Not asking for a rise or a fall, but im just wondering why fini has risen so much lately
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Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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I just wanted to say that while i am all in for an
rise (I've actually used it quite a bit) I wanted to say that ho screen teams benefit far more from koko and grimm support than alolatales. They can both keep rocks off your own side, to help with rock weak ho mons like cloy, and while they can't set screens in one turn, alolatales actually tends to struggle getting veil up, because it lacks koko's speed tier or grimm's ability, struggling against scizor/scarf kart, lele counterleads. While encore and hypnosis are nice, grimms movepool far outclasses it, and koko can provide invaluable terrain support for the likes of lucha and blaze. Not keeping rocks off the field also means alolatales will be taking 25% every time its switched in, meaning it can't come in as often as other screen setters. Since taunt is such a good move to have on ho leads, the only situation I find myself preferring alolatales is in fact to enable zolt, or when hail support is necessary to secure ko's (although then why wouldn't you just run hazards).
to B-What is this thing doing in the C ranks. Its got great attack and a strong speed tier, with an amazing stab combo. Whats great about this mon is it only really needs two moves, the rest is customizable to fit your team. Both swords dance and choice band are strong options, with band being able to hit everything hard and swords dance making it a potent sweeper against defensive/balance teams.
to C-/URI assume this is ranked because it compresses rocks and webs into one slot, if so, that's not a good enough reason. Its deadweight aside from that, and webs are terrible as a playstyle rn. Considering it isn't even the best setter, I think it should be unranked, though I understand if it needs to stay on the vr since it has a tiny niche.
Checks many pokemon like urshifu-r, weavile, dragapult, heatran. misty surge is such a great ability to prevent status to allow stuff like weavile to set up on slowbro, without risking a scald burn. Misty surge also allows you to play around dragault easier since its dragon moves are halved in base power making it much easier to pivot into dragapult, garchomp, and kyurem. Also it is a great scarfer with trick to cripple many pokemon that are common switch ins such as toxapex, ferrothorn, slowking, and clefable
If you get rocks up (easy assuming they have to set up weather with Ninetales...Or idk, Vanilluxe), Rillaboom kills after Rocks for example
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt in Grassy Terrain: 261-307 (81.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Ig you can argue the hdb, but wouldn't that make it too weak? Also doesn't Ferrothorn with either BP o GB 1v1? I know you can switch up to Swampert but hails makes lefties not stopping cheap damage, but doesn't for example Kyurem destroy both of them with a Draco Meteor? And this is all assuming you are easily switching a mon with (on the assumption you're using boots so no rocks):
- No recovery move
- No inmunities
- Weak to fire, fighting and ground, resisting only Flying, electric and ice itself
Idk, but on paper and practice I haven't found any problem vs Hail on the ladder. Maybe I'm just not seeing something
HDB doesn't make it too weak. Bolt Beak is just naturally that good, and I prefer Boots over Life Orb for the exact reasons you mentioned above; every bit of chip damage you can prevent is crucial for Arctozolt to put in work. Alolatale's Veil support helps in that regard as well.
Also, bear in mind that nobody's asking Zolt to 6-0 every game; it will struggle with Ferrothorn and Swampert etc. but it's up to the teammates to handle those. And it can slot Low Kick and Freeze-Dry to snipe those two specific pokemon once they're weakened.
My personal favorite set is Adamant HDB 252/252 with Bolt Beak/Icicle Crash/Low Kick/Substitute. Sub really helps Zolt out, it can save you against a priority move and makes it harder for opponents to stall out Hail turns.
I'll try your set and Hail to see if you're then :D
see: swap in
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 164-192 (48 - 56.3%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after hail damage and Grassy Terrain recovery
as for ferro:
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 113-134 (32.1 - 38%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
chonky damage :)
but yeah, it's certainly not unbeateable or anything- I'm just supporting it moving up from it's place in C, to C+ or B- or something (maybe more!) where it would be on par with stuff like Moltres-G and Zap-G and Zarude and Latios etc etc
As someone who's played with hail for a bit, I am partial to rising Arctozolt to C+.
Arctozolt may need a few requisites filled against Ferrothorn, its horrendous defensive typing provides minimal utility for teams, and its reliance on Hail is incredibly demanding. However, its near unopposed dual STAB combination in tandem with Bolt Beak's insane natural power makes it a very potent win condition that spearheads the use of Hail teams.
