Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[MrAldo]

Moltres-Galar is a particularly interesting pick for some hyper offenses since it can pull off double dance sets in agility and nasty plot pretty easily with like screens and even without them if we are ballsy and if we activate berserk you have a pokemon that has +3 special attack which stabs combination is pretty hard to switch into besides like magearna, which main sets atm arent using recovery. I know a mon that it could use a setup bait got banned but I wouldnt send it to C- just yet, definitely a niche pick so a drop can be discussed but not that far cause the combination of its stabs (with enough luck to hit those hurricanes) is very hard to stop once it gets going. I wouldnt even drop it tbh when it is better than stuff like buzzwole right now.

I do agree with Corv rising to A at least and Torn rising to A+. Torn is everywhere still being a virtually unkillable pivot but now it isnt adimensional anymore thanks to the addition of nasty plot so stuff like knock off nasty plot or nasty plot 3 special attacks pose an extremely important threat to consider on building which responses can be limited. I wouldnt send Corv to A+ just yet, but I think a rise can be discussed to A since it is a pretty important cornerpush for teambuilding and having a solid pivot to many things with recovery is pretty phenomenal, which other mon that can do similar things in Mandibuzz loses some value without spectrier being the main special threat. Think Corv and Mandi can swap ranks since right now after the horse ban Corvi has the upper hand in checking more stuff.

Cinderace is an easy S, and one that has outstanding synergy with Magearna to boot. Cinderace + Magearna is a top tier core, but unrelated to that Cinderace is just... perfect. Extremely good coverage to make you guess what it could be running, with all options being justifiable. Bulk up, coverage moves you name it, and this mon is extremely hard to punish so you may see this mon not take any damage during a whole match which is making rocky helmet a big consideration in the mons he can press u-turn on like toxapex, slowbro, and garchomp bringing back the defensive garchomp. Pretty oppressive presence that deserves its place at the top. S.

I may want to discuss rillaboom to A+, but thats for later. Right now I do believe Zeraora needs to rise a good couple of ranks. The electric... whatever it is (furry) is pretty good in this meta. People are opting for fast mons more and more when teambuilding and zeraora is one of the best that offers the most utility since it can threaten torn and naturally outspeed it! This is incredibly uncommon right now and with a speed tier only paralled by dragapult and by running boots it just can do stuff with a simple set in plasma fist/volt switch/toxic/coverage. Pretty cool mon atm. Could rise to B imo at least.

 

[War Incarnate]

to UR or someplace worse than UR

The only reason I'm pretty sure this exists in the VR is because of Spectrier. Now that the dead horse has finally been banished from OU, it is time for Exploud to go. This has quite literally zero business still being here now. It's got an absolutely garbage speed tier, doesn't even have good enough defenses, and because of this, it's outclassed by quite literally ANY special attacker here in the tier. Every meta threat here either has a method to fuck it over before it can do shit, you got damn strong attackers (Cinderace, you know?) in general that just OHKO or 2HKO this load of shit, Magearna that probably doesn't care about whatever it can throw at it, I think you get the drill. Specs Scrappy Boomburst is not enough to save this thing at all, it may hit hard, but that means nothing because it doesn't have the bulk to live hits or speed to hit first in 95% of situations. It should not have been on the VR. Just like all the other crap that got placed here just to check Spectrier.

This will be only nom I'm gonna make for now, thank you for my time

 

[Tzolkin]

to Unranked

i understand that it has its niche on certain team builds, but i have a very hard time seeing how it has a true place in the meta. almost the entirety of ou’s roster can hit it with super-effective damage, and unless it gets a swords dance off (which is unlikely due to its horrible speed tier), it can’t really hit anyone hard at all.

furthermore, with it being almost required to run boots, it has pretty much zero longevity in matches. knock off is already a move that most pokémon hate switching into, and shedinja gets completely obliterated by one of the best and most common attacks in the game. there has to be something i’m missing here, because i have a hard time seeing any use for shedinja that isn’t done better by ~ a regular ghost pokémon.

I disagree with Shedinja drop. Yes, it is a very niche mon for obvious reasons as it gets destroyed by the very common knock off and a lot of surprise coverage. However, it got much better in this generation to the point i think a lot of stall teams can fit it. Firstly, HDB are a blessing for her bcs now you don't really need 2 defoggers on your stall team to even have a chance to utilize it. Furthermore with the removal of HP Fire, many mons just don't have the coverage to beat it. The biggest one is Magearna but you also have Garchomp, most Landorus and generally a majority of setup sweepers that can easily get out of control. So all in all, it is niche since it only fits on stall but I've found it very useful and surprisingly reliable.

