Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

  • I have heard discussions of individual bans for Torn-T, HDB, or Pex, and a Regen Clause would likely satisfy all of those groups.
  • Regen cores are somewhat restrictive when teambuilding, and limiting them would potentially free up other playstyles. As we have seen with Melmetal, though, "somewhat restrictive" isn't enough for most people on its own.
  • Regen cores are pretty much mandatory to stall teams, and limiting them might make it impossible to build a truly viable stall team.
I agree with a lot of the points made here, but not at all with the conclusion. "Fun" as a concept is highly subjective, and while I hear what you're saying about the majority disliking Regenerator, there's no guarantee that will continue to be the case in the future (and is there even evidence for it now? From what I'm hearing, it sounds like recent surveys don't really corroborate that point). Plus, why would limiting an already limited playstyle be considered healthy for the tier? It's my opinion that, were there no Regenerator at all, it would be simply impossible to build a proper Stall team in an OU context, and even a Regen Clause would cripple them most likely to the point of no return. You said yourself Regen has counterplay, so then why are we even having this discussion? BellySpeed Linoone may be unfun to play against, but it's not unfair, so it's not banned. Double recovery move Chansey is also not very fun to play against in my opinion. It's still legal. At the end of the day, such subjective reasons for a ban or restriction seem very outside the norm and against the competitive nature of Smogon, so I hope that if any action takes place on Regen or HDB, it will be based on more directly competitive reasons.
 
"Fun" as a concept is highly subjective, and while I hear what you're saying about the majority disliking Regenerator, there's no guarantee that will continue to be the case in the future
True, but you can say "people might change their minds later on" for any proposed change. If we try Regen Clause or whatever and it doesn't go well in the eyes of the community, we can just undo it.

(and is there even evidence for it now? From what I'm hearing, it sounds like recent surveys don't really corroborate that point).
My conclusion was for us to go gather that evidence. Before we take anything seriously we need to know how the playerbase feels.

Plus, why would limiting an already limited playstyle be considered healthy for the tier? It's my opinion that, were there no Regenerator at all, it would be simply impossible to build a proper Stall team in an OU context, and even a Regen Clause would cripple them most likely to the point of no return.
True. Which I guess is an intended outcome. I also feel weird about setting a precendent for banning a non-broken playstyle.

You said yourself Regen has counterplay, so then why are we even having this discussion? BellySpeed Linoone may be unfun to play against, but it's not unfair, so it's not banned. Double recovery move Chansey is also not very fun to play against in my opinion. It's still legal.
I guess I'd argue it's a matter of consensus and simplicity. 100 OU players will all have their own specific mons like Linoone that they don't like fighting. Like personally I hate fighting Suicunes, but advocating for its ban wouldn't be a popular idea. But, by trying a survey on Regen Clause, maybe we'll find that the majority of us agree. And hey maybe not. we don't have the data to know something like that yet. Which is why we need a survey.
As for Chansey, I think the practical implementation of nerfing that wouldn't be great since it introduces Pokemon+Move complex bans or would require us to ban transfer moves which would have knock-on effects on a bunch of mons that don't deserve the movepool nerfs. Regenerator is clearly the most influential ability in the tier by a long way, and imo banning it seems too extreme, so maybe Regen Clause would be a good compromise without the need for complex bans (like Pex+Regen or Pex+Torn etc). I'd also argue Chansey/Blissey aren't that bad on their own so even if complex bans were the norm I wouldn't feel the need to restrict them, personally speaking.
 
I feel like the Regen argument is being watered down into somewhat circular points that side-skirt the main arguments. Getting rid of Stall and making the meta more 'fun' are not cases for a Regen clause, however there is a case to be made for Regen clause beyond those non-points that actually holds merit and it's annoying to see it being wiped off the table with 'not even close to the biggest problem with the meta' comments which have at this point been used to debunk literally everything anyone brings up in general and is kind of devolving into not even trying to specify what then actually is the 'biggest problem with the meta'. Arguing non-points with other non-points is a waste of energy.

