GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

[Random Passerby]

EDIT 2: starting to get convinced of snubbull (crystal) A tier because of the above calculations. it even learns bite for ghosts, ice punch for rock|grounds and fire punch for steels without the need of one-use or expensive TMs. why is it C?

It was at C when I took over the thread. They probably forgot Snubbull can be obtained earlier in Crystal. I tried raising it but nobody supports it so it's still there.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

i have battled every optional trainer in the game so far, otherwise my team would be under the 30s, like it has already happened to me once

so what's going on? these levels are scaring me lol.

It was at C when I took over the thread. They probably forgot Snubbull can be obtained earlier in Crystal. I tried raising it but nobody supports it so it's still there.

i do, and i'm willing to test snubbull once i'm done hopefully.

i will say that snubbull should be raised to b in the interim, it's criminal to put them a full tier below raticate and furret lol.

 

[ASMRxism]

Better to take time leveling up than getting walloped by an opponent you could've easily beaten by...leveling up, i say. besides, you need time for everything, and if you want to argue against time, we may as well make this a speedrun...after all, that's the fastest kind of run there is.

Minor level grinding is safer, and less likely to waste time/money blacking out, but it's also even better still if you can beat the boss with strong super effective moves while underleveled.
I think there's a middle ground between racing through while skipping trainers and delaying the next boss fight until you're evenly leveled.

It's hard to define what a typical playthrough is since these games are so familiar to us, but as unlikely as it is, imagine someone was playing this game for the first time and just played it blind. If you didn't know what level each gym leader's team would be, what level would your Pokemon probably be when you faced them if you simply followed the natural flow of the game?

That said, I also felt the Sprout Tower skip to be unusual, since I think a typical playthrough would be likely to go to Sprout Tower since it's right there, unlike, say, Union Cave which is totally out of the way and not an intuitive place to go while exploring. I understand the concept behind excluding it, but I also feel this contradicts a typical experience.

but damage calculations are part of the whole picture, so excluding them is not a great idea. if i can do more damage with aipom than furret more easily (or more efficiently)...why should i not consider aipom above furret in at least that regard? why should that be forgotten?

Damage calculations are a part of the whole picture, but these particular calculations aren't, as I'll explain in my answer to your next point:

6) why wouldn't they be 6 levels higher though for the same experience? curious.

If they were one-Pokemon parties, they'd be 6 levels higher at the same EXP. However, they are members of teams of multiple Pokemon. To be 6 levels higher at the same time (or, at least proportionately higher level at the same time), the player would have to evenly distribute EXP, not levels, which I don't think most players would do (Aipom/Tauros got 1000 EXP, time to train my next party member for 1000 exp). What I think is more common is that they evenly distribute levels (once Aipom/Tauros levels, then it's time to put the next teammate at the start of the party).

Assuming this is the more common way to play Pokemon games (which I'd say is more likely than tracking and dividing EXP equally and maintaining a team of uneven party levels) this does make a difference, but not the 6 level difference that's being used here. The math is more complicated than one exp track for one Pokemon because it's for the whole party.

Practically speaking, in a level-balanced run this won't just mean that Aipom is higher level than Tauros would be. It means the average level of a party with Aipom will be higher than a Tauros party because Tauros will have slowed the entire team's progress, as you've said. But Aipom itself won't be six levels higher than a Tauros at the same point of the game; you'd have (Tauros EXP - Aipom EXP) worth of extra EXP split among the rest of your party at any given time, not all get allocated to Aipom itself in a normal playthrough.

Depending on the EXP rates of the rest of the party, the effect could vary widely, but assuming the rest of the team has average EXP rates, I'd guess (emphasis on guess) that the difference would be only an average of 1-2 levels which could be significant and is worth considering (EXP rates is and should be considered a pro or con for every Pokemon), but is not producing the 6 level difference being used.

This is my criticism of the damage calculations being used, as they seem to be an overvaluation of fast vs. slow EXP. Damage calculations shouldn't be ignored or forgotten (obviously. I never said that). However, those particular calcs are describing a situation that isn't actually happening, so they're not actually helpful, and drawing conclusions based on them would be misleading.

You could draw other conclusions as well; the same math could be used to say that Aipom needs to be six levels higher than Tauros to match its damage. It also leaves out that Tauros will have more Stat EXP (or whatever EVs are called in gen 2) at the same level, and also ignores Aipom vs. Tauros's bulk when the don't OHKO an opponent. It's just data in a vacuum that isn't being used to draw practical conclusions about real scenarios.

7) bruh, i'm bolding and italicizing to get my point across. it's more ''efficient'' lol. y'all are the ones attacking my character, whereas all i've done is attack your arguments (which is kind of justified given our mutual goal), and it's been constructive if harsh so far. i want the same thing y'all do, which is to make this a good tier list that players can benefit from on their adventure and also enjoy doing it.

The character criticisms started based on your reaction to people's initial criticisms of your arguments. You're focusing too much on the part about font, the actual things you say are very frequently needlessly unpleasant and rude regardless of formatting. Whether or not you accept it, that is how you've been perceived by multiple people in this thread. But whatever, this isn't what this thread is about and I'm really not interested in discussing social skills on a Pokemon forum. Just wanted to say my piece.

8) are there any tier placements you think should change? i think weepinbell's early evolution access (evolves at l21) plus quick access to the leaf stone upon hitting goldenrod and tm-return (albeit you might need to fight whitney's gym and get a haircut or two first) are some really cool perks that, its other issues notwithstanding, make it deserving of a b-ranking imo. it can hit hard enough with return and growth-vine whip combos until it picks up sludge bomb, and sleep powder is really clutch for a lot of matchups as well as capturing low catch rate mons like stantler. i'm still testing them out, though the fact they can potentially sweep whitney - sleep powder the clefairy and build up some growths then go to town - is amazing.

In general, I think all the Crystal stone Pokemon could use reevaluation because the stones are not hard to get at all; just delete all numbers besides the stone people and RNG should give you the stone by the time evolution is appropriate through normal gameplay.

Also, I feel like the stone evolutions in GS should be lower. I haven't tested it but bringing a Growlithe to Lt. Surge seems like it's basically one tier above "unobtainable until postgame".

As for Victreebel, I could see it going either way. It has the most Grass-type problem ever: Vine Whip sucks and Sleep Powder rules. What would really be interesting is comparing a level 21 (or so) Victreebel to a Weepinbell that waits til level 42 for Razor Leaf. What shortcomings does Weepinbell have that Victreebel overcomes? What benefit does Razor Leaf provide that Vine Whip lacks until Giga Drain?

If you weren't using Cyndaquil, I'd say Crystal Growlithe could use some attention. Move Power being so low hurts, but Flame Wheel, Bite and Dig is good coverage, stats are high including bulk to afford missing OHKOs, and its competition as a fire type besides Cyndaquil in Crystal is basically <footage not found>. I used one a while ago and liked it.

 

[Xator_Nova]

That said, I also felt the Sprout Tower skip to be unusual, since I think a typical playthrough would be likely to go to Sprout Tower since it's right there, unlike, say, Union Cave which is totally out of the way and not an intuitive place to go while exploring. I understand the concept behind excluding it, but I also feel this contradicts a typical experience.

regarding this, it's perfectly acceptable if your mon is weak to grass, for example if your starter is totodile, or you're using geodude | onix | crystal!poliwag. in the scenario where i'm only using one of those mons and the rest of my party comes after falkner, then i'd choose to skip sprout tower. it's good because

a) they can defeat falkner without the experience of that place
b) the experience can be preserved for another mon (such as gift spearow)

in that sense they're more efficient, but that's because they don't need to level up that much - that they have difficulties doing so is just a coincidence

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Minor level grinding is safer, and less likely to waste time/money blacking out, but it's also even better still if you can beat the boss with strong super effective moves while underleveled.

I think there's a middle ground between racing through while skipping trainers and delaying the next boss fight until you're evenly leveled.

agreed on all counts. i just don't think mons should be penalized for grinding, only a few mons generally don't need the grinding.

It's hard to define what a typical playthrough is since these games are so familiar to us, but as unlikely as it is, imagine someone was playing this game for the first time and just played it blind. If you didn't know what level each gym leader's team would be, what level would your Pokemon probably be when you faced them if you simply followed the natural flow of the game?

honestly, this is why i think we should really do some kind of poll to figure out how people exactly play this game. do most people really fight nearly every trainer they see or are they more willing to avoid some of those trainers? this forum should be the perfect place to ask people this.

myself, i can confirm i would much rather fight trainers if they're literally in my path. i'm pretty sure that's what my child self - essentially someone who's never played pokemon before, before beating crystal - did. if they're out of the way, though, like union cave or route 45? probably not...

