Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Right now, I see the discussion 2 different ways.
  • Regen cores are not unbeatable.
  • The counterplay to regen cores is viable even when fighting regenless teams.
  • Regen cores are not inherently luck-reliant.
  • Players are not at an inherent disadvantage for not using regen cores.
  • There are seemingly no proposed changes that have majority support by experienced players.
Those points alone would under normal circumstances be enough to dismiss the idea of making a change regarding the regencore situation. I understand some of these may be debatable but coming from a player who mostly just uses offense/HO, this isn't because of bias.

But...
  • Regenerator cores seem somewhat unpopular, especially coming from people who don't play Gen 8 too much.
  • So restricting them, somehow, might bring more people back to the tier, which I feel would be good.
  • I have heard discussions of individual bans for Torn-T, HDB, or Pex, and a Regen Clause would likely satisfy all of those groups.
  • Regen cores are somewhat restrictive when teambuilding, and limiting them would potentially free up other playstyles. As we have seen with Melmetal, though, "somewhat restrictive" isn't enough for most people on its own.
  • Regen cores are pretty much mandatory to stall teams, and limiting them might make it impossible to build a truly viable stall team.
  • On average, I have more fun fighting regencore-less teams than those that do. I know other people share that opinion.
  • I feel that how fun a format is to the majority of players is something worth considering for a competitive metagame.
  • I feel that the more democratic input the community has on a format, the better. The council has been pretty good with this recently, and the Melmetal test was an example of how we can try things out and get a clear answer from the playerbase so we can move on afterwards.
And...
  • We currently don't know how the meta would be affected by any restriction like this - for example could it cause something like Melmetal, Urshifu or Tapu Lele to become broken in the eyes of the majority of the playerbase?
  • Although I personally don't have fun fighting (or playing) stall, the precendent of "make this change to eliminate this playstyle" without that playstyle being broken or luck-reliant, doesn't seem that great to me.
  • The closest thing to a history of something like this working would be the "2 Ability Clause" in Almost Any Ability, which is probably too far from Gen 8 OU for any meaningful conclusions to be made.
The solution in my eyes would be to start with a community survey as soon as possible, ideally before SV, that gets player's thoughts on the current meta. This survey should include a bunch of proposed solutions to the "regencore problem" and a slider to rate the survey-taker's level of approval for each solution. This should include options to suspect test Item Clause, Regen Clause, Tornadus, Toxapex and Regenerator, as well as anything unrelated like Weavile that people feel might be worth testing. This survey data should be made public as usual and if anything gets significant enough support, I feel the council should consider testing it, and ideally the suspect ladder should include the proposed changes so people actually get a feel of what it's like in practice.

Personally, I feel like Regen Clause as proposed by Mimikyu Stardust would be the best compromise solution, though any changes need to be directly voted in by the playerbase for them to be fair.
 
Current Sword and Shield OU Meta, Ban Regnerator spam/stacking
(with a side of heavy duty boots)


small disclaimer: english isnt my first languange so please mind the bad grammar

Hello everyone, As the tier is coming to a close as a current gen meta and into the ruins of alph, the meta has been ironed out and optimalized quite well, on whats the best, the good, the bad and the dominant. 2 Things that i feel like have gotten more usage and dominated the meta are two things, Regenerator Spam and Heavy-Duty Boots.

This post is going to focus more on Regenerator spam and in the end i will give some thoughts on heavy duty boots, as the discussion of boots have been done to death and back.

this is a bit lengthy but the most important parts of this post are

Replays and Example of Games
and the brief explanation/Verdict below that and of course my solutions at the bottom, so if you dont have time you can just read that part but i do appreciate you read everything here.

Why I think having more than one regenerator pokemon is unbalanced and deserved to be looked at

Regenerator Spam has been reallty good or even dominating the meta for a while, giving teams amazing defensive backbone without having to invest into a fatter more stall-like build, this has made making progress againts teams very difficult as having 2 regenerator pokemon with 1 or 2 more pokemon with good defensive utility you are forced to always play aggressively and even with one mistake, that can take you back a ton of progress, and if that core is paired with devastating offensive pokemon like :tapu-lele: Tapu Lele or :melmetal: Melmetal, you also have to be more careful as to how you play your defensively and not fall to these great offensive threat like in this game where the regen-spam offense was able to use pex and glowking to switch around and stall out the opponent a bit to regen and do chip damage.

Not only that, defensively it can make teams very hard to break. when mons like :rillaboom: Rillaboom and :garchomp: Garchomp and :melmetal: Melmetal or :heatran: Heatran gets paired with a regen spam core of :tornadus-therian: Tornadus and :toxapex: Toxapex or :slowking-galar:Slowking-G or :slowbro: Slowbro it creates a very tough team to crack with the safety of switching around with regenerations while being able to cripple and chip down the opponent team with status, hazard and future sight like in this replay here. So both bulky offense teams and balance teams are able to use regenerator-spam to their advantage.

Regenrator spam also has a much easier time to succeed in this gen than the last few due to changes like teleport buff and heavy-duty boots. It lets you play even more passively with mons like tornadus and slowbro/slowking able to use boots and ignore hazard damage. This makes chipping them very difficult to deal meaningful damage, while you can use knock off but with mons like clefable or toxapex as knock absorber it will be much harder knocking off heavy-duty boots.

Offense and Balance teams alike can have a tough time dealing with regenerator-spam because how it can invalidate how they play normally.