Regen cores are huge assets to a wide range of teams from BO to Stall, it's absolutely not correct to treat a Regen clause argument as an anti-Stall argument, that's not the case and the replays shared above show a good range of teams that benefit from Regen cores, none of which you can consider Stall.
The two main issues I believe are present with Regen cores are:
1. Teambuilding restriction.
2. Progress control.

The tier is loaded with a good deal of offensive powerhouses, no question, and individual Regen mons have a very wide variety of direct and indirect answers, but this is not a meta where Z-Moves are present and capable of indiscriminately crippling a component of a Regen core after some scouting. There are mons capable of blowing through select Regen cores, but a Regen based team can cover those fairly simply. Example like BroNadus or TornPex gets bent by Koko but can cover that with consistent checks in a generic LandoFerro core. GlowNadus loses to Weav, but a Helmet Ferro and Urshifu covers that too, putting a stop to it. GlowPex gets washed by Lele and EQ, then Corv and Grassy Terrain support patches those. It's not difficult to support your Regen core with hard-stops to the mons that threaten them while reserving your core for the alternative threats on their teams. You're under pressure to not allow your win-con to get chipped in the process of breaking down the defences surrounding the Regen core at risk of losing to the infinite Regen stall endgame likely to ensue otherwise. Building a team with breakers capable of handling all Regen cores is also a smothering ask.

This leads to the matter of breaking them consistently with an average team, barring match-up advantages against some particular cores because you'll never have the match-up vs them all, coming down to applying constant offensive pressure. Outdamaging Regen and applying pressure at all times to make them unable to cover their losses is the most consistent answer. Some can be Toxiced, some can be worn down with Spikes, but others cannot due to their typing, ability, or item, and their ability to cover for each other in playing around those solutions is potent; one misplay or opening allowing them to get one more turn of free Regen off with a member of their core freely resets the cycle, effectively having traded temporary damage for permanent damage. This opens up a host of additional issues in their ability to control the tempo and progress of a battle particularly in the early game. You can punish scout-Regen abuse with doubles and predictions, but you cannot do that in the immediate game before you've assessed your opponent's routines at the risk of spaz-switching your way into bad situations, this is high risk and not a consistent way to play. That said, your opponent putting dead-stops to your early-game progress while opening up their own opportunities to set up Spikes, Knock Off items losing you your method of chip survival or breaking potential, set up FS to maintain the positioning advantage and force high early-game damage against defences, etc. From there on you're on the back foot playing make up. Having a Regen core can and does give you an advantage more often than not vs a team which doesn't. Also a little note about Stall since it keeps getting brought up, a Regen core is capable of forcing a Stall team to a tie by circular switching causing an endless game; keep hazards off or your Boots on and CM Clef Taunted or dead and no amount of Toxic will break you in an end-game situation. It's arguable that Regen cores pose as much of a threat to Stall as an advantage.

Last time I made a comment about Regen cores it got turned into a 'Toxapex is the only close-to-broken Regen mon' discussion. I'll take this chance again to reiterate, since this topic has traction now, that it's not the individual mons where the problem lies, but the leverage they have when used together.
 
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I love all this talk about Regen cause that ability is dumb as shit, but I don’t think a clause is the way to go. If anything, Regen cores are a product of an influx of insanely strong breakers with few checks or counters such as Blacephalon, Melm, Pult, Lele, Shifu, etc. Thus forcing these Regen cores onto teams, otherwise they get folded by their constant pressure. I’d argue that it isn’t difficult to force progress in this tier. From Future Sight, to Knock being broken, and most of the tier’s rockers being able to threaten back defoggers, there are ways to put pressure on these cores.

I don’t think Regen as a whole is the culprit to SS OU’s problems, in fact a Regen clause might be worse for the health of the meta.

I’m leaning towards Pult being potentially suspect worthy but I am still on the fence. So whoever the culprit our problems is, it is probably not gonna be solved with a Regen clause.
 