Something that hasn't been mentioned much is it exploits the meteoric rise in Tapu Fini offenses and Hippowdon balances that attempt to check Weavile and Dragapult. Without strong priority, Ferrothorn, or a healthy Buzzwole, it can be a headache to revenge kill for these kinds of teams, especially given that it overwhelms them so effectively as it is. Even then, without Ferrothorn it is comically hard to switch into; common walls in Skarmory, Corviknight, and Hippowdon crumble to its STAB combination, and while Swampert can easily be overwhelmed due to a lack of longevity, Gastrodon loses to Icicle Crash into Freeze-Dry.
The key to making it succeed, in my opinion, is to pair it with offensive pivots like Dragapult that can help it overload shared checks in Ferrothorn and Gastrodon while giving it breaking opportunities against Pokemon like Mandibuzz or Corviknight. In fact, much like several other offensive Pokemon in the tier, it needs to be enabled. In Arctozolt's case specifically, it generally cannot find its own opportunities due to its horrendous defensive typing and mediocre bulk; however, with pivoting and other forms of offensive support like Spikes, it has a pretty great niche that it can fulfill on Hail offenses. I don't think Arctozolt is a Pokemon that is metagame warping in any capacity, but it definitely deserves a rise in my opinion.
Alolan Ninetales on the other hand I think is fine where it is. Its current ranking reflects its mediocrity as Screens setter, though the niche that puts it next to Grimmsnarl is that it is Arctozolt's best Hail-setting ally. Having it in C+ with Arctozolt I think is completely justifiable especially given that they are always run together, too.
Arctozolt may need a few requisites filled against Ferrothorn, its horrendous defensive typing provides minimal utility for teams, and its reliance on Hail is incredibly demanding. However, its near unopposed dual STAB combination in tandem with Bolt Beak's insane natural power makes it a very potent win condition that spearheads the use of Hail teams.
Something that hasn't been mentioned much is it exploits the meteoric rise in Tapu Fini offenses and Hippowdon balances that attempt to check Weavile and Dragapult. Without strong priority, Ferrothorn, or a healthy Buzzwole, it can be a headache to revenge kill for these kinds of teams, especially given that it overwhelms them so effectively as it is. Even then, without Ferrothorn it is comically hard to switch into; common walls in Skarmory, Corviknight, and Hippowdon crumble to its STAB combination, and while Swampert can easily be overwhelmed due to a lack of longevity, Gastrodon loses to Icicle Crash into Freeze-Dry.
The key to making it succeed, in my opinion, is to pair it with offensive pivots like Dragapult that can help it overload shared checks in Ferrothorn and Gastrodon while giving it breaking opportunities against Pokemon like Mandibuzz or Corviknight. In fact, much like several other offensive Pokemon in the tier, it needs to be enabled. In Arctozolt's case specifically, it generally cannot find its own opportunities due to its horrendous defensive typing and mediocre bulk; however, with pivoting and other forms of offensive support like Spikes, it has a pretty great niche that it can fulfill on Hail offenses. I don't think Arctozolt is a Pokemon that is metagame warping in any capacity, but it definitely deserves a rise in my opinion.
Alolan Ninetales on the other hand I think is fine where it is. Its current ranking reflects its mediocrity as Screens setter, though the niche that puts it next to Grimmsnarl is that it is Arctozolt's best Hail-setting ally. Having it in C+ with Arctozolt I think is completely justifiable especially given that they are always run together, too.
getting off the actrozolt debate because I have never used a hail team,
Toxtricity C -> C-/UR
This exists?
seriously though, its meager
0.65552% usage doesn't seem like something ranked on the VR, when pokemon with higher usage precentages like polteagist aren't ranked. its only good stat is SPA, it can only raise its speed well, and its good ability is scammed by the fact that it doesn't get STAB in boomburst. It may be able to be in C- tho due to the niche of easily setting up on stall mons with immunity to toxic AND thunderwave making it good glue against stall. Also, I might expiriment with physical sets because shift gear does RAISE attack but not greatly.