 

[Sensemaker]

Dude, Koff is probably the best way to kill Shedinja, sure, but there are definitely ways to kill it that are very common. Cinderace, due to it’s offensive pressure, and it forces switches quite often, having an excellent Speed Tier. Zapdos can kill it with it’s secondary coverage Move, whether it be Heat Wave, or a STAB Hurricane. Slowking-Galar can’t get killed, unless Shedinja had Swords Danced, but even so, I think it would have to be at x4 in order for it to be threatening, to Glow. (I didn’t do the calcs, so it’d be nice, if someone corrected me.) Garchomp isn’t only a set up Sweeper. It can be run Defensive, and kills Shedinja, instantly. Torn-T, Special Pults, Nidoking, Moltres, and a lot more Mons can kill it. Knock Off is not that rare, as you said, so Shedinja is often forced to switch out. Generally, it would be set up fodder, knowing you wouldn’t stay in, unless you’re a sicko, ofc.

I don't think that you are grasping Shedinja's niche, in all honesty. The way you are describing Shed, is as if it were to be played on a balance team, which is non-sensical. It does not bring anything to the table in balance.

It's niche is on full on hard stall teams to act as an all purpose immunity switch in, and as a potential win-con, provided you can outlast the opponents ways to KO you. Stall teams have ways to manage Shed's weaknesses. They will carry at least one defogger, a knock off/status sponge, and if necessary, can pivot around weather (sand/hail).

As you rightfully pointed out, balance teams cannot support Shed in this way, but stall CAN. For that reason alone, I do not believe Shedinja should be unranked.

 

[viet noa]

I disagree with Shedinja drop. Yes, it is a very niche mon for obvious reasons as it gets destroyed by the very common knock off and a lot of surprise coverage. However, it got much better in this generation to the point i think a lot of stall teams can fit it. Firstly, HDB are a blessing for her bcs now you don't really need 2 defoggers on your stall team to even have a chance to utilize it. Furthermore with the removal of HP Fire, many mons just don't have the coverage to beat it. The biggest one is Magearna but you also have Garchomp, most Landorus and generally a majority of setup sweepers that can easily get out of control. So all in all, it is niche since it only fits on stall but I've found it very useful and surprisingly reliable.

i understand that it’s supposed to be an immunity switch-in for stall teams. i definitely agree with it beating but for the other pokémon, i’m not sure.

commonly runs knock off, stone edge, or both.
runs stone edge pretty much on all of its swords dance sets. also, unless if i’m mistaken, doesn’t rough skin kill shedinja?
ofc has dual wingbeat, runs acro, mostly runs knock (although i understand that it sometimes doesn’t), always keeps a stab fire type attack, etc

so, i’m not really sure if it beats the majority of setup sweepers. i get that it can really surprise unprepared teams, but there are a lot of pokémon that can also shock unprepared teams. beating magearna is obviously amazing, but it doesn’t always matter when pretty much the rest of a magearna team can probably beat shedinja.

edit: also, wouldnt shedinja hate getting tricked by specs magearna?

 

[Jordy]

Shedinja is obviously a very flawed Pokemon but I reckon it's fine to stay ranked for now; it's only C- after all, a rank filled with similarly situational and flawed Pokemon. Shedinja beats Magearna sets, though you obviously have to scout for Trick from Choice Specs. It also beats Tapu Lele, Calm Mind Tapu Fini, Choice Band Melmetal, and Thunder Clefable, which are all Pokemon that can be annoying for certain stall teams to deal with. Ofcourse it has a dozen flaws to compensate for this, but the mentioned perks alone should make it worth some consideration on stall teams atleast.

Moving on from lower tier Pokemon that hardly matter, I think that Hydreigon should definitely rise. Its defensive niche has become less valuable with Spectrier's departure from the tier, but its Life Orb set has been freed up and it is absolutely lethal and easily one of the best wallbreakers in the metagame. It is an incredible threat to the typical Slowking / Slowbro bulky offense teams and is no fun for balance teams to face either, especially if you pair it with Heal Bell. Unfortunately Hydreigon does suffer from some 4MSS; it really wants to fit all of Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Roost, Flamethrower, Nasty Plot, and Flash Cannon, but it's a fairly consistent wallbreaker regardless of what you choose. This Pokemon should definitely rise to A and you could probably make an argument for A+ too.

 

[Tzolkin]

I was generally stating the fact that it has multiple Checks, and Counters. Even with Status Sponges, and a Defogger, it’s still checked by lots of things. Shed may be able to fit on some Stall Teams, but generally, it is not needed. I agree with hiss, when he says that Trick makes Shedinja dog poop. I see it’s niche on Stall Teams, but it isn’t as good as you think it is.

Dude we are talking about a C- mon not a B or some shit. Yes it only fits into stall, yes it loses vs a lot of common stuff, but it also beats a lot of common stuff like Jordy pointed out. I know stall is subpar this gen but Shedinja is one of the best ways of dealing with some stallbreakers like Fini and some very annoying set-up sweepers like Magearna which it always beats no matter the set (sure, it becomes vulnerable to rocks with trick but it still walls magearna and most importantly can run trick of its own to counter mag). I suggest you stop making nominations about very niche mons that you hadn't even tested before making an opinion.