I love all this talk about Regen cause that ability is dumb as shit, but I don’t think a clause is the way to go. If anything, Regen cores are a product of an influx of insanely strong breakers with few checks or counters such as Blacephalon, Melm, Pult, Lele, Shifu, etc. Thus forcing these Regen cores onto teams, otherwise they get folded by their constant pressure. I’d argue that it isn’t difficult to force progress in this tier. From Future Sight, to Knock being broken, and most of the tier’s rockers being able to threaten back defoggers, there are ways to put pressure on these cores.

I don’t think Regen as a whole is the culprit to SS OU’s problems, in fact a Regen clause might be worse for the health of the meta.

I’m leaning towards Pult being potentially suspect worthy but I am still on the fence. So whoever the culprit our problems is, it is probably not gonna be solved with a Regen clause.
Honestly if we didn’t have strong breakers regen spam would be awful to play against. It’s definitely in a broken checks broken state right now, where removing/restricting one would absolutely break the other.
 
I love all this talk about Regen cause that ability is dumb as shit, but I don’t think a clause is the way to go. If anything, Regen cores are a product of an influx of insanely strong breakers with few checks or counters such as Blacephalon, Melm, Pult, Lele, Shifu, etc. Thus forcing these Regen cores onto teams, otherwise they get folded by their constant pressure. I’d argue that it isn’t difficult to force progress in this tier. From Future Sight, to Knock being broken, and most of the tier’s rockers being able to threaten back defoggers, there are ways to put pressure on these cores.

I don’t think Regen as a whole is the culprit to SS OU’s problems, in fact a Regen clause might be worse for the health of the meta.

I’m leaning towards Pult being potentially suspect worthy but I am still on the fence. So whoever the culprit our problems is, it is probably not gonna be solved with a Regen clause.
Definitely agreed, I've pointed this out in my previous posts as well (though I forget if it was in the suspect test or here) and it was the token point of my argument. The regenerator cores themselves have no real solution but to ban the ability or the pokemon posessing the abilitiy ultimately, and in either case I think it's wrong, and perhaps even worse for the meta than what others have claimed regenerator does to it. We have a myriad of strong breakers as you have mentioned, each of which contributes to the problem at hand: regenator cores. It would be difficult, if not nigh impossible to consistently thwart the progress making that Dragapult, Blacephalon, Tapu Lele, Melmetal, Urshifu, and some unnamed others introduce without those regenerator mons in your average team as things currently stand. I will state it the same way I have before, the two keep each other in balance, and it's not a broken checks broken thing either. They are reasonably healthy in the eyes of the grand majority of the involved community, and because the "issue" (if you even wanna call it that, no offense) itself is rooted so deep, we really couldn't touch it even if we wanted to at this point. That being said, there is still one other thing to do if it really is that big of a problem, and it's to target HDB; something that isn't inherently broken in the majority of the community's eyes either and imo has just been a scapegoat for the regenerator situation because we can't deal with it directly. I've explained its benefits as well, those being that we've seen an increase in the viability of certain mons like Volcarona and Dragonite that otherwise reasonably couldn't hold their positioning, and others who happen to still be good this generation and have enjoyed boots too (Tornadus, Zapdos, Koko, Blacephalon, etc.). My posts are still readily available if you need to review my reasoning but I'm short on time so I won't link them here, they were recently posted though so go check them out.
 
Hey all just chiming in with a bulky Garchomp sweeper set:

:Garchomp:
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 172 HP / 20 Atk / 64 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Scale shot
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

172 HP investment gives it 400 total HP, which is divisible by 16 for a leftovers number. Also has enough bulk for its substitute to survive non-Stab uturns from Pokémon with attack as high as bulky landorus. 188 investment cangive it 101 HP subs for blissey if that’s your concern. 20 Atk is enough to KO toxapex at +2. 64 SpD rounds it off, giving it a great matchup against the current all-star SpA crowd, and super importantly, Garchomp can literally break through clefable/fini teams with ease.

even with 252 Atk, at +2, Garchomp only 2HKOs clefable and fini. This bulky set keeps the 2HKO whilst taking much less back. As anybody who’s been swept by a Garchomp would know.. a Garchomp with 50% HP is dangerous. If they have a fast revenger, just take Garchomp out and bring it back in.