Offense
requires momentum and breaking huge holes on the enemy team quickly with massive attacks combined with small support from status and hazard and great predictions in which later on in the game you can clean in the endgame with a fast pokemon or a set-up sweeper like in this battle. However, regenerator spam makes it much harder to do, as regenerator pokemon can at least take any 1 big hit or super effective move to scout, and then switch to a different pokemon that can counter. For example, a lot of people runs spdef slowbro, when faced againts a specs dragapult, this slowbro can take the super effective shadow ball first (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 272-324 (69.2 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and slack off to scout if the dragapult wants to predict something and then switch out, despite taking 82%, slowbro healed back up to around 70% with slack off and can regenerate the rest back to full in which slowbro can do it all over again later in the game. That's already tough on its own but when 2 regenrator pokemon gets paired together + pokemon with good defensive utility it gets even tougher, a good combo is tornadus + toxapex, where both pokemon are able to take 1 or 2 big hits and then is able to switch into one another, or a different pokemon with good resistance that can create momentum through damage or passive damage. For example, dragapult or even blacephalon againts a torn-pex-weavile which is a common build will have a very hard time to break though. If dragapult is out, pex is usually a safe switch, if the pult uses shadow ball, you have a free switch to weavile to deal damage, if it clicks draco, you can safely switch into torn as it wont take too much damage from draco and can regen it, if it predicts and clicks flamethrower, just stay in. Of course this is just one example of interaction but it shows how stacking regen mons can make it very hard to outplay for offense.

Balance requires slow and safe plays slowly making progress though passive damage, chip damage while preventing that from your opponent with recovery moves, heavy-duty boots, hazard control and magic guard, so in the end game the opponent's team have been crippled enough that you can clean in the endgame with either a fast pokemon or a set up sweeper like in this battle. Regenerator spam completely messes up this interaction. Balance needs to match the passiveness of these regen spam teams with either stacking magic guard/heavy-duty boots or having a regen spam of ur own. This means balance really need to go super passive with at least 1 super strong breaker or set-up sweeper to be able to defeat opposing balance so it wont go to a stalemate, popular mons among those are :melmetal: Melmetal, :reuniclus: set up reuniclus, :dragapult: Hex pult and etc. and since balance is the most popular playstyle at the moment a lot of games can go very long like this battle.

To put it simply,

Stacking 2 or more regenerator pokemon lets you:
Able to create a solid/great defensive core without having to go fat.
Able to play more passively due to passive health gain.
Able to have safe pivots into more dangerous offensive threat.
With additions of gen 8 like teleport, future sight and heavy-duty boots regenerator-spam has a much easier and safer time switching around and dealing damage passively.

There are 13 Fully Evolved regenerator pokemon in which 7 of them are viable, to give a better understanding of viability i will put them in their respective tiers below and explain what they do.

GREAT
S

:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-T :slowking-galar: Slowking-G
A
:toxapex: Toxapex :slowbro: Slowbro
A-
:slowking: Slowking
GOOD
B

:reuniclus: Reuniclus :tangrowth: Tangrowth
MEH
C

:amoonguss:
Very Niche/Bad
D

:audino: Audino :mienshao: Mienshao :eldegoss: Eldegoss

Heres a brief explanation of the 4 best and most common ones do.

:tornadus-therian: Torn-T is a swiss-army pokemon with its many set from being great utility with knock off, u turn, defog, toxic, taunt and its great potential offensive prowess with nasty plot, hurricane, focus blast, icy wind, heat wave, weather ball, sludge bomb, superpower or even using assault vest to be an excellent spdef check to most things and its excellent speed that can beat many common fast offensive threat like :weavile: Adamant Weavile, :kartana: Kartana, :tapu-lele: Tapu Lele, :urshifu: Urshifu and many more.
While it doesn't have the greatest bulk of 79/80/90 it is enough to be able to take some great hits like draco meteor from specs dragapult and it makes up for it in speed, regenerator, the use of heavy-duty boots and utility. it can safely stay in on most choiced attackers, knock them off, and regenerate off its lost HP by u-turning into something that can beat the current threat better, an example is Torn knocking off a scarf lele, and then u-turning off into slowking-g/heatran. Overall its ability of taking any 1 or 2 stray hits, speed control, many sets makes it a really good pivot.

:slowking-galar: Slowking-G is an amazing tank, with its great damage output from its 110 Special attack and great bulk of 95/80/110 able to go both physically and specially defensive depending on the team and set. Its most dominant and common set is :assault-vest: Assault Vest with its unique typing, it is able to beat all of the fairies in OU while taking neutral damage from all the non-ghost special attacker in OU and threaten back with a super effective move or a poison. It can run quite a lot of things from the common future sight, sludge bomb, flametrhower, ice beam, scald to the less common but still excellent hydro pump, earthquake, psychic/psyshock, whirlpool and even some very niche moves like focus blast, eerie spell and power gem. This set is quite weak to physical attackers or coverage moves like psyshock which is why its physically defensive/lure set is also another excellent set, with its decent 95/80 bulk it can take a surprising amount of physical moves and hit back hard as physical attackers usually have poor special defense. It usually runs a trick black sludge set to cripple walls or a weakness berry (usually colbur or shuca) to lure in mons with super effective attacks, survive the hit, and kill it back with something super effective. Overall a great wall that is able to go both side of the defensive spectrum and lure a lot of things.

:toxapex: Toxapex is the face of regenerator, GREAT bulk on both sides, Amazing defensive typing, utility from knock to trapping, and the flexibility of it being able to be in most team style from BO to Stall. Its biggest strenght is in its bulk being able to take more than 2 hits from most strong attacks like scarf blace shadow ball, :kartana: Kartana Leaf Blade and :weavile: Weavile knock off and then able to stall them out with recover or set up tspikes and switch into a better counter while regenning yourself. It's vast array of utility move and its bulk to be able to take a lot of strong hits and pivot out is what makes pex the face of regenerator (albeit not as good as before).

:slowbro: Slowbro is an amazing pivot with teleport and future sight, it is able to both get in any pokemon safely with the -priority pivot teleport while regenerating itself off, and do great damage with future sight and able to support offensive pokemon by hitting their counter in the same time as them with future sight (for example: Future Sight -> teleport to weavile -> attack which can beat weavile's counter like buzzwole, urshifu and toxapex). Slowbro is able to run both physical and special defensive set depending on the team and can be a great lure with sets like colbur berry with body press to lure weavile, ice beam to nail cocky garchomps, flamethrower to hit ferrothorn or even thunder wave to help its teammate. It can also run many items from boots to ignore hazard, rocky helmet to chip or even colbur berry to lure. Slowbro is a very versatile pokemon and it is definetly one of the best bulky waters in SS.