edit: on second thought, unrank this, xatu is better at toxitricity's fringe use of stall glue, holdiing the same stall glue nice toxi has, but with the added bonus of:
-Not getting leech seeded by ferrothorn
-Switching into blissey's toxic/thunderwave, bouncing it, and crippling blissey
-Crippling ferro by bouncing its thunderwave
-Bouncing away rocks from lando-T/Chomp
-Bouncing away webs but thats a dead archetype lmao
-TAUNT IMMUNITY
Toxtricity C -> C-/UR
This exists?
seriously though, its meager
0.65552% usage doesn't seem like something ranked on the VR, when pokemon with higher usage precentages like polteagist aren't ranked. its only good stat is SPA, it can only raise its speed well, and its good ability is scammed by the fact that it doesn't get STAB in boomburst. It may be able to be in C- tho due to the niche of easily setting up on stall mons with immunity to toxic AND thunderwave making it good glue against stall. Also, I might expiriment with physical sets because shift gear does RAISE attack but not greatly.
edit: on second thought, unrank this, xatu is better at toxitricity's fringe use of stall glue, holdiing the same stall glue nice toxi has, but with the added bonus of:
-Not getting leech seeded by ferrothorn
-Switching into blissey's toxic/thunderwave, bouncing it, and crippling blissey
-Crippling ferro by bouncing its thunderwave
-Bouncing away rocks from lando-T/Chomp
-Bouncing away webs but thats a dead archetype lmao
-TAUNT IMMUNITY
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Toxtricity C -> C-/UR
I don't care much about the vagaries of the current OU VR. Especially in a youngish metagame, the VR can be very trend dependent, and also whether something is say a B vs B+ or A- vs A rank pokemon isn't very important to me.
In my opinion, almost everything in C+ or above (maybe C and above if you want to be generous) has at least one specific viable niche in the tier (they vary wildly in ranking based on how common and widely applicable that niche is), and when building a team it's obviously better to pick pokemon based on whether they fulfill a specific role which your team requires, instead of blindly selecting the highest ranked pokemon.
The above intro is basically to say that I don't really care much about promoting/demoting a pokemon's rank a few spaces, so if you want to demote toxtricity to C-, then so be it, but I do care about unranking a pokemon which does have a niche. And so I strongly think toxtricity should not be unranked.
The thing which justifies toxtricity's very small space within the tier is the specs set, probably modest, which is an extremely potent wallbreaker. Boomburst/Sludge Wave/Overdrive/Volt Switch covers everything you need I think (you can make a case for snarl I guess specifically for ghost types [read: dragapult], but I don't think it is worth it).
It has one pretty decent counter in g-slowking (although it's worth noting that even fully SpD invested AV g-slowking takes 34-40% from boomburst). Beyond that though, the only other defensive answers that feel comfortable coming in to it are ferrothorn, blissey, and maybe some dragonite, and all three of these are very susceptible to being volt switch chipped and then forced out by an appropriate counter without recovering, so over the course of a few interactions they can get worn down. Other stuff you might expect to be stop it like heatran do not have an easy time switching in (252 HP/128+ SpD Heatran has a 91% chance to get 2KOd by overdrive, and with stealth rocks up you have a 98% chance to 2KO it even when fully SpD invested).
Toxtricity's biggest issues of course are: 1) it has a hard time getting in due to its frailty, 2) it is very prediction reliant since all of its attacks have pokemon which are immune to them, and 3) because of its low bulk and speed it is basically dead weight against hyper offense. These things all clearly prevent it from achieving widespread success.
However, the first of these issues can be mitigated by the presence of extremely common pivot spamming teams and cores, and if your opponent lacks a ghost type, then you don't have to predict anything, just spam boomburst (same goes for overdrive if the ground-type is gone).
It's worth noting that it has had at least some limited tournament success, being used in two games in this WCOP so far. Admittedly, both times it was used by a player from Germany on extremely two extremely similar teams, and in one of these games it was just a sac, but it still won both times. In the game where it wasn't just tossed to the curb to die (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-566637), all it did was click boomburst, but the damage output is insane regardless.
Look, I don't want to give anyone the impression that toxtricity is a crazy sleeper pick or anything, it needs lots of support to work, and even then it is inherently limited by prediction and matchup-fishing, but in the right structure it is an absolute monster. I don't think it deserves to be unranked.
