Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I would hardly call a natural synergy an "insane amount of team support". No team will really run all these things together to keep Zama-C healthy, and nothing wrong with using two pokemon that complement each other in some way. As I said, Rillaboom and/or Tapu Bulu can provide Grassy Terrain for Zama-C which are really 2 good Pokemon by themselves, and the properties of Grassy Terrain are generally welcomed in many teams. There are a lot of Pokemon who benefit from Grassy Terrain and this won't be exclusive to Zama-C. Some notable weaknesses of those Pokemon are easily covered up by Zama-C while Tapu Bulu defensively covers up Zama-C's weaknesses as well while Rillaboom provides momentum with U-turn. Future Sight support is not any different, it won't be exclusive to Zama-C as many other Pokemon actually use it to apply automatic offensive presence against the very same defensive Pokemon that Zama-C struggles against. Moreover, there is some form of a defensive synergy provided by the Pokemon who use it, both Slowbro and Slowking can cover up Zama-C's Fighting and Fire weakness while Zama-C can take hits from Dark-types.
Zama-C doesn't have to provide utility/support for its team, as far as I am concerned it still is a Pokemon with decent offensive typing, a ridiculous bulk on both sides, and high offensive stats by OU standards in 130/128.

Anyway, when we don't have anything else that runs crazy in the tier right now, it seems like the perfect time to consider a test maybe because the discussions have been going for too long now.
It's synergy that's more closely related to Lucha+Terrain Setters. Like, Zama can't be as effective with any other grass type and has more to do with the fact that the specific grass types you mentioned run Grassy terrain.

You mentioned support in the form of sponging Knock off but even then, it can't even reliably do that without Defog support
 
Last edited:

Abhi

Professional Zoomer
is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hey there :afrostar:

Zamazenta-C is a pretty hot topic right now and I just want to contribute to the discussion and get my opinion out there. I'm going to be trying to weigh out the possible pros and cons of it being unbanned, and I may not be able to cover all of them but I'll try my best.

Pros of unbanning :Zamazenta-Crowned:
  • It's an incredible Knock Off absorber. With the release of Sword&Shield a lot of pokemon got Knock Off; a move that can remove the opposing pokemons item which can often be important to the Pokemon and how it functions. With the removal of Z-crystals and Mega Stones this move was buffed further always guaranteeing the removal of an item. Zamazenta-C is probably the best Knock Off absorber we'll see this gen, with incredible defenses and a non-removable item, it can switch into opposing Knock Offs for days and can also retaliate due to it's good offenses.
  • It can help with common threats. Zamazenta-C's sky high defenses help it check a large number of threats like Rillaboom, Bisharp, Scizor and Weavile while also threatening a OHKO on them. Although it cant do so consistently due to its lack of any sort of recovery. It can however utilise team support like Perish said and be paired with Grassy Terrain and Wish support, or use Rest with Aromatherapy/Heal Bell support.
  • It can help make the metagame more interesting. The SSOU metagame is pretty balanced and very diverse in my opinion, which is a job well done for the OU council, but this also gives us an opportunity to retest some pokemon and have suspect tests for possible additions to the metagame, like Finch said. If Zamazenta-C were to be unbanned it would bring a new aspect to the metagame and possibly even make the tier more diverse, and even if it were to be broken or somehow overwhelming it would just remain Ubers.
Cons of unbanning :Zamazenta-Crowned:
  • It's incredibly bulky and can be hard to break through. Zamazenta-C has incredible bulk; 92/145/145 is nothing to scoff at, its bulkier than Toxapex. Due to this and its ability being Dauntless Shield which grants it +1 defense on switching in, it can be very hard to break through even a Landorus-Therian can struggle to reliably 2HKO it with enough defence investment. However, due to its lack of any form of recovery this can be worked around, but it can be paired with Wish passers and Grassy Terrain like I said previously. It's good Defensive typing makes this worse.
  • It is fast and strong. Zamazenta-C boasts a very good Attack stat of 130 along with a speed of 128 which is faster than Tornadus-T and stronger than Rillaboom. However, its lack of set up moves and inability to use a Item can hold it back, although in most cases a simple Howl should be enough. It also boasts great coverage in Crunch, Fire Fang, Ice Fang, Psychic Fangs and Wild Charge allowing it to hit a large amount of common defensive walls super effectively. It also gets a STAB Close Combat which supported by its coverage can be hard to switch into, especially if paired with Future Sight.
So, with that being said, should Zamazenta-C be suspect tested? In my honest opinion, Yes. The metagame is very stable right now and it's probably in the best condition to introduce something new and see how the metagame reacts. Theorymoning can only go so far, and we cant predict exactly how a pokemon will behave in a metagame without it being tested in said metagame, a good example of this would be how nobody expected Assault Vest Slowking-Galar to be any good but it became one of the better special walls in the meta (although it has dropped off recently), or how Blaziken dropped to UU.