Koko can’t KO either, of course, with its paltry base 80 STAB, whilst lele needs a boosting item to OHKO, as the scarf set can’t revenge it if Garchomp is healthy, unless the lele is modest of course.

:clefable:And :Tapu fini: v. :Garchomp:
0 SpA Clefable / Tapu Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 210-248 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:Tapu Koko: v. :Garchomp:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 224-266 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


:Tapu lele: v. :Garchomp:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 332-392 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

rock slide is preferred over scale shot due to being able to reliably hit the entire metagame, and not having to worry about mind games from STABs with immunities, or defense drops sacrificing your bulk.

the lack of scale shot really sucks if you want to sweep faster teams, but what excels a this Garchomp is forcing KOs on bulky Pokémon whilst keeping Garchomp healthy enough to check critical threats like choice locked blacephalon and magma storm heatran.

The substitutes are really bulky and have a chance to survive STAB scalds from almost every defensive Pokémon. Toxapex can’t break it at all.

Unfortunately the slowbro teleport or landorus u turn pivot to triple axel Weavile or infiltrator dragapult sucks, so just keep that in mind against those teams.

get all the benefits of the shitty roseli berry set without any of the cons. And lots more bulk to use this hulk as an offensive/defensive mix.

——

Edit: watched those regenerator replays that were linked. I think the games were won/lost due to other reasons, much more so than regenerator preventing making progress.

stall is annoying for other reasons, like 16 PP soft boiled, super toxapex with haze + recover + regenerator + knock off + toxic + scald and corviknight getting pressure, etc.

fixing stall needs mechanics improved. For example the critical hit chance going up on successive repeated attacks, healing moves healing 40-50% rather than a flat 50%, etc.
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Hey all just chiming in with a bulky Garchomp sweeper set:

:Garchomp:
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 172 HP / 20 Atk / 64 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Scale shot
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

172 HP investment gives it 400 total HP, which is divisible by 16 for a leftovers number. Also has enough bulk for its substitute to survive non-Stab uturns from Pokémon with attack as high as bulky landorus. 188 investment cangive it 101 HP subs for blissey if that’s your concern. 20 Atk is enough to KO toxapex at +2. 64 SpD rounds it off, giving it a great matchup against the current all-star SpA crowd, and super importantly, Garchomp can literally break through clefable/fini teams with ease.

even with 252 Atk, at +2, Garchomp only 2HKOs clefable and fini. This bulky set keeps the 2HKO whilst taking much less back. As anybody who’s been swept by a Garchomp would know.. a Garchomp with 50% HP is dangerous. If they have a fast revenger, just take Garchomp out and bring it back in.

Koko can’t KO either, of course, with its paltry base 80 STAB, whilst lele needs a boosting item to OHKO, as the scarf set can’t revenge it if Garchomp is healthy, unless the lele is modest of course.

:clefable:And :Tapu fini: v. :Garchomp:
0 SpA Clefable / Tapu Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 210-248 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:Tapu Koko: v. :Garchomp:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 224-266 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


:Tapu lele: v. :Garchomp:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 64 SpD Garchomp: 332-392 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

rock slide is preferred over scale shot due to being able to reliably hit the entire metagame, and not having to worry about mind games from STABs with immunities, or defense drops sacrificing your bulk.

the lack of scale shot really sucks if you want to sweep faster teams, but what excels a this Garchomp is forcing KOs on bulky Pokémon whilst keeping Garchomp healthy enough to check critical threats like choice locked blacephalon and magma storm heatran.

The substitutes are really bulky and have a chance to survive STAB scalds from almost every defensive Pokémon. Toxapex can’t break it at all.