That said, I also felt the Sprout Tower skip to be unusual, since I think a typical playthrough would be likely to go to Sprout Tower since it's right there, unlike, say, Union Cave which is totally out of the way and not an intuitive place to go while exploring. I understand the concept behind excluding it, but I also feel this contradicts a typical experience.

exactly! thank you. sprout tower is literally right there lol. agreed on union cave as well, though i think we should at least let people know that place exists and is a great way to bring mons up to speed if needs be. i took a look at the other tier lists and they have all sorts of helpful information.

Damage calculations are a part of the whole picture, but these particular calculations aren't, as I'll explain in my answer to your next point:

If they were one-Pokemon parties, they'd be 6 levels higher at the same EXP. However, they are members of teams of multiple Pokemon. To be 6 levels higher at the same time (or, at least proportionately higher level at the same time), the player would have to evenly distribute EXP, not levels, which I don't think most players would do (Aipom/Tauros got 1000 EXP, time to train my next party member for 1000 exp). What I think is more common is that they evenly distribute levels (once Aipom/Tauros levels, then it's time to put the next teammate at the start of the party).

the thing is, i agree with that idea.

even then, however? if your aipom levels up faster, that just means you would level up your other pokemon...faster. that's pretty good imho.

Assuming this is the more common way to play Pokemon games (which I'd say is more likely than tracking and dividing EXP equally and maintaining a team of uneven party levels) this does make a difference, but not the 6 level difference that's being used here. The math is more complicated than one exp track for one Pokemon because it's for the whole party.

Practically speaking, in a level-balanced run this won't just mean that Aipom is higher level than Tauros would be. It means the average level of a party with Aipom will be higher than a Tauros party because Tauros will have slowed the entire team's progress, as you've said. But Aipom itself won't be six levels higher than a Tauros at the same point of the game; you'd have (Tauros EXP - Aipom EXP) worth of extra EXP split among the rest of your party at any given time, not all get allocated to Aipom itself in a normal playthrough.

Depending on the EXP rates of the rest of the party, the effect could vary widely, but assuming the rest of the team has average EXP rates, I'd guess (emphasis on guess) that the difference would be only an average of 1-2 levels which could be significant and is worth considering (EXP rates is and should be considered a pro or con for every Pokemon), but is not producing the 6 level difference being used.

fair. don't really disagree.

This is my criticism of the damage calculations being used, as they seem to be an overvaluation of fast vs. slow EXP. Damage calculations shouldn't be ignored or forgotten (obviously. I never said that). However, those particular calcs are describing a situation that isn't actually happening, so they're not actually helpful, and drawing conclusions based on them would be misleading.

You could draw other conclusions as well; the same math could be used to say that Aipom needs to be six levels higher than Tauros to match its damage. It also leaves out that Tauros will have more Stat EXP (or whatever EVs are called in gen 2) at the same level, and also ignores Aipom vs. Tauros's bulk when the don't OHKO an opponent. It's just data in a vacuum that isn't being used to draw practical conclusions about real scenarios

how does tauros have more stat exp? aipom probably would, they've been around longer lol.

i don't think stat exp has anything to do with exp groups, they're separate. as for the other stuff like tauros being bulkier, you're right about that too, but i think offense is more ''efficient'' in this game than a more defensive playstyle. i remember that being argued in earlier iterations.

The character criticisms started based on your reaction to people's initial criticisms of your arguments. You're focusing too much on the part about font, the actual things you say are very frequently needlessly unpleasant and rude regardless of formatting. Whether or not you accept it, that is how you've been perceived by multiple people in this thread. But whatever, this isn't what this thread is about and I'm really not interested in discussing social skills on a Pokemon forum. Just wanted to say my piece.

what have i said that is ''frequently needlessly unpleasant''? genuinely curious. dazzle me.

and multiple people...multiple people who resorted to personal attacks just because i dared to question their orthodoxy on rare candies?

the proof's in the pudding, and i'm not the instigator according to it.

In general, I think all the Crystal stone Pokemon could use reevaluation because the stones are not hard to get at all; just delete all numbers besides the stone people and RNG should give you the stone by the time evolution is appropriate through normal gameplay.

agreed completely. i'm working on bellsprout for now, though i think b-tier is fine for poliwag -> poliwrath.

Also, I feel like the stone evolutions in GS should be lower. I haven't tested it but bringing a Growlithe to Lt. Surge seems like it's basically one tier above "unobtainable until postgame".

true lol. i also feel we need to really talk about kanto, it's the elephant in the room. do we or do we not treat it as the main game?

if we do, i honestly feel we should actually talk about red. no sense in addressing kanto without him.

if not, these pokemon needn't be tiered at all.

As for Victreebel, I could see it going either way. It has the most Grass-type problem ever: Vine Whip sucks and Sleep Powder rules. What would really be interesting is comparing a level 21 (or so) Victreebel to a Weepinbell that waits til level 42 for Razor Leaf. What shortcomings does Weepinbell have that Victreebel overcomes? What benefit does Razor Leaf provide that Vine Whip lacks until Giga Drain?

eh, i don't think waiting till l42 for razor leaf is a great idea, m8. that's pretty much when you're at the heels of the elite four, which is also when you get the solarbeam tm anyhow and you also have sludge bomb at this point. much better to evolve bellsprout all the way pronto to take advantage of stats. razor leaf definitely does quite a bit more damage (55 + 25% chance of criticals > 35) so getting it early would've been great though.

If you weren't using Cyndaquil, I'd say Crystal Growlithe could use some attention. Move Power being so low hurts, but Flame Wheel, Bite and Dig is good coverage, stats are high including bulk to afford missing OHKOs, and its competition as a fire type besides Cyndaquil in Crystal is basically <footage not found>. I used one a while ago and liked it.

i used growlithe too - as part of a 4 or 5 mon ensemble (so not too far from the recommendation) - and i can confirm that they're really good!

they ace sprout tower with bite, do decently against falkner (watch out for mud-slap though), defeat bugsy soundly by 3hkoing scyther and ohkoing the others, can bite morty's ghosts or dig for a lot of damage, embers jasmine, muscles through pryce with either fire blast + strength/return or ember + strength/return depending on availability, and can hit clair pretty hard with strength/return off 110 base attack and 26% normal boost.

they also can break will in half with sunny day + bite + fire blast, raze koga to the ground, and can more or less break through karen (you might want help for umbreon) solidly the same as will. you don't even need fire blast the tm until the elite four, personally, ember was more than enough for beating jasmine. you can get the fire stone really early from that schoolboy near the sudowoodo, so arcanine before whitney is possible.

i'm gonna say growlithe is a b-tier at worst (please don't be offended) and only because their exp. growth suck.

also, if you wanted competition for cyndaquil in crystal, flareon is there and also really good in their own right. a nuzlocke showed me that...

my thoughts on a few stone mons:

flareon -> b (basically growlithe but appears later, grows much faster, exchanges speed for even higher attack, and can use shadow ball - however, needs fire blast tm to do any fire-type damage any time soon - fire stone available before eevee themselves incidentally and early on)

vaporeon -> a (learns the ice-type aurora beam naturally at l35 or l37, can pick up surf almost immediately and the water stone is pretty much next to ecruteak city if you have fisherman tully's number, can pick up bite at l30 if evolved later and be taught rain dance to be a team-washing nuke)

jolteon -> c (can be evolved from eevee early but better to wait till l30 to pick up bite, needs tm thunder do electric-type damage however and rain dance to make thunder not miss like a lot, doesn't have the versatility and power of their fellow eons and thus is hit hard here - on the other hand, rain + thunder + its fearsome speed can still make them a useful mon to deploy against will, koga, and lance but not much help in gyms)

sunflora -> ??? (want to try them)

 

[ASMRxism]

regarding this, it's perfectly acceptable if your mon is weak to grass, for example if your starter is totodile, or you're using geodude | onix | crystal!poliwag. in the scenario where i'm only using one of those mons and the rest of my party comes after falkner, then i'd choose to skip sprout tower. it's good because

a) they can defeat falkner without the experience of that place
b) the experience can be preserved for another mon (such as gift spearow)

in that sense they're more efficient, but that's because they don't need to level up that much - that they have difficulties doing so is just a coincidence

Yeah, true. I think both going to Sprout Tower and skipping it are both reasonable. I don't think either option should be necessarily excluded from consideration or considered mandatory.

honestly, this is why i think we should really do some kind of poll to figure out how people exactly play this game. do most people really fight nearly every trainer they see or are they more willing to avoid some of those trainers? this forum should be the perfect place to ask people this.