Well, that's all I have to say for now. Bye! :blobwizard:
 
Last edited:
I'm going to echo DeltaInsurgent's thoughts on a Zam-H suspect in addition to the Zam-C suspect. I definitely think it's a "close enough" situation to being worth a shot for a suspect test if the opportunity arises. People are definitely overrating it's overall attacking power, IMO. 130 attack is as much as Urshifu, but what made Urshifu broken was having a move as spammable as Wicked Blow. As DeltaInsurgent says, Close Combat as a move is very commonly resisted, and with its coverage being weak across the board, Choice Band sets seem fairly unappealing; this leaves it with either a bulk-boosting item (in which case why are you running this over Zam-C), or a Life Orb (or expert belt if you're feeling spicy). With LO Adamant - which speed ties with Timid Torn-T - it manages to just edge its way into 2hkoing many of its more common switchins with coverage - but it ultimately can't do enough to Slowbro and Pex to discourage them from just regening out. Even then, there are still hard walls that aren't too hard to fit; Zapdos sits on it to no end and presses hurricane, Tapu fini dodges a 2hko from everything except Wild Charge (which on a life orb pokemon seems like a risky move to run) and draining kisses in return, and Moltres could fairly reasonably come back from the grave to check it too. Defensive Lando takes almost nothing and threatens it out with toxic, and Hippo and Tangrowth only have to fear double CCs if they're not running lefties.

Obviously, being as fast as it is, being poor at breaking through most defensive cores is missing the point - the real issue is that its combination of speed, bulk and power could make it very difficult for offensive teams to deal with. It's worth noting, however, that some of the other common fast pokemon of the meta don't match up too badly against it. Tapu Koko revenge kills it with surprising safety, being able to avoid 2hkos much of the time from Timid and outspeeding and 2HKOing Adamant; Torn-T also dodges any 2hkos from Adamant, and deals at least 70% if its Hurricane hits (and can regen out if it doesn't). There are a few setup sweepers that can deal with it even after some chip; Dragonite with some bulk investment at +1 never takes more than 50% and 2hkos with Dual Wingbeat, and a +2 Adamant Rillaboom's Grassy Glide will put it in LO range or KO it outright.

Ultimately, this thing isn't the devastating breaker people act like it would be; most defensive teams would easily be able to fit in switchins without struggling too hard and simply let CC drops + Life Orb do most of the work, and its ability to outpredict is somewhat limited by its weak coverage compared to a pokemon like Nidoking. What really will matter here is its matchup against offence, and whether or not it overly restricts sweeping. Really, this is practically the same question as with Zam-C, and so I don't see why a Zam-H suspect is off the table (if time allows it).

(also it feels really weird to allow the powered up form and not the base form but that doesn't actually matter)
 
All the points you mentioned basically points to the fact that it requires an insane amount of team support while offering little support in return.
I've seen some interesting discussion surrounding Zama-C but this is just simply false. First of all, running it with some subset of Blissey, Clefable, Slowking, Slowbro and/or Glowking is not "an insane amount of team support". These are some of the best Pokémon in the tier and nearly every bulky offense team has 1 if not 2-3 of them. So let's rephrase that to "a perfectly reasonable amount of team support that is already present on any team Zama-C would be added to". Second, saying it offers no support in return is beyond absurd. With its bulk and speed together it checks nearly the entire offensive metagame. It's an easy pivot into Knock Off, Toxic or Trick. And it's an excellent late game cleaner if you've managed to eliminate your opponent's Scarfer. It's got a number of easy switch in opportunities off which to fire off very powerful attacks. It's not as if it's bad for the Zama-C user if it gets chipped down in the process of forcing the opponent to sacrifice 2 of their Pokémon.
 
If we are going to also be running a Zama-H suspect too, I believe it should be done separately. CB/LO Zama-H is probably going to be one of the most reliable ways to break through Zama-C (remember that with Urshifu gone we no longer have any top-tier fighting types, and Lucha, Watershifu, and Gapdos all only fit on a certain type of team). Zama-H's influence could affect Zama-C's viability hugely, as Zama-H would be a hugely slappable offensive tool to *OHKO* uninvested Zama-C (if banded). Zama-C could also affect Zama-H, as if Z-C is spammed on the ladder it would just be another victim to Z-H. It's also interesting to note that Z-H and Z-C cannot be used on the same team.

