EVs and Happiness, which means a later evo. This is a negative point towards its efficiency.

It is an option, but it also carries drawbacks that negatively affect its performance.



Look, if you divide the candies as you should, it'll have similar effects that wouldn't lead to this kind of discussion.

Inefficient use of resources, for several reasons that I have stated several times, is not going to lead to efficiency. It just won't happen.



This is a bit of a problem, but it pops up way less than you'd think because several other tier threads exist. Veterans usually know how they work and can infer it just by reading the threads.

The crux of the problem here is you coming through with an idea, getting it shot down by several people, and *still* insisting on that idea.

Dumping all your candy in one mon leads to distortions that make it unfit to deem whether or not it is truly efficient.

For example, Typhlosion and Quagsire would benefit from that massive power boost for similar reasons. Typh gets to evolve and get punches, Quag gets EQ way earlier than it should. Tauros, and Friend Ball Mt. Mortar Golbat also get advantages in different ways, such as quickly catching up to the team and having major happiness boosts for Return and evolution in Golbat's case.

All of these mons can fit in the same team. Who gets the steroids?

This is really an absurd argument and you should've understood that both overleveling to the point of overkill is frowned upon for frankly obvious reasons and that dumping precious, irreplaceable resources in one mon instead of splitting them across the team is also frowned upon for obvious and previously stated reasons.


Now, both you and Turdterra should at least try to de-escalate this argument, not only because it's not worth getting this heated over it, but because it's unnecessary to do so. We can all be more civilized about this or at least attempt to refrain from name-calling and no, I don't care who started it.

Random Passerby please review this and consider adding it to the OP.
As for a Rare Candy Clause, there is no reason for one. Just what it should be common sense.

- Utilizing several, irreplaceable resources on a single mon is inefficient.
It starves the rest of the team from having access to these resources and they're counted against a mon's rank. This goes for one-use TMs, Vitamins Rare Candies, and the like.

Regarding overleveling: In the interest of evaluating level curves and performance fairly and properly, wild grinding should only be done if your team is severely underleveled and it should be noted in testing.
Overleveling is frowned upon and should be avoided whenever possible.

There is no Gen 6 Exp. Share in GSC and it's a game known for being notoriously stingy with experience. There is no reason to overlevel any Pokémon in GSC even if you're only grinding on available trainers. Just go battle the Leader and get it out of the way already.

aegon the unlikely Honestly, there is no reason things should have gotten to this point outside of your sheer stubbornness. You proposed an idea, the majority of people rejected your idea, told you why they were rejecting it, repeatedly, and you're still insisting on it. This is far beyond the point where you should have taken your L, the thread got thoroughly derailed over it. Stop. You're capable of greater contributions than this, like the arguments you presented that led to Tauros and Miltank being re-tested.

1. i didn't have any fighting pokemon in my team apart from cyndaquil - i caught a pidgey and hoppip for future hm use purposes, but that's it. i added bellsprout to my team after beating falkner and the sprout tower, which was also when i picked up a pink bow and miracle seed.

2. except i'm not convinced dividing the candies will have the same effect. even if they do have the same effect, i'd argue your team would benefit from the power level increase during the mid-game than at any other point in the game. i'm done talking about candies here, given how some of the people here have started flaming me and falsely, hypocritically accusing me of ''having a go at others''. if you still want to discuss this, feel free to pm me, but i'd rather not ''derail'' the thread any more than you and others are accusing me of doing.

3. lol. pretty sure spearow is considered s-tier because of the traded one (i def believe untraded spearow isn't s-tier). geodude can be caught in the union cave at higher levels and immediately put to work there against the hikers and firebreathers for a quick level up anyway, which is my point.