Not a bad idea, or if not a poll, at least establish a concensus to avoid debate over gameplay. I think such a list should be as minimal as possible to account for the fact that, being an RPG, a wide variety of playstyles can be possible. More of a list of "we assume not" than "we assume".

myself, i can confirm i would much rather fight trainers if they're literally in my path. i'm pretty sure that's what my child self - essentially someone who's never played pokemon before, before beating crystal - did. if they're out of the way, though, like union cave or route 45? probably not...

This seems pretty normal, but it also seems like your Pokemon are unusually high leveled if that's all you're doing.

even then, however? if your aipom levels up faster, that just means you would level up your other pokemon...faster. that's pretty good imho.

Oh it's definitely a positive in Aipom's pro/con list and a negative in Tauros's. But it's not a support of the idea that Aipom will hit as hard as Tauros in most playthroughs, where Aipom probably won't be kept at a proportionately higher level than Tauros.

how does tauros have more stat exp? aipom probably would, they've been around longer lol

i don't think stat exp has anything to do with exp groups, they're separate. as for the other stuff like tauros being bulkier, you're right about that too, but i think offense is more ''efficient'' in this game than a more defensive playstyle. i remember that being argued in earlier iterations.

I was referring to Aipom and Tauros at equal level, where Tauros would have more Stat EXP. But I could have been clearer on that. Wasn't really a major point anyway.

Offense is more efficient, but in this case it's not Tauros being defensive as much as it is bulky offense. Aipom is six levels higher than Tauros to be its equal in offense and I'm guessing their speeds are functionally the same, neither being too concerned about moving second against most foes. But unless that offense is OHKOing everything they encounter, they both have to also take hits, and Tauros does so better.

what have i said that is ''frequently needlessly unpleasant''? genuinely curious. dazzle me.

Sorry if this is an intentional joke and I'm just missing it, but "genuinely curious. dazzle me" is a pretty good and obvious example of something needlessly unpleasant and condescending.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Not a bad idea, or if not a poll, at least establish a concensus to avoid debate over gameplay. I think such a list should be as minimal as possible to account for the fact that, being an RPG, a wide variety of playstyles can be possible. More of a list of "we assume not" than "we assume"

agreed, my man. if smogon can establish consensus for competitive battling, surely smogon can do it with ingame runs.

This seems pretty normal, but it also seems like your Pokemon are unusually high leveled if that's all you're doing.

nah, i just go to every nook and cranny to fight trainers (only in kanto do i actually try to skip them lol). i did so the last time too.

Oh it's definitely a positive in Aipom's pro/con list and a negative in Tauros's. But it's not a support of the idea that Aipom will hit as hard as Tauros in most playthroughs, where Aipom probably won't be kept at a proportionately higher level than Tauros.

well, i can test aipom some time and see how that works...

Offense is more efficient, but in this case it's not Tauros being defensive as much as it is bulky offense. Aipom is six levels higher than Tauros to be its equal in offense and I'm guessing their speeds are functionally the same, neither being too concerned about moving second against most foes. But unless that offense is OHKOing everything they encounter, they both have to also take hits, and Tauros does so better.

fair.

Sorry if this is an intentional joke and I'm just missing it, but "genuinely curious. dazzle me" is a pretty good and obvious example of something needlessly unpleasant and condescending.

all right, you got me there. i'm not trying to be a jerk, i'm just trying to have fun.

anything...else? i'd recommend taking it to pms as i don't want to cause any drama.

update: just beat morty. quilava (l25 before fighting morty) crushed his ghosts with dig. gastly went down in one hit, his haunter went down in one hit (albeit it was a critical hit, but i also one-shotted another haunter before that in the gym with dig), his gengar went down in two hits after missing hypnosis the first time and having his second hypnosis healed by a mint berry, and his second haunter went down in two with a spite.

cyndaquil not a-tier, my foot. he's soloed four gym leaders now with almost no item support - i had him hold a mint berry in this fight that i procured from the miltank farm, but otherwise no healing items of any kind - and only falkner was really far behind him level wise - with whitney and morty, we were one level ahead and zero levels ahead, respectively (albeit quilava leveled up to l26 during the fight with morty itself).

even rb squirtle doesn't have these good matchups and he's an a-tier - squirtle struggles against misty and surge while also having issues with erika, and charmander who's a b-tier there struggles with everyone not called brock. gsc cyndaquil easily outperforms both thus far, he just needs tm support. he can beat falkner and bugsy with ember, whitney with fury cutter, and morty with dig. he can use rollout against pryce too. the only move here with a significant opportunity cost is dig - rollout's cool but it's best used on pokemon that can both hit hard and tank enemies' attacks.

however, stantler and victreebel have been disappointing. stantler got koed against the rival thanks to a nasty combination of curse and croconaw's bite as well as other damage accumulating throughout the fight after failing to two-shot croconaw - i also should've taught him strength instead of relying on headbutt. similarly, victreebel's return hasn't shown any overwhelming power yet, the girls' espeon tanking return with hp maybe not even in the yellow. vine whip hits hard though but it's clear she needs sluge bomb. stantler also was useless against morty outside 2hkoing-3hkoing poison types with mud-slap and couldn't learn shadow ball. i apologize for the double post, but since this is a log, i thought it would be justified.

 

[DHR-107]

I already said enough once.

I have now had a second report from this thread and multiple people contact me outside of it. I don't like it when these threads get wildly de-railed like this. I really don't like the whole XP conversation either, it gets to the point where you're just looking at the pure mathematics of the Game and not actually... You know.... Playing it.

This topic comes up in almost every thread by someone who is relatively new. In reality the maths doesn't work as ASMR has said. That "extra" XP would just be converted into a level or two for your other mons. No one levels via exact XP numbers. Nobody. Ever.

As I have said in a few of these other threads, you guys sometimes get TOO close to the topic at hand and it blocks your vision. Take a step back and take a chill pill. The average player probably will keep x resources for whatever reason. They will probably keep their teams levels on an even keel. They will probably forget about some optional areas (hell, before this thread I forgot there was even trainers in the lower areas of Union Cave). The same thing can be said about the Rare Candy "strat". Any mon with an extra 5 levels will probably power through a certain section of the game. You have to kind of omit those kind of experiences though. Yes, I guess (though I haven't tried) it would be the point for point most "efficient" way of playing, but in reality people do not do this. I'd rather get an extra level or two on my whole team (and maybe evolve something if its a level or two away) if I'm struggling at a particular section.

These threads are difficult enough as it is without frankly irrelevant tests which the average player will probably not bother with. We have to assume the player knows the type chart etc, so that information is mostly useless. This also relates to tiering in general, but we shouldn't be forcing people to play a particular way either. We each have our own views on that one but you have to take a step back. If X pokemon is only B tier because of <insert niche strat here> then it doesn't deserve B on average. It should be ranked lower.

I would suggest some of the users posting here take a day or two away and try and enjoy Pokemon again. Relax. I know that the current situation isn't helping anyone (me included), but we don't need to attack each other here when we are aiming for a similar goal.