So, now with all that out of the way, i want to give explanations and examples on why regen-spam is broken.

lets say you have :tornadus-therian: Tornadus + :weavile: Weavile + :toxapex: Toxapex + electric immunity immunity (as you should have). That core is quite common and has been used a lot in tournaments. The opponent has a choiced tapu lele and your steel type has been trapped and removed by :magnezone: Magnezone, you can safely go to tornadus, check what item it is based on damage and scout what move its used, if it used moonblast, you have a free toxapex, if it used psychic, you have a free weavile switch to deal damage and pressure the opponent. You can just switch, and regen off the damage by getting tornadus in later on a double to something like :landorus-therian: Lando-T that switched into your pex, letting you heal off 33% each time, but thats just lele, what about other mons like :kartana: Kart or :blacephalon: Blace? you can still switch around from tornadus to pex to weave and your other defensive mon almost infinitely until you can make a safe pivot into your real threat, wittle them with hazard/status or make a good double switch/prediction.

and the even better part about stacking regenerator, the danger of getting caught by a good prediction is reduced by a lot. to give the same example with lele, say you have a lando on the field, your steel type is dead, and the opponent just switched in lele, so you go torn to see what it clicked, and it predicted that by clicking thunderbolt which does a lot, but doesn't quite kill you, now you just go back to lando and your torn has regened half of the damage dealt to it from that double and can try to find another opportunity to regen again so it can soft-check lele again. This cycle of going to regen -> other regen -> counter can go on while you slowly chip down the opponent in an almost endless loop unless you also match them in passivity with either your own regen spam + status knock spam or boots + magic guard spam or have to do many great predictions, double to out heal them with your offense.

Now a lot of balance teams, including regen spam uses :heavy-duty-boots: Heavy-Duty Boots to face of againts hazard and chip damage. Knock off counters that strategy, by slowly knocking off every non magic guard pokemon they will eventually be susceptible to hazard damge and can be worn down to be cleaned off later in the game. While regen-spam teams also use heavy duty boots for mons like tornadus and the slow-twins, they aren't as susceptible to hazard as normal team since they can regenerate off their health and effectively cancel out hazard damage

Now i have some example of games that showcase the strength of regen-spam from tournaments, big and small. (A disclaimer: I am not bashing any of the players that are featured in the replays below, they are incredibly talented players. I am just using their games as an example)

Replays and Example of Games


:weavile::urshifu-rapid-strike::zapdos::tapu-fini::landorus-therian::heatran: VS :tyranitar::slowking-galar::clefable::excadrill::tornadus-therian::rotom-wash:
ewin vs xavgb (SCL Game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-647178

In this game, its a Bulky Offense team fighting againts a sand balance, the match-up is quite even for both sides, weavile looks threatening from ewin once clefable, excadrill and rotom are chipped.

The match starts off not too great for ewin as their :heatran: offensive heatran gets tricked by :clefable: sticky barb clefable, which makes them unable to lure :rotom-wash: rotom and counter clefable safely, but then caught a break by getting :tornadus-therian: xavgb's tornadus-therian paralyzed from static and tricking clefable a choice scarf from :tapu-fini: tapu fini, at this moment it looks good for ewin as one of :weavile: weaviles counter has been tricked and tornadus can't pivot in and out as safe as before, but then after heatran died, it quickly turns sour. Despite Tornadus being paralyzed, it is still able to check both tapu fini and urshifu effectively, and when weavile comes in, xavgb just goes to rotom and tyranitar. After around 30 turns, xavgb was able to get back into the game by pivoting the paralyzed tornadus into pokemon that beats ewin's current pokemon on the field and repeatedly getting regenerator off and free pivot while slowly chipping down ewin's team and killing zapdos with stray moonblast, u-turn, sand and future sight. After that, xavgb just effectively pivots around with their regenerator pokemon and win with slowking-g spamming furure sight and tornadus-t spamming hurricane.

So in that game, despite :tornadus-therian: Tornadus-T getting paralyzed early, it was still able to check and pivot around everything and chip down ewin's team, and towards the end it was compounded even more with another regenerator pokemon in :slowking-galar: Slowking-G as it switches freely into both tapu fini and zapdos and spam future sight, and switch out to regenerate its health to tornadus-t which can also regenerate and pivot out itself, which makes it incredibly hard for ewin to make meaningful progress.

:garchomp::rillaboom::slowking-galar::toxapex::melmetal::tornadus-therian: VS :clefable::slowbro::scizor::heatran::landorus-therian::dragapult:
SOULWIND vs Raptor (OLT Semi Final's Game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-656997

In this game, its 2 Balance teams facing off againts each other, Raptor's team relies on spreading status with every pokemon so that :dragapult: specs hex dragapult can dish out massive damage and clean the game with support of aromatheraphy clefable. Soulwind's team relies on its longevity, slowly but surely chipping down the opponent with status, hazard and chip damage from future sight in which later rillaboom can clean.

In this match, it shows how difficult it is for raptor to make progress even after statusing most of soulwind's pokemon making tha dragapult able to 2hko everything, Soulwind is just able to go to a regen pokemon, take the big hit from dragapult, and go to spdef garchomp or melmetal/slowking-g (depending if raptor used a ghost move or dragon move) and heal up later which is much easier with grassy terrain. Soulwind just need to make sure to not let garchomp be toxiced and it is a smooth game (just look at the first 30 turns). Not only that, even if garchomp was toxiced, soulwind is still able to go melmetal on ghost moves and protect to gain back health. After many turns of future sight and small chip damage, melmetal and rillaboom are able to clean in the endgame.

:slowking-galar::skarmory::excadrill::slowbro::tyranitar::buzzwole: VS :keldeo::ferrothorn::clefable::heatran::landorus-therian::dragapult:
Edrala vs Empo (OLT SWISS ROUND)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-646024

In this game edrala uses SpDef slowbro and slowking-g on his sand balance, while empo has a spikestack team with sub cm keldeo which can be problematic.

