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Lati@s in OU??

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sanjay120 said:
Hey, guys, Manaphy can't get past Blissey either! Let's move it to OU! That would surely make for great competitive battling tiers.

Seriously name a few more SpecsLatios counters. TBolt/Draco Meteor/HP Fighting. Do it.
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Heracross should not be named a counter, but Scarf variations can outrun it and go in for the kill. Again, I don't name it as a counter, because it can't switch in to Draco Meteor.

Bronzong can force it out if locked on Draco Meteor or HP Fighting, status if it doesn't, and may finally have a viable use for Payback. Yes, I'm serious. Payback. 80/80 defenses are decent, but not spectacular.
 
Bronzong, forgot he could do that. Revenge killers and prediction seem to be the only things I can think of.

Dammit this thing needs Flamethrower.
 
I'm not going to get into an argument based on whether they should be OU, but I will bring up an important point that many people are forgetting. Too many people are comparing latios to salamence and how Latios is a superior version. Salamence's power comes from the fact that it is very unpredictable. It can go mixed in order to help beat it's counters while Latios can't do that as successfully. They should be tested, but even though I want the latis to become OU, I don't think they will.
 
Aldaron said:
Hmmm, I'd like to emphasize Astrohawke's point. It is simply because of being completely walled by Blissey that Specsmence has pretty much given way to Mixmence.

Assuming this same trend occuring with Lati@s, what would happen is that the Calm Mind versions would surface, and Recover off those trivial Seismic Tosses...until Blissey's start replacing Thunder Wave with Toxic, and Lati@s is completely defeated by her.

This would then lead to Dragon Dancing Latios...which is also defeated by a Toxic + Softboiled combination, in addition to simply being more of a gimmick set.

The bottom line is that the practical reality is that being completely walled by the most popular (by far) wall in the game pretty much guarantees that it won't see much usage.

And in terms of power, well, Lati@s is simply not as impressive as initially thought.

And Eyaang: No.
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Both learn Safeguard, Latias learns Refresh. Good luck stopping that.
 
Just out of curiosity have "The Lexx, Sanjay120 or Blaziken 57 even tested these things in a standard OU match as yet?
 
It is my suggestion that if you haven't you really shouldnt post anymore in this thread untill you have, this thread would be better off if people spoke about their experiences instead of theorizing everything. This doesnt only pertain to the three names i mentioned, it goes for the majority of common posters in this thread.

Also for right now i'm currently i'm agreeing with what MOP posted earlier up in the thread.

Aeroblacktyl said:
You guys bitch a lot about irrelevent stuff that pretty much applies to every single Pokemon, truth be told.
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I see your point, but I have no way of testing the Latis as of now. The problem I have with them is kind of the same problem I have with Primeape being in UU. It has one or two true counters, the rest is prediction.
 
I played a "tester" using latias and latios without soul dew.


I didn't have a chance in hellz. only way I killed 1 was because of sandstorm and a lucky WoW/toxic (idk which)
 
Pokerade said:
I played a "tester" using latias and latios without soul dew.


I didn't have a chance in hellz. only way I killed 1 was because of sandstorm and a lucky WoW/toxic (idk which)
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Not exactly what i was looking for, at least explain why you think you lost to it.

Also its ok Sanjay, but just keep in mind you cant actually test them, so things might not always be they way you theorize them, theorymon is prone to failure, not that im trying to single you out or anything
 
éyaang said:
attn "someone": If Souldew-less Lati@s is allowed in OU, then I want my CBBliss and Brave Iron Ball Deoxys-E in UU.

Seriously guys, you can't just say "x should be tier y if it carries (not) x". Either Lati@s will be allowed, or banned, Souldew or not Souldew.
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The argument for clausing Soul Dew is because Nintendo events and the Battle Frontier and Tower already stop it. In any case, it's just banning an item - it isn't restricting them to only carry one item, like your CBBliss and Iron Ball Deoxys-E examples show.
 
I wish they came to OU, they some of my favorite pogeymanz, but it just will never happened.

1. Both of them,if they could have soul dew, would put Specmence out of buisness, by doing more damage. Without it, they can still out speed Specmence, and KO with dragon pulse.
2. Latias takes second best special wall. Not better then blissey, because her weakness to Dragon and ice.