 

[Xen]

Dropping in to say that I support Crystal Snubbull in A. It’s essentially a budget Ursaring that trades slightly lower stats for an easier and more organic availability, and faster exp leveling (Fast exp group) and evolution. It also starts off with Charm, which gives it a niche over Teddiursa/Ursaring in battles where you can’t just brute-force with Return/Normal spam or coverage. The slightly lower stats don’t make a huge impact overall, but the lower speed does come up in some fights, so it could be considered a weaker A-tier in that regard (it matters more as a Snubbull, but Granbull can still get outsped if your levels aren’t up to par, and some fights like Surge will outspeed it regardless)

Depending on how badly you want to punish the availability, I think GS Snubbull could also stand to rise to B. The availability kinda sucks even for DST abusing since it’s both before Fly and somewhat far from New Bark, but at least in these games it’s far better than Ursaring.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

so, here are some thoughts about the pokemon i've been using thus far. i'm currently in team rocket's hideout and my pokemon are around l26-l27.

quilava - it's almost scary how good this guy has been so far, especially compared to my previous run where i used him too. he's had little trouble dispatching minor opponents and downright soloed major ones. even if being ''overleveled'' was an issue against falkner (l14 being his level at the time and bugsy (l19 at the time, bellsprout was l18 - quilava can handle this matchup at lower levels anyway so this doesn't matter), he was only l21 against whitney's miltank and maybe l26 against morty's ghosts when he basically took them apart, fury cutter for whitney and dig for morty. i might use rollout + ember for pryce and hit jasmine with flame wheel. he definitely needs tms to do quite well, but with tms he does do quite well, and he isn't quite as dependent on them as people think. fury cutter, not a very high demand tm, is good enough for whitney and likely pryce too.

although i haven't fought him and won't be able to test this strategy in the current run, pryce can't do much to quilava - you resist aurora beam and neither seel nor dewgong hits very hard with headbutt. not just that, pryce might be easier to pull fury cutter off against than whitney, given not only the fact you resist his pokemon's moves and there's no unpredictability like with whitney's metronome and/or flinching stomps but also that they might rest to regain hp. i threw fury cutter out for dig unfortunately, which in hindsight was not a smart move. if demand is high enough, however, i'm willing to restart the run and keep fury cutter this time so i can see quilava's actual worth against the gym leader.

a far as tms go, dig and rollout are far more in-demand, and i think that's definitely a draw against quilava. still, cyndaquil is a mon who can put in work against a minimum of 5 gyms (falkner with ember and early evolution, bugsy with ember and potentially charcoal, whitney with fury cutter, pryce with fury cutter + ember as a backup, and jasmine with flame wheel) and extend it to 6 if you can save dig. mint berry + dig was enough to beat morty in my experience, though having some extra awakenings won't hurt. i'd say the late evolution still unfortunately prevents them from dominating or powering through stuff like a ''true'' a-tier mon, so i'm a lot more willing to accept they're b-tier on conventional playthroughs.

victreebel - grass + normal coverage is...not great, not even in this game. it takes time for return to get strong, and not getting it upon immediately arriving in goldenrod - it took some vitamins, some trainer battles, a haircut (admittedly one that had the least effect on happiness), and beating whitney for my pokemon to be happy enough to get return - is a draw against them. vine whip + growth has trouble koing stuff quickly even after x2 growths for bellsprout at least, which is honestly terrible, and not having a better grass-type move until like the elite four with solarbeam of all things is a serious weakness. i truthfully haven't seen return be all that amazing either, given that the kimono girls' espeon tanked it and was only 2hkoed at best in spite of belle being at a higher level and fully evolved. i should've waited for acid in hindsight, which arrives at l24...

victreebel is also kinda flimsy for a fully evolved pokemon, much to my chagrin, which also doesn't help like at all, and slow on top of that. i would definitely not feel confident about putting her in a-tier (that being said, maybe my bellsprout has crap ivs or something, previous bellsprout runs didn't seem quite as dismal). on the other hand, sleep powder is a very useful move for catching wild pokemon and turning unfavorable matchups around, and victreebel does on paper have amazing stats of 100/105 in attack/special attack. paired with x6 growth + vine whip can indeed sweep entire team, even bosses like whitney and bugsy - just put clefairy, metapod, and scyther to sleep asap. yes, i've done it in the past.

stantler - very powerful, but has a terrible movepool. they literally need mud-slap to do anything to morty's pokemon, and mud-slap isn't quite that strong even off stantler's attack. it regularly 2hkos them, which is pretty bad given that it's super effective and they can hypnotize you then. they also run into problems with the third rival battle for this very reason and run the risk of only 3hkoing croconaw with headbutt, which is kind of sad given that stantler has the stats of a fully evolved mon and croc...doesn't. also, they don't learn strength for whatver reason, which is just dumb. they hit brutally hard, but they have none of the versatility of raticate, furret, tauros, granbull, or miltank. i was amazed at first, not so much now.

quagsire - on one hand, you can catch these bad boys at high levels and pretty commonly in the water of ruins of alph - the grass took far longer to yield one, even though you can find higher leveled ones there, causing me to try the water instead. yes, they can be found fully evolved, and i found one at l21 or so. since i had access to surf already, it was no big deal teaching it to them. that being said, quagsire's offensive stats are pretty middling and not having dig definitely hurt, especially against other water-type trainers. strength isn't a terrible substitute, but it's not great either. i definitely feel he'd be way better with access to dig, which runs off his much higher attack stat, stab, and just has an awesome move typing.

that being said, i also find it rather stupid that quagsire needs dig to do decent ground-type damage or decent damage at all, and i think that definitely counts against quagsire. quilava's movepool limitations really don't excuse quaggy's and at least quilava can make do without heavy tm dependence - quagsire cannot. dude needs dig + surf to really get anywhere, especially dig, and even lance whom i fought in previous runs in the early l40s could tank an ice punch with his dragonites as well as fire off a big attack. they're a very budget swampert and it shows.

honestly, this run sucks so far, quilava's gym dominance being the only redeeming value and even that costing quagsire an important tm. i guess if i went for a different pokemon lineup, it wouldn't have been so bad (quilava/fearow/magneton/poliwrath like last time would have left me free to use dig, rollout, and fury cutter on quilava without inconveniencing any of the other members at all).

tentative rankings:

a for quagsire (assuming dig access, otherwise lower). can be great in my experience but needs dig and possibly rain dance too.
b, possibly a for quilava. super useful against major opponents, basically a cross between rb squirtle/y nidoran and rby charmander.
c for victreebel. lack of good offensive options is very, very bad. it's possible acid might make him a lot better but it's not quite enough imho.
c for stantler. great at crushing route stuff but sucks at important matchups. no strength, no coverage like cows or rodents, just awful.

also, here are some more rankings based on pokemon i've used multiple times in the recent past:

c for heracross. your id must not end with 7 if you want one before goldenrod (if it does, you gotta wait till ecruteak), they break out of balls even at low health, and worst of all - they flee. luckily, they're asleep in the daytime for multiple turns, making them easier to catch then. heracross, in spite of not having many good stab options, is more than capable of brutalizing stuff in the early and mid-game with headbutt and eventually strength/return and can reliably solo whitney with fury cutter. they suck against morty and jasmine but can bop chuck, pryce, and even clair pretty hard with fighting resistance + high special bulk. can earthquake stuff in the elite four, tank hits, and throw out powerful returns there.

b for trade machop (no machamp evolution). in my experience, machop's actually had a hard time even beating whitney, even losing to her in a run outright in spite of being close in levels - miltank is buff enough to laugh off your weak ass low kicks and karate chops, and stomp hits really hard as well as generates flinches. machoke has only a 95 base attack or so which is way lower than machamp's and mediocre bulk, making them far less effective at clearing route stuff. on the other hand, boosted experience makes both machoke and your team stronger, and fighting is an excellent type offensively and defensively in this game. he can still bludgeon jasmine and pryce with karate chops (low kick doesn't affect weight as it does in newer games, making it weaker) as well as karen's umbreon with cross chops, and can earthquake stuff in the elite four.

b for magnemite. can be caught around ecruteak and leveled up quite easily against the olivine-cianwood sea trainers, team rocket (who will struggle to harm you without their own magnemites), as well as the girls near goldenrod. thunder wave is such a clutch move to have in matchups and though you have to use thundershock for a while unfortunately, if you're half good with your money and are willing to complete the olivine lighthouse as well as team rocket base before fighting the gym leaders you should be able to get thunder from the game corner. pair it with rain dance and watch magneton - who evolves at the relatively early level of l30 - rip things apart. they can also make surprisingly good use of rollout against pryce due to not fearing anything they can do to him, thus giving him more turns to set up rollout.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Dropping in to say that I support Crystal Snubbull in A. It’s essentially a budget Ursaring that trades slightly lower stats for an easier and more organic availability, and faster exp leveling (Fast exp group) and evolution. It also starts off with Charm, which gives it a niche over Teddiursa/Ursaring in battles where you can’t just brute-force with Return/Normal spam or coverage. The slightly lower stats don’t make a huge impact overall, but the lower speed does come up in some fights, so it could be considered a weaker A-tier in that regard (it matters more as a Snubbull, but Granbull can still get outsped if your levels aren’t up to par, and some fights like Surge will outspeed it regardless)

Depending on how badly you want to punish the availability, I think GS Snubbull could also stand to rise to B. The availability kinda sucks even for DST abusing since it’s both before Fly and somewhat far from New Bark, but at least in these games it’s far better than Ursaring.

Snubbull is fairly interesting. Bite via level-up, can get access to Headbutt immediately after being captured, Fast Exp. Group means catching up will be less of a pain too. (But it's still Lv. 10 when your team will be at least 7 levels ahead of it.)

