Announcement The UnderUsed Classic V

[Estarossa]

thank you to HotFuzzBall for the banner!

Host: Estarossa​

Welcome, Smogon, to the fifth UU Classic! This is part of our official UU Tour Circuit where you can test your mettle against the top players in the community. The UnderUsed Classic is a chance to celebrate the history of the UnderUsed tier through the generations. Participants will compete in separate, single elimination UU tournaments for the USM, ORAS, BW, DPP, ADV, and GSC generations, culminating in playoffs and finals. Additionally, players who make playoffs will be awarded points that will count towards the UU Tour circuit of 2021.

This tournament format should be familiar to anyone who has participated in Smogon's Grand Slam or Classic tournaments. The format consists of six separate tournaments: the USM UU Cup, the ORAS UU Cup, the BW UU Cup, the DPP UU Cup, the ADV UU Cup, and the GSC UU Cup. Each participant will earn points for how far they advance in each cup, following a similar point system used in Grand Slam and other tours (see here for more details), but 2 points will be given out for round 3 onwards instead of round 4. When all six cups have been completed, the top 16 players with the most points will advance to the playoffs. There they will compete in a best-of-five series consisting of a combination involving whichever generations they counterpick until we have an undisputed Smogon UnderUsed Classic Champion.

Signups for the first Cup go up on June 27, 2021, with dates staggered by a week:

GSC UU Cup - Hosted by Reeece - 27th June 2021
ADV UU Cup - Hosted by Maple - 27th June 2021
DPP UU Cup - Hosted by Estarossa - 4th July 2021
BW UU Cup - Hosted by LNumbers - 4th July 2021
ORAS UU Cup - Hosted by Highways - 11th July 2021
SM UU Cup - Hosted by Juno - 11th July 2021

Spreadsheet Link

If you have any questions or concerns about the format or predictions about the tour, please post them here. Initially, playoffs will be top 16 players, but that's subject to changes depending on the number of signups.​

 

[scorbunnys]

Let's try!
Give me USM :)
Edit: USM is taken so lets try w ORAS

 

[BigFatMantis]

I can host one of the July 4 start date cups if you need hosts, but if someone else wants to do them that's fine also.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I ask for Walrein or Snow Warning to be banned for DPP UU cup. It’s not an official tiering decision, just for this tournament which is why it doesn’t matter to me whether we do a regular ban (ban Walrein) or complex (ban ability, Snow Warning).

The reasoning would be that Walrein with Protect and Substitute and Ice Body in permahail is both overpowered and uncompetitive.

Figured I’d ask here...no high expectations but thanks for your consideration.

 

[esche]

As much as it pains me to point out, Walrein is not classically uncompetitive. The strategies it revolves around (SubProTox/ SubRoar/ SubEncore) aren't chance based. These sets are obnoxious to face but they are predictable and there are readily available, viable countermeasures (CurseTalk Registeel, Refresh Milotic, Calm Mind Clefable). It's not even comparable to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag either where the opponent is bereft of the most basic form of counter play - switching out. Such a restriction is not placed upon the opponent here. However, if set up correctly, Walrein gets a minimum of 32 turns dealing 6% of damage every turn to the opposition via hail without risk of losing any HP itself. In theory, this accumulates to 200% or two full health bars worth of "free damage" to the opposing team but, realistically, this damage number varies quite a lot. Thanks to Substitute, Walrein gets opportunities where it can throw out attacks while the oppononent is preoccupied with breaking the Substitute. This is often enough to slowly whittle down Pokémon with Leftovers that effectively take no damage from hail. Add to all this the variables of ice resists, toxic immunities and hazards already on the field and evidently you have a whole lot to account for when trying to precisely pin down the arguably broken element of Walrein. Walrein hail stall is certainly powerful but at its core it remains a matchup fish. Many offensively inclined teams without solid defensive backbones to rely on often simply get farmed by Walrein once it's set up and that can be frustrating. These teams will forgo their hail matchup and instead try to limit the opportunities Walrein gets in the first place - frequently to no avail. This is a conscious decision, however, and not un-combatable in the builder or during the game. In the end, we might deem Walrein's abilities overpowered (which can be reason enough to hold a vote on it) but I don't think the term "uncompetitive" quite fits it.

Anyhow, I would like to focus on another element now: Sand Veil



Sand in DPP UU is a strategy that exhibits plenty of uncompetitiveness. Sand Veil is utterly chance based with no reliable counter play available whatsoever. Big shoutout at this point to the virtuous great white Ark, who didn't hesitate to state a painful example of this in our week 1 game of DPPPL. Frankly, it's ridiculous we let this slide for so long and with the tier lock for old generations having recently been lifted, I don't see any good reason to not go ahead with an outright ban. Sand Veil in perma sand has eluded the Evasion Clause for far too long and it's time we erase it for good.

Either ban Sand Stream in its entirety or ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil (of which I favour the former).