3. Latios would be best sweeping dragon, other then CSchomp, due to it out speeding every other dragon.
4. Seeing as almost every set of the latis carries Calm Mind, after a few of them,Even blissey will start to be hurting
5. They both have recover.
6. They have Levitate.
7. Would make sure ether CMblissey with Ice Beam and Toxic, or CMCresselia with Ice Beam, and Psycho Shift Burn orb.(Or somthing similar to that)
8. Huge movepool. Has so much options for moveset, that could cost you games if you mispredict. Not likely, but it can happen/
 
God damn it! I agree with Maniac! Flash Gears have you even tested it? It looks good on paper, well so did a lot of OU pokemon... Seriously Lati@s in not even hard to take out.
 
Lati@s in OU would be without a doubt exciting! Perhaps I haven't read through these 10 pages as thoroughly as a ought to, but no one (not even the people who have tested them) has answered this important question concerning their viability in OU: Which pokemon(s) will suffer the fate of obscurity following the change?

I have honestly never played them in an OU environment, but if I may venture a guess, the use of one of my personal favorites, Infernape, will decline. For its incredible moveset (fire, fight, grass, thunder(punch) and rock), the only things to really damage the two are hp ice and u-turn.

Gyarados use might also decline as both STAB attacks are negated, stone edge is neutral, leaving only ice fang, a base 65 ice attack.


These are major ones that are 'countered,' if anyone else may be brave enough to venture a guess or two, be my guest!
 
Maniaclyrasist said:
Also its ok Sanjay, but just keep in mind you cant actually test them, so things might not always be they way you theorize them, theorymon is prone to failure, not that im trying to single you out or anything
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Yeah, I know, but people were theorymoning Manaphy for Ubers and they were right. It's all I can do now, so I do it. Obviously there are flaws, because the set I posted, while having very few true counters, is easily beaten by prediction. Like I said, it's comparable to Primeape in UU.
 
I just noticed we're saying the same things over and over again. We've been hearing "Lati@s would put SpecsMence out of business", "Their power is ridiculous", "Huge movepool" and etc etc etc. How about we test them before running into a repeated chain of equal conclusions? What I don't understand is why some people won't even bother testing them. They just go straight into theory. Just one test isn't enough. And also look at Garchomp/TTar. This may sound crazy, and I mean CRAZY, but I think the reasoning between the Lati judgment in uber is because it is a legendary, whereas people are hesitant to have Garchomp uber just because it is a non legend (don't go to Wobb please), and possibly because of its 4x weak to Ice and not being as powerful as Rayquaza. Well whatever, my point is try to get better reasons why they are uber, because otherwise this thread becomes absolutely useless for anything but argumentfest.

For the rest of my point, just go and read Maniaclyrasist's post.
 
^ It's true that people don't want to see Tar and Garchomp in Ubers because they're not legendary. I remember when people were like 'Azelf should be Uber.' and one of the responses was (I kid you not) 'No it's one of the legendary trios we don't ban those.'
 
Actually I have somewhat (referring to maniaclyrasist) back before they were uber on the site I came from.

Anyways, I don't think the fact that Tyranitar can come in for a revenge-kill and Pursuit it signifies anything, as Metagross could come in on Deoxys-A and Pursuit it to death, but that didn't do a damn thing to its uber status. Latios 2HKOs with Grass Knot anyways, and HP Fighting just lols at anyone calling it a reliable counter.

I'd just like to point out that I have used them in standards. Like I said, the site I came from didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that Lati@s were uber, and for the majority of my time there I saw Latias pop up every other game. And I can safely say that it has very few safe switch-ins. Cresselia has a blast with repeated Draco Meteors, same with Snorlax and Regice, plus with Hippo on your team, none of those has any good recovery. I'd say Blissey is the best 100% counter against Specs versions, but DUH, we already figured that one out.

Choice Scarf Weavile can revenge-kill Deoxys-A, Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Rayquaza, yet I don't see them dropping down to OU status. Also, I don't see great evidence of testing for the contrary, either. Plus you guys say that we haven't tested enough, well the only evidence of testing is one of Brawley's post, which was pretty much "Me and maniaclyrasist has a test Lati@s battle, we had a discussion and realized that if dies to Pursuit and we realized it's OK at best", which doesn't tell me a thing. Yes, you and Brawley had a few matches, and it failed one of you, so I can see how your opinion might be swayed. But I don't think that alone qualifies for an entire theory.