Speed is a severe issue though. Really warrants the testing.

 

[Pokeron]

Snubbull is fairly interesting. Bite via level-up, can get access to Headbutt immediately after being captured, Fast Exp. Group means catching up will be less of a pain too. (But it's still Lv. 10 when your team will be at least 7 levels ahead of it.)

Speed is a severe issue though. Really warrants the testing.

You see I wanted to post about my Exeggutor/Cyndaquil/Pineco/Miltank run but I was always wondering about this part of the game....
how do people play the part around Gym 3 / Gym 4? Because I often have read statements about the team being so much higher level if you catch something at this point. But we are talking about normal type powerhouses, right?
You know how I got my cow in a matter of minutes from this:

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to this?

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I simply challenged the eeveelutions after I caught it. Considering Snubull gains even faster EXP I wouldn't be even surprised that by dispatching of the eeveelutions by itself its going to level up to an "appropriate level". It can also Bite away in the Gym - Miltank had to Surf and got to this level with casual play:

Hide

Special Note: I have this cheat active to disable Wild Battles so I am not tainted with too much EXP:

Hide

So yeah, if you don't use a new mon against Eeveelutions you most likely overlevel, which makes a tier list pointless. But if you do use a new mon, especially one which can fight in the Gym 4, it will catch up easily. So if somebody has a very low level mon, how do you use them, I am curious.

Also to add my support to the theorymon of Snubull (C) being A rank. Ursaring is the King, Tauros is the Prince, Snubull is the Queen or Normals or something.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Snubbull is fairly interesting. Bite via level-up, can get access to Headbutt immediately after being captured, Fast Exp. Group means catching up will be less of a pain too. (But it's still Lv. 10 when your team will be at least 7 levels ahead of it.)

Speed is a severe issue though. Really warrants the testing.

all of this is true, and having a relatively early evolution (l23 is pretty dope in johto) and at least some semblance of a movepool (shadow ball, sludge bomb, elemental punches, and dynamic miss) make granbull worthy of b-tier at minimum. i'd say most normals belong there except maybe stantler.

i do worry for snubbull's lack of special bulk though, 60 is not a good stat.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You see I wanted to post about my Exeggutor/Cyndaquil/Pineco/Miltank run but I was always wondering about this part of the game....
how do people play the part around Gym 3 / Gym 4? Because I often have read statements about the team being so much higher level if you catch something at this point. But we are talking about normal type powerhouses, right?
You know how I got my cow in a matter of minutes from this:

Hide

to this?

Hide

I simply challenged the eeveelutions after I caught it. Considering Snubull gains even faster EXP I wouldn't be even surprised that by dispatching of the eeveelutions by itself its going to level up to an "appropriate level". It can also Bite away in the Gym - Miltank had to Surf and got to this level with casual play:

Hide

Special Note: I have this cheat active to disable Wild Battles so I am not tainted with too much EXP:

Hide

So yeah, if you don't use a new mon against Eeveelutions you most likely overlevel, which makes a tier list pointless. But if you do use a new mon, especially one which can fight in the Gym 4, it will catch up easily. So if somebody has a very low level mon, how do you use them, I am curious.

Also to add my support to the theorymon of Snubull (C) being A rank. Ursaring is the King, Tauros is the Prince, Snubull is the Queen or Normals or something.

Aaaaand right back into the mire of policy discussion? Really? All of two posts before that nonsense.

You know what? Fuck this thread.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Yes, I guess (though I haven't tried) it would be the point for point most "efficient" way of playing, but in reality people do not do this

I thought the point of this tier list was to help people make more efficient decisions? What even is the point of this list if that's not the case?

Volt-Ikazuchi, if you have nothing good or useful to contribute...you don't have to bother responding. You do know that, yes? You're being rude for no reason when you could simply ignore their post or engage with the actual points in it you find worth discussing. They make great points about the Kimono Girls being a great way to level up new Pokémon (i can attest to that for sure) and why Snubbull (rhymes with ''stubble'' lol) should be in A. Being able to Bite Morty's team and those of his gym trainers while being immune to Lick and Shadow Ball? Sign me up right away.

Pokeron, mind telling me how Exeggutor's working out for you so far? Cyndaquil, too?

Frankly, I think Furret > the big Normals, given that Furret has so much versatility while being as strong as Raticate more or less. She has a very slow start as Sentret against Falkner and possibly Bugsy, though can trounce Whitney with Rollout and Morty with either that or Dig. Chuck is a bad matchup for obvious reasons but Jasmine gets hit by Dig and Surf and Pryce as well as Clair eat heavy attacks. The E4, idk about though.

Random Passerby, i know you're busy but i wanted to ask super quick: as long as my pokemon is relative to the boss's levels (e.g. only 2-3 levels above or below the rival or gym leader's strongest pokemon), is that fine for you? i think it would be great to establish precisely when overleveling - and for tha matter, underleveling - happens, and i think that's a very reasonable metric to use.

 

[Random Passerby]

Random Passerby, i know you're busy but i wanted to ask super quick: as long as my pokemon is relative to the boss's levels (e.g. only 2-3 levels above or below the rival or gym leader's strongest pokemon), is that fine for you? i think it would be great to establish precisely when overleveling - and for tha matter, underleveling - happens, and i think that's a very reasonable metric to use.

To be honest, I really don't think you would be able to out level the Gym Leaders in this game.

I know I generally get around Lv22 at Morty then depending on the routes or order you do things, your level would be late 20s for Chuck, and early 30s for the other Gyms. I don't speak for everyone though and this is just my personal experience. Maybe I don't raise my mons much but I think these levels are what an average player would have.

I would think a player would know by themselves when they're grinding levels or not.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

To be honest, I really don't think you would be able to out level the Gym Leaders in this game.

I know I generally get around Lv22 at Morty then depending on the routes or order you do things, your level would be late 20s for Chuck, and early 30s for the other Gyms. I don't speak for everyone though and this is just my personal experience. Maybe I don't raise my mons much but I think these levels are what an average player would have.

I would think a player would know by themselves when they're grinding levels or not.

1. you can definitely outlevel falkner, as my log shows, and i swear to you i have overleveled past clair (albeit by one level for maybe one or two mons) even before fighting her. but let's pretend that didn't happen - when would you consider a team over or underleveled?

after all the crap i got for trying to help players find an efficient way to victory, i think we need to establish what those words mean.

2. yeah, i think that's what the average player would have. of course, we're here to help them be better...right?

3. grinding against trainers is all you need to overlevel in some cases.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

since no one has posted thus far, new update:



I got all seven badges, and Quilava (L34 against Jasmine, L31-L33 against Pryce) was able to roll both Jasmine and Pryce over with great ease - Flame Wheel took care of Jasmine's Steel-types (OHKOs Magnemites and 2HKOs Steelix who couldn't do a lot to me with Rock Throw) and Rollout smashed Pryce's Seel, Dewgong, and Piloswine in quick succession (again, Fury Cutter might've done the same thing). I admittedly may have lucked out a bit with the Ice type leader given that the man can lower your speed with Icy Wind and hit you with Headbutt while you're slower to flinch you - which could easily end a Rollout or Fury Cutter rampage but in my case, didn't. Still, a simple Guard Spec ensures the viability of this strategy. However, Quilava also objectively sucks at quickly killing route mons. Ember never seems capable of one-shotting anything, not even mons weak to it.

Verdict? A. Quilava can beat the brakes off any gym except Chuck's (and Clair's, but haven't fought her yet) even without evolving into Typhlosion, and at L33 or so is only three Rare Candies away from evolution. This might seem excessive if not for the fact that Buena's Password for three nights can yield you a Rare Candy in Crystal, making sure you only need two from the wild, and you still have plenty left for the other mons in case you want to use Candies on them. Quilava does depend on TMs a fair bit, though not as much as some argue. Fury Cutter is necessary for beating Whitney but it's not a super high demand TM unless you have Bug types to throw it on - it can also bring Pryce down if you use a Guard Spec. beforehand to avoid getting interrupted mid-sweep. Dig can take care of Morty, although this is admittedly a demanded TM, but that didn't stop Nidos or Clef from being A in RBY.