 

[Jordy]

I didn’t nominate Shedinja to go Unranked, but I kinda agreed with hiss. I get that it‘s good at dealing, with them, as I have tested Shedinja before, but, again, it isn’t as good as you make it seem. Someway, or somehow, in a Battle, I preserved Shedinja, until Fini was the only one left. It PP Stalled me successfully because it didn’t have Scald. (For some reason, it didn’t.) Fini also can burn Shed, and can very much screw it, like this one time when I switched into it, and forgot Scald had a chance of Burn. (Well, I didn’t forget, but yeah.) I agree it could force out a Sweeper, or two, but definitely not a lot of them. Magearna definitely is threatened, but Dragapult, Cinderace, and Lando-T are the most common Mons, behind Mag. All of which screw Shedinja. While I do think it could go Unranked, I didn’t put it on my post because I still see it has niche. It would be on my nominations, otherwise.

For the record, it cannot burn Shedinja because Shedinja cannot be hit by Scald. Don't let this derail discuss but it's something you should keep in mind...

 

[BitBitio]

Magearna should start running Shadow Ball exclusively for Shedinja
Nomming Hatterene to C+ or lower
What does this thing even do? Why was it ranked so high in the first place? CM sets can be a solid wincon, sure, but I frankly think that Latios, Tapu Lele, Tapu Fini, Clefable, and Magearna all heavily outclass it as CM users, and also just as Pokemon. Its niche stems from three things: CM sets, Magic Bounce, and the ability to set TR. I think that none of these very niche roles is worth it being ranked so highly. TR as an archetype is barely ranked, and Magic Bounce is not enough to merit a spot in B-. It gets beat by many, many Pokemon in the upper echelons of OU and is by no means able to keep up. I'm sure someone has reasoning to convince me otherwise? It'd have to be an excellent point. Maybe I'm wrong, but Hatt just seems out of place where it currently is.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Just a couple of noms here:

Zeraora: C+ -> B+
A lot has been said about this mon that others have already covered. It was underrated before, and it is finally getting attention as a decent pivot with good attributes such as speed, utility moves like knock off + toxic, and a situational electric immunity. I would be glad to raise it to B+ at the least, but hold on discussion for higher ranks until we see more games.

Aegislash: B -> B+/A-
Haven't exactly found a good tier for Aegislash, but it should rise. It is effective in it's two most widely used sets, Toxic + Substitute and Specs. With the horse gone, ghost type competition is less one-sided, and Aegislash should be more effective as a wall/stallbreaker. I saw a couple of noms for Aegislash, but wanted to also throw my weight behind it.

Lando-T: A+ -> S
The King of OU has returned to it's throne as the most widely used and one of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. I may not like it, but he should be S Rank to reflect the current reality

Some other noms I agree with without explanation:

Corviknight: A- -> A
Tornadus-T: A -> A+
Melmetal: A+ -> A
Hatterene: B- -> C+
Alowak: Unranked

 

[JeebusMcFunk]

Just some noms from me. (Sorry it ended up being a lot of them)

Raises

Lando-T A+ > S

I really feel as if Lando deserves the bump up in rank. He is supremely useful and versatile, he can be a terror and play both defensively and offensively. He is among the most widely used mons in the game as well, every bit on par with Mag

Cinderace A+ > S

Ace is another mon I just feel like really helps define the meta atm. Libero alone makes him exceptionally difficult to check, his movepool is vast and almost always useful, and his speed is quite high. I think it was said before, but this is the new Greninja

Rillaboom A > S-

I know S- might be controversial, but I really think he deserves it. With his HA giving terrain and his power to Grassy Glide he just gets the prio and is, imo, the most terrifying cleanup in the entire game bar none. His ability to also run Knock and U-Turn offers him plenty of opportunity to play smart, and look at this big gorilla's attack! I think everyone can agree when played right, bringing the Boom is devastating.

Slowbro A > A+

Without ghost horse, slowbro is certainly less checked. I really like him in his current state, I think he is the best of the poke line. Not much else can be said, he lost his absolute best check and only got better.

Corviknight A- > A/A+

I think Corv is easily deserving of an A, and you can make a case for him in A+. He is, imo, the best defogger in the current meta. He is a blanket check to so many threats and Sub/Taunt/Bulk sets make him a scary good stall check.

Dragapult A- > A

No horse? No problem. I think Pult is the biggest ghost that comes out a winner from sending dead horse out to the farm in the sky. His speed is great, and we all know with specs he can really tear through teams with things like Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball. Plus he has a very nice couple coverage options in his final slot

Kyurem B+ > A-

I don't think this should be controversial right now. We all can see how increased his usage has been. I think he is a very solid mon in the current meta. Not sure if anyone would disagree

Hippowdon B+ > A-

I think it's time we finally acknowledge that Hippowdon deserves a little bit of a bump. He is now what I would consider the best at setting up sand, and he serves as a solid check to Cinderace while also being able to switch in on scary mons like Lando or Chomp, can set up rocks reliably, and can even serve as a minor check to some builds of Mag with WW. I don't think he is an amazing mon that deserves a massive bump, but I think a little nod would be fair

Aegislash B > B+/A-

I think B+ is more fitting, a minor bump with the ghost horse gone. But I think Pult is the big winner, still Slash should see more use. He possesses quite a bit of power behind him and King's Shield helps a lot with his own defense as it always has.