Empo doesn't have the greatest matchup but what empo does have is keldeo which in theory should win easily, as edrala only has slowbro with future sight to threaten it, and set-up sweepers are regenerator spam natural weakness. However, this game showcases how you can just play super passively until empo's team get chipped down with passive damage, just how edrala can safely stay in on dragapult with slowbro, if empo draco's, just stay in or teleport and if empo shadow ball, edrala can just go tyranitar. Now, another strength of regen-spam that is showcased here is when keldeo begins to set-up, slowbro was able to teleport in and out and keep regenerating on keldeo while using future sight to break sub until keldeo is so low that it can be revenged by excadrill. So despite having a poor matchup, many set-up sweepers can be slowly chipped down by passive damage while the regenerator spam team can switch around between walls and the other regen pokemon until the sweeper is dead whether it be keldeo like in this battle, garchomp, dragonite, etc.



:tapu-koko::urshifu-rapid-strike::ferrothorn::garchomp::tornadus-therian::slowking-galar: VS :tapu-lele::tapu-fini::magnezone::melmetal::landorus-therian::tornadus-therian:
RaiZen1704 vs Dahli (OLT SWISS ROUND)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-646716

In this game, Raizen is using a more offensive version of a regen-spam team and dahli is using a standard lele-zone offense with fini and melmetal.

This game showcases something that regen-spam team can afford doing, staying in on a big damaging move with much less risk than usual, RaiZen can afford staying in landorus-therian potential earthquake with slowking-galar with his physically invested Slowking-G in turn 8 (based on U-turn crit damage) and :melmetal: melmetal's double iron bash with :tornadus-therian: tornadus-therian to be able to knock it off at turn 13 and flamethrower the incoming melmetal for permanent damage, even after torn was hurt its still able to come in on dahli's own tornadus which then gets ejected out into lele, even after making the right read with psyshock, raizen can still go to ferrothorn and heal slowking-g back up again by switching it into torn to essentially full by turn 29 which wins wins raizen the game. The fact that regenerator can let your pokemon go down to near death amounts of hp, and let them still be able to still get their hp back to almost full is nuts.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-649485

:kartana::umbreon::tapu-lele::tornadus-therian::toxapex::hippowdon: VS :ferrothorn::rotom-wash::tyranitar::excadrill::clefable::dragapult:
Meroz vs fatbatman (OURLT Playoffs)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1689689751-mi2guhos677q1tpaefjk34nz35g0w13pw

In this game, fatbatman uses a standard sand balance team while meroz brought an unconvential sand balance with mons like umbreon.

This replay may not be in the same grade of tournament games but it shows everything thats strong about regenerator spam, having 2 regenerator, 2 big walls and 2 strong attackers it really makes the most used of it. In this game meroz didn't have to make much aggressive plays since their defensive core of pex-torn-hippo-umbreon creates an almost perfect counter to fatbatman's team. Meroz took this game slowly with getting rotom toxiced, defogging rocks with torn and brawling with clefable to stall out turns and healing up with umbreon for 30+ turns until rotom gets low and meroz was able to beat the excadrill which is big since it hindered kartana and lele to throw out big hits safely. After that meroz was able to play it safe until they can pivot in tapu lele to finish off the game.

There still way more replay i can show on how great regenerator spam is, but that would make this post WAY too long (and plus, i don't have that much free time) but i hope these 6 games were enough proof on how strong regenerator spam is.

Verdict

now i know its not impossible to beat regenerator spam, there are replays that shows you can overwhelm them with the right team and plays like in this replay here or this one but i do genuinely think its unbalanced letting someone able to make extremely risky plays and be let off easily, it makes predictions way less rewarding for offense team and its hard for balance teams to punish without matching them in regen or having a surprise set-up sweeper, as knocking off lefties/boots and status don't quite have the same effect as they do againts regular balance teams. Not only that, a regen-spam team vs a balance/stall team can easily lead to stalemates and ties due to how easily it is to heal yourself up and switch around, you can just catch your opponent's offensive pokemon on a bad prediction, or if you have a good match up just keep up pressure with hazard and infinitely switch which has happen like in this game.

Overall, regenerator-spam creates quite a boring metagame as it is quite a cheap combo to be able to safely gain a net 66% health just by switching from one regen, to another. Gen 8 has turn into quite a boring metagame with a surge in passive playstyle that mainly abuses regenerator and heavy-duty boots. While boots is often said to be the main culprit of this due to it removing hazard damage, boots is able to create offensive teams work aswell with mons like :moltres-galar: G-molt and :volcarona: Volcarona being amazing. Since even with knock off, regen spam has the tools to prevent them like having an absorber in clefable. Having this 2-mon combo that can invalidate predictions, passive damage, knock off, huge damage and make the game overall slower, able to take extremely high risk with no worry makes the game way less competitive and boring which is what a lot of people think is the problem with generation 8 OU.

My Solutions are.

Ban regenerator as a whole
Limit to ONLY one regenerator per team
Ban Boots

Ive seen a lot of people wanting boots banned but i do feel despite how anoyying it is, its not the biggest problem. Yea, it makes it WAY harder to do passive damage with hazard but it only blocks hazards which goes to show the power of hazard that we want to ban a whole item that blocks the damage, however that discussion has been done to death so im not going to add anything more to it.

Banning regen as a whole, might not be the way to go, regenerator is still dumb but theres still a lot of team where it is perfectly fine and healthy, it can help balance teams to take a hit or help offense teams to pivot, but just one regen pokemon isnt that broken, the broken-ness comes from where you can stack more than one. As i've said before, the fact that you can heal basically 66% health by switching from one to another regenerator pokemon is unfair. You make making progress much harder and take much longer which can lead to a way more boring meta especially combined with gen 8 additions like boots.

So my proposal for Gen 8 ou is Limit teams to only able to have one pokemon with the Regenerator abilities.

due to how passive the meta can be with it

thanks for reading and
:dp/mew: goodbye
Limiting abilities like this is not something that there is a precedent for, nor do I think it makes the metagame any healthier. Regenerator is a frustrating ability, but it is not a broken ability or even close to the biggest problem in the meta. There are some great offensive threats that take advantage of these passive builds and aren't forced into the same structures. This isn't Zygarde-era SM OU where you are forced into running a Lando-T and Tangrowth on your team to counter this broken mon. There are a lot of very valid team structures and the meta still carries a lot of fun strategies.
 