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Tapu Fini has risen alot as it covers alot of metagame staples mostly Urshifu-R, Weavile, and Heatran, which are all highly used and recently have risen drastically in their Viability as well, their usage in ladder- and more importantly tour-games clearly has shown that these Pokemon are one of the top threats with Urshifu-R being an extremely good wallbreaker with its Choice Band set and two great spamable attacks in Close Combat and Surging Strikes, being able to U-turn out of bad matchups like Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu is a big plus for it, whereas Weavile cemented itself as one of the most terrifying Pokemon at the moment with a great speed tier putting it above Pokemon such as Tornadus-T is a great plus for it too, its great natural speed alongside a great typing in dark/ice means it has two very strong and by most of the tier unreisted STAB combination, making Tapu Fini one of the best checks to it and the aforementioned Urshifu-R.
Tapu Fini can also check Heatran and other Pokemon in the metagame such as Hydreigon and to a degree also Volcarona with either revengekilling them with its Choice Scarf set or heavily crippling them and other Pokemon such as Blissey, Slowking, Slowking Galar with a Trick to lock them into 1 move making them way harder to use as checks to a plethora of special wallbreakers.
Not only that Choice Scarf set is great with even being able to revengekill the likes of Dragapult, but also the Calm Mind set saw a great amount of usage and a good success-rate. Lastly, the Trapping set with Whirpool and Taunt is able to break past its usual checks pretty easily, checks such as Toxapex is one of the big ones to mention.
Tapu Fini is a great Pokemon with Weavile as a partner, or Galarian Slowking as a partner, so they're able to cover up most of the metagame in combination, also Pokemon such as Corviknight appreciate Tapu Finis presence. Moreover Tapu Fini fits well on bulky offense and balance builds to cover up the aforementioned threats currently. Also Misty Terrain is great keeping teampartners unstatused, especially Weavile, Urshifu-R, and Galarian Slowking benefit and profit a lot from this aspect.
In overall Tapu Fini climbed up due to various of reasons and cemented itself as one of the best metagame staples and support tools due to different and wide range of sets for its teammates, therefore it has risen 2 subranks in the latest VR update.
Why is dnite A
check monke, check fire moth, check origami plane, check moist man, check fire frog, heal bell support good, hdb good, multiscale strong, dd strong = good
The Toxtricity actually got 2 KO's: Tornadus-T from full and picking off Tapu Koko, while also doing a large amount of damage throughout the game which pressured a lot of Pokemon and making them not want to switch in Toxtricity definitely deserves it's ranking.
also here to make a quick nom!
-> B+While this may initially come off a bit weird, especially in a meta where another faster ghost is king, but there is a reason for this nom. Blacephalon is an incredibly powerful Pokemon with it's absurd SpAtk stat and good speed tier making it quite a threat, and it's ability to absolutely hammer everything with Shadow Ball + Overheat is part of what makes it worthy of B+. With the current meta trends, a lot of defensive Pokemon tend to be focusing primarily on PhysDef instead of SpDef for the likes of Weavile and Urshifu-R, which Blaceph takes advantage of. Not even Blissey is safe from a Specs or Scarf set, as Trick cripples it and makes it much easier to handle.
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Agree with terrakion rise. Its a solid mon that is pretty hard to switch into at +2, all the mons that outspeed it don't switch into it
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 402-473 (126.8 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 550-647 (169.2 - 199%) -- guaranteed OHKO
kart:
do i need to explain
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 647-762 (230.2 - 271.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(terrak beats tapu koko anyways because it gets 2HKOed by gleam and bolt not OHKOd by gleam)
tornadus:
Do I need to explain
Zera:
Do I really need to explain
alakazam:
is litteraly OHKOd by close combat. I think you know what happens if you click rock slide or eq instead here, right?