Genger C+ > B-

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this, but Sub Gengar has been working quite well imo. Maybe he isn't deserving of the bump, but I am going to go ahead and nom it. I think he does, maybe others will agree.

Drops

Melmetal A+ > A/A-

Melmetal really doesn't deserve to be in the same rank as absolute units like Lando-T or Cinderace, nor above a mon like Rillaboom or Zapdos. I feel he has lost a lot of oomph recently, and I can't tend to fit him in most teams I create. I'd rather another steel user. Despite his great stats, he feels underwhelming. Obviously, he doesn't deserve to fall out of the As, but I don't think A+ defines him.

Excadrill A > A-

It pains me to say this, but I think my favorite mole probably deserves a derank. As a suicide lead he is outclassed by Lando, and he can certainly be outclassed with his typing. I think he still clings to the A's, but I think he is noticeably weaker than mons in A itself.

Tyranitar A- > B+

Godzilla is just absolutely horrible against Mag, and he is a huge loser with the Spectrier ban. He still has use on Sand teams, which I do think are still viable, but he is essentially free set-up bait or even an easy kill to what is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, mons in the current meta.

Buzzswole B > B-/C+

Urshifu is gone and Buzzswole kind of finds himself lost in the meta now. He was the hero we all needed him to be, but since then he really just doesn't cut it. I prefer him in B-, I think he still possesses some power behind him, but he just doesn't have much a place anymore.

Hatterene B- > C+ or Lower

What can I say that hasn't been said about her? She really is just underwhelming. I defer my points to what it seems everyone else is saying about her.

Moltres-Galar B > C

Galtres is higher than Zapdos-G???? I didn't even notice. There is absolutely no way he deserves to have a B rank, and I could even argue him into C-. I think he is mostly irrelevant in the current meta.

Exploud Get rid of him?

He is not deserving of a rank lol. I know he was a Spectrier ban, but I guess UR if we really want to keep him in here. I don't like him around.

Is this too many nominations?

 

[alkazoth]

I would like to specifically mention one mon who I think has proven to be a defining factor in this metagame, and then I'll mention a few others.


A- --> A+

I'm gonna start this off by saying that IMO Glowking is a top 10 mon rn. Not even debatable. With Urshifu and Spectrier gone, 2 of the main mons who were holding it back, Glowking is now the best it's ever been. Glowking is absolutely nuts and I think it's a damn shame that it's only in A-. Glowking without a doubt undoubtedly deserves to be in A+. Assault Vest+Regenerator is a deadly duo that allows it to be an amazing spdef wall/pivot, and it helps that it has 95/110 special bulk on top of that. Despite being a wall, much like Toxapex back in dlc 1, it's somehow just as hard to switch into (except it's not busted), sporting a base 110 spat and a large movepool to threaten its checks. It can choose between these moves:

• Sludge Bomb as one of its stabs to fish for poisons, which can severely cripple checks that often switch into it like Lando and Chomp.
• Future Sight (for delayed damage)/Psychic (for immediate damage) as its other stab.
• Scald to check mons like Heatran and Lando, the latter who hates getting burned.
• Flamethrower for steels like Corv, Melm, and Mage who would otherwise wall Glowking and switch in for free.
• Earthquake as a fringe pick if you really wanna 2hko Heatran since Scald does only 30%. If you're gonna run EQ, make sure you give Glowking a Sassy nature so it doesn't have an attack lowering nature.

AV Glowking is the only actual switch in to Specs Magearna, since Blissey can wall all it wants, but if they make a correct prediction and use Trick on the switch in, it's game over for Bliss. Glowking, unlike Bliss, isn't deadweight when tricked with Specs and can still put a good amount of work in. Heatran also walls Mage's stabs but will keep getting chipped over time by Volt Switches, which isn't a problem for Glowking because it just heals them off. Magearna might not even be banworthy because of this mon, altho I won't say that for certain, since Mage has proven to be the best mon in the tier and may end up being problematic over the course of the meta's constant development. Time will dictate whether that's true or not. I'd also like to shoutout the Nasty Plot set that people have been running as of late. My friend epsilon showed me it and I can't thank him enough. It puts in so much work, and people always play like it's vest, but then when it gets to +2 they can't do much at all. Such a great breaker, I highly suggest everyone who reads this to use it and see for yourself.

Slowking-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Sludge Bomb

I'd also like to mention a few other mons.


A- --> A+
Ever since the Spec ban, Pult is finally the top ghost again, able to disgustingly spam Twave to para and Hex to abuse mons with status. Speed tier is phenomenal, and Boots allows it to pivot freely. Move this guy back up to where it belongs.



A --> A+
An amazing defogger and the best knocker in the tier. Torn with Boots is no laughing matter, and that speed tier is awesome. IMO not S tier material yet, but my opinion might shift as the meta progresses. If Torn keeps this up, we're gonna have to hold a suspect test for it in the future.