I used to be very much against actions against HDB and Regen but I think Mimikyu Stardust has a very good point. Even if they aren't unbalanced, they can get frustrating and make the meta more uninteresting, I think a survey would be great once gen 8 turns into last gen meta
 
  • I have heard discussions of individual bans for Torn-T, HDB, or Pex, and a Regen Clause would likely satisfy all of those groups.
  • Regen cores are somewhat restrictive when teambuilding, and limiting them would potentially free up other playstyles. As we have seen with Melmetal, though, "somewhat restrictive" isn't enough for most people on its own.
  • Regen cores are pretty much mandatory to stall teams, and limiting them might make it impossible to build a truly viable stall team.
I agree with a lot of the points made here, but not at all with the conclusion. "Fun" as a concept is highly subjective, and while I hear what you're saying about the majority disliking Regenerator, there's no guarantee that will continue to be the case in the future (and is there even evidence for it now? From what I'm hearing, it sounds like recent surveys don't really corroborate that point). Plus, why would limiting an already limited playstyle be considered healthy for the tier? It's my opinion that, were there no Regenerator at all, it would be simply impossible to build a proper Stall team in an OU context, and even a Regen Clause would cripple them most likely to the point of no return. You said yourself Regen has counterplay, so then why are we even having this discussion? BellySpeed Linoone may be unfun to play against, but it's not unfair, so it's not banned. Double recovery move Chansey is also not very fun to play against in my opinion. It's still legal. At the end of the day, such subjective reasons for a ban or restriction seem very outside the norm and against the competitive nature of Smogon, so I hope that if any action takes place on Regen or HDB, it will be based on more directly competitive reasons.
 
"Fun" as a concept is highly subjective, and while I hear what you're saying about the majority disliking Regenerator, there's no guarantee that will continue to be the case in the future
True, but you can say "people might change their minds later on" for any proposed change. If we try Regen Clause or whatever and it doesn't go well in the eyes of the community, we can just undo it.

(and is there even evidence for it now? From what I'm hearing, it sounds like recent surveys don't really corroborate that point).
My conclusion was for us to go gather that evidence. Before we take anything seriously we need to know how the playerbase feels.

Plus, why would limiting an already limited playstyle be considered healthy for the tier? It's my opinion that, were there no Regenerator at all, it would be simply impossible to build a proper Stall team in an OU context, and even a Regen Clause would cripple them most likely to the point of no return.
True. Which I guess is an intended outcome. I also feel weird about setting a precendent for banning a non-broken playstyle.

You said yourself Regen has counterplay, so then why are we even having this discussion? BellySpeed Linoone may be unfun to play against, but it's not unfair, so it's not banned. Double recovery move Chansey is also not very fun to play against in my opinion. It's still legal.
I guess I'd argue it's a matter of consensus and simplicity. 100 OU players will all have their own specific mons like Linoone that they don't like fighting. Like personally I hate fighting Suicunes, but advocating for its ban wouldn't be a popular idea. But, by trying a survey on Regen Clause, maybe we'll find that the majority of us agree. And hey maybe not. we don't have the data to know something like that yet. Which is why we need a survey.
As for Chansey, I think the practical implementation of nerfing that wouldn't be great since it introduces Pokemon+Move complex bans or would require us to ban transfer moves which would have knock-on effects on a bunch of mons that don't deserve the movepool nerfs. Regenerator is clearly the most influential ability in the tier by a long way, and imo banning it seems too extreme, so maybe Regen Clause would be a good compromise without the need for complex bans (like Pex+Regen or Pex+Torn etc). I'd also argue Chansey/Blissey aren't that bad on their own so even if complex bans were the norm I wouldn't feel the need to restrict them, personally speaking.
 
I feel like the Regen argument is being watered down into somewhat circular points that side-skirt the main arguments. Getting rid of Stall and making the meta more 'fun' are not cases for a Regen clause, however there is a case to be made for Regen clause beyond those non-points that actually holds merit and it's annoying to see it being wiped off the table with 'not even close to the biggest problem with the meta' comments which have at this point been used to debunk literally everything anyone brings up in general and is kind of devolving into not even trying to specify what then actually is the 'biggest problem with the meta'. Arguing non-points with other non-points is a waste of energy.

Regen cores are huge assets to a wide range of teams from BO to Stall, it's absolutely not correct to treat a Regen clause argument as an anti-Stall argument, that's not the case and the replays shared above show a good range of teams that benefit from Regen cores, none of which you can consider Stall.
The two main issues I believe are present with Regen cores are:
1. Teambuilding restriction.
2. Progress control.

The tier is loaded with a good deal of offensive powerhouses, no question, and individual Regen mons have a very wide variety of direct and indirect answers, but this is not a meta where Z-Moves are present and capable of indiscriminately crippling a component of a Regen core after some scouting. There are mons capable of blowing through select Regen cores, but a Regen based team can cover those fairly simply. Example like BroNadus or TornPex gets bent by Koko but can cover that with consistent checks in a generic LandoFerro core. GlowNadus loses to Weav, but a Helmet Ferro and Urshifu covers that too, putting a stop to it. GlowPex gets washed by Lele and EQ, then Corv and Grassy Terrain support patches those. It's not difficult to support your Regen core with hard-stops to the mons that threaten them while reserving your core for the alternative threats on their teams. You're under pressure to not allow your win-con to get chipped in the process of breaking down the defences surrounding the Regen core at risk of losing to the infinite Regen stall endgame likely to ensue otherwise. Building a team with breakers capable of handling all Regen cores is also a smothering ask.