I'm not sure if the Dauntless Shield calculator bug has been fixed yet, but here is a calc on a Steelix that has been EV'd to have 0hp 0def Zama-C's stats:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 136 HP / 212 Def Steelix: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Calcs against a Terrakion EV'd (and type changed) to mimic Zama-H:
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. +1 8 HP / 204 Def Terrakion: 127-151 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. +1 8 HP / 204 Def Terrakion: 106-126 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
 
The discussion of Zama-C is really a hot topic and as a room staff, I deal with this more than I should and gathering feedback from a quite large sample size helped me to develop my own point of view on Zama-C, which differs from some of the arguments here. I will only talk about some of the factors that people bring as downsides. Before I start, a big disclaimer that these are just my own speculations and I am in favor of testing the thing in tier to find out how the metagame will adapt instead of theorymonning about it here.

1- Lack of reliable recovery.

It is true that Zama-C is not capable of holding an item so Leftovers is not an option, but this doesn't mean people who team build using Zama-C won't use other recovery options in their teams. Rillaboom is super hot in the meta as of now, Tapu Bulu is on the rise and the two can actually make decent partners as they do form some sort of synergy (albeit stacking fire weakness), and Grassy Terrain can provide the necessary recovery for Zama-C while also lowering Earthquake damage. Another option is to Wish, teammates like Blissey and Clefable can definitively opt Wish back to keep Zama-C healthy with the help of Teleport, making it incredibly difficult to wear down on some builds with its massive bulk.

2- It cannot hold any other item.

This has two positive merits I believe, you now get an option to punish Trick with the help of scouting from Protect (despite the fact that it got extremely rare these days with gimmick items like Sticky Barb) and you get a proper switch to Knock Off from foes like Toxapex and Clefable doing negative damage. The strongest Knock Off in the tier hits about 20% (Life Orb Kartana) so this allows you to preserve crucial items on Pokemon who don't appreciate losing their items.

3- It cannot break past some of the common defensive Pokemon.

Two words, Future Sight. Future Sight is bullshit and is an extremely important asset for Zama-C as it helps Zama-C get past some of the stuff it struggles against, most notably against Buzzwole and Toxapex, while still chipping pretty much everything else besides Slowbro, Skarmory, and Corviknight, which all hate the existence of Magnezone.
As I like your post and generally agree with it, I will talk about the lack of recovery and why I disagree with these points
1 - About the lack of recovery
While the wish support is true. It's not something to rely on and requires a lot of team support on my opinion. You need a cleric on your team which gave up a teamslot for another offensive mon or even a tank/wall. Also if the cleric dies it means that Zama doesn't has the reliable recovery anymore, and will be chipped down by Spikes really quick (yes, I mention spikes because this is the only way to solid chip it with a hazard, SR namely don't work because of 4x resist), meaning that you will need a Defogger too for the spikes. On my opinion is not worth using a cleric to help Zama with the issues, because not only you are gaving up 1 teamslot, but also if the cleric dies then it's over. It's very risky on my opinion, but yes Zama having recovery is high reward. But I have my issues with Wishport as a method of reliable recovery for Zama, while Grassy Terrain seems good to help, but still it's not the amount of recovery of Wishport and it's temporary and can be override by other terrains, but It's the best option by a mile, much better than wishport since Rilla is one of the best mom right now, another option is RestTalk, which can be decent however we all know RestTalk flaws, but on my opinion Wishport is not that good and worth on the paper, but the only we can do now is wait and theorycraft. On my opinion we need patient to free Zama in OU(like on the next tier shift)
Feel free to disagree and have a good day
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Why are people so scared of Zamazenta-C being good against offense? In previous gens, Taunt + SD Gliscor could single handedly 6-0 stall teams, as shown by this replay between ABR and Jytcampbell. No one considered Gliscor unhealthy and its presence in ORAS didn't make stall unviable. I think that it's fine if a certain Pokemon matches up really well against one of the more "extreme" (meaning things like HO or stall) playstyles, especially since those playstyles are often used to matchup fish against other teams themselves. I know that a lot of Smogon is prejudiced against stall, and I wonder if considering testing Zamazenta-C would elicit similar trepidation if it seemed like it would matchup well against stall instead of offense?

Overall, I'm of the opinion that we should just test it in the tier at some point. If it does prove to completely invalidate offense as a viable strategy, or has some other similarly unhealthy impact on the tier, it will just end up being banned again. I don't want to sound condescending, but I honestly don't get the point of theorizing about what impact it could have on the tier or why some people are so resistant to testing it. Obviously it could end up being unhealthy and people are absolutely entitled to having that opinion if it's tested and their experiences lead to them feeling that way, but what's the harm in testing it? I also understand if people think that other Pokemon should potentially be looked at first, but if the fear is that people who enjoy the tier in its current state don't want it to potentially be disrupted, I guess you just need to have some faith that if it does prove to be unhealthy, it won't last for long.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Could this zamazenta discussion be stopped? I've seen over hundreds of time it getting brought up in OU chatroom in PS and it leads to nowhere. This topic always leads to 50/50 ban/pro ban arguments on both sides.
If people seem to be divided on a topic, doesn’t that lend more credence to continuing to discuss it so that there can be more exposure to alternative viewpoints? Unless you feel like all of the discussion about it being banned or not is kind of pointless when it isn’t being tested yet, in which case I would agree. I feel like discussion regarding the topic should first focus on whether or not/when to test it, and then if people get experience with it in the tier/ladder for reqs, we could discuss banning it.
 