A+ --> S
The 2nd best mon in the tier, Cinderace more than deserves to move up to S. With very limited counterplay, it is extremely hard to find a way to out-offense it, and getting stab from every move is part of what makes it so deadly.



A+ --> S
Lando is another mon I want moved up to S. This mon was probs S way before I posted this, especially in the Shifu meta, where it was role compression in a meta with no compression. Having basically every utility move in the game, along with an awesome typing, there is no way this mon doesn't define the tier. Lando's entire competitive career has been nothing short of a massive win streak, claiming his rightful spot at #1 most used mon, sorry Clef.



A+ --> S
Garchomp is nuts. The addition of Scale Shot is the closest we've gotten to a Dragon Dance Garchomp. DD would probs be better since it packs an attack and speed boost into one, Scale Shot is no laughing matter. It outspeeds everything at +1 and OHKOs everything at +2 with LO. Chomp can get away with setting up due to its already great natural bulk. Move this mon up please.



C+ --> B+
With Urshifu and Spectrier gone, Reuni is finally usable again. Reuni can be a filthy wincon and balance breaker again with its cm set, and having Magic Guard avoids hazard and status damage. Recover gives it useful recovery while setting up, making it nigh impossible to break through if it gets going.

 

[jambajuicedrink]

Thundurus-Therian C+ -> B

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder
- Weather Ball
- Focus Blast

If you are looking for a way to spice up your rain team, look no further. In nearly every game, this mon is able to grab 1+ kill with both high power and great coverage. Thunder having a 30% paralysis rate can be a great bonus along with the extra base power (think Hurricane's confuse rate but better). Weather Ball in rain is able to eliminate all traditional ground switch-ins. Even if another weather condition is set, Thundurus-T can usually make use of the new coverage option. Focus Blast destroys Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, two of the most annoying mons to play against with a rain team. It's typing, along with Volt Absorb, also makes Thundurus-T a great check to Zapdos - it's usually capable of preventing a Hawlucha sweep if at full health. Please try this mon out and report back!

 

[qwertyman888]

I have some more things to say about the VR:
STAY A
Mandibuzz was mostly A rank before the Spectrier ban for its role as a pretty splashable Defogger that also acted as a Spectrier check. Seen a few posts about how it doesn't deserve this rank anymore, and I'll have to disagree. For one, it's a great Rillaboom, Kartana, Dragonite, and Dragapult check, and is also a good pivot and Knock Off user. In my opinion, it's still great on stall too; it easily handles things that threaten to ruin it, like Kartana. It's somewhat vulnerable to Knock Off itself, but to be honest, every defogger not named Corviknight suffers from the same problem. It also checks Cinderace to an extent if at full HP, since it is free to run physdef sets now. It's also not prone to getting trapped with the Rillaboom+Zone core.

Speaking of Corviknight:
A- to A+
Corviknight is probably the most glue-y defogger in the meta right now, and it can check several things other defoggers can't. It can run both physically defensive, specially defensive,or even Bulk Up/ Iron Defense sets. Its typing is great; it can't get Toxic'd like most defoggers, and is also a great defogger itself, almost always able to take hazards down. It's pretty great right now, especially with Pressure, and I think it's worthy of A+ rank.

In addition:
B to B-
Dragonite is kind of lukewarm for me; it's predictable(comes in and just clicks DD), insanely easy to check, and its main set right now, Wingbeat/Earthquake/Dragon Dance/Roost, it gets spit on by Corviknight, Zapdos, Mandibuzz, and more. It can be a good cleaner, but you REALLY need to kill off or HEAVILY chip most of its checks before it can clean at all. Its utility / defensive sets are cool, but not reliable enough to counterbalance its easily-checkable DD sets and keep it B rank in my opinion. It's actually considerably worse then Dragon Dance Dragapult(and is that set even good?) Definitely worth putting it where Barraskewda is.

B to B+
Volcarona is a great sweeper and works on HO, BO, balance, and more. It's got two reliable checks, but that doesn't make it bad by any means; in a matchup against a Blisseyless or Heatranless team, getting Volcarona in can mean a win. Its QD+Roost+Psychic+Fire move of choice set is pretty great right now, as well as its somewhat standard QD+3 attacks. Even in matchups against Blissey or Heatran teams, if the opponent fails to preserve them, Volcarona can just come in and do its thing. The common-ness of its checks keeps it out of the higher ranks, but it's very worthy to be up there with Latios.

B to B+
As much as I hate to say this, Hawlucha is good. Though its only niche is on HO and nowhere else, HO is rather prevalent right now, and it excels, especially with SD+Dualstab+Stone Edge. I personally don't like it. Its Attack stat's low, and it's annoying. It's certainly checkable(e.g. Zapdos, Corviknight) but I think it's deserving of B+ for its cleaning potential.

A to A-
Good on sand, yet very checkable. Not the splashable Mold Breaker spinner it used to be. Bodied by Rillaboom, which already hard counters most sand. It's still an amazing cleaner, and those Gravity sand teams running around make it even better. Just not quite worthy of A right now.