Unfortunately the slowbro teleport or landorus u turn pivot to triple axel Weavile or infiltrator dragapult sucks, so just keep that in mind against those teams.

get all the benefits of the shitty roseli berry set without any of the cons. And lots more bulk to use this hulk as an offensive/defensive mix.
This is a really neat idea for Garchomp. As someone who has been on both ends of a Garchomp sweep, as long as this thing has the opportunity to fire off its scales, it's very dangerous. Since you mentioned a bulky set, perhaps it would be a good idea to drop the speed to 224+ which is enough to outspeed Hydreigon. There aren't any notable base 100 speed in the tier anyway and this way, Garchomp'd have 28 more evs to work with
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Zapdos is very notable! Haven’t tried the reduced speed thing due to the need to check zapdos on nearly every team I put Garchomp on, tho would be interested to see your feedback after trying it
Gave it a few tries right now and it's really good so far. I've been trying to find a bulky spread for Garchomp but I never got anything significant. That's how bad I am with the calcs. I suppose Zapdos is a problem but hurricane isn't a guaranteed 2 shot not to mention the rng and of course you can go 240+ speed to outrun it with 12 more evs extra. Personally, I don't really find that a problem since I always use something else to deal with Zapdos. Non spdef Garchomp is really shaky in dealing with it. Do you have a couple replays that shows this Garchomp set doing something?
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Will this thread get locked too? Given that Gen 9 starts tomorrow
Doubt it. Just because a new gen comes around doesn't mean old ones die and it most definitely does not mean people are gonna stop playing it. Someone might come up with an idea that would push the meta forward and they're gonna need some place to post that. Hell it is entirely possible that it could happen as soon as sv drops. Who really knows
 

1LDK

I'm exhausted
is a Top Team Rater
Since this is the last day, lets have a bit of a nostalgic chat, what´s the most fun you had during this gen ou? me? i once did a 6-0 with mag lead against a HO team because i was running just the right set against them, how about you lads
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Since this is the last day, lets have a bit of a nostalgic chat, what´s the most fun you had during this gen ou? me? i once did a 6-0 with mag lead against a HO team because i was running just the right set against them, how about you lads
It's not a specific moment for me but moreso a time period and that was the time when Spectrier was basically on everyone's face. I love that mon so much. Just click one move and profit. It may have been broken but it was so much fun to use. To this day, ghost horse metagame is still my favorite ss ou metagame
 
It's not a specific moment for me but moreso a time period and that was the time when Spectrier was basically on everyone's face. I love that mon so much. Just click one move and profit. It may have been broken but it was so much fun to use. To this day, ghost horse metagame is still my favorite ss ou metagame
I got pretty high up in the early crown tundra meta with a glare spam Zygarde + specs hex Spect. Though both of them are broken as shit, that team was so fun to use!
 
Local Sandacondactivist here to tell you about the truth.

sandaconda.png
Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Rest

I don't feel like repeating everything I've already said in the vr thread, but Sandaconda is an extremely underrated pick. It's a defensive ground rocker that beats/sits on other common rockers like Heatran, Tankchomp, Lando or Hippo because of it's ability to ignore Toxic and stauts in general, and spreads useful paralysis pretty freely once electrics are gone (although only tomwash and zap can really switch into this as Koko fears eq). It's not as bulky as hippo and has less reliable recovery (although usually clicking rest isn't a problem), but glare is an extremely busted move and it's the biggest reason to consider Sandaconda over other defensive grounds. It pairs well with slow strong breakers like melmetal, volcanion or primarina who all really benefit from para spreading.

For proof of viability, here are replays from tooday's OU Roomtour using a Sandaconda team:
Round 1, round 2, round 3, (used a different team in round 4 for fear of cteam), finals.
If you still need more replays to believe, I have compiled a bunch of them in the VR thread.

In short, don't sleep on conda.

Since this is the last day, lets have a bit of a nostalgic chat, what´s the most fun you had during this gen ou? me? i once did a 6-0 with mag lead against a HO team because i was running just the right set against them, how about you lads
The most fun I had this gen was probably playing the aforementioned Sandaconda team these last 2 weeks, or this Regidrago team, a few months ago. It was funning going through the ladder with unexpected picks and getting to play out a bunch of new situations involving them. AV primarina is also a pick I really enjoyed playing with lately, as both its unexpected resilience and ability to dish out strong hits even without specs both make it very valuable in almost any matchup. Even annoying roadblocks like blissey/chansey and gking can just be flip turned on for momentum. Definitely one of my new favorite OU toys.
 