I see you guys saying we've been repeating ourselves, yet when I re-read the thread I see "Metagross comes in on anything except HP Fire and Pursuits", "Weavile can revenge-kill", "Since it doesn't have Fire Blast, steel-types wall it, and "Tyranitar has Pursuit! COUNTER!!". If what we've been spouting is theorymon, this is just RETARDED theorymon.
 
BLAZIKEN_57 said:
Actually I have somewhat (referring to maniaclyrasist) back before they were uber on the site I came from.

Anyways, I don't think the fact that Tyranitar can come in for a revenge-kill and Pursuit it signifies anything, as Metagross could come in on Deoxys-A and Pursuit it to death, but that didn't do a damn thing to its uber status. Latios 2HKOs with Grass Knot anyways, and HP Fighting just lols at anyone calling it a reliable counter.
I'm gonna mention here that a Careful TTar takes less than 50% from Specs Draco Meteor from Timid Latios, which is scary. Not gonna force anyone to use Careful Tar, though. Deoxys is very hard to switch into, and with the insane movepool, one that definitely beats the lati@s, makes its counters die. All but Spiritomb, who isn't very common. Metagross can be Fire Punched/HP Fired/Specs Thundered/or Sashcountered to death. On the other hand, Lati@s can't 2HKO TTar unboosted unless it uses Earthquake (or Specs Grass Knot/HP Fight), which TTar survives with ease and allows it to safely switch into a counter. On the Specs set, switch in Metagross or something and eat Latios for dinner. Oh and Blissey.

I'd just like to point out that I have used them in standards. Like I said, the site I came from didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that Lati@s were uber, and for the majority of my time there I saw Latias pop up every other game. And I can safely say that it has very few safe switch-ins. Cresselia has a blast with repeated Draco Meteors, same with Snorlax and Regice, plus with Hippo on your team, none of those has any good recovery. I'd say Blissey is the best 100% counter against Specs versions, but DUH, we already figured that one out.
Garchomp has no reliable switch ins too (more specifically, CBChomp with Sandstream support). At least Specs Lati@s can be walled by Bliss

Choice Scarf Weavile can revenge-kill Deoxys-A, Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Rayquaza, yet I don't see them dropping down to OU status. Also, I don't see great evidence of testing for the contrary, either. Plus you guys say that we haven't tested enough, well the only evidence of testing is one of Brawley's post, which was pretty much "Me and maniaclyrasist has a test Lati@s battle, we had a discussion and realized that if dies to Pursuit and we realized it's OK at best", which doesn't tell me a thing. Yes, you and Brawley had a few matches, and it failed one of you, so I can see how your opinion might be swayed. But I don't think that alone qualifies for an entire theory.
Well, if you rely too much on revenge killing, you won't get anywhere. Tar can switch into Lati@s, but Weavile dies in a single hit if he tries to switch in. And even if he does get a switch in, there are still stuff these things can do. Deoxys-A can Scarf or Countersash Weavile, Mewtwo will easily survive Night Slash and Aura Sphere, Darkrai will shrug off Brick Break and Dark Void Weavile to sleep. Oh and it can always switch out with Pursuit resistance. Rayquaza is the only thing revenge killed here, and it's power is absolutely insane. Plus, Ray might Extremespeed, which OHKOs Weavile after a Dragon Dance and Life orb I think.

I see you guys saying we've been repeating ourselves, yet when I re-read the thread I see "Metagross comes in on anything except HP Fire and Pursuits", "Weavile can revenge-kill", "Since it doesn't have Fire Blast, steel-types wall it, and "Tyranitar has Pursuit! COUNTER!!". If what we've been spouting is theorymon, this is just RETARDED theorymon.
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sanjay120 said:
HP Fight. Hey, it's what I'd run.
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I run Careful Tar, which absorbs HP Fight unless it has Specs/LO (Expert Belt won't cut it). Plus, using HP Fight means you don't have a weapon against Metagross. It sounds overspecialized when you think of it, but when Lati@s attempt to beat its counter, then its counter must adapt. HP Fight means Latios has 30 Speed IV as well, meaning Gengar can outspeed it, meaning that you won't even tie with it.

I also would like to point out that people grew smarter over the years/time/whatever, meaning that the metagame now is different than the metagame back then.
 
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