I'll also back these:
A- to A (NOT A+)
Great special wall, with access to Regenerator. Its STABS and coverage let it threaten things while also sitting on them, and can even beat Heatran if its health is high and the Heatran is chipped. SUPER splashable thanks to Future Sight(which it doesn't even have to run). It's also vicious paired with Corviknight or Mandibuzz on stall. Weak to a common type in Ground(which is what holds it back), but it's really flexible and a fun mon to use. It checks Specs Magearna, but unfortunately loses to Screens setup sets. Still great overall and blanket checks a lot of special attackers. I can see A+ happening but I feel like it deserves A.

C+ to B
DEFINITELY usable. It's amazing on rain, compliments its teammates with its Ability, and nails its switchins. Also, it looks cool as fuck. Boots made it even better, and it gets access to Volt Switch to take advantage of that if the user wishes. Nasty Plot sets are also great, with its amazing Special Attack, and the only thing holding it back is its speed tier.

 

[viet noa]

I have some more things to say about the VR:
STAY A
Mandibuzz was mostly A rank before the Spectrier ban for its role as a pretty splashable Defogger that also acted as a Spectrier check. Seen a few posts about how it doesn't deserve this rank anymore, and I'll have to disagree. For one, it's a great Rillaboom, Kartana, Dragonite, and Dragapult check, and is also a good pivot and Knock Off user. In my opinion, it's still great on stall too; it easily handles things that threaten to ruin it, like Kartana. It's somewhat vulnerable to Knock Off itself, but to be honest, every defogger not named Corviknight suffers from the same problem. It also checks Cinderace to an extent if at full HP, since it is free to run physdef sets now. It's also not prone to getting trapped with the Rillaboom+Zone core.

Speaking of Corviknight:
A- to A+
Corviknight is probably the most glue-y defogger in the meta right now, and it can check several things other defoggers can't. It can run both physically defensive, specially defensive,or even Bulk Up/ Iron Defense sets. Its typing is great; it can't get Toxic'd like most defoggers, and is also a great defogger itself, almost always able to take hazards down. It's pretty great right now, especially with Pressure, and I think it's worthy of A+ rank.

In addition:
B to B-
Dragonite is kind of lukewarm for me; it's predictable(comes in and just clicks DD), insanely easy to check, and its main set right now, Wingbeat/Earthquake/Dragon Dance/Roost, it gets spit on by Corviknight, Zapdos, Mandibuzz, and more. It can be a good cleaner, but you REALLY need to kill off or HEAVILY chip most of its checks before it can clean at all. Its utility / defensive sets are cool, but not reliable enough to counterbalance its easily-checkable DD sets and keep it B rank in my opinion. It's actually considerably worse then Dragon Dance Dragapult(and is that set even good?) Definitely worth putting it where Barraskewda is.

B to B+
Volcarona is a great sweeper and works on HO, BO, balance, and more. It's got two reliable checks, but that doesn't make it bad by any means; in a matchup against a Blisseyless or Heatranless team, getting Volcarona in can mean a win. Its QD+Roost+Psychic+Fire move of choice set is pretty great right now, as well as its somewhat standard QD+3 attacks. Even in matchups against Blissey or Heatran teams, if the opponent fails to preserve them, Volcarona can just come in and do its thing. The common-ness of its checks keeps it out of the higher ranks, but it's very worthy to be up there with Latios.

B to B+
As much as I hate to say this, Hawlucha is good. Though its only niche is on HO and nowhere else, HO is rather prevalent right now, and it excels, especially with SD+Dualstab+Stone Edge. I personally don't like it. Its Attack stat's low, and it's annoying. It's certainly checkable(e.g. Zapdos, Corviknight) but I think it's deserving of B+ for its cleaning potential.

A to A-
Good on sand, yet very checkable. Not the splashable Mold Breaker spinner it used to be. Bodied by Rillaboom, which already hard counters most sand. It's still an amazing cleaner, and those Gravity sand teams running around make it even better. Just not quite worthy of A right now.

I'll also back these:
A- to A (NOT A+)
Great special wall, with access to Regenerator. Its STABS and coverage let it threaten things while also sitting on them, and can even beat Heatran if its health is high and the Heatran is chipped. SUPER splashable thanks to Future Sight(which it doesn't even have to run). It's also vicious paired with Corviknight or Mandibuzz on stall. Weak to a common type in Ground(which is what holds it back), but it's really flexible and a fun mon to use. It checks Specs Magearna, but unfortunately loses to Screens setup sets. Still great overall and blanket checks a lot of special attackers. I can see A+ happening but I feel like it deserves A.