weavile, latias, azelf, latios, gengar:
rock slide OHKO's all of these lmao
Can also give sufficent breaking against stallers:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
if the pex has TONS of luck, it can haze, but that has a 6% chance of happening so WHATEVER
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 278-329 (70.5 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
no this isn't unaware clef but I think most people run magic guard because they want boots and leftovers at the same time-
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 751-889 (213.3 - 252.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
no explanation needed
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
1-2HKOs standard defog corv even if corv survives and uses roost. can also fish for a flinch as rock slide 2HKOS but struggles with roost more.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 282-333 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
does NOT like switching in even into CC. flinch=bye bye fini, and the damage roll after fini is damaged by stealth rock is in terrakion's favor (62.5% chance to OHKO)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 1835-2163 (257 - 302.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ofc this happens. Blissey has NO, and I repeat NO chance against terrakion.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
apparently chipping physwall hippo a bit makes it die to the 2+ cc, pog
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 195-230 (46.6 - 55%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
fishes for the flinch, can ko with more ease if buzzwole is trying to wall as it will switch in a lot and get chipped somewhat easily.
also buzzwole's a huge physical wall in all fairness, and can easily be blasted by lele.
Moltres doesn't need to be explained. rock slide OHKOs both variants and moltres is fading out of relevance anyways
And finally, the sussy baka:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 313-370 (72.6 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
huzzah!!
obviously while the outspeeders don't switch into it, they do KO terra but only half of them actually see lots of usage (including pult sorry for forgetting that smh) so maybe its not unstoppable, but I'd say its breaking power makes it good of not just B-, but B+ or even A-.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 402-473 (126.8 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 550-647 (169.2 - 199%) -- guaranteed OHKO
kart:
do i need to explain
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 647-762 (230.2 - 271.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(terrak beats tapu koko anyways because it gets 2HKOed by gleam and bolt not OHKOd by gleam)
tornadus:
Do I need to explain
Zera:
Do I really need to explain
alakazam:
is litteraly OHKOd by close combat. I think you know what happens if you click rock slide or eq instead here, right?
weavile, latias, azelf, latios, gengar:
rock slide OHKO's all of these lmao
Can also give sufficent breaking against stallers:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
if the pex has TONS of luck, it can haze, but that has a 6% chance of happening so WHATEVER
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 278-329 (70.5 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
no this isn't unaware clef but I think most people run magic guard because they want boots and leftovers at the same time-
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 751-889 (213.3 - 252.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
no explanation needed
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
1-2HKOs standard defog corv even if corv survives and uses roost. can also fish for a flinch as rock slide 2HKOS but struggles with roost more.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 282-333 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
does NOT like switching in even into CC. flinch=bye bye fini, and the damage roll after fini is damaged by stealth rock is in terrakion's favor (62.5% chance to OHKO)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 1835-2163 (257 - 302.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ofc this happens. Blissey has NO, and I repeat NO chance against terrakion.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
apparently chipping physwall hippo a bit makes it die to the 2+ cc, pog
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 195-230 (46.6 - 55%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
fishes for the flinch, can ko with more ease if buzzwole is trying to wall as it will switch in a lot and get chipped somewhat easily.
also buzzwole's a huge physical wall in all fairness, and can easily be blasted by lele.
Moltres doesn't need to be explained. rock slide OHKOs both variants and moltres is fading out of relevance anyways
And finally, the sussy baka:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 313-370 (72.6 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
huzzah!!
obviously while the outspeeders don't switch into it, they do KO terra but only half of them actually see lots of usage (including pult sorry for forgetting that smh) so maybe its not unstoppable, but I'd say its breaking power makes it good of not just B-, but B+ or even A-.
Why the drop for both Magic Bouncers?
Heavy Duty Boots. I'm guessing the logic for the drop is that why would I run niche hazard control, which is the main use of Magic Bounce, when I could just use Boots and not have a liability in situations that aren't involving hazards.
Hatterene mostly uses Magic bounce as a pseudo magic guard because its lack of recovery, common weaknesses, and losing MUs vs most of the tier's rockers over time makes it fairly poor at abusing it for the purpose of deterring hazards. unfortunately for Hatterene, its an incredibly mediocre pokemon that still demands tons of support to make up for its losing MUs vs every steel but Ferrothorn, aforementioned lack of recovery beyond the inconsistent Dkiss, non existent defensive utility despite being reasonably fat, hatred of Knock off, and faces heavy competition with borderline objectively better wincons in Tapu Fini, Reuniclus, and Clefable.