Last edited:
I've seen some interesting discussion surrounding Zama-C but this is just simply false. First of all, running it with some subset of Blissey, Clefable, Slowking, Slowbro and/or Glowking is not "an insane amount of team support". These are some of the best Pokémon in the tier and nearly every bulky offense team has 1 if not 2-3 of them. So let's rephrase that to "a perfectly reasonable amount of team support that is already present on any team Zama-C would be added to". Second, saying it offers no support in return is beyond absurd. With its bulk and speed together it checks nearly the entire offensive metagame. It's an easy pivot into Knock Off, Toxic or Trick. And it's an excellent late game cleaner if you've managed to eliminate your opponent's Scarfer. It's got a number of easy switch in opportunities off which to fire off very powerful attacks. It's not as if it's bad for the Zama-C user if it gets chipped down in the process of forcing the opponent to sacrifice 2 of their Pokémon.
Besides Blissey, none of the mons you mentioned were mentioned in that post. Also, it wouldn't just be Blissey, but Wish Pass Blissey which as mentioned in an earlier post is using up move slots.

Again, it requires much team support to become a decent pivot such as Defog support since it can't run boots

Edit. Forgot the mention of Future Sight but that is also support that it seems to need since as mentioned in that post, he has trouble breaking through certain common defensive mons.



Basically all the points that were made were being patched with some kind of support and not directly from sets the Mon can run itself.
 
Last edited:
If people seem to be divided on a topic, doesn’t that lend more credence to continuing to discuss it so that there can be more exposure to alternative viewpoints? Unless you feel like all of the discussion about it being banned or not is kind of pointless when it isn’t being tested yet, in which case I would agree. I feel like discussion regarding the topic should first focus on whether or not/when to test it first, and then if people get experience with it in the tier/ladder for reqs, we could discuss banning it.
Well i actually agree with your logic. But instead of arguing further, why not directly go for a suspect? That might be kind to both of our words
 
Screenshot_2021-03-16 [overused] [Room FAQs] - Showdown .png

I don't really have much to say, because this conversation has happened hundreds of times, and any points I make will probably be pretty redundant, but I might as well give some thoughts. The "no recover" argument does make sense, however, i feel that even without recovery, zama will be too hard to kill. Its combination of incredible 92/145/145 bulk, plus a resistance to rocks AND a toxic immunity, your going to have a hard killing it both through direct attacks or by wearing it down. Because of its immunity to toxic, defensive checks like pex will have a hard time killing/forcing it out, and zama can howl in its face to get a boost. Meanwhile, a lot of its offensive check will have a hard time killing it before it kills them.

However, this is all speculation, and I am in favor of a suspect test to determine if this is true. No harm can be done in trying it out.
 
At this point, let’s just test the overpowered doggo. If it doesn’t get tested, then this discussion will keep going round in circles, so let’s just test it. I’m convinced it will quickly prove to be completely broken in OU, so let’s test it, confirm it’s broken, and banish it back to Ubers forever. If it does turn out to somehow be balanced, then great, but unfortunately I don’t think that will be the case. Let’s just test it, ban it forever, and then move on.That seems to me to be the only way to resolve this debate.
 
I'm going to echo DeltaInsurgent's thoughts on a Zam-H suspect in addition to the Zam-C suspect. I definitely think it's a "close enough" situation to being worth a shot for a suspect test if the opportunity arises. People are definitely overrating it's overall attacking power, IMO. 130 attack is as much as Urshifu, but what made Urshifu broken was having a move as spammable as Wicked Blow. As DeltaInsurgent says, Close Combat as a move is very commonly resisted, and with its coverage being weak across the board, Choice Band sets seem fairly unappealing; this leaves it with either a bulk-boosting item (in which case why are you running this over Zam-C), or a Life Orb (or expert belt if you're feeling spicy). With LO Adamant - which speed ties with Timid Torn-T - it manages to just edge its way into 2hkoing many of its more common switchins with coverage - but it ultimately can't do enough to Slowbro and Pex to discourage them from just regening out. Even then, there are still hard walls that aren't too hard to fit; Zapdos sits on it to no end and presses hurricane, Tapu fini dodges a 2hko from everything except Wild Charge (which on a life orb pokemon seems like a risky move to run) and draining kisses in return, and Moltres could fairly reasonably come back from the grave to check it too. Defensive Lando takes almost nothing and threatens it out with toxic, and Hippo and Tangrowth only have to fear double CCs if they're not running lefties.

