Metagame Max Berries: A Genetically Modified Metagame

[ToiriX]

Heatran @ Chople Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power

A set I've found to work really well on ladder. Melts anything that it takes by suprise and any reversal mon (resists acrobatics and I run it w quagsire for unaware/haze)

 

[GamerOGuy]

To the shock of nobody, Magearna has proven to be far too broken in this metagame as a setup sweeper. Shift Gear Calm Mind sets in combination with Kee Berry made it incredibly difficult to stop outside of Unaware Quagsire. As such, we have decided to quickban Magearna!

Thank god, I used Shift Gear CM Magearna on the ladder and...uh...the results were...

um...

Mixed.

It did not hesitate to kill anything, even Unaware Quagsire. The following calculation is after Kee Berry and 3 Shift Gears:

0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (320 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 406-478 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This thing was busted, and I'm happy it got banned. I never want to see this thing in this metagame ever again.

 

[Cuddly]

Salazzle (F) @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Incinerate
- Belch
- Endeavor

Salazzle is so very close to being an amazing Pokemon in this OM. It’s the 4th fastest Pokemon with Incinerate (excellent for beating the stat berries), has Endure and is also immune to Burn/Toxic, absorbs Toxic Spikes, has the incredibly stong Belch with STAB. However, it comes crashing down when just so happens that Salazzle’s coverage is pretty bad. It gets beat hard by Heatran, Tyranitar, and Quagsire. The best it can do with its coverage is Endeavor, which is just guaranteed death. Worse still is that Pursuit no longer exists, so Salazzle can’t be lure either.

I will say a few thing that I believe will be excellent in this meta.
Toxic Spikes:
Toxic Spikes are going to be highly valuable in this meta. With so many deadly Endure sweepers being at 1 HP, it prevents certain Pokemon from at all doing damage. It will also force Healing Berry abusers to eat them early
Sand/Hail:
Like with Toxic Spikes, Sand/Hail can outright prevent sweeps in this meta when Endure Sweepers are at 1 HP.
Ditto:
With Berries that can simply give you instant Max Stat boosts, and Substitute being banned, the only reliable Imposter Proof method is to use Unburden.
Berry Removers:
Bug Bite, Pluck, Incinerate, Knock Off, and Trick are good choices as well with how common berries will be.

 

[necrobones]

Ditto:
With Berries that can simply give you instant Max Stat boosts, and Substitute being banned, the only reliable Imposter Proof method is to use Unburden.

Certain Stored Power abusers, such as Sitrus + Recycle Jirachi, are self-improof. Additionally teams can be built to abuse Ditto's choice-lock as it's forced to run Choice Scarf to be reliable; one example could be using an Extreme Speed booster like Linoone or Zygarde-10%, then when the imposter takes it down, abusing the Extreme Speed lock to set up a Ghost- or Steel-type (such as Spectrier which can then be improofed by any Normal type, or the aforementioned Jirachi) to claim another kill. Still, Imposter is something that you need to actively keep in mind when building in a meta where +6 stat boosts are so common, and it'll very quickly run down players who aren't properly prepared.

 

[Cuddly]

Certain Stored Power abusers, such as Sitrus + Recycle Jirachi, are self-improof. Additionally teams can be built to abuse Ditto's choice-lock as it's forced to run Choice Scarf to be reliable; one example could be using an Extreme Speed booster like Linoone or Zygarde-10%, then when the imposter takes it down, abusing the Extreme Speed lock to set up a Ghost- or Steel-type (such as Spectrier which can then be improofed by any Normal type, or the aforementioned Jirachi) to claim another kill. Still, Imposter is something that you need to actively keep in mind when building in a meta where +6 stat boosts are so common, and it'll very quickly run down players who aren't properly prepared.

Thanks. That'll be useful.

Btw, does Mind Blown round up on the recoil damage?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1293878821-i8kn1ttyr8o140aumnsc0akafpqhrzspw
My Blacephalon has 247 HP, half of which is 123.5, which normally would be rounded down. Does it round up or do I need different EVs?

Set btw

Blacephalon @ Salac Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mind Blown
- Incinerate
- Shadow Ball
- Stored Power

 

[Lewi11]

Quickban Update: Magearna

To the shock of nobody, Magearna has proven to be far too broken in this metagame as a setup sweeper. Shift Gear Calm Mind sets in combination with Kee Berry made it incredibly difficult to stop outside of Unaware Quagsire. As such, we have decided to quickban Magearna! Tagging Kris to implement.