This leads to the matter of breaking them consistently with an average team, barring match-up advantages against some particular cores because you'll never have the match-up vs them all, coming down to applying constant offensive pressure. Outdamaging Regen and applying pressure at all times to make them unable to cover their losses is the most consistent answer. Some can be Toxiced, some can be worn down with Spikes, but others cannot due to their typing, ability, or item, and their ability to cover for each other in playing around those solutions is potent; one misplay or opening allowing them to get one more turn of free Regen off with a member of their core freely resets the cycle, effectively having traded temporary damage for permanent damage. This opens up a host of additional issues in their ability to control the tempo and progress of a battle particularly in the early game. You can punish scout-Regen abuse with doubles and predictions, but you cannot do that in the immediate game before you've assessed your opponent's routines at the risk of spaz-switching your way into bad situations, this is high risk and not a consistent way to play. That said, your opponent putting dead-stops to your early-game progress while opening up their own opportunities to set up Spikes, Knock Off items losing you your method of chip survival or breaking potential, set up FS to maintain the positioning advantage and force high early-game damage against defences, etc. From there on you're on the back foot playing make up. Having a Regen core can and does give you an advantage more often than not vs a team which doesn't. Also a little note about Stall since it keeps getting brought up, a Regen core is capable of forcing a Stall team to a tie by circular switching causing an endless game; keep hazards off or your Boots on and CM Clef Taunted or dead and no amount of Toxic will break you in an end-game situation. It's arguable that Regen cores pose as much of a threat to Stall as an advantage.

Last time I made a comment about Regen cores it got turned into a 'Toxapex is the only close-to-broken Regen mon' discussion. I'll take this chance again to reiterate, since this topic has traction now, that it's not the individual mons where the problem lies, but the leverage they have when used together.
 
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I love all this talk about Regen cause that ability is dumb as shit, but I don’t think a clause is the way to go. If anything, Regen cores are a product of an influx of insanely strong breakers with few checks or counters such as Blacephalon, Melm, Pult, Lele, Shifu, etc. Thus forcing these Regen cores onto teams, otherwise they get folded by their constant pressure. I’d argue that it isn’t difficult to force progress in this tier. From Future Sight, to Knock being broken, and most of the tier’s rockers being able to threaten back defoggers, there are ways to put pressure on these cores.

I don’t think Regen as a whole is the culprit to SS OU’s problems, in fact a Regen clause might be worse for the health of the meta.

I’m leaning towards Pult being potentially suspect worthy but I am still on the fence. So whoever the culprit our problems is, it is probably not gonna be solved with a Regen clause.
 

kosecant

formerly DutroPodoboo
I love all this talk about Regen cause that ability is dumb as shit, but I don’t think a clause is the way to go. If anything, Regen cores are a product of an influx of insanely strong breakers with few checks or counters such as Blacephalon, Melm, Pult, Lele, Shifu, etc. Thus forcing these Regen cores onto teams, otherwise they get folded by their constant pressure. I’d argue that it isn’t difficult to force progress in this tier. From Future Sight, to Knock being broken, and most of the tier’s rockers being able to threaten back defoggers, there are ways to put pressure on these cores.

I don’t think Regen as a whole is the culprit to SS OU’s problems, in fact a Regen clause might be worse for the health of the meta.

I’m leaning towards Pult being potentially suspect worthy but I am still on the fence. So whoever the culprit our problems is, it is probably not gonna be solved with a Regen clause.
Honestly if we didn’t have strong breakers regen spam would be awful to play against. It’s definitely in a broken checks broken state right now, where removing/restricting one would absolutely break the other.
 
I love all this talk about Regen cause that ability is dumb as shit, but I don’t think a clause is the way to go. If anything, Regen cores are a product of an influx of insanely strong breakers with few checks or counters such as Blacephalon, Melm, Pult, Lele, Shifu, etc. Thus forcing these Regen cores onto teams, otherwise they get folded by their constant pressure. I’d argue that it isn’t difficult to force progress in this tier. From Future Sight, to Knock being broken, and most of the tier’s rockers being able to threaten back defoggers, there are ways to put pressure on these cores.

I don’t think Regen as a whole is the culprit to SS OU’s problems, in fact a Regen clause might be worse for the health of the meta.

I’m leaning towards Pult being potentially suspect worthy but I am still on the fence. So whoever the culprit our problems is, it is probably not gonna be solved with a Regen clause.
Definitely agreed, I've pointed this out in my previous posts as well (though I forget if it was in the suspect test or here) and it was the token point of my argument. The regenerator cores themselves have no real solution but to ban the ability or the pokemon posessing the abilitiy ultimately, and in either case I think it's wrong, and perhaps even worse for the meta than what others have claimed regenerator does to it. We have a myriad of strong breakers as you have mentioned, each of which contributes to the problem at hand: regenator cores. It would be difficult, if not nigh impossible to consistently thwart the progress making that Dragapult, Blacephalon, Tapu Lele, Melmetal, Urshifu, and some unnamed others introduce without those regenerator mons in your average team as things currently stand. I will state it the same way I have before, the two keep each other in balance, and it's not a broken checks broken thing either. They are reasonably healthy in the eyes of the grand majority of the involved community, and because the "issue" (if you even wanna call it that, no offense) itself is rooted so deep, we really couldn't touch it even if we wanted to at this point. That being said, there is still one other thing to do if it really is that big of a problem, and it's to target HDB; something that isn't inherently broken in the majority of the community's eyes either and imo has just been a scapegoat for the regenerator situation because we can't deal with it directly. I've explained its benefits as well, those being that we've seen an increase in the viability of certain mons like Volcarona and Dragonite that otherwise reasonably couldn't hold their positioning, and others who happen to still be good this generation and have enjoyed boots too (Tornadus, Zapdos, Koko, Blacephalon, etc.). My posts are still readily available if you need to review my reasoning but I'm short on time so I won't link them here, they were recently posted though so go check them out.
 
Hey all just chiming in with a bulky Garchomp sweeper set:

:Garchomp:
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 172 HP / 20 Atk / 64 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Scale shot
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

172 HP investment gives it 400 total HP, which is divisible by 16 for a leftovers number. Also has enough bulk for its substitute to survive non-Stab uturns from Pokémon with attack as high as bulky landorus. 188 investment cangive it 101 HP subs for blissey if that’s your concern. 20 Atk is enough to KO toxapex at +2. 64 SpD rounds it off, giving it a great matchup against the current all-star SpA crowd, and super importantly, Garchomp can literally break through clefable/fini teams with ease.

even with 252 Atk, at +2, Garchomp only 2HKOs clefable and fini. This bulky set keeps the 2HKO whilst taking much less back. As anybody who’s been swept by a Garchomp would know.. a Garchomp with 50% HP is dangerous. If they have a fast revenger, just take Garchomp out and bring it back in.