Obviously, being as fast as it is, being poor at breaking through most defensive cores is missing the point - the real issue is that its combination of speed, bulk and power could make it very difficult for offensive teams to deal with. It's worth noting, however, that some of the other common fast pokemon of the meta don't match up too badly against it. Tapu Koko revenge kills it with surprising safety, being able to avoid 2hkos much of the time from Timid and outspeeding and 2HKOing Adamant; Torn-T also dodges any 2hkos from Adamant, and deals at least 70% if its Hurricane hits (and can regen out if it doesn't). There are a few setup sweepers that can deal with it even after some chip; Dragonite with some bulk investment at +1 never takes more than 50% and 2hkos with Dual Wingbeat, and a +2 Adamant Rillaboom's Grassy Glide will put it in LO range or KO it outright.
You say that it "seems undesirable" to run CB on a mon with 138 base speed, 130 base attack, and potentially unresisted coverage. Why is that? Of course this does nothing to alleviate Zama-H's reliance on prediction to put in work, but it easily mitigates its considerably worse matchup against semi-stall and bulky offense (i.e., most teams on the ladder) by giving it easy 2HKO's on many of the tier's defensive mons (Tapu Fini, Slowbro, etc.). You can't competely discount what could easily be its best set in CB for your analysis. CB is undesirable on mons typically when they are some unfortunate combination of frail, slow and/or lacking coverage. None of these things are remotely true for Zama-H. My ultimate problem is that even if it's underwhelming for the reasons you mentioned, it still warps the tier into centralized around the same team archetypes that are already bordering on overpowered: 2-3 Regenerator mons, 3-4 pairs of HDB, and pivot moves on nearly every mon that can learn one. Zama-H practically invalidates hyper offensive builds as it checks virtually anything on those squads with its absurd bulk and amazing speed (even for OU). Urshifu isn't comparable because it's much less specially bulky and sits an unimpressive speed tier for OU.

Besides Blissey, none of the mons you mentioned were mentioned in that post. Also, it wouldn't just be Blissey, but Wish Pass Blissey which as mentioned in an earlier post is using up move slots.

Again, it requires much team support to become a decent pivot such as Defog support since it can't run boots

Edit. Forgot the mention of Future Sight but that is also support that it seems to need since as mentioned in that post, he has trouble breaking through certain common defensive mons.



Basically all the points that were made were being patched with some kind of support and not directly from sets the Mon can run itself.
With Defog you are referring to a type of team support that exist on nearly every team. Zama-C is hardly something that requires this support in the first place, as a single free turn coupled with good prediction is all that it needs to turn around a game. Defog is not "much team support", it is perfectly reasonable support that is available from a number of excellent Pokemon such as Corviknight, Tornadus-T, Tapu Fini, Latios, Dragonite, Zapdos, etc. But beyond that Zama-C is not crippled by having Stealth Rock on its side of the field. Pokemon that require much team support would include Pokemon like Arctozolt (hail), Obstagoon (webs), Venusaur (sun), Glastrier (TR), etc. The type of team support needed for this Pokemon is offered by Pokemon that are niche and offer little outside of their respective roles. The different types of team support that support Zama-C are numerous and offered by many of the best Pokemon in the tier, with nearly every Pokemon in OU able to offer some type of hazard setting, hazard control, Future Sight, pivoting, and/or Wish support.
 
There's a big difference between being part of a team that offers support and requiring support. The argument is that it might be too much for OU when Mons that have been banned in the past Barely required support at all and could basically pick and choose what Pokes get to counter them. That's something zama definitely cannot do
 
There's a big difference between being part of a team that offers support and requiring support. The argument is that it might be too much for OU when Mons that have been banned in the past Barely required support at all and could basically pick and choose what Pokes get to counter them. That's something zama definitely cannot do
Yes, there is a huge difference. Zama-C is the former. And you're completely wrong that Zama-C doesn't get to choose its counters. In the strict sense of a counter it potentially can run the correct moveset to counter any Pokémon in the tier in the 1v1 (outside of possibly a few sleep inducers). Thus it's not even choosing its counters but its checks. Of course there's switching and a number of Pokémon serve as good interim pivots which of course centralizes the metagame even further around Regenerator pivots. The question is not just whether Zama-C is too much for OU, but also whether its impact on the metagame at large is healthy. I'm not going to continue the team support conversation with you. Defog support is neither strictly required by Zama-C nor anything short of abundant in the tier so it's absurd to keep pointing at this as something that somehow keeps Zama-C in check.
 