While this is the first of most likely a few bans to come, we are keeping an eye on quite a few things for now. Our watchlist as of right now below:

• Pluck / Bug Bite: Pluck and Bug Bite are very potent options to remove opponents Berries and eat them, with notable users such as Zapdos-Galar, Corviknight, Scizor, and Heatran. While the abusers are all strong in their own right, the moves themselves dissuade Pokemon from running Berries too much on some teams, so the moves are our primary focus for the time being.
• Unburden: Unburden sweepers such as Hawlucha, Hitmonlee, and Slurpuff are potentially too much for the metagame when combined with Liechi Berry. We'll be keeping an eye on these threats for now.
• Belly Drum: Belly Drum is another strong option that when paired with either priority or Salac Berry can sweep unprepared teams with ease. While Unaware or offensive pressure are able to stop Belly Drum, we're still looking into whether or not this move is healthy for the metagame.
• Endure: Endure is an odd case; on paper, it is a very powerful option that can proc Berries more easily that has a very wide distribution. Endure's weak point comes from a weakness to priority, and the fact that most Endure users are physical attackers, Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, and Rough Skin are all able to stop this option without much trouble. However, as time progresses we may end up seeing new and more powerful Endure users that may prove that Endure is too much, though specific abusers may be targetted as well.

These are our most immediate pieces on our watchlist, though as the meta develops we may look into specific Pokemon such as Spectrier, Melmetal, or others. That's all for now, hope everyone is enjoying the metagame so far!

I giggled at this! Only because I was actually saving replays to have to prove exactly why you've banned it! In this meta, the mon is so broken.
Here's some replays I managed to save:

Liepard puts in work and Magearna sweeps
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1293252032

Magearna sweeps again
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1293270772-62hokq7vry0925yxn96sy0kg15320d1pw

Magearna 1v1’s a Quagsire and Aegislash finishes off
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1293273482

Magearna manages to sweep again after some good plays from the opponent
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1293335935

Magearna does it again
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1293340310-lfonth3qculqn94u824jbaqtn03s7mbpw

Magearna literally just comes in and causes a forfeit after set-up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1293343248

Magearna comes in and causes a forfeit!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1292552314

Magearna does it again, Transform Mew was interesting
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1292557187

Magearna causes another forfeit after destroying Corviknight
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1292562975

Hopefully no one is, but to anyone wondering why it's banned, I think these replays pretty much cover it.

:)

 

[urkerab]

Btw, does Mind Blown round up on the recoil damage?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8maxberries-1293878821-i8kn1ttyr8o140aumnsc0akafpqhrzspw
My Blacephalon has 247 HP, half of which is 123.5, which normally would be rounded down. Does it round up or do I need different EVs?

Yes, both Mind Blown but also Steel Beam round up, so even with a berry, you'll only get three uses. This is unlike, say, Belly Drum, which rounds down.

 

[Excadrill Trainer]

U forgot the most meme-quality set:
ORAN BERRY ENDEAVOR BLISSEY
It always works well with Berry. Also here’s a set I made myself:
Inteleon @ Lansat Berry
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Snipe Shot
- Air Slash
- Haze
- Dark Pulse

 

[shnowshner]

Hello again, I've had some decent success playing this meta. It's pretty similar to base game except everyone is freaking out over +6 items and how to use or counter them, which means it's pretty easy to make a team that simply doesn't use Berries and watch as people waste turns doing nothing with Pluck or Bug Bite.

Here's a team I made to be as anti-bullshit offense as possible and it's worked very well in that role. Definitely has room for improvement and bulkier builds that aren't full of setup Pokemon tend to be a hard match-up, so I don't recommend you just import it into your teambuilder like I'm some god of Pokemon, but feel free to use it as inspiration if you're looking for a way to break out of the chaotic low ladder. Priority is super good in this meta to fight Endure spam so the team has like 4 users lmao

funny team

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Court Change
- Pyro Ball
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch
Did you know Cinderace is unbanned? It probably shouldn't be! This does the same thing it usually does but with a Court Change set and priority. CC is good since hazard spam and webs is everywhere while Sucker Punch lets Cinderace revenge kill pretty handily.


Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Superpower
Rillaboom is essential for this team else any Lele is going to be a nightmare. Glide chunks neutral targets and KOs tons of stuff after just a bit of chip damage. Beyond that it's standard two broken moves and Superpower to hit stuff like Ferro or Blissey.


Spectrier @ Focus Sash
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Disable
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
Did you know Spectrier is unbanned? It probably shouldn't be! No Substitute is bad for it but this has incredible utility. It's an extremely fast Haze user that destroys a lot of the one-time setup Pokemon running around, granted they don't have any Speed boosts or are faster. Disable helps as well. Shadow Ball kills most things and you can use Will-O-Wisp if you feel like missing twice and losing the game. Focus Sash rarely does anything let alone matter so I recommend you use Lefties or something.


Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
Chomp's role is to see if Rocks can be set up and/or attempt to run through teams with SD Scale Shot + EQ. Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet punishes Bug Bite and Pluck hard while also allow it to do something if sacked: good against contact Endure mons as well.


Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Taunt
More priority. Fake Out's high priority and flinch helps in revenge kills or stalling turns/wasting Endure attempts. You then Ice Shard to delete weakened opponents. Knock Off. Taunt is there to annoy even more setup Pokemon but I rarely use it so you could probably do something else with the slot.


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Coba Berry
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Jet
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
This is the only Berry user on the team, solely because I didn't know what else to put on it. Does nothing against Unnerve Corviknight but if they're only Flying-type attack is Pluck you're already at an advantage. SS is immensely useful against defense boosters especially after a few boosts, and Aqua Jet is yet another layer of Priority insurance for the team.

A lot of players have gone full-berry mode and pretty much lose to stuff like this. Berries are really good (especially the immunity ones, makes a lot of easy plays much more complicated) but sometimes all you need are more straightforward sets that get the job done and it certainly didn't hurt having two Pokemon which maybe should go pay a visit to their friend Magearna in the Banlist or smthn

 

[VoolPool]

https://pokepast.es/a52baab36bf372cc

Tspikes Offense? Really fun and easy to use team.



Time To Miss (Cinderace) @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn

Cinderace is amazing on this team as it's fast and powerful, and I mean POWERFUL. This things can 2hko physdef hippowdown with Hjk, not to mention it destroys quag on switch-in, which a lot of people seem to be running. Its on the team because most of its "Switch-Ins", get bodied by tspikes. Its only major weakness is missing imo, hence the name, i guess you could say rocks limits it, but I barely see anyone clicking them agianst this team, and when they do, it still manages to always get AT LEAST 1 kill.


j-mars (Jirachi) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Iron Defense
Works in tandem with spectrier and tspikes as those help it wear down its counters, enabling for an sweep. Pretty basic set that can easily overwhelm teams, only huge weakness is getting critted or knock offed, but tbh if I set up and have tspikes up, they usually just lose. (Unless they have drapion which is easily chipped by spect.) "And if they run blissey pex, easy zen butts for cinderace."


lando is gone (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 SpD
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Earthquake
- Gravity
- U-turn

Gravity is disgusting. Corvinknights come in only to die to an earthquake. If they are running that max def berry they are weird, but pex manhandles them(with haze). Sitrusberry just for a busrt of healing that can help in pivot, smack something, or remove hazards. I guess corvs can roost, but you can jst switch into race on one of them and melt them(literally). Also works well with tspikes as garvity steers latias or even gapdos from coming in know also gives cinderace 100% accuracy but he cant use hjk is something to note.


queen of thorns (Toxapex) (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Scald
- Haze
Oh boy, The tspiker. Gives spectrier a 130 bp, cinderace a easy breaking session, jirachi a sweep even when opps are using dark types, a magnezone easy recycle berries till something dies, posioning endure sweepers, all while using itself to haze and wall. Tspikes is strong on this team, really fricking strong.


Suspectier (Spectrier) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hex
- Disable
- Haze

130 bp STAB move with 145 spatk. Fast mon that can late game clean and revenge kill, and break mons bones like its nothing. Disable is for stored power sweepers like clef who threathen my team, and haze is for a last resort restart. Blissey is biggest counter but teamates manage to take care.


3 Magneteers(Magnezone) @ Oran Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 192 HP / 252 SpA / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Recycle
- Steel Beam

Originnaly this was rotom mow, but rotom only helped against certain teams and was usually dead weight, while this thing was hella constitent. Toxic for more toxic spam and its really just a standard set. speed evs let its outspeed 4 ev corv, because I know people who run that. Helps a lot againts offense and actually puts in work. Also a great breaker with tspikes.

I have only lost once out of 20 games with this version of the team iirc. Probably more games tho, I didn't keep track lol.

Threatlist:

Sucks' agsainst the bullet seed variant, you could move sucker punch over u turn if you want a way to beat. Its hard to beat if u let it set up without getting poisined. only swepeed me once however.

Magic Guard variants are annoying but you can beat with jirachi or magnezone.


Your best bet is setting up on it with jirachi, or magnezone poisoning.

might add more if i see fit.

 

[Pika did 9/11]

Just reached rank 1 with my alt socialist monke with this team! Check it out! ( I apologize in advance for grammatical errors! English is not my main language)

Clefable @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Knock Off
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast

The majority of teams, in this meta, needs an unaware Pokemon, either Quagsire or Clef. I chose Clefable as it fit my team really well other than the fact that it has knock off, which is already useful in normal OU and more so in this meta. Another reason that makes Clefable more viable than Quag is the enormous amount of G-Zapdos in this meta. Clefable can hold its own against every G-Zapdos set but has to play carefully against CB. I noticed, funnily enough, that a lot of player like to spam Pluck, which really does nothing against this Clefable set as its rocking the Boots to prevent hazard damage. The rest of the set explains itself, its just a standart Unaware pink wall that stops the majority of salac and liechi berry users as well as other CM Clefable and CM users. The only hard machtups it has are stored power users like Latias, occasionally some clefable and rarely Tapu Lele, that can bypass unaware with the sheer power of Stored Power. Weavile is another scary Matchup as you need Clefable with at least 80% health always if you don't want to get in trouble, and Clefable doesn't like to lose its Boots.