Victreebel's been doing a lot better with Return and even better with Sludge Bomb, though their lack of speed and bulk is annoying and not having Razor Leaf or a comparable Grass attack beforehand sucks. Growth + Sleep Powder + Vine Whip can beat the brakes off virtually every gym except Falkner (you don't have Sleep Powder here without overleveling) and Morty (they outpace you and put you to sleep, take your HP, etc), but they really want a high power Return - which takes time and investment to get - or Sludge Bomb, which requires 4 badges and beating the Mahogany Rockets to work. I would say they're slightly above average as a mon overall, their boss killing potential and support moves are great but their route killing potential is not nearly as good initially - though this picks up after they're happier and they're still great at wasting the early Hikers.

Verdict? Leaning towards a B. Setting up to destroy opponents, reliable sleep, and gaining access to Return and/or Sludge Bomb are so good.



Stantler's pretty good as a neutral hitter, though lack of Strength means they gotta make do with Headbutt until they're happy enough. In fact, mine took apart Poliwrath after they killed nearly everyone else in my team (don't ask, I just made some very bad tactical choices with the rest, not playing a Nuzlocke lowers my guard as a trainer tremendously). I plan to give mine Return soon, though their inability to learn Shadow Ball, Dig, etc. is very unfortunate. They're a worse Tauros, simply put, given that Tauros has slightly better Attack (100 vs 95), much better bulk (75/95/70 vs 73/62/65) an equal capture rate (much rarer though), and the bull can actually throw Surfs and Strengths around. I think Stantler at best will be on any tier Tauros is, their only advantage is easier availability but they're objectively worse in every other way that matters.

That said, I'd consider them slightly above average due to having Hypnosis to pull some clutch matchups, although its accuracy is horrendous. I should note that X-Accuracy in this game can boost your accuracy to the point it's perfect, allowing you to spam Hypnosis on entire teams before pummeling them and make Stantler far more dangerous than my use of him was (I don't remember using the move even once honestly). Of course, we're still debating the applicability of these items, but they definitely give Stantler some reason to be used over Tauros or Miltank. Additionally, maybe a Rare Candy amp would make them much more powerful while also not slowing down the team's growth like mine kinda did. They are well suited to such an amp, given they take time to level up and at higher levels, this becomes more and more noticeable and given the level curve...

Verdict? C. Tauros and Miltank are better overall, as are Furret, Raticate, and Girafarig. Most of those belong in B IMO, but that's a different story.



Quagsire's been doing much better after my initial freakout, even tanking a Gloom's Absorb in the Rocket Hideout at late L20s with HP in the green and defeating it with two Ice Punches. That said, they really need Dig to do consistently high damage given their Surfs aren't all that strong and plenty of things resist it and don't care about Ice Punch. I'd say B Tier sounds fine, given that not only is the early-game Wooper notoriously weak and fragile but the later game Quagsire can be a pain to catch, appears after Whitney and Morty where they would've been useful, and again needs Dig to get anywhere - a high demand TM. They're much, much worse than RSE Swampert who actually learns good moves on his own and has much better stats across the board, from offense to defense to even speed. This doesn't make them bad, simply heavily reliant on TM support.

Verdict? B it is.

Current Team Log: I should note that I have fought virtually all trainers, both in my way and those in places like the Union Cave Surf-only spots As a result, my entire team is sniffing L34-L35 right now and I'm about to hit Blackthorn City (I plan on completing the Rocket Tower later, after beating up mooks there and clearing the Ice Cave). I estimate my team should be in the late L30s by the time I reach the E4, but I'll wait and ascertain that first. This also brings me to a few points I wish to make about the level curve of the game and what players can actually do about it.

Quilava has not evolved yet - duh - and I'm 7 badges in already. Even discounting Stantler hogging EXP, that's not a good thing or fair to ignore. The fact most of my team was below Jasmine's Steelix and will most likely be below Clair's Kingdra even after a relatively even-handed Rare Candy dump is not a good thing and it raises questions as to whether the 4 mon team is truly ideal for Johto (as Pokeron indicated and my own past experiences, 3 is a much better number for keeping up with bosses even without Rare Candy spam and even with slow exp mons in the team, and this is a game which includes Kanto where you can attain more Pokemon).

It also makes me consider alternative training ideas like the Daycare which levels up your Pokemon based on the amount of steps you take, which is another potential compromise and one that has actually worked for me in prior runs. It allows you to train three mons in your party while having a fourth level up with the Daycare Couple without risking soaking up the three mons' experience. Between the Daycare and the Rare Candies (dumped on one mon or several, just in case it's not clear), it should be quite possible to negate the level curve's weirdness.

*My point is that we should ascertain what it means for a Pokemon to be in a particular tier. Are S Tiers mons capable of soloing the game even when grouped with three other teammates? If so, Spearow really isn't that good. Are they mons who can simply OHKO-2HKO the vast vast majority of mons without much investment or difficulty regarding obtaining them while part of an ensemble? If so, Cyndaquil really isn't that far apart from Totodile, especially by the endgame. So far, the tiers are there but what those tiers actually signify is not stated at the outset.

Thoughts?

Edit: And now people are whining about me talking about Rare Candies again, even after pointing out an alternative strategy and two, and even after making my case for why not using this dump doesn't work. Seriously now?

 

[Random Passerby]

Ok. I'm just going to say this: I'm really tired of seeing the same Rare Candy argument every day. It will just devolve into an argument to derail the thread again.

DHR-107 sorry to bother you but can you lock the thread for a week at least until people know which method is not accepted?

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Love how people keep whinging about the ''Rare Candy'' argument when I'm giving examples from my own logs of why it's important (even moderating my argument and showing how it can be done cheaply), in addition to contributing analyses of the Pokémon. This is really, really sad.

DHR-107, you're the mod, but just know that I'm not making the ''same argument every day'', that's garbo.

 

[DHR-107]

Congrats. You guys have been such awful presences the thread leader (who you've given zero respect too) has asked to lock the thread even after I've posted in here twice.

aegon the unlikely Your overall presence has dragged the thread down. You've single handedly caused an issue large enough to lock the thread, which I don't think has ever happened before. I even asked people to not post for a few days, and you straight up ignored it. The attitude above is why people aren't engaging with you. It's why people aren't treating you seriously because you aren't giving them any respect either. You are making the same argument with the Rare Candy's. They shouldn't factor into tiering in my opinion at all, but they are useful to give a Pokémon a nice bump. People have explained this on a couple of occasions now which you have also ignored. And that's it for me.

There are a few other people here too who probably also need to take a step back as I said previously. We're here to try and enjoy Pokémon, but clearly some people don't have any interest in that. My mod style is mostly hands off, but this has genuinely irked me. Like I said, take a damned chill pill. This senseless arguing and sniping at each other isn't getting us anywhere.

 

[Random Passerby]

OK, now that one week is over, I hope everyone can keep a cool head. Before we start, please do not keep snapping at each other, and remember to keep it civil. If your purposed method is rejected by other members of the community, MOVE ON. The world doesn't revolve around your points.

To start the ball rolling, I will talk about the run I made recently with Meganium, Fearow, Pinsir, and Kingdra.

Chikorita

In a game that hates Grass-types, it is hard for Chikorita to shine. Reflect can help support the team in some fights such as Chuck, Lance (Hyper Beam) and Red(Snorlax) but the lack of offensive power is very apparent. Even match-ups like Pryce, Misty and Surge are shaky for this line because it tends to 2HKO or 3HKO the opponent, which makes the damage pile up. Situational moves such as Light Screen is interesting but it is learned too late and will not move the needle much.

Verdict: C

Spearow

I used the Spearow from Route 46 instead of the Gift Spearow for this run. It has good match-ups early on and while it has some rough patches at times, it can still contribute decently even against the Elite 4. I gave it Swift and Return and it's good enough to wreck things.

Falkner: Spearow can 1 v 1 Pidgeotto but will not sweep the Gym as it takes too much damage.

Bugsy: Spearow wins here unless Scyther picks 3 Quick Attacks in a row. Bayleaf can set up a Reflect to guarantee a W.

Whitney: Fearow can defeat Clefairy but Miltank is only 3HKOed by Swift while Miltank is likely faster and 2HKO Fearow with Stomp or Rollout.

Morty: Your only way of dealing damage is Peck which 3HKOes his Ghosts. However, they cannot damage you besides Curse or Dream Eater. A Mint Berry will help you against Hypnosis too.

Pryce: Return will 2HKO Dewgong or Seel but only 3HKO Piloswine. Meanwhile, Dewgong's Icy Wind / Aurora Beam deals 80 to 90% to Fearow. Piloswine's Blizzard obviously OHKOes.