C+ to B
DEFINITELY usable. It's amazing on rain, compliments its teammates with its Ability, and nails its switchins. Also, it looks cool as fuck. Boots made it even better, and it gets access to Volt Switch to take advantage of that if the user wishes. Nasty Plot sets are also great, with its amazing Special Attack, and the only thing holding it back is its speed tier.

not really sure how i feel about staying at A tier. even when it served as a spectrier “check”, it was still falling out of favor because bulky sub+wisp variants of the horse could make mandibuzz setup fodder.

with spectrier now being banned, mandibuzz is still inevitably falling off in some regard. sure, it does decently against kartana and rillaboom, but it also has to worry about knock off severely hurting its longevity. it generally does good versus dragapult, but it also has to worry about specs/scarf thunderbolt.

mandibuzz has three attacking moves that can be absolutely essential for it, but it doesn’t have space to fit all three of it. it’s similar to the moltres problem ~ give it knock off and foul play, you lose the ability to pivot easily. give it knock off and u turn, and the damage you deal is far more passive. give it foul play and u turn, and you don’t get that utility from arguably the most versatile attack in the game. of course, it’s gotta run defog + roost or else it’s far far worse.

mandibuzz still has its merits ~ its defensive typing is great, it has lots of potential utility, and it’s bulky by design. with that being said, it doesn’t scream an A tier pokémon to me, especially with the fierce defog competition.

 

[Obsidian297]

Please try this mon out and report back!

I can confirm, very deadly. Its advantages over Zapdos are:

• Volt Absorb, allowing for easy pivoting
• Nasty Plot, and a far higher special attack, allowing it to nuke basically everything
• 101 speed, which allows it to outspeed the 100 tier, including Zapdos

It does have its flaws, requiring rocks to be off the field, being a lot frailer and lacking Hurricane.

I found NP + 3 attacks solid, but I found a Specs set to be absolutely demonic, and it made Zapdos seem like an RU Mon in terms of power.

That being said, I don't see it above B-, there's a reason Zapdos is the standard while Thunderus is niche.

Also, has anyone tried Venom Drench Glowking/Toxapex? It's a nice slow pivot, but it needs the team to be built around it.

Can someone try those sets and report back?

 

[viet noa]

i’ve spent time on this thread critiquing/commenting on other people’s opinions, so i might as well bring up my own takes (which are probably crappy, but oh well lol)

down to A- or B+
as i mentioned in my previous comment ~ mandibuzz has a nice niche as a decently bulky defogger with utility moves like knock & uturn, as well as the potentially powerful foul play. however, as stated before, its competition is a bit too overwhelming for it to truly be an A tier pokémon, especially considering that it gets hit really hard by 4mss, since it’s naturally weak.

up to S
cinderace has always been amazing, but as other wallbreakers/sweepers have gotten banned (urshifu, spectrier, etc), cinderace faces less competition as one of the premier offensive pokémon. with ridiculous STAB on all of its attacks, as well as fantastic coverage attacks to threaten its potential counters, i feel like cinderace is right up there with magearna as a meta-defining threats. the 4 attacks pivoting set will always be the bread and butter, and the ability to switch between adamant and jolly (and get great results from both natures) is a one-of-a-kind situation. i also think there’s some potential to be had in the bulk up set, although i understand that it’s not super easy to consistently take advantage of.

up to A
with tapu lele’s biggest worries all being now banned, there’s now a bigger opportunity for it to shine than ever. of course, it still can get mauled over by physical wallbreakers that outrun its middling 95 speed tier. with that being said, i feel like tapu lele is almost always able to put in massive amounts of work when in the right hands. specs is my favorite lele set, as psychic/psyshock gets boosted by it & terrain to create ridiculous amounts of damage. with that said, it also functions as a great revenge killer with scarf, due to it naturally being strong + already having great coverage. it can even potentially set up with calm mind, but it works best as one of the strongest choice users in the meta, IMO.

maybe up to C-? idk lmao
this one is a complete shot in the dark, but i feel like AV copperajah isn’t terrible. i mean, it obviously has its flaws, but it can win 1v1 situations against volcarona (survives +1 flamethrower, kills w/ stone edge), slowking-g (does 80% w/ eq), ferrothorn, specs/scarf dragapult (87.5% chance to kill after rocks with heavy slam), clefable, and maybe magearna (survives a +2 life orb aura sphere).

admittedly though, this is all involving 1v1 situations, involving zero ways for copperajah to recover health (besides wish passes from others), and 100% hypothetical. so take all of this with a grain of salt, i just think there’s some fun potential to be had.

 

[Obsidian297]

maybe up to C-? idk lmao
this one is a complete shot in the dark, but i feel like AV copperajah isn’t terrible. i mean, it obviously has its flaws, but it can win 1v1 situations against volcarona (survives +1 flamethrower, kills w/ stone edge), slowking-g (does 80% w/ eq), ferrothorn, specs/scarf dragapult (87.5% chance to kill after rocks with heavy slam), clefable, and maybe magearna (survives a +2 life orb aura sphere).

admittedly though, this is all involving 1v1 situations, involving zero ways for copperajah to recover health (besides wish passes from others), and 100% hypothetical. so take all of this with a grain of salt, i just think there’s some fun potential to be had.

While nominating an unranked Mon, don't go on hypotheticals, show examples of AV Cooperajah being viable in this meta, otherwise your point is seen as irrelevant

Agree with everything else though

 

[Jordy]

To add to that, you also need replays to nominate unranked Pokemon. Please keep that in mind for in the future.