Landorus-Therian @ Oran Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Smack Down
- Stealth Rock

Whats better than Landorus-Therian? Landorus-Therian but with a free 100% recovery. SD Landorus with Oran Berry is quite a good stealth rocker in the Max Berries Meta. Intimidate plus a good typing and the option of catchig flying types offguard with Smack Down (which i chose instead of Stone Edge because its more reliable) Really helped me win games. You have to scout before trying to keep rocks up against Corvinight as it could have Kee Berry, but once you either get rid of the Kee Berry or of the pokemon itself ( Blacephalon really helps in this case) Landorus will consistently keep up rocks while being a potent Offensive option as both Clefable and Quagsire really dont like switching in to a Max Attack EQ with rocks up. It synergizes well with Clefable since it helps dealing with the omnipresent Scizor ( getting Bug Bited is not good tho) in conjuction with Rotom while being immune to the electric attacks of Magnezone, another really common pokemon, which helps Rotom Wash.

Rotom-Wash @ Oran Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog

Same as Landorus, Rotom-Wash is already pretty good on its own but the oran berry really helps its longevity. Its a Good check to Scizor, Magnezone (with the help of a ground type), Heatran, Inteleon and so on. Will-O-Wisp is a risk free ultra spammable status move, really useful if you don't want to active berries of any sort, and provides passive damage against a lot of bulky annoying pokemon such as Quagsire which is quite a threat to this team. Volt Switch is really nice as it provides free momentum and lets Blacephalon come in for free and wreck havoc. Overall a relaliable Defogger and a solid piece of this team.

Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Incinerate
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Trick

This thing is a monster. There are zero good switch-ins for this specs set in the current meta, and the sheer power of its ghost and fire stab plus the utility of trick ( which saved me many times from being sweeped) are enough by themselves to win some games the tunr it comes out. I have nothing else to add really. I put incinerate there just if you really need to burn a berry but in 45 games I only used it once.

Scizor @ Occa Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Atk / 16 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bug Bite
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance

One of the most prominent pokemon in this meta and for a good reason. Strong Priority, Bug Bite, Recovery, Good Typing, Setup options and a One time immunity to fire make this pokemon a must for a lot of teams. My check to fairy and psichic types which cannot use their fire coverage anymore against it. Bullet punch is super useful to revenge kill all the endure users and Bug Bite is one of the best moves in this meta; Scizors gets it with stab and technician to boot. Sword dance is really useful to beat more defensive Scizors and helps to deal with Kee Berry Blissey and roos ensures Scizor stays healthy through the game. I'm kinda curios to see what are the usage stats of this Pokemon.

Haxorus @ Choice Band
Ability: Unnerve
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Outrage
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake

This was the most fun Pokemon that I've used in a while. Absolute powerhouse. Unnerve ensures it can spam Outrage without worrying about random Kee Berry, and the power of this thing is just stunning. The presence of fat pokemon like Blissey and Quag in many games makes Haxorus really shine. Once it gets in after fairy types are dealt with and the steels are slightly chipped, this pokemon will kill whatever stands in his tracks. Max defense Corv takes 30% from CB outrage and the Kee Berry sets that don't run any defense take up to 40% percent on the switch. With Stealth rocks this basically means that your oppponent has to play carefully to not lose at least one pokemon to this beast. Poison Jab and EQ are pretty good coverage, with a good predict Haxorus can get rid of its fairy checks, although, trust me, you are going to click Outrage 90% of the times. Lemme just show:

252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 213-251 (62 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 583-687 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course this power comes with its problems. It is quite frail, but the main issue is its speed. Being 6 points slower than 100 base speed really hurts it, as Galarian Zapdos can revenge kill it quite easily; also it requires some team support as bringing it in is quite hard due to its frailty.

https://pokepast.es/3dc36f79d7d6ef68 This is the Pokepaste!

 

[harmony96369]

all this talk about clef and quag leaves something that really deserves it unheard of: pyukumuku. this thing is a BEAST, especially in low ladder. with unaware, it ignores all boosts (minus stored power), and checks all reversal sweepers with physical defence investment and bold/impish. with block, anything that dosent switch (which they probably wont with all the boosts going to waste) is dead. toxic is dangerous to 70% of sweepers. however, poisons and steels. say hello to soak! last move is either recover with lefties or recycle with sitrus/mago berry. dont sleep on muku. it has sone troll potential ;)

 

[Pika did 9/11]

I feel like Pyukumuku is good, but a little too passive. The fact that substitue is banned helps it as its not so easy to setup on it anymore but status of any kind + a choiced attacker can break it. There is also the fact that is soaks up all momentum without bringing much to the table. Still, its a pretty good mon if your opponent lacks hard hitters that can ko it or status moves.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

I tried using Petaya Berry Dedenne, but it's baaad. I've never been able to get it to 25% health because it always either gets its item stolen, or 2HKO'd.