I only played competitive mons since last summer, but my general favorite Gen 8 OU experience has been using Weavile/Dragapult/Lele teams on repeat. It's just so satisfying to click big buttons in a relatively even-paced metagame. I was also really inspired last year when doublevee got to top 1 with a Mamo DragMag team, since I'd just played a draft league with Mamo. This was before Buzzwole and Volcanion rose to the top, presumably post-Kyurem. I'm glad mons like Moltres-Galar and Blaziken got more recognition this year, as well.

Probably the highest of highlights has been using Pinkacross' Regieleki sun team. I felt like I finally got the hang of weird offense teams when spamming it. s/o Pinkacross, you rule.
 
"Quick Draw and Quick Claw received a 52.3% and 58.1% majority in favor of taking action on Quick Draw and Quick Claw, where only 32.3% and 9.7% called for no action to be taken. Additionally, only 32.2% of both the casual and qualified playerbases had no opinion on the matter. Although QDQC garnered limited public attention through the subforums, it's clear that the majority of the community wanted some form of action taken against it. That said, what prevented this from happening, and how can I push for this to happen now? I don't think something that drew enough attention to be mentioned, debated, and tallied over should be swept under the rug at the end of the generation."
- Per myself
(You can view the thread here).

Quick Draw and Quick Claw never garnered enough attention to have action taken against them, despite being fundamentally uncompetitive, and the majority of the community being in favor of action or undecided. That said, you should not let your pearls fall to swine. Ultimately, this decision will go under the bridge if it isn't addressed openly post-end of the generation, which is no different than just deciding it's good to stay. Quick Draw and Quick Claw are certainly not welcome in OU or any tier because of their inherently uncompetitive nature.

"Yes, but I didn’t get enough support to proceed on it. Technically you can still post in the SS OU subforum on any tiering matters, but it’s likely to be put behind SV matters as a priority."
- Finchinator

I would like to get this out of the way after tirelessly working on a thousand-and-one reasons why both this ability and item need to go for months. We certainly have more pressing challenges with Scarlet and Violet out now, but this needs to be addressed. If this was to finally go after months of waiting, then it would also need looked at in the future for Scarlet and Violet. It would be addressed alongside many of the in-place clauses, such as evasion based items and abilities, or sleep and freeze clause.

So please, consider this and situate it in your priorities as you can. Let's make the push to finally get this thing done. Thank you!
 
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Finchinator

-OUTL
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OU Leader
I can't believe that immediately nerfing powerful and beatable offensive options day 2-3 instantly knocked the cap off on the crazy soda and now even more offensive threats need banned. It's almost like every offensive ban just cascades until gens are just consistent, comfortable bulk cores for geriatric OU players centered around 6-8 defensive mons with like 8-10 different offensive flavorings. We are racing to the bottom right now.
This is the SS OU thread, not SV OU, for what it’s worth
 
I would like to get this out of the way after tirelessly working on a thousand-and-one reasons why both this ability and item need to go for months. We certainly have more pressing challenges with Scarlet and Violet out now, but this needs to be addressed. If this was to finally go after months of waiting, then it would also need looked at in the future for Scarlet and Violet. It would be addressed alongside many of the in-place clauses, such as evasion based items and abilities, or sleep and freeze clause.

So please, consider this and situate it in your priorities as you can. Let's make the push to finally get this thing done. Thank you!
agreed. people can debate endlessly over the luck aspects of DIB, Magma, Shadow Ball & Scald "fishing", "crit-me-not" CPSP Mew/Jirachi cheese, etc etc; but when the line between "skill based" and "luck based" is this clear-cut, idk why this was never banned through the whole of gen 8. this tier really doesn't need substantial change imo but the fact that nothing was ever done about the most obvious luck-based item + ability stands out as weird. for the record i feel the same about gen 9, but issues like gholdengo are more immediately pressing issues. i feel like this wouldn't even need a suspect test, it's just a competitiveness change like evasion moves clause
 

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