Last edited:
Yes, there is a huge difference. Zama-C is the former. And you're completely wrong that Zama-C doesn't get to choose its counters. In the strict sense of a counter it potentially can run the correct moveset to counter any Pokémon in the tier in the 1v1 (outside of possibly a few sleep inducers). Thus it's not even choosing its counters but its checks. Of course there's switching and a number of Pokémon serve as good interim pivots which of course centralizes the metagame even further around Regenerator pivots. The question is not just whether Zama-C is too much for OU, but also whether its impact on the metagame at large is healthy. I'm not going to continue the team support conversation with you. Defog support is neither strictly required by Zama-C nor anything short of abundant in the tier so it's absurd to keep pointing at this as something that somehow keeps Zama-C in check.
Not only will it lose to sleep inducers, it'll lose to a few willow wisp users as well, most notably Mew. Looking at the list of Willow Wisp users and pretty much most of them could wall the standard set


It also loses 1v1 to the standard Volcarona set

Yall can laugh react all you want but it's not very often a so called broken mon can get hard walled 1v1 while giving his nature, stats and moveset crazy leeway
 
Last edited:

Nix_Hex

Uangaana kasuttortunga!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Could this zamazenta discussion be stopped? I've seen over hundreds of time it getting brought up in OU chatroom in PS and it leads to nowhere. This topic always leads to 50/50 ban/pro ban arguments on both sides.
Are we thinking of the same chat? I've run several room tours in that room with Z-C unbanned and hardly anybody uses it. Zama-C isn't really a debate in PS Overused, more like a circlejerk of "Zama-C is trash." If anyone is interested, I'll run a couple tonight (7 PM GMT -7) and see how things turn out; expect little usage, and prepare to see Zama do very little for the people who do end up using it.

I don't wish to join in on this discussion because I have nothing to add that hasn't already been covered by better players and more articulate posters.
 

Fusien

"What do you think, Zach?"
is a Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion
I’d have to disagree a bit on the ou room stuff, as my experiences as part of OU room staff have been a bit different than NixHex’s. Sure, there is a lot of support behind the zama being fine in OU, but there is also a good amount of backing for zama being too much. The same points are often brought up on both sides, as death dreigon has stated, and usually the convo deteriorates, hence why rfaq zama is really helpful sometimes lol. As for the custom room tours, while they offer a general view into what a mon can do, it’s not fully accurate. You can not expect to get an exact replica of what a meta would look like with a mon solely through custom tours due to the other factors present (building time, limited people, meta shifts, etc). So if Zama c isn’t the best in custom tours, that doesn’t necessarily mean it will be perfectly fine in regular OU. All this being said, and despite how annoying zama c talk often gets due to its repetitive nature, I wouldn’t mind a suspect test to see if it is OU worthy or not. I personally believe it’s a bit too much, but there’s no harm or major problem really in testing for a bit, especially when the meta is overall stable as a person said earlier. If it turns out to be broken then cool it’s broken. If it turns out to be fine then cool it’s fine. Either way, the suspect time would be a better indicator of how good zama c would be in OU than random custom room tours. That being said, if it’s not suspected, I wouldn’t really care, as I don’t have strong feelings on this subject really.
 