Now, there is a discussion to be had about Snow Warning/Walrein too and while, personally, I believe perma weather has no place in DPP UU and that both Sand Stream and Snow Waring should be banned, I don't think it's as clear-cut a case as with the situation of Sand Veil in permanent sand for which there is simply no reasonable argument for keeping around.

In the same vein, please officially ban Baton Pass from ADV UU already. It's blatantly overpowered, uncompetitive and adds nothing of value to the tier.

We can set an example and remove these undesirable elements from this iteration of UU Classic preemptively to create a healthier, more enjoyable playing experience. The games played in this years UU Classic can be the foundation of moving in the right direction with the tiers in question.

Thank you for reading.

 

[pokemonisfun]

As much as it pains me to point out, Walrein is not classically uncompetitive. The strategies it revolves around (SubProTox/ SubRoar/ SubEncore) aren't chance based. These sets are obnoxious to face but they are predictable and there are readily available, viable countermeasures (CurseTalk Registeel, Refresh Milotic, Calm Mind Clefable). It's not even comparable to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag either where the opponent is bereft of the most basic form of counter play - switching out. Such a restriction is not placed upon the opponent here. However, if set up correctly, Walrein gets a minimum of 32 turns dealing 6% of damage every turn to the opposition via hail without risk of losing any HP itself. In theory, this accumulates to 200% or two full health bars worth of "free damage" to the opposing team but, realistically, this damage number varies quite a lot. Thanks to Substitute, Walrein gets opportunities where it can throw out attacks while the oppononent is preoccupied with breaking the Substitute. This is often enough to slowly whittle down Pokémon with Leftovers that effectively take no damage from hail. Add to all this the variables of ice resists, toxic immunities and hazards already on the field and evidently you have a whole lot to account for when trying to precisely pin down the arguably broken element of Walrein. Walrein hail stall is certainly powerful but at its core it remains a matchup fish. Many offensively inclined teams without solid defensive backbones to rely on often simply get farmed by Walrein once it's set up and that can be frustrating. These teams will forgo their hail matchup and instead try to limit the opportunities Walrein gets in the first place - frequently to no avail. This is a conscious decision, however, and not un-combatable in the builder or during the game. In the end, we might deem Walrein's abilities overpowered (which can be reason enough to hold a vote on it) but I don't think the term "uncompetitive" quite fits it.

Anyhow, I would like to focus on another element now: Sand Veil



Sand in DPP UU is a strategy that exhibits plenty of uncompetitiveness. Sand Veil is utterly chance based with no reliable counter play available whatsoever. Big shoutout at this point to the virtuous great white Ark, who didn't hesitate to state a painful example of this in our week 1 game of DPPPL. Frankly, it's ridiculous we let this slide for so long and with the tier lock for old generations having recently been lifted, I don't see any good reason to not go ahead with an outright ban. Sand Veil in perma sand has eluded the Evasion Clause for far too long and it's time we erase it for good.

Either ban Sand Stream in its entirety or ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil (of which I favour the former).

Now, there is a discussion to be had about Snow Warning/Walrein too and while, personally, I believe perma weather has no place in DPP UU and that both Sand Stream and Snow Waring should be banned, I don't think it's as clear-cut a case as with the situation of Sand Veil in permanent sand for which there is simply no reasonable argument for keeping around.

In the same vein, please officially ban Baton Pass from ADV UU already. It's blatantly overpowered, uncompetitive and adds nothing of value to the tier.

We can set an example and remove these undesirable elements from this iteration of UU Classic preemptively to create a healthier, more enjoyable playing experience. The games played in this years UU Classic can be the foundation of moving in the right direction with the tiers in question.

Thank you for reading.

You convinced me!

 

[dhelmise]

can i host oras or bw :pleading:

 

[Fathiryxi]

Let's try!
Give me USM :)
Edit: USM is taken so lets try w ORAS

I’d like to try too
Can i host dpp or oras ?

 

[Estarossa]

Hey guys, thank you everyone who applied to host here and over Discord! We have selected all the hosts for Classic this year, but there is a fairly important announcement to make regarding the cups as well.

Announcement: Due to the unfortunate Quagsire situation in SM UU currently, the cups are now going to be held in reverse order to give adequate time for this situation to be dealt with before SM Cup starts. The updated dates and hosts for these cups are as follows:

GSC UU Cup - Hosted by Reeece - 27th June 2021
ADV UU Cup - Hosted by Maple - 27th June 2021
DPP UU Cup - Hosted by Estarossa - 4th July 2021
BW UU Cup - Hosted by LNumbers - 4th July 2021
ORAS UU Cup - Hosted by Highways - 11th July 2021
SM UU Cup - Hosted by Juno - 11th July 2021

Expect the first Cup signups to go out tomorrow! Gl to everyone taking part.

 

[Estarossa]

Signups for the first two cups are open!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-uu-cup-v-uu-classic-v-signups.3686758/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-uu-cup-v-uu-classic-v-signups.3686759/

For reference, (this will also be included in each of the signups OPs), the cups will be following the current PS implementations for the Baton Pass rules in eachcup. This means that Baton Pass is banned from the ADV UU Cup.