 

[Lewi11]

I tried using Petaya Berry Dedenne, but it's baaad. I've never been able to get it to 25% health because it always either gets its item stolen, or 2HKO'd.

I don't think Dedenne is strong enough to go up against the higher tiered users in the meta, but I love the creativity! The only answers to your issue are really Endure or sacrifice Cheek Pouch for Sturdy :)

 

[Lewi11]

So here's some of my thoughts on the meta currently:

Snorlax: This mon is up there with Scizor, Corviknight and Kartana with being the mons that I encounter the most so far and it's for good reason. Belly Drum + Salac Berry is very potent if you can get it off. Good coverage and a maximised stat of 636 with full investment Adamant Nature. I love the concept, but for me I wanted to say how it's a prime example of what I think needs adjusting in the meta: there are simply too many counters to the use of berries (see below).

Unburden: In regards to it being broken, I want to put my say in. It's not ban-worthy at all. There are only a select few viable mons with the ability and have proven to be no trouble in the meta for me so far. Scarfed mons, priority, and just plain bulk can handle all of them especially with a phasing move too. The mons that have access to unburden don't have an awful lot of offensive presence without set up and it only takes a knock off to ruin the mon's strat almost completely.

Endure: I saw somewhere that it was thought that this method was potentially too overpowered, but for me, it has to be kept. It's one of the ONLY ways to guarantee a berry activating and still, there are loads of ways to beat it. Because of this, I think it should remain in the meta.

Not using Berries: I've been seeing more teams recently that benefit a lot from not using berries at all. There are the occasional mons that just ruin teams that focus too much on berries - it's almost a hindrance to your team to use berries at all at this point, which for me takes away from the essence of the meta.

Counters: So this is my main issue with the meta currently. Now whilst I think that there are too many counters to the use of berries, I also don't think we should get rid of them all - that'll bring up a whole new problem. What I do think is that maybe we should look into the banning of potentially one of the counters because for me, I don't find as much enjoyment when playing an OM if it's so similar to just playing OU as not having a berry is more desirable than having one - which seems to defeat the purpose of the meta?

Here are some counters (there are others, but these are the most common):

Knock Off: The most reliable and potent method of berry removal - a move that is learnt by many mons, has great power and can hit every mon no matter what (except Sticky Hold, but it still does damage).

Trick/Switcheroo: I don't see this too regularly atm, but from my experience, a CS Latios destroys sets in this meta.

Weather: (for Endure): Haven't seen it being utilised much, but it's a great strat for eliminating the only real way of guaranteeing to activate a berry, Endure.

Corrosive Gas: (not usually used): I've seen this being used ONCE so far, but that's probably because it's not a move that is learnt by a lot of mons (and let's be honest, most of the mons that learn it also learn Knock Off).

Unaware: Doesn't really stop berries, but is extremely successful in stopping stat boosting in its tracks.

Unnerve: One of my favourite ways of stopping berries, and teamed up with Pluck or Bug Bite? That's some rude gameplay. But it works well.

Bug Bite / Thief / Incinerate / Pluck: Seeing these moves a lot more often then at the start of the week, but they are finally being used effectively! But unfortunately, these moves are next to pointless if no one is running any berries...

So looking at these main counters, I personally think we should ban one. Just one, and I think that'll allow us all to utilise the purpose of the meta even more. By removing one counter, we remove a way of preventing berries activating which in turn makes berries more desirable than not using one at all.

I thought the best one to remove could be Unnerve as it wouldn't change the meta too much considering how many mons have access to the ability. But then I thought (and please bare with me on this), what if we banned Knock Off?
Don't get me wrong, it would be an ENORMOUS change for the game, but without Knock Off, there are a lot less mons that scare berry users. And it makes team-building even more creative with trying to find new mons that utilise the remaining counters to berries (like the four main moves and Trick/Switcheroo) as well as utilising the effects of berries with less fear.

These are just my thoughts, if you have any ideas are any input into what I've said, I'd love to hear it! Do you agree / disagree with there being too many counters? Are there other ways of using berries more consistently that I may not know about? Please let me know!

:)

 

[Nitro Indigo]

I don't think Dedenne is strong enough to go up against the higher tiered users in the meta, but I love the creativity! The only answers to your issue are really Endure or sacrifice Cheek Pouch for Sturdy :)

Uh, Togedemaru has Sturdy, not Dedenne.