Last edited:
So,today I would like to talk about a pokemon that has been amazing in this meta after getting buffs the pokemon I would like to talk about is
Zapdos-Kanto. It has many good effective spreads and after HDB have been added zapdos has been a monster.Losing hp ice was a tough blow BUT it got the 1 move that changed quite a lot. HURRICANE [weather ball was also a buff].I'm going to discuss some spreads for zapdos and also the things it beats.
Pokemon it beats-
1.Rillaboom
2.Kartana
3.Corviknight
4.Tornadus-Therian
[all sets except np + psychic/sludge wave/weather ball as zap cant ohko broken ass torn and weather ball +rock/ice is fake :P
You can bypass this by making zap modest and use 72 precious ivs and use tbolt ] 72+ SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 300-354 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
5.Melmetal
6.Ferrothorn [Note:if it has heat wave]
7.Slowbro-Kanto
8.Zapdos-Galar [Pro Tip,dont defog on it]
9.Tangrowth [Try not to switch into sleep powder]
10.Dragonite
11.Hawlucha
12.Scizor [ if it has heat wave]
I think thats all the stuff it counters... dm me other mons it beats if I missed something.
Now,we reach the different sets​
Zapdos @ Choice Specs
Ability: Static
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunder/Discharge/Thunderbolt [use thunder on rain discharge for parahax :) and tbolt for 10% more damage than discharge which is important for some calcs]
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave/Weather Ball [Weather Ball on rain otherwise heat wave is awesome]
- Volt Switch [Pivot Move>Roost (on this set) ]
This Thing is absolutely hilarious to use. Calcs Below
Best Calc's ever.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 180-213 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 198-234 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 266-314 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 220-261 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 63.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 141-166 (19.7 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO that means that 2 even min roll vs + 2 hurricanes that hit gets a ko on blissey.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 313-370 (96.3 - 113.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 313-369 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 346-408 (90.5 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock [Insert My Lando in mexican]
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 330-388 (92.4 - 108.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 376-444 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock [phat hippo]
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Think Thats enough calcs ? ig it is but if yall wanna make me add more i might add more ?
Set-2 Defensive
Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Timid Nature
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spe
- Discharge
- Roost
- Heat Wave/Defog
-Hurricane
This is more of a traditional zapdos and outspeeds Addy Rillaboom.This Set can beat rillaboom kartana [most]melmetals dnite and sometimes beats hawlucha [its a roll in your favour] calcs below
Calcs-
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 318-376 (83 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 342-404 (89.2 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Multiscale Hit- 0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 72-85 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- 11.5% chance to 4HKO +2 spdef on dnite for multiscale
After Scale Breaks- 0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 144-169 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
+3 252 Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 303-357 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 174-206 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
On Roost- 116 Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 192-228 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 236-278 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 306-360 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage not like any1 runs rock slide anyway but zap lives

Just a few calcs there and I'll go to the next set.
Set-3 [Note:I hate this set and it can burn to the ground for all I care :)]
This Set makes me feel sadness and its a damn pp stalling set :/
Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Timid Nature
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
- Discharge
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Substitute
This Set Just is Straightup Degenerate and thats coming from some1 who uses vincune... It just pp stalls EVERYTHING. it outcreeps base 95s like lele kyurem and the rest of hp def is just... there.

Revenge Killers.
Now I think a lot of ppl struggle to beat zap so This is the zap revenge killer section.
Swords Dance Landorus-T beats Zap and So does SD chomp. These mons are usually able to take two hits.
Kyurem.It resists discharge hits super effectively and doesnt take too much from hurricane.
Weaville.It uses triple axel to ohko zap if it hits and is banded
Tyranitar.Being The Goat and taking 22 from discharge even when fully offensive ttar is a gr8 counter since even power creep cant make stone edge not ohko a zap.
Tapu Koko.It has good resistances to zapdos and thereby it beats zap 1v1 if specs or even if it takes damage before.
I think thats enough for 1 post.
Note:Zap also beats zama which is the disscussion threads new topic so its already important.
Sam Out !
 

Gomi

yep
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Fusien and Nixhex made cool posts so I figured I'd toss my opinion out there given I probably hate Zama discussion more than anyone else lol

Just test it, like GOD damn just test it. There's nothing you lose when testing this mon given the metagame is a reasonable stable spot atm and we get to not have to listen to any more of this worthless, circlejerky, awful theorymonning anymore about how wishport clef+zama-c actually 6-0s Offense if X perfect scenario goes through.
Please I'm going to lose my mind if I have to see one more awful zama argument anywhere, it's a public health hazard
 
Just gonna throw my one cent (I don't know if my opinion carries enough weight to be worth two cents): this ongoing discussion is getting to be as obnoxious as the Arena Trap bullsquid from the start of this Gen. (as an aside, permaban arena trap going forward, plz and ty)
I'm on the fence. I don't like legendary pokemon in OU. Period. Already voiced a nonsense opinion on that. But I'm always in favor of bans and retests.
So go for it.
Gomi is right, stop talking and do it. If you start today, you'll be done a two week suspect just in time for April Fool's, where you can unban Zama-whatever, and then QB it next day April 2nd if it's too much xD
Regardless of what the council chooses to do, I've regained faith that your decisions will be swift and correct. Thank you for the recent flurry of tests and bans. You have made OU healthy and fun again.

Be well, have a happy Thursday!
 

Abhi

Professional Zoomer
is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hello there :afrostar:

Moving on from the discussion about Zamazenta-C, I'd like to bring up a pokemon that has been overshadowed for a long time, Urshifu-R. It's often overlooked and underestimated in non-Rain teams, and for good reason. It has a lot of common checks and counters and an unimpressive STAB combination. That being said, I still think it has some potential in non-Rain teams.

:ss/urshifu-rapid-strike:
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet
- U-turn

Urshifu-R has been overshadowed by its Dark-type counterpart being Urshifu-S. Since its ban Urshifu-R had hope of being the prominent Fighting type in the tier but was outclassed by better physical threats like Kartana and Cinderace. Slowbros prominence in the tier because of Cinderace didnt help it either and made it a very niche pick. However, since Cinderace's ban Slowbro has dropped in usage which helps out Urshifu-R. It still has a good number of checks in Tangrowth, Rillaboom, Toxapex and Zapdos but none that require too much team support to get around.