 

[viet noa]

To add to that, you also need replays to nominate unranked Pokemon. Please keep that in mind for in the future.

alrighty, thanks for letting me know. my mistake, i can edit out that part of my post if u guys want me to

 

[Apokalyptic]

Cinderace A+ -> S
I agree with the general sentiment. When playing as ace I have great success and feel like he always puts in work. The good coverage and STAB on all hits makes him a threat against most meta mons. Playing against him is always difficult because he gets a lot of free chip with u turns and is a huge threat you have to always play around. Overall I think he has a place in literally any team because of his versatility and amazing speed tier.

Lando-T STAY A+
I agree Lando is a strong pick and has every utility but disagree with that he should be moved up to S tier. He is good in that he can consistently be put in most teams as both setup and a switch in to both ground and electric. Additionally his access to rocks, defog, eq, toxic, rock slide, u turn mean he is extremely versatile and can be built to support your teams function. I think the reason he should not be S is due to the fact that he is definitely something that can be played around. I find it is often easy to bait him or force him to swap in and proactively switch to gain tempo. Due to his very clear strengths it means the opponent can play into often knowing how he will be used which imo is a clear weakness.

Bisharp C -> A
This is something I haven't seen too much talk about. I feel like his speed tier and solid attack make him a considerable threat. It is extremely potent if it can swap into a defog turn and can run away with the game. Additionally, with the ability to run strong STAB including sucker punch make it a formidable threat to most teams. This is just mainly based on my play against him on ladder but I have found him often very difficult to deal with.

 

[gye5]

I wanna nominate salamence to C+, this mon has some unique atributes that makes this dragon unique. Dragonite is the most obvious competition, but nite really rely on boots to work, and with the rise of toxic lando its sweep is cut short and inmediatly threatning. I have seen some defensive mence with wish, the most popular right now when see in OU. I have tried banded, dd but the one i am gonna show and maybe its most effective is mix mence. I run it with life orb and people should start dropping boots sometimes, yes it takes rocks and I dont want people to mention that argument beacause I know it, but the power boost is jsut amazing look at the set:
Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane/iron tail/air slash
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
Many lando just stay on mence because is lando hopefully u get the point, slowbro is another mon that suffer for staying in on everything. But the real deal is that break so many cores and checks ace which is amazing. Kyurem, the bane of dragonite, like to stay expecting that u wont do much on return and get draco to dust, heatran doesnt stay on mence first play, but afetr u throw some special atacks to its team mates like ferro and lando it eventually comes out. earquake is laso nice because after the drop, mons like ttar and mag think that they have a easy set up or just ko mons. I am not saying is gonna define the meta, but it is heavily underated and even unranked unlike some many ****. I have a replay for evidence

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1283671587

 

[Obsidian297]

The issue with is that he is heavily outclassed by other mons.

Want a physically bulky but also threatening Mon? Use or

Want a purely special threat that can beat 1 on 1? Use or or even

Want a DD sweeper? Use

Want a late game cleaner? Use .

Want a wish Mon with offensive pressure? Not actually sure about this, but seems like it outclasses Mence. Plus, outclasses Mence on the bulk aspect

Mence just doesn't stand out in any particular way. Perhaps someone innovates with a great Mence set, and I've tried so many, but they come so short from reliable game to game threats.

I don't have an issue supporting this nom, it's just C+, but I don't see the niche this set has that other special attackers can't do.

 

[gye5]

The issue with is that he is heavily outclassed by other mons.

Want a physically bulky but also threatening Mon? Use or

Want a purely special threat that can beat 1 on 1? Use or or even

Want a DD sweeper? Use

Want a late game cleaner? Use .

Want a wish Mon with offensive pressure? Not actually sure about this, but seems like it outclasses Mence. Plus, outclasses Mence on the bulk aspect

Mence just doesn't stand out in any particular way. Perhaps someone innovates with a great Mence set, and I've tried so many, but they come so short from reliable game to game threats.

I don't have an issue supporting this nom, it's just C+, but I don't see the niche this set has that other special attackers can't do.

Disagree, many C mons are way worse than mence, it is the fact that dont try it enough that make some people believe it, and you used the entire metagame to just compare mence. That is like saying X mons is bad because it cant do ABCDEF..... mons work at the same time

 

[death dreigon]

The issue with is that he is heavily outclassed by other mons.

Want a physically bulky but also threatening Mon? Use or

Want a purely special threat that can beat 1 on 1? Use or or even

Want a DD sweeper? Use

Want a late game cleaner? Use .

Want a wish Mon with offensive pressure? Not actually sure about this, but seems like it outclasses Mence. Plus, outclasses Mence on the bulk aspect

Mence just doesn't stand out in any particular way. Perhaps someone innovates with a great Mence set, and I've tried so many, but they come so short from reliable game to game threats.

I don't have an issue supporting this nom, it's just C+, but I don't see the niche this set has that other special attackers can't do.

I also agree w the reasons u gave. I def support mence to be ranked but only till C- rather than C+ which is a bit of a stretch.

Btw when would the vr update. I feel like its high time for it