 

[harmony96369]

So here's some of my thoughts on the meta currently:

Snorlax: This mon is up there with Scizor, Corviknight and Kartana with being the mons that I encounter the most so far and it's for good reason. Belly Drum + Salac Berry is very potent if you can get it off. Good coverage and a maximised stat of 636 with full investment Adamant Nature. I love the concept, but for me I wanted to say how it's a prime example of what I think needs adjusting in the meta: there are simply too many counters to the use of berries (see below).

Unburden: In regards to it being broken, I want to put my say in. It's not ban-worthy at all. There are only a select few viable mons with the ability and have proven to be no trouble in the meta for me so far. Scarfed mons, priority, and just plain bulk can handle all of them especially with a phasing move too. The mons that have access to unburden don't have an awful lot of offensive presence without set up and it only takes a knock off to ruin the mon's strat almost completely.

Endure: I saw somewhere that it was thought that this method was potentially too overpowered, but for me, it has to be kept. It's one of the ONLY ways to guarantee a berry activating and still, there are loads of ways to beat it. Because of this, I think it should remain in the meta.

Not using Berries: I've been seeing more teams recently that benefit a lot from not using berries at all. There are the occasional mons that just ruin teams that focus too much on berries - it's almost a hindrance to your team to use berries at all at this point, which for me takes away from the essence of the meta.

Counters: So this is my main issue with the meta currently. Now whilst I think that there are too many counters to the use of berries, I also don't think we should get rid of them all - that'll bring up a whole new problem. What I do think is that maybe we should look into the banning of potentially one of the counters because for me, I don't find as much enjoyment when playing an OM if it's so similar to just playing OU as not having a berry is more desirable than having one - which seems to defeat the purpose of the meta?

Here are some counters (there are others, but these are the most common):

Knock Off: The most reliable and potent method of berry removal - a move that is learnt by many mons, has great power and can hit every mon no matter what (except Sticky Hold, but it still does damage).

Trick/Switcheroo: I don't see this too regularly atm, but from my experience, a CS Latios destroys sets in this meta.

Weather: (for Endure): Haven't seen it being utilised much, but it's a great strat for eliminating the only real way of guaranteeing to activate a berry, Endure.

Corrosive Gas: (not usually used): I've seen this being used ONCE so far, but that's probably because it's not a move that is learnt by a lot of mons (and let's be honest, most of the mons that learn it also learn Knock Off).

Unaware: Doesn't really stop berries, but is extremely successful in stopping stat boosting in its tracks.

Unnerve: One of my favourite ways of stopping berries, and teamed up with Pluck or Bug Bite? That's some rude gameplay. But it works well.

Bug Bite / Thief / Incinerate / Pluck: Seeing these moves a lot more often then at the start of the week, but they are finally being used effectively! But unfortunately, these moves are next to pointless if no one is running any berries...

So looking at these main counters, I personally think we should ban one. Just one, and I think that'll allow us all to utilise the purpose of the meta even more. By removing one counter, we remove a way of preventing berries activating which in turn makes berries more desirable than not using one at all.

I thought the best one to remove could be Unnerve as it wouldn't change the meta too much considering how many mons have access to the ability. But then I thought (and please bare with me on this), what if we banned Knock Off?
Don't get me wrong, it would be an ENORMOUS change for the game, but without Knock Off, there are a lot less mons that scare berry users. And it makes team-building even more creative with trying to find new mons that utilise the remaining counters to berries (like the four main moves and Trick/Switcheroo) as well as utilising the effects of berries with less fear.

These are just my thoughts, if you have any ideas are any input into what I've said, I'd love to hear it! Do you agree / disagree with there being too many counters? Are there other ways of using berries more consistently that I may not know about? Please let me know!

:)

i hate knock off so much. i agree

 

[necrobones]

Knock Off: The most reliable and potent method of berry removal - a move that is learnt by many mons, has great power and can hit every mon no matter what (except Sticky Hold, but it still does damage).

Trick/Switcheroo: I don't see this too regularly atm, but from my experience, a CS Latios destroys sets in this meta.

Weather: (for Endure): Haven't seen it being utilised much, but it's a great strat for eliminating the only real way of guaranteeing to activate a berry, Endure.

Corrosive Gas: (not usually used): I've seen this being used ONCE so far, but that's probably because it's not a move that is learnt by a lot of mons (and let's be honest, most of the mons that learn it also learn Knock Off).

Unaware: Doesn't really stop berries, but is extremely successful in stopping stat boosting in its tracks.

Unnerve: One of my favourite ways of stopping berries, and teamed up with Pluck or Bug Bite? That's some rude gameplay. But it works well.

Bug Bite / Thief / Incinerate / Pluck: Seeing these moves a lot more often then at the start of the week, but they are finally being used effectively! But unfortunately, these moves are next to pointless if no one is running any berries...