Koko can’t KO either, of course, with its paltry base 80 STAB, whilst lele needs a boosting item to OHKO, as the scarf set can’t revenge it if Garchomp is healthy, unless the lele is modest of course.

:clefable:And :Tapu fini: v. :Garchomp:
0 SpA Clefable / Tapu Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 210-248 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:Tapu Koko: v. :Garchomp:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 224-266 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


:Tapu lele: v. :Garchomp:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 332-392 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

rock slide is preferred over scale shot due to being able to reliably hit the entire metagame, and not having to worry about mind games from STABs with immunities, or defense drops sacrificing your bulk.

the lack of scale shot really sucks if you want to sweep faster teams, but what excels a this Garchomp is forcing KOs on bulky Pokémon whilst keeping Garchomp healthy enough to check critical threats like choice locked blacephalon and magma storm heatran.

The substitutes are really bulky and have a chance to survive STAB scalds from almost every defensive Pokémon. Toxapex can’t break it at all.

Unfortunately the slowbro teleport or landorus u turn pivot to triple axel Weavile or infiltrator dragapult sucks, so just keep that in mind against those teams.

get all the benefits of the shitty roseli berry set without any of the cons. And lots more bulk to use this hulk as an offensive/defensive mix.

——

Edit: watched those regenerator replays that were linked. I think the games were won/lost due to other reasons, much more so than regenerator preventing making progress.

stall is annoying for other reasons, like 16 PP soft boiled, super toxapex with haze + recover + regenerator + knock off + toxic + scald and corviknight getting pressure, etc.

fixing stall needs mechanics improved. For example the critical hit chance going up on successive repeated attacks, healing moves healing 40-50% rather than a flat 50%, etc.
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Hey all just chiming in with a bulky Garchomp sweeper set:

:Garchomp:
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 172 HP / 20 Atk / 64 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Scale shot
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

172 HP investment gives it 400 total HP, which is divisible by 16 for a leftovers number. Also has enough bulk for its substitute to survive non-Stab uturns from Pokémon with attack as high as bulky landorus. 188 investment cangive it 101 HP subs for blissey if that’s your concern. 20 Atk is enough to KO toxapex at +2. 64 SpD rounds it off, giving it a great matchup against the current all-star SpA crowd, and super importantly, Garchomp can literally break through clefable/fini teams with ease.

even with 252 Atk, at +2, Garchomp only 2HKOs clefable and fini. This bulky set keeps the 2HKO whilst taking much less back. As anybody who’s been swept by a Garchomp would know.. a Garchomp with 50% HP is dangerous. If they have a fast revenger, just take Garchomp out and bring it back in.

Koko can’t KO either, of course, with its paltry base 80 STAB, whilst lele needs a boosting item to OHKO, as the scarf set can’t revenge it if Garchomp is healthy, unless the lele is modest of course.

:clefable:And :Tapu fini: v. :Garchomp:
0 SpA Clefable / Tapu Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 210-248 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:Tapu Koko: v. :Garchomp:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 224-266 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


:Tapu lele: v. :Garchomp:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 332-392 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

rock slide is preferred over scale shot due to being able to reliably hit the entire metagame, and not having to worry about mind games from STABs with immunities, or defense drops sacrificing your bulk.

the lack of scale shot really sucks if you want to sweep faster teams, but what excels a this Garchomp is forcing KOs on bulky Pokémon whilst keeping Garchomp healthy enough to check critical threats like choice locked blacephalon and magma storm heatran.

The substitutes are really bulky and have a chance to survive STAB scalds from almost every defensive Pokémon. Toxapex can’t break it at all.

Unfortunately the slowbro teleport or landorus u turn pivot to triple axel Weavile or infiltrator dragapult sucks, so just keep that in mind against those teams.

get all the benefits of the shitty roseli berry set without any of the cons. And lots more bulk to use this hulk as an offensive/defensive mix.
This is a really neat idea for Garchomp. As someone who has been on both ends of a Garchomp sweep, as long as this thing has the opportunity to fire off its scales, it's very dangerous. Since you mentioned a bulky set, perhaps it would be a good idea to drop the speed to 224+ which is enough to outspeed Hydreigon. There aren't any notable base 100 speed in the tier anyway and this way, Garchomp'd have 28 more evs to work with
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Zapdos is very notable! Haven’t tried the reduced speed thing due to the need to check zapdos on nearly every team I put Garchomp on, tho would be interested to see your feedback after trying it
Gave it a few tries right now and it's really good so far. I've been trying to find a bulky spread for Garchomp but I never got anything significant. That's how bad I am with the calcs. I suppose Zapdos is a problem but hurricane isn't a guaranteed 2 shot not to mention the rng and of course you can go 240+ speed to outrun it with 12 more evs extra. Personally, I don't really find that a problem since I always use something else to deal with Zapdos. Non spdef Garchomp is really shaky in dealing with it. Do you have a couple replays that shows this Garchomp set doing something?
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Will this thread get locked too? Given that Gen 9 starts tomorrow
Doubt it. Just because a new gen comes around doesn't mean old ones die and it most definitely does not mean people are gonna stop playing it. Someone might come up with an idea that would push the meta forward and they're gonna need some place to post that. Hell it is entirely possible that it could happen as soon as sv drops. Who really knows
 
Since this is the last day, lets have a bit of a nostalgic chat, what´s the most fun you had during this gen ou? me? i once did a 6-0 with mag lead against a HO team because i was running just the right set against them, how about you lads
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Since this is the last day, lets have a bit of a nostalgic chat, what´s the most fun you had during this gen ou? me? i once did a 6-0 with mag lead against a HO team because i was running just the right set against them, how about you lads
It's not a specific moment for me but moreso a time period and that was the time when Spectrier was basically on everyone's face. I love that mon so much. Just click one move and profit. It may have been broken but it was so much fun to use. To this day, ghost horse metagame is still my favorite ss ou metagame
 
It's not a specific moment for me but moreso a time period and that was the time when Spectrier was basically on everyone's face. I love that mon so much. Just click one move and profit. It may have been broken but it was so much fun to use. To this day, ghost horse metagame is still my favorite ss ou metagame
I got pretty high up in the early crown tundra meta with a glare spam Zygarde + specs hex Spect. Though both of them are broken as shit, that team was so fun to use!
 