As for Xatu, its fine? I guess? it does fulfill a unique purpose for certain Stall teams as a way to ruin more passive Rockers like Lando and Clef, but realistically if you want to absolutely dominate the hazard game for whatever reason, you can just use Dual fog, or even just Corviknight+your own Rocks to encourage your opp to fog. Xatu kind of lacks a lot of purpose beyond Magic Bouncing hazards and fails to check pretty much everything offensively relevant in the current metagame due to its awful typing and below average bulk. Its role is defined and specific but its one that so little teams ever would consider needing, even stall would rarely consider it due to losing to pretty much all of the more offensive rockers in the tier. Even if you do end up needing it, Xatu spends a lot of the game just roosting and maybe clicking Night shade or Teleport. It's horrifically passive and awkward to use and tends to create really glaring defensive holes given stall pretty much needs every slot it can take atm.
tl;dr they suck and dont really fit on the playstyles that would benefit from them without noticeable compromises
I greatly appreciate those taking interest in our rankings and those helping out, but if we can remember that we have a Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread for that moving forward, it would be great. Thank you!
B+ -> B/B-Mandibuzz sucks compared to other B+ or even the majority of B rank pokemon. First of all it's competition from corvi,zapdos and now dnite is keep getting worse as they all check or counter anything it wants to but with better role compression or offensive presence than mandi who wants to run so many moves on its single set like tox to cover the fact that it's passive problem, knock as it's main utility that gives it niche or foul play to punish physical sweepers like kart or chomp to stop them from progressing,u turn to pivot and the other 2 move slots are always roost and defog.of course mandi has its niches over its competitors like access to knock but as I've already mentioned above,it struggles to fit that move. The other niche is that it's the only defogger able to counter pult but is it really consistent at doing so? Well no. Mandi simply falls to the rare tbolt or gets 2hkoed by dm(especially if rocks are knocked off and so many mons that mandi likes to switchin like rilla carry it oftenly). And besides there are better pult switchin like clef,bliss or even pex as it really only counters the rare dd set.Therefore I think it warrants a drop
A -> A+
Tornadus-T seems to be more splashable on most teams than all the other A ranked mons and deserves to be ranked alongside Garchomp, Clefable and Corviknight in A+.
This is because like it's brother Landorus-T, Tornadus-T is extremely versatile and can compress many roles - it can defog, Knock off, pivot fast, mess with fat teams using Taunt. It also uses foul play nowadays to punish +2 Garchomp and Landorus-T. It is a Swiss knife - it can perform various key roles any team needs.
What makes it unique over Landorus-T is it's access to regenerator, providing it longevity that Lando-T craves. It also has a much better speed tier, being able to outspeed Kartana, Garchomp etc.. This gives players very good reason to run Tornadus-T in a meta where Landorus-T is the most splashable mon.
It also offers the perks of providing ground immunity and reliable switch in to offensive grasses like Rillaboom and Kartana. It can also softcheck Hawlucha, Landorus-T and Garchomp without Stone Edge.
It has good offensive presence too even with no investment thanks to 110 Special Attack and Hurricane. Alternatively, it can also be used as a wallbreaker thanks to Nasty Plot, with coverage options including Heat Wave, Focus Blast etc...This set also carries Knock-off to cripple typical switchins to Nasty Plot set like Heatran and G-Slowking.
Hence, Tornadus-T's almost unparalleled versatility, defensive properties and offensive presence make it worthy of A+.
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> S- Clefable itself should rise to S-, the versatility of this thing makes it stand out from the rest of A+ the ability to provide different things for teams such as Utility, Cleric, hazard setter, Calm Wind, Unaware, and different variations and possibility for teams. An amazing ability in Magic Guard with a way of reliable recovery and a wide variety of utility moves such as Aromatherapy, Wish, Thunder Wave, and the amazing move in Knock Off. Thanks to a great typing and decent bulk makes it really hard to kill easily and is able to check some top tier threats such as Dragapult and Kyurem and all of these traits in Clefable is such an easy pick for almost any team archetype and is able to fulfill whatever role needed for these teams and isn't quite S material, but also easily the best thing in A+ right now which should rise too S- reflect that.