Out of these, I think I'd be happiest seeing Unnerve go - it's not only imo the most impactful of these counters (though Pluck/Bug Bite and Knock Off are close seconds), but also the one that would have the least collateral damage if it were removed: Galvantula is really the only mon I can think of that seriously suffers from its loss (hot take: Ribombee was always better), with Corviknight still being a very effective wincon with Maranga Berry, Haxorus still having access to Mold Breaker to bust Unaware users, Aerodactyl still being one of the best suicide leads thanks to it also having Incinerate, and Tyranitar still being the best sand setter in a meta where Spectrier is free. Every other Unnerve user is either awful (Persian, Calyrex, Vespiquen) or prefers its other abilities regardless (Bewear).

If not Unnerve, then the next thing to consider would be Bug Bite/Pluck/Incinerate (Thief, Trick/Switcheroo and Pickpocket/Magician require being itemless or giving up your item, and thus I wouldn't group them in) and potentially Magic Room (Klefki gets it with Prankster and thus it has very little counterplay apart from just not using berries).

I'll admit - all the discussion about how strong anti-berry and berryless teams are and my little experience with it on the ladder has turned me off from playing for the most part, and I think something has to be done about this. It's not that these teams are really broken, it's just that there's little reason to use the main mechanic of the metagame, as you have to go quite far out of your way to deal with Unaware, Unnerve, Bug Bite and friends, Klefki, Sand and Knock Off all on the same team.

 

[Lewi11]

Out of these, I think I'd be happiest seeing Unnerve go - it's not only imo the most impactful of these counters (though Pluck/Bug Bite and Knock Off are close seconds), but also the one that would have the least collateral damage if it were removed: Galvantula is really the only mon I can think of that seriously suffers from its loss (hot take: Ribombee was always better), with Corviknight still being a very effective wincon with Maranga Berry, Haxorus still having access to Mold Breaker to bust Unaware users, Aerodactyl still being one of the best suicide leads thanks to it also having Incinerate, and Tyranitar still being the best sand setter in a meta where Spectrier is free. Every other Unnerve user is either awful (Persian, Calyrex, Vespiquen) or prefers its other abilities regardless (Bewear).

If not Unnerve, then the next thing to consider would be Bug Bite/Pluck/Incinerate (Thief, Trick/Switcheroo and Pickpocket/Magician require being itemless or giving up your item, and thus I wouldn't group them in) and potentially Magic Room (Klefki gets it with Prankster and thus it has very little counterplay apart from just not using berries).

I'll admit - all the discussion about how strong anti-berry and berryless teams are and my little experience with it on the ladder has turned me off from playing for the most part, and I think something has to be done about this. It's not that these teams are really broken, it's just that there's little reason to use the main mechanic of the metagame, as you have to go quite far out of your way to deal with Unaware, Unnerve, Bug Bite and friends, Klefki, Sand and Knock Off all on the same team.

While Unnerve does counter the use of berries with the least effort, Knock Off can be learnt by a lot of great mons which is why for me, Knock Off is the most impactful on the meta as a whole. And that's why it looks like the best counter to be banned.

I don't want to see a ban on those moves as they open up a lot of options that are more niche and less used. And Magic Room is a great shout, I completely forgot its priority became 0 from Gen 6. That's very potent on Klefki, great shout.

I understand where you are coming from as it does seem to defeat the purpose of the metagame with having so many counters to it. And I am finding more and more teams utilising only one berry on their entire 6-mon team.

I hope something is changed to allow the meta to shine more because the concept of this meta is great - clearly a lot of people thought so too considering how easy it won during the voting stage.


Edit: Also, Ditto makes 80% of berries a joke.

 

[shnowshner]

I'd be cautious about banning anything like Knock Off/Trick/Unnerve or anything which messes with Berries so quickly. Right now I feel people are still exploring this meta seeing as it's the newest OM so you have a lot of Berry-centric teams fighting with anti-Berry teams, both of which can struggle with the Berryless "OU goodstuff + Cinderace and Spectrier" teams that exploit such hyperfixation. What's cool about this meta is how much Berries open up and add to how you play, since for the most part many of these see extremely limited use in standard, without being a blanket "everything does this" kind of meta like STABmons or AAA. It's unique in that regard since this is basically OU but with a couple new powerful items you need to consider. Something like Shuca Heatran is vastly different from Focus Sash since you can't just break it with Rocks and when tanking an EQ Heatran will be left at whatever HP it had before instead of being brought down to min. These kinds of interactions are constantly in the back of my mind when playing and I think the strongest teams are able to find the best combination of Pokemon which benefit from the strength of Berries (both users and anti-users) and those which are generally strong additions to teams. Pika did 9/11's ladder-topping team is a good example IMO, and the results speak for themselves.