Chuck: Fearow's Return OHKOes Primeape (or deal about 90%) but only 3HKO Poliwrath while Surf 2HKOes back. Not ideal.

Jasmine: Yeah, keep Fearow away here.

Clair: Fearow can 1 v 1 one of her Dragonair but loses to Kingdra who 2HKOes back with Surf.

Will: Fearow can defeat Xatu or Exeggutor but will take heavy damage in the process as Drill Peck / Return only 2HKOes.

Koga: Drill Peck OHKOes Ariados and Venomoth. Crobat is risky as it is only 3HKOed while Wing Attack 2HKOes Fearow.

Bruno: Drill Peck OHKOes the Hitmons but Machamp can take one Drill Peck and OHKO back with Rock Slide.

Karen: Return OHKOes Murkrow while Drill Peck 2HKOes Vileplume and Gengar.

Lance: Keep Fearow away here.

Verdict: A or S.

Pinsir

The Pinsir I got from the Bug-Catching Contest. I gave it the Headbutt TM and took it to defeat the Goldenrod Underground and Gym trainers. I also gave it Fury Cutter and Strength. Swords Dance is great but I only get to Lv43 in Kanto.

Whitney: Fury Cutter 4HKOes Clefairy which means you get to unleash the 160BP move on Miltank. However, this is risky as Miltank is only 2HKOed while being faster and can flinch Pinsir with Stomp.

Morty: Yeah, keep Pinsir away here.

Pryce: You can 4HKO Seel with Fury Cutter to unleash the 160BP move on Dewgong who either gets OHKOed or takes at least 90%. By that point, you will be too weakened to take Piloswine though. Note that Piloswine only gets 2HKOed by 160 BP Fury Cutter.

Chuck: Pinsir can 2HKO Primeape with Strength but is 2HKOed by Poliwrath's Surf while Strength only 3HKOes.

Jasmine: Keep Pinsir away here.

Clair: Pinsir can 2HKO the Dragonairs with Pink Bow Strength but will probably get Thunder Waved. It loses to Kingdra who can 2HKO back with Surf. Note that Surf deals about 70% so if you use Pinsir against the Draonairs, it faints here.

Will: His Pokemon can take Strength and deal heavy damage back with Psychic. Xatu is also faster than Pinsir so keep Pinsir away here.

Koga: Pinsir can defeat Ariados and Venomoth but will take heavy damage from Psychic. Obviously loses against Crobat.

Bruno: Pinsir can 2HKO the Hitmons but takes about 30% from Hitmonchan's Fire Punch. Strength only 4HKOes Machamp who does 70% back with Rock Slide.

Karen: You cannot Fury Cutter spam here as Umbreon's Confuse Ray and Sand Attack will make it fail. Submission 2HKOes Umbreon while Pinsir has good match-ups against Murkrow and Vileplume. You can probably take Gengar on but Thief only 5HKOes Gengar who only has Lick and Curse to hit you but it is inefficient.

Lance: Keep Pinsir away here.

Verdict: B or C

Kingdra

Horsea and Seadra can only be obtained in Whirl Islands which means you need to clear the Mahogany Rockets and Pryce to even have access to them. I recommend you go to Lugia's chamber as you can get Seadra there instead of being stuck with a Horsea. Seadra comes at Lv20 - 24 at 10% rate so it is not too bad.

The bad thing is the rarity of the Dragon Scale which is held by wild Horsea and Seadra at a 2% rate. Now, Horsea and Seadra have a combined 70% appearance rate in Lugia's cave so you can Thief them but it still takes a long time especially since Thief only has 10PP. I advise only doing this after you get Fly. It took me 30 minutes to finally get one.

Seadra and Kingdra have equal Def, SpA, and Spe so the evolution can be delayed a little. The extra SpD is nice at random matches. As for the TMs, you can give it Surf, Icy Wind, Blizzard, and Dragon Breath. It can also learn Agility but it is not important in this run.

Chuck: Mystic Water Surf from Seadra can help you win this match-up although you need to get lucky for him to miss Dynamic Punch.

Jasmine: At Lv28 and equipped with Mystic Water, Kingdra has a high chance to OHKO Magnemites with Surf and 2HKO Steelix with the same move. Note that Magnemite's Thunderbolt will OHKO Seadra back while Kingdra is only 2HKOed by Thunderbolt.

Clair: I recommend using Blizzard to OHKO the Dragonairs as Icy Wind only 2HKOes and they have Thunder Wave. Dragon Breath from Dragonair 2HKOes Seadra / Kingdra. Clair's Kingdra is a bad match-up as Blizzard only 3HKOes while Dragon Breath and Hyper Beam 2HKOes.

Will: Blizzard OHKOes Exeggutor and Xatu. Note that Xatu can also be 2HKOed by Surf + Icy Wind although you take about 40% from Psychic. Keep it away from Jynx.

Koga: Surf 2HKOes Ariados and Venomoth while also 3HKOes Muk and Forretress. Crobat can be 2HKOed with Icy Wind+Blizzard but it has risks as Wing Attack does about 30% and Kingdra is likely weakened by his other Pokemon.

Bruno: Surf 2HKOes the Hitmons although Cross Chop from Machamp will likely faint Kingdra if you have prior damage.

Karen: This is not a good match-up at all. Kingdra can defeat Vileplume, Murkrow, and Gengar. It loses 1 v 1 against Houndoom which is faster and 2HKO with Crunch while failing to OHKO back with Surf.

Lance: You need an X Speed or Agility support here as his Pokemon are faster than you. Kingdra can sweep with Blizzard + Surf after Gyarados has been defeated. Icy Wind is not sufficient as it only 2HKOes Dragonite.

Verdict: B or C

If anyone's interested, here's my levels

levels

Falkner: Spearow Lv11 , Chikorita Lv9
Bugsy: Spearow Lv17, Bayleaf Lv16
Whitney: Pinsir Lv16, Bayleaf Lv18, Fearow Lv20
Morty: Pinsir Lv22, Bayleaf Lv22, Fearow Lv24
Pryce: Fearow Lv28, Bayleaf Lv27, Pinsir Lv27
Chuck: Seadra Lv26, Fearow Lv29, Bayleaf Lv28, Pinsir Lv28
Jasmine: Kingdra Lv28, Fearow Lv30, Bayleaf Lv30, Pinsir Lv29
Clair: Kingdra Lv34, Fearow Lv34, Meganium Lv34, Pinsir Lv34
Elite 4: Kingdra Lv38, Fearow Lv38, Meganium Lv38, Pinsir Lv38

EDIT: I will elaborate more on the mons later. I want to emphasize the levels are from my experience. Your levels might be different. However, don't make the discussion all about yourself. Be nice.

EDIT 2: The only reason I go Pryce first is to get Seadra ASAP. You can go to the other direction just fine.

Happy posting.

 

[Xator_Nova]

I finished my run with Cyndaquil, Rattata, Sentret and Tauros a week ago, but couldn't post it because... yeah :/

Will

Typhlosion Lv40 (w/ Charcoal): Fire Punch OHKOs Exeggutor and Jynx, and 2HKOs Xatu (OHKO with Sunny Day). Thunder Punch 2HKOs Xatu and Slowbro. Fire Blast OHKOs Xatu.

Raticate Lv38 (w/ Pink Bow | Spell Tag): Return OHKOs Jynx, 2HKOs Xatu and Exeggutor, and 3HKOs Slowbro. Shadow Ball 2HKOs Exeggutor and 3HKOs Slowbro. Psychic 2HKOs Raticate.

Furret Lv38 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Jynx, 2HKOs Xatu and Exeggutor, and 3HKOs Slowbro. Shadow Ball 2HKOs Exeggutor and 3HKOs Slowbro. Psychic 2HKOs Furret.

Tauros Lv35 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Jynx, 2HKOs Xatu and Exeggutor, and 3HKOs Slowbro. Psychic 2HKOs Tauros.

Koga

Typhlosion Lv41 (w/ Charcoal): Fire Punch OHKOs Ariados, Venomoth and Forretress, and 3HKOs Muk. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Crobat.

Raticate Lv39 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Ariados, Venomoth, Muk and Crobat.

Furret Lv39 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Ariados, Venomoth, Muk and Crobat. Fire Punch 2HKOs Forretress.

Tauros Lv36 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Ariados, Venomoth, Muk and Crobat. Fire Blast misses out shortly on a OHKO against Forretress, but it can be defeated by Return afterwards. A sweep is possible with the Fire Blast TM.