Local Sandacondactivist here to tell you about the truth.

sandaconda.png
Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Rest

I don't feel like repeating everything I've already said in the vr thread, but Sandaconda is an extremely underrated pick. It's a defensive ground rocker that beats/sits on other common rockers like Heatran, Tankchomp, Lando or Hippo because of it's ability to ignore Toxic and stauts in general, and spreads useful paralysis pretty freely once electrics are gone (although only tomwash and zap can really switch into this as Koko fears eq). It's not as bulky as hippo and has less reliable recovery (although usually clicking rest isn't a problem), but glare is an extremely busted move and it's the biggest reason to consider Sandaconda over other defensive grounds. It pairs well with slow strong breakers like melmetal, volcanion or primarina who all really benefit from para spreading.

For proof of viability, here are replays from tooday's OU Roomtour using a Sandaconda team:
Round 1, round 2, round 3, (used a different team in round 4 for fear of cteam), finals.
If you still need more replays to believe, I have compiled a bunch of them in the VR thread.

In short, don't sleep on conda.

Since this is the last day, lets have a bit of a nostalgic chat, what´s the most fun you had during this gen ou? me? i once did a 6-0 with mag lead against a HO team because i was running just the right set against them, how about you lads
The most fun I had this gen was probably playing the aforementioned Sandaconda team these last 2 weeks, or this Regidrago team, a few months ago. It was funning going through the ladder with unexpected picks and getting to play out a bunch of new situations involving them. AV primarina is also a pick I really enjoyed playing with lately, as both its unexpected resilience and ability to dish out strong hits even without specs both make it very valuable in almost any matchup. Even annoying roadblocks like blissey/chansey and gking can just be flip turned on for momentum. Definitely one of my new favorite OU toys.
 
I only played competitive mons since last summer, but my general favorite Gen 8 OU experience has been using Weavile/Dragapult/Lele teams on repeat. It's just so satisfying to click big buttons in a relatively even-paced metagame. I was also really inspired last year when doublevee got to top 1 with a Mamo DragMag team, since I'd just played a draft league with Mamo. This was before Buzzwole and Volcanion rose to the top, presumably post-Kyurem. I'm glad mons like Moltres-Galar and Blaziken got more recognition this year, as well.

Probably the highest of highlights has been using Pinkacross' Regieleki sun team. I felt like I finally got the hang of weird offense teams when spamming it. s/o Pinkacross, you rule.
 
"Quick Draw and Quick Claw received a 52.3% and 58.1% majority in favor of taking action on Quick Draw and Quick Claw, where only 32.3% and 9.7% called for no action to be taken. Additionally, only 32.2% of both the casual and qualified playerbases had no opinion on the matter. Although QDQC garnered limited public attention through the subforums, it's clear that the majority of the community wanted some form of action taken against it. That said, what prevented this from happening, and how can I push for this to happen now? I don't think something that drew enough attention to be mentioned, debated, and tallied over should be swept under the rug at the end of the generation."
- Per myself
(You can view the thread here).

Quick Draw and Quick Claw never garnered enough attention to have action taken against them, despite being fundamentally uncompetitive, and the majority of the community being in favor of action or undecided. That said, you should not let your pearls fall to swine. Ultimately, this decision will go under the bridge if it isn't addressed openly post-end of the generation, which is no different than just deciding it's good to stay. Quick Draw and Quick Claw are certainly not welcome in OU or any tier because of their inherently uncompetitive nature.

"Yes, but I didn’t get enough support to proceed on it. Technically you can still post in the SS OU subforum on any tiering matters, but it’s likely to be put behind SV matters as a priority."
- Finchinator

I would like to get this out of the way after tirelessly working on a thousand-and-one reasons why both this ability and item need to go for months. We certainly have more pressing challenges with Scarlet and Violet out now, but this needs to be addressed. If this was to finally go after months of waiting, then it would also need looked at in the future for Scarlet and Violet. It would be addressed alongside many of the in-place clauses, such as evasion based items and abilities, or sleep and freeze clause.

So please, consider this and situate it in your priorities as you can. Let's make the push to finally get this thing done. Thank you!
 
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Finchinator

no longer Harry’s house
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
I can't believe that immediately nerfing powerful and beatable offensive options day 2-3 instantly knocked the cap off on the crazy soda and now even more offensive threats need banned. It's almost like every offensive ban just cascades until gens are just consistent, comfortable bulk cores for geriatric OU players centered around 6-8 defensive mons with like 8-10 different offensive flavorings. We are racing to the bottom right now.
This is the SS OU thread, not SV OU, for what it’s worth
 
I would like to get this out of the way after tirelessly working on a thousand-and-one reasons why both this ability and item need to go for months. We certainly have more pressing challenges with Scarlet and Violet out now, but this needs to be addressed. If this was to finally go after months of waiting, then it would also need looked at in the future for Scarlet and Violet. It would be addressed alongside many of the in-place clauses, such as evasion based items and abilities, or sleep and freeze clause.

So please, consider this and situate it in your priorities as you can. Let's make the push to finally get this thing done. Thank you!
agreed. people can debate endlessly over the luck aspects of DIB, Magma, Shadow Ball & Scald "fishing", "crit-me-not" CPSP Mew/Jirachi cheese, etc etc; but when the line between "skill based" and "luck based" is this clear-cut, idk why this was never banned through the whole of gen 8. this tier really doesn't need substantial change imo but the fact that nothing was ever done about the most obvious luck-based item + ability stands out as weird. for the record i feel the same about gen 9, but issues like gholdengo are more immediately pressing issues. i feel like this wouldn't even need a suspect test, it's just a competitiveness change like evasion moves clause
 

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