 

[Estarossa]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-uu-cup-v-uu-classic-v.3687183/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bw-uu-cup-v-uu-classic-v-signups.3687196/

Signups for next two cups are open! For clarity, as in the previous post we will be following PS implementations for Baton Pass rules, this means that in both DPP and BW UU Cups, Baton Pass is limited to one Pokemon which cannot pass Speed alongside another stat boost.

Due to following PS implementations, Hail and Sand will not be banned for the DPP cup, as the PR thread is still ongoing discussing these topics.

 

[Estarossa]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-uu-cup-iv-uu-classic-v-signups.3687517/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-uu-cup-ii-uu-classic-v-signups.3687509/

Signups for the final two cups are open!

 

[cherryb0ng]

I can host one of the July 4 start date cups if you need hosts, but if someone else wants to do them that's fine also.

Lol. How American.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Honestly just spitballing and I apologize if you think I’m being too cavalier - but how about we include RBY in the playoffs? I understand it’s not a cup but a few points:

1) most people who qualify for PO don’t play all the cups anyways
2) RBY was just rejected in UUWC so it’s at pretty much 0 subforum tour representation
3) RBY is only an option, you’re not forcing any match to play it, in theory you’re only getting people to play if 1 person actively chooses it which can lead to a higher quality game

just a suggestion!

 

[Expulso]

i made a sheet for this
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fAZDdgz3EwH8wFQPztEI8YKcNgD-kc_gpg36_ORH3Sk/edit?usp=sharing

gl all

 

[pokemonisfun]

Honestly just spitballing and I apologize if you think I’m being too cavalier - but how about we include RBY in the playoffs? I understand it’s not a cup but a few points:

1) most people who qualify for PO don’t play all the cups anyways
2) RBY was just rejected in UUWC so it’s at pretty much 0 subforum tour representation
3) RBY is only an option, you’re not forcing any match to play it, in theory you’re only getting people to play if 1 person actively chooses it which can lead to a higher quality game

just a suggestion!

So this is a no then...

 

[Estarossa]

So this is a no then...

Yea this is a no go, i'll go over some obvious counter-points to what you suggested in the original post.

Honestly just spitballing and I apologize if you think I’m being too cavalier - but how about we include RBY in the playoffs? I understand it’s not a cup but a few points:

1) most people who qualify for PO don’t play all the cups anyways So this was something we had to actually check when breaking the ties for 8/16 slots for seeding because it effects the win % of these players if they didn't play all 6 cups. Out of these people, only 2 people didn't play all cups, with 1 and 2 cups missed by them respectively. While we didn't check this for players who didn't tie points wise, if you look at the points distributions you'll see that not only did they play them, most of the people in Playoffs got at least one win in at least 4-5 of their cups too.
2) RBY was just rejected in UUWC so it’s at pretty much 0 subforum tour representation Atm it has been included in UUFPL, so its not been totally 0 subforum representation. Its rejection in UUWC in part revolved around the difficulty in drafting individuals for certain regions for the tier, with it being much more suited to a Drafting based format such as UUPL or the new Dutch tour later this year. While I'd be interested to see it included in some of our team tours down the line, it would be ludicrous to include it in Classic playoffs with 0 warning, expecting people to pick up a tier they've had 0 involvement in or even played, with no chance to learn it in advance at all. RBY's involvement in a subforum tour absolutely needs to involve some fair warning, and leads on to the next point you make really.
3) RBY is only an option, you’re not forcing any match to play it, in theory you’re only getting people to play if 1 person actively chooses it which can lead to a higher quality game This is a bit of a logical fallacy. You can pretty safely assume that in most cases atm that the 1 person who actively chooses it is the only one who plays it in these matchups; this isn't going to lead to a higher quality game but more than likely a completely one-sided matchup between someone who plays the tier and who doesn't.

just a suggestion!

So yea basically - RBY UU has had no official involvement in Classic so far, players would have had 0 warning of its inclusion in playoffs and 0 chance to prepare for it by practicing and learning the tier. Any potential matchups where it gets picked will likely be completely one-sided low quality games that will go against the goal of a high quality playoffs by awarding an unfairly farmable win to the few people with knowledge of the tier.

Its important to note that RBY is not a very easy gen to just pick up with 0 knowledge of the tier, there's a lot of intricacies involved in play around mechanics like Wrap and positioning with your various threats, the chances of someone winning back in these scenarios would seemingly hinge fairly heavily on the RNG-heavy nature of the tier that has lead to it being played in BO3 formats in most serious tours (including team tours), eg. getting the necessary freezes in the tenta 1v1s, timely duggy crits etc. The better player in these scenarios will be positioning to get more opportunities for these scenarios, but none-the-less this would default to these RBY UU player vs non RBY UU player matchups coming down to either being a stomp or a lucky upset.

None of this necessary excludes RBY from being in a future classic - though that is not my decision to make. What it does mean though is that if it were to be included in classic, it would have to be a future year and with enough notice for people to actually have time to get involved with it.