Bruno

Typhlosion Lv41 (w/ Charcoal): Fire Punch 2HKOs Hitmontop, and 3HKOs Machamp. Earthquake 2HKOs Onix.

Raticate Lv39 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Hitmonlee, 2HKOs Hitmontop and Hitmonchan, and 3HKOs Machamp. Sadly Machamp OHKOs with Cross Chop.

Furret Lv39 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Hitmonlee, 2HKOs Hitmontop and Hitmonchan, and 3HKOs Machamp. Sadly Machamp OHKOs with Cross Chop. Surf deals with Onix.

Tauros Lv36 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Hitmonlee, 2HKOs Hitmontop and Hitmonchan, and 3HKOs Machamp. Sadly Machamp OHKOs with Cross Chop. Surf deals with Onix.

Karen

Typhlosion Lv42: Fire Punch 2HKOs Gengar, Murkrow, 4HKOs Umbreon (3HKOs under sun). Thunder Punch OHKOs Murkrow. Earthquake 2HKOs Houndoom and Gengar. Return 2HKOs Houndoom. Fire Blast 2HKOs Gengar (OHKO under sun) and 3HKOs Umbreon and Houndoom (2HKO under sun).

Raticate Lv40 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Vileplume, Murkrow and Houndoom, and 3HKOs Umbreon. Shadow Ball 2HKOs Gengar.

Furret Lv40 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Vileplume, Murkrow and Houndoom, and 3HKOs Umbreon. Shadow Ball 2HKOs Gengar.

Tauros Lv36 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Vileplume, Murkrow and Houndoom, and 3HKOs Umbreon. Earthquake 2HKOs Gengar and Houndoom.

Lance

Typhlosion Lv42 (w/ Magnet): Thunder Punch OHKOs Gyarados and Aerodactyl, although the latter outspeeds and 2HKOs with Rock Slide. Everyone else resists its Fire attacks (Fire Blast under the sun 3HKOs Dragonite for example).

Raticate Lv40 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Gyarados and Charizard and 3HKOs Dragonite and Aerodactyl.

Furret Lv40 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Gyarados and Charizard and 3HKOs Dragonite and Aerodactyl.

Tauros Lv36 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Gyarados and Charizard and 3HKOs Dragonite and Aerodactyl.

Cyndaquil requires too many resources for the endgame such as the Fire Blast TM, and thus I don't think it belongs in A Tier, so B Tier has to be.
Tauros hasn't performed differently than Raticate and Furret, and it's worse in certain aspects. The Slow experience group hurts it more than one would think. I think Tauros belongs then in B Tier, too.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I'm deciding to go forward with the following team (may not use all six mons, but Snubbull is a lock):



I will probably go with a 4-mon team of Granbull, Golduck, Heracross, and Electrode.

Falkner: Spearow Lv11 , Chikorita Lv9
Bugsy: Spearow Lv17, Bayleaf Lv16
Whitney: Pinsir Lv16, Bayleaf Lv18, Fearow Lv20
Morty: Pinsir Lv22, Bayleaf Lv22, Fearow Lv24
Pryce: Fearow Lv28, Bayleaf Lv27, Pinsir Lv27
Chuck: Seadra Lv26, Fearow Lv29, Bayleaf Lv28, Pinsir Lv28
Jasmine: Kingdra Lv28, Fearow Lv30, Bayleaf Lv30, Pinsir Lv29
Clair: Kingdra Lv34, Fearow Lv34, Meganium Lv34, Pinsir Lv34
Elite 4: Kingdra Lv38, Fearow Lv38, Meganium Lv38, Pinsir Lv38
[/hide]

EDIT: I will elaborate more on the mons later. I want to emphasize the levels are from my experience. Your levels might be different. However, don't make the discussion all about yourself. Be nice.

EDIT 2: The only reason I go Pryce first is to get Seadra ASAP. You can go to the other direction just fine.

Happy posting.

Interesting. Your levels seem to be more or less on par or above for Bugsy and Falkner, but from Whitney onward there's definitely a bit of a slowdown and one that increases with each successive gym leader. Mind elaborating on what your training method was?

I would be quite interested in comparing your, mine, and Nova's team levels (as well as those of others) to see where the average team goes.

Xator_Nova Good work on the testing, interesting to see higher levels than with Random Passerby. Also interesting to see Raticate and Furret 2HKOing the E4's members so reliably, it really doesn't look like they're different from Tauros in terms of overall performance - either a case for Tauros falling or them rising. I guess this is one game where Rattata actually could be a pretty powerful teammate!

That said, does Typhlosion really needed to be penalized for Fire Blast? You don't need it until the Elite Four in my experience, and by the time you're done with the Rockets in Goldenrod - let alone your battle with Clair - it shouldn't be difficult to acquire this TM at all. Sunny Day + Fire Blast also allows Typhlosion to nuke pretty much everyone in the Elite Four, Lance aside. My Pokémon were admittedly at L40 or above before fighting the Elite Four - but Typhlosion effectively soloed them (and Lance). Sunny Day + Fire Blast destroys nearly everything they have, including Umbreon - even Dragonites got 2HKOed, Gyarados got one-shotted by Thunderpunch. I fought nearly every trainer, maybe missed a few Rockets. Pretty much no wild grinding unless I was already a hair's breadth away from the next level, and even then only once.

And yes, Typhlo leveled up during the E4. That's why he's at L49, he took on everybody almost himself (I tried using Stantler at first but after he failed to OHKO Xatu and got confused, that was that). A non-Sunny Day Fire Blast can OHKO his L42 Xatu, and with Sunny Day up and a critical hit, Umbreon got one-shotted. He could also tank Crunches and Hyper Beams, the only help I needed was with Aerodactyl who Quagsire dispatched - and even there, Typhlo took a Rock Slide and hit back hard with a Thunderpunch.

 

[Celeb]

I have a few runs under my belt in GSC so I decided to check tiers in the OP with Pokemon I used in mind.

I can easily see Legendary Beasts going up a tier. They start with amazing levels (pretty much ready for E4) and great stats. Finding them is obviously an annoying task, however not much different time-wise than low encounter Pokemon like Marill and Snubbull. The question here is how valuable Master Ball is to this tier list since you pretty much need it to not waste even more time.

Entei

Entei has a great bulk but requires some TM investment since Ember+Bite+Strength is not sufficient lategame. Sunny Day helps and isn't hard to get. Dig helps but isn't required (it is needed by many Pokemon after all). Fire Blast is expensive but Entei needs it to deal big damage. With Strength+Fire Blast, Entei covers everything bar Rock types (which can be dealt with using Solarbeam if it isn't required by another Pokemon). It has a type advantage against Koga and slight advantage against Will. Lance resists its STAB.

Raikou

Raikou has a good bulk and requires similar TM investment as Entei. Spark is alright (requires one level up and has similar Power to Ampharos' Thunder Punch) but Thunder makes it into quite a killer. It has no real answer to ground, electric and grass types because of lacking movepool (it only gets physical attacks via TMs). I went with Hyper Beam and it was okay - dealt with specific targets but didn't do much. Rain Dance helps your water team member and makes Thunder accurate. Raikou has a type advantage against Will and half of Lance's team.

Suicune (GS)

Suicune (GS) has an absurd bulk and can be taught Surf immediately (with no cost) making it a great asset in a team. Blizzard/Icy Wind is all it needs to deal with everything since no water types can touch it. In League, it only has to watch out for Karen's Vileplume and Lance's Dragonite (the one with Thunder).

Personally, I don't see why Chinchou is so high on the list. I was severely underwhelmed by its average stats. It has average special attack, horrendous physical attack, average physical bulk, good special bulk and average speed. The typing is great and the combination of electric+water covers everything except for grass types, however Lanturn doesn't get an ice coverage (which is unheard of for water types usually). It also eats as much experience as legendaries. I am used to water types tearing Lance a new one in every playthrough. Well, Lanturn has changed that.

Aside from abovementioned 4 Pokemon I have also used Chikorita, Cyndaquil, Totodile, Sentret, Hoothoot, Scizor, Umbreon, Espeon, Swinub, Celebi (Virtual Console), Mareep, Togepi, Sunkern, Heracross, Houndour (I cheated an egg so it doesn't count), Hoppip, Spinarak and Phanpy. I can see some opportunities to change tiers of some of them (e.g. Cyndaquil) but their current rankings are not unjustified either, in my opinion.

P.S.: I can't format my text for some reason. CTRL+B doesn't work. Clicking on icons doesn't work either.
P.S.2: There is a typo in D tier, Random Passerby - "Spinirak".