> A+ Tornadus-T has been a great pick a lot lately as the Pivot set has been common the most used set lately and the utility of it is really great, Knock Off makes it annoying to switch into putting your item at risk and the last moveslot can be played around with, Toxic puts supposed checks that aren't immune to it in a timer, and Taunt being able to dissuade passive mons from using passive moves is good especially in hazard stack teams in preventing other defoggers that supposedly force out Tornadus-T. A decently fast Speed tier and giving momentum for teams thanks to U-turn, and can check Kartana and Rillaboom, while also being a decent Hazard removal are good role compressions for teams. > C+ Arctozolt has been talked a lot lately so I won't add much into it, but this thing is deadly for many teams, while it does dislike Ferrothorn and Buzzwole, the former needs to watch out the occasional Low Kick, this thing is hard to switch into with the nearly unresisted BoltBeam coverage alongside Stomping Tantrum is just hard for most teams to switch into and with Freeze-Dry even worse. While this thing does need a Hail setter for its full use especially since the only viable hail setter right now is in C+ and make sense you will see this with it and you don't really need to build full Hail and can go into a nice Veil Offense where it would be seen commonly and is even more threatening to break or revenge under Veil.
> B The meta hasn't been kind to Dracozolt it dislikes the fact that Landorus-T and Hippowdon have been Special Defense these days and the former is immune to the Physical moves and the latter takes little from Earthquake. Another issue with this has been needing to fit this into Sand teams which have been declining a lot recently and this thing is only useful on Sand teams and is really useless outside of Sand teams meaning you have to use Hustle and rely for all your moves to hit, but you still struggle with Special Defensive Ground-types which are a lot common these days and should probably drop a subrank. > B Mandibuzz has fallen off as a defogger for team, it role compresses a role in being able to cover a handful of threats and a ghost resist as well, but the issue comes with it's ability that it gets overwhelmed by everything it wants to cover in one slot. Faces stiff competetion as a bulky Flying-type for teams from Corviknight, Dragonite, and Tornadus-T all that can't even be compared to Mandibuzz. While Mandibuzz can act as a check to Dragapult, it itself is a rather shaky one where mixed defense Corviknight can act as a pseudo check against it, and other things can check Dragapult better defensively or offensively like Clefable, Weavile, and Tapu Fini. While many other things dislike losing their boots, compared to Mandbuzz it becomes a lot easier to pressure it with things it checks and really dislikes the rise of many recent trends of Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, and Weavile. A really situational pick that won't be one you come into using right away to other better defoggers.
> C- This thing is heavily outclassed by Weavile and Bisharp, it relies on Flame Orb in order to be threatening getting the boost from Guts and the lack of priority makes its middling speed tier be easy to get revenged compared to Bisharp thanks to Sucker Punch. Obstagoon itself gets worn down rather quickly with Flame Orb and even more with Hazards where as Weavile avoids hazards thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots and Bisharp doesn't mind switching into Stealth Rocks. While Obstagoon itself is immune to Shadow Ball compared to the other two who just resist it, the lack of priority and constantly getting chipped down really makes it a very suboptimal pick compared to the other two offensive dark as of right now.
UR > C
Mienshao's Life Orb and Regenerator offensive pivot set is really solid, capable of constantly forcing chip damage with Knock Off without fear of lasting Rocky Helmet chip on the likes of Skarmory or Corviknight. Even would be checks such as Landorus slowly get worn down over the course of a game, and STAB High Jump Kick provides a strong option to continuously pressure it once its item is removed and Knock Off starts hitting like a wet bag. Speaking of High Jump Kick, it 2HKOs Corviknight on the switch-in, greatly discouraging the opponent's use of it to check Mienshao, maintaining Rocks on the field, and adding to the chip damage inflicted on Landorus-T as the game progresses. The combination of U-Turn and Knock Off as we all know provides incredible flexibility for a pivot (especially one with Regenerator to trivialize chip damage), the latter of which strongly discouraging Dragapult from trying to come in on High Jump Kick. High Jump Kick is preferred over Close Combat due to the guaranteed 2HKO on incoming Corviknight and its higher PP aiding in spam in light of Corviknight's Pressure and Landorus's ability to repeatedly switch in; moreover, Regenerator greatly mitigates the risk of missing. Finally, Poison Jab as a coverage option has a favorable roll for a 2HKO versus Tapu Fini on the switch in with Stealth Rock up, and 2HKOs Clefable after minimal chip damage, though if this is not deemed necessary, Stone Edge can be used to hit Zapdos and Dragonite. All in all, Mienshao is difficult to switch into, has Regenerator to facilitate a longevity typically uncommon in offensive pivots, softens physical checks to accommodate other breakers like Kartana and Weavile, and has multiple options to exploit switch-ins. It pairs well with the likes of Kyurem and Tapu Lele who can break past Toxapex for it and provide indiscriminate chip damage with Ice Beam and Psychic/Moonblast respectivelyI to put things in range of High Jump Kick. t's biggest weakness is its lack of immediate breaking power and frailty; HJK relies on chip damage to ensure KOs and its frailty leaves it vulnerable to even mildly powerful attacks. It also faces significant competition and is arguably outclassed in its role by Urshifu-R, who provides a trivially worse Speed tier and lack of longevity/susceptibility to Rocky Helmet in exchange for more power and priority in Aqua Jet. Personally I feel like it deserves a higher ranking than my proposed C, but this seems like a good starting point to open up more discussion.