How to use it
Urshifu-R fits best on Balance and Bulky Offence teams in my experience and also does well in FWG cores with Rillaboom and Heatran. Choice Band is my personal preference since otherwise it loses out on a lot of power with Choice Scarf or Protective Pads. I usually like to pair it with good Knock Off users like Landorus-T that can bait in common Rocky Helmet users like Tangrowth, Garchomp and Corviknight and knock off their helmets which helps with Urshifu-R's Rocky Helmet weakness. Since a lot of people dont prepare for it often people use Pokemon like Slowking and Corviknight to switch into Urshifu-R which Urshifu-R can abuse and KO those pokemon, this is why Pokemon which benefit from these pokemon being removed like Rillaboom and Heatran make good partners.
Why it's good
A lot of people say it's underwhelming, because it is if I'm being honest, but it has potential. Its able to get rid of common defensive Pokemon like Landorus-T, Corviknight, Mandibuzz and Swampert with its STABs which can pave the way for its teammates. It can also help offensively check pokemon like Kyurem and Tapu Lele which can ease pressure on its team as well. It can also clean late game with Surging Strikes since it's a hard move to switch into if it's not a Water resist. U-turn also helps it keep up momentum in a game, which also let's it fit on more VoltTurn styled teams.

Well that's all I have to say about the Water Bear, Bye! :blobwizard:


PS. Theres a team in the sprite.


 
Last edited:
Hello there :afrostar:

Moving on from the discussion about Zamazenta-C, I'd like to bring up a pokemon that has been overshadowed for a long time, Urshifu-R. It's often overlooked and underestimated in non-Rain teams, and for good reason. It has a lot of common checks and counters and an unimpressive STAB combination. That being said, I still think it has some potential in non-Rain teams.

:ss/urshifu-rapid-strike:
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet
- U-turn

Urshifu-R has been overshadowed by its Dark-type counterpart being Urshifu-S. Since its ban Urshifu-R had hope of being the prominent Fighting type in the tier but was outclassed by better physical threats like Kartana and Cinderace. Slowbros prominence in the tier because of Cinderace didnt help it either and made it a very niche pick. However, since Cinderace's ban Slowbro has dropped in usage which helps out Urshifu-R. It still has a good number of checks in Tangrowth, Rillaboom, Toxapex and Zapdos but none that require too much team support to get around.

How to use it
Urshifu-R fits best on Balance and Bulky Offence teams in my experience and also does well in FWG cores with Rillaboom and Heatran. Choice Band is my personal preference since otherwise it loses out on a lot of power with Choice Scarf or Protective Pads. I usually like to pair it with good Knock Off users like Landorus-T that can bait in common Rocky Helmet users like Tangrowth, Garchomp and Corviknight and knock off their helmets which helps with Urshifu-R's Rocky Helmet weakness. Since a lot of people dont prepare for it often people use Pokemon like Slowking and Corviknight to switch into Urshifu-R which Urshifu-R can abuse and KO those pokemon, this is why Pokemon which benefit from these pokemon being removed like Rillaboom and Heatran make good partners.
Why it's good
A lot of people say it's underwhelming, because it is if I'm being honest, but it has potential. Its able to get rid of common defensive Pokemon like Landorus-T, Corviknight, Mandibuzz and Swampert with its STABs which can pave the way for its teammates. It can also help offensively check pokemon like Kyurem and Tapu Lele which can ease pressure on its team as well. It can also clean late game with Surging Strikes since it's a hard move to switch into if it's not a Water resist. U-turn also helps it keep up momentum in a game, which also let's it fit on more VoltTurn styled teams.

Well that's all I have to say about the Water Bear, Bye! :blobwizard:


PS. Theres a team in the sprite.


yh it really got a lot better post mage and cinderace bans. Even more importantly than slowbro itself losing usage IMO is that it doesnt run helmet nearly as much now, and helmet in general isn't that popular anymore, which is great for watershifu, as it no longer has to fear getting massively punished for clicking the move it wants to click most often. It can still get walled, but it doesn't get punished nearly as hard for just clicking moves as it did before.
Also there has been a slight rise in physical defense setup mons like iron defense skarmory, iron defense magnezone and bulk up corviknight which tend to use substitute(except skarm), and surging strikes is great to put the pressure on such threats; while not a counter as such sets tend to run super effective moves, it can serve as an emergency check if they are already set up and hard to remove and/or chipped.

It still ain't a world beater like its cousin, but a lot of things that made using it REALLY miserable are gone or not popular
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top