 

[Lewi11]

I'd be cautious about banning anything like Knock Off/Trick/Unnerve or anything which messes with Berries so quickly. Right now I feel people are still exploring this meta seeing as it's the newest OM so you have a lot of Berry-centric teams fighting with anti-Berry teams, both of which can struggle with the Berryless "OU goodstuff + Cinderace and Spectrier" teams that exploit such hyperfixation. What's cool about this meta is how much Berries open up and add to how you play, since for the most part many of these see extremely limited use in standard, without being a blanket "everything does this" kind of meta like STABmons or AAA. It's unique in that regard since this is basically OU but with a couple new powerful items you need to consider. Something like Shuca Heatran is vastly different from Focus Sash since you can't just break it with Rocks and when tanking an EQ Heatran will be left at whatever HP it had before instead of being brought down to min. These kinds of interactions are constantly in the back of my mind when playing and I think the strongest teams are able to find the best combination of Pokemon which benefit from the strength of Berries (both users and anti-users) and those which are generally strong additions to teams. Pika did 9/11's ladder-topping team is a good example IMO, and the results speak for themselves.

I see exactly what you're saying and agree to a certain extent, especially that we potentially need a little longer before banning anything. But to me, you basically just described OU with a few new items at hand to use and that isn't enough of a difference for me to enjoy a new interesting metagame, especially when this meta could have so much more potential without so many counters. All I'm saying is that I'd rather see teams that utilise 3 or 4 or even 5 berries then what we have now which is the use of no more than 2.

 

[Kingofthesun]

Ok, let's quickly touch on 2 things, both of which are prevalent in the team I used solo to reach this rank

This is not ok

1. The existance of 2 pokemon on the team: Spectrier and Cinderace. Why in god's name are these two legal, others have already posted about these 2 and both of them even get endure, though I haven't seen anyone use them because their traditional sets are so much better.

2. The reason being, there are WAY too many ways to neuter berries. We've all seen the pluck/bug bite/incinerate/thief/etc. and I don't have a problem with those because they require one to think about berries in the meta. Knock off on the other hand, is a huge problem. the Toxapex on my team has solo'd entire teams with the combination of haze and knock off (on that note, haze is another problem that completely shuts down certain berries).

I truly do not mean to slander this meta, I think it has a great amount of potential to be fun and unique, but I think that, at least as it stands right now, it is fundamentally flawed. There is almost no reason to run a berry over a traditional item save for a handful of specific pokemon, most notably Snorlax, Heatran, Scizor and Trevenant/Exeggutor(-alola) with an honorable mention to *insert bulky setup sweeper here* the last of which loses to every form of berry counterplay in the game. Berries in this meta do not feel like a significant enough upgrade, nor consistent enough to warrant using over a normal item. The immediate power of choice band/specs outweighs the specific, and easily counterable requirements for Liechi and Petaya berries respectively, and even when they do activate, it's not an instant win, there is still the prospect of Unaware, faster haze, or just a faster pokemon KOing in return with idk, a choice scarf or something. Items that are more useful, more consistently, in more scenarios, or are more rewarding for the scenario that they are used in (in the team I used, using shed shell on corv against a magnezone so that corv can consistently counter other berry users more often).

The solution to this problem is to create an environment where berries are as good, or better than traditional items in more scenarios. I propose that either we ban AT LEAST knock off and preferably berry-removing moves such as pluck/bug bite/incinerate/etc. or, and this is a bit extreme, we buff berries on a code level. I don't know if this is even allowed after the whole Shared Power fiasco of gen 7 where abilities were coded to be team-wide or solo. But in line with maximizing berry effects, we could maximize their requirements to proc twice as early or strait up when at less 100% hp. That way, berries become infinitely more threatening and force both players to think about which pokemon could be running what. creating scenarios like "That Weavile could just get hit by my rocky helmet and get +6 attack" or "maybe I shouldn't defog these rocks so my Snorlax just comes in at +6 speed, their team is already weakened I could just sweep" as a few examples. Once again, this will probably get shot down immediately because of the notion of changing code halfway through being OMOTM, but it's food for thought.

TL;DR: Berries are unfortunately not worth using over traditional items due to how limiting they are in usage and how varied their counterplay is, if we want this meta to progress further, we will need to give berries an opportunity cost equivalent or greater than traditional items.

 

[in the hills]

Quickban Update #2: Spectrier, Knock Off, Bug Bite, and Pluck

Following our last watchlist post and other posts in this thread/community opinions, the council has decided to ban Spectrier, Knock Off, Bug Bite, and Pluck from Max Berries. While this will be a big change to the common strategies that are currently being ran on the ladder, we are hoping this will stimulate a more healthy metagame. While Incinerate is another berry removing move, it was decided to not be metagame defining as the other options, nor a strong enough option to warrant a ban. As this metagame shift will be rather large, we do not have an exact watchlist for future bans, but we will surely keep a close eye out and keep you all updated! Thanks!

Tagging Kris to implement.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

While playing Alpha Sapphire yesterday, I discovered that Sticky Hold prevents Incinerate from destroying berries. Is this still the case in Gen 8?