Replays (I will endeavor to get better examples, but crucial to these is how well Mienshao forces chip versus Landorus-T and creates good positioning with U-Turn)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360547387-7mp37cw0oatu3ldaqzz490fzbd4ba21pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360532112-ym6jsy4zb6z91xofaakwsvmr5bcf0x2pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1364421818-dztihbzr8f9cve3q4jttkx6l9wptm9lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1364557910-ppn1cmzrzke1eso1xj1pen8isg8c9wcpw
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Hate to be the party pooper, but to nom an unranked mon, you need to provide replays showing it performing in a battle. I'm actually saying this because I really like mienshao and would want to see how best to use it in OU, so I can't wait to see the specific set used
UR > C
Mienshao's Life Orb and Regenerator offensive pivot set is really solid, capable of constantly forcing chip damage with Knock Off without fear of lasting Rocky Helmet chip on the likes of Skarmory or Corviknight. Even would be checks such as Landorus slowly get worn down over the course of a game, and STAB High Jump Kick provides a strong option to continuously pressure it once its item is removed and Knock Off starts hitting like a wet bag. Speaking of High Jump Kick, it 2HKOs Corviknight on the switch-in, greatly discouraging the opponent's use of it to check Mienshao, maintaining Rocks on the field, and adding to the chip damage inflicted on Landorus-T as the game progresses. The combination of U-Turn and Knock Off as we all know provides incredible flexibility for a pivot (especially one with Regenerator to trivialize chip damage), the latter of which strongly discouraging Dragapult from trying to come in on High Jump Kick. High Jump Kick is preferred over Close Combat due to the guaranteed 2HKO on incoming Corviknight and its higher PP aiding in spam in light of Corviknight's Pressure and Landorus's ability to repeatedly switch in; moreover, Regenerator greatly mitigates the risk of missing. Finally, Poison Jab as a coverage option has a favorable roll for a 2HKO versus Tapu Fini on the switch in with Stealth Rock up, and 2HKOs Clefable after minimal chip damage, though if this is not deemed necessary, Stone Edge can be used to hit Zapdos and Dragonite. All in all, Mienshao is difficult to switch into, has Regenerator to facilitate a longevity typically uncommon in offensive pivots, softens physical checks to accommodate other breakers like Kartana and Weavile, and has multiple options to exploit switch-ins. It pairs well with the likes of Kyurem and Tapu Lele who can break past Toxapex for it and provide indiscriminate chip damage with Ice Beam and Psychic/Moonblast respectivelyI to put things in range of High Jump Kick. t's biggest weakness is its lack of immediate breaking power and frailty; HJK relies on chip damage to ensure KOs and its frailty leaves it vulnerable to even mildly powerful attacks. It also faces significant competition and is arguably outclassed in its role by Urshifu-R, who provides a trivially worse Speed tier and lack of longevity/susceptibility to Rocky Helmet in exchange for more power and priority in Aqua Jet. Personally I feel like it deserves a higher ranking than my proposed C, but this seems like a good starting point to open up more discussion.
Thanks for the reminder, attached a few that happened to be on my saved replays but will try and get some more using High Jump Kick specifically.
- Status