Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[AquaVanilla]

nom time

RISES

from A to A+ really agree on this, tornt has been making a comeback in the meta rn and its super splashable on some teams, has access to knock, uturn and taunt to shut down fat teams is always really nice.

from C to B i dont get how this mon is in C with shit mons like obstagoon, ever since OLT started this mon has legit became fucking everywhere and its super fucking annoying with skill links + kings rock (ban kings rocks please) it even got OU usage for usage stats in June and had more usage than skarmory, so thats saying something, but its really annoying seeing this mon in C ranks.

from A to A+ i fucking absolutely adore this mon rn, having the ability to pivot on everything in the meta and forming amazing cores with mons like Urshifu, Weavile and Victini is always super fucking great for offensive teams, access to longevity and a great speed tier lets it check a variety of OU mons in the tier also, really scary to deal with late game and has great utility. this mon def deserves to rise a tier up.

from C- to C+ hax bro is super annoying in OLT rn and its 100x better than everything thats in the C-/C tier imo, been seeing it everywhere also in ladder and it should rise.

DROPS
from B+ to B- this mon fucking sucks, its so passive and it faces stiff competition with defoggers like corviknight, tornt and lando. Only real reason to use this mon is for pult (which dies to draco after a uturn) and a knock off pivot. Has also seen shit usage in wcop also. dont use this mon.

from B- to C+/C rain has seen better days, its not as good anymore and u rarely ever see it and it even dropped to UU for that reason, its pretty bad rn in the meta since it faces a lot of issues with mons like kyurem. should drop imo.

from A+ to A many teams have adapted to slowking, and its wcop usage showed that slowking dropped a lot, seeing as slowking-galar had 2x more usage than it. lots of teams prep for slowking and its pretty ez to deal with since it gets knocked or poisoned basically every game, though teleport is still meta defining and annoying.

from B to B-/C+ swampert and dying under 10 turns, name a better duo. anyways, i never see this mon anywhere rn, has shit longevity and is toxic fodder, it also faces competition with other grounds like chomp and lando. its only niche is being a flip turn pivot and heatran check when theres like better mons that can do that like chomp, dnite, and lando.

anyways, hope u enjoyed and have a great day

 

[julian113]

nom time

from A+ to A many teams have adapted to slowking, and its wcop usage showed that slowking dropped a lot, seeing as slowking-galar had 2x more usage than it. lots of teams prep for slowking and its pretty ez to deal with since it gets knocked or poisoned basically every game, though teleport is still meta defining and annoying.

from C to B i dont get how this mon is in C with shit mons like obstagoon, ever since OLT started this mon has legit became fucking everywhere and its super fucking annoying with skill links + kings rock (ban kings rocks please) it even got OU usage for usage stats in June and had more usage than skarmory, so thats saying something, but its really annoying seeing this mon in C ranks.

Really agree with both of these noms, particularly the cloyster nom. It is tied with ferro and clef as the mons that piss me off the most at team preview, ho cheats unwinnable matchups with this thing so well. As for slowking, I would go as far to say as it move below its galarian counterpart to A-, which I find provides much more to a typical ou team than kanto can, with more powerful future sights, more offensive pressure, and better special defense, it just requires a bit of prediction with switches.

Anyway, for my own nom.

to A+
A controversial one I'm sure, but I think a rise is warranted, because of how much dnite brings to your team. It's great ability and typing allows it to check many prominent ou offensive threats, such as volcarona, urshifu, kartana, and rillaboom. Set customization means it can opt to hardwall the aforementioned mons if it opts for a defensive set, while an offensive dd set can use these mons as setup fodder for a potential sweep. Defensive dd sets are also being experimented with, though I find them a bit awkward in practice. In conclusion, I find Dragonite's amazing defensive utility as well as offensive potency worthy of A+

edit: just wanted to clarify that by defensive dd sets I meant the ones with no speed investment, the smogon defensive dd spread is actually my favourite to use and imo the best set.

 

[Tungdil]

honeslty Ive been saying this for a while, however I think Dragapult should be S+ and should be tested. This fucking dragon is extremely oppressive and I’m sick of it. If any of you have ever tried to teambuild and use different mons, scarfers, and not just the same type of team in every other game you will learn quickly how restricting both dragapult and to a much less extent the electric regi are. This dragon is too strong and too fucking fast most of all (which is the main problem). Is it possible to at least get a survey out

I absolutely agree with this nomination and the need for testing it. As Thunder Pwoell has put, it is fast, ruining any attempt to revenge kill. Besides, it can just u-turn against any check or counter. If we compare with , we will see that the former restrict the team build (and it has few checks and counters, besides a safe u-turn due to its speed), while the latter is a great Pokemon but even electric-types can deal with it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Landorus is bad, I'm saying Dragapult is above all OU Pokemon, which means it is a potential UBER.

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

C- -> UR
What in the world does offer over ? There's litteraly only one thing, nasty plot. For that, you have . For bulky physhic type cm stored power sweeper, just use cress.

C+ -> C/C-
Faces stiff dark type competetion in and as well as being slow and frail. Still hits hard enough to be ranked but doesn't offer enough over bisharp and weavile to be C+. Prob drop to C unless theres an obstagoon drop.

B- -> C+/C
Ehhhhhh... the thing isn't as scary as it used to be.
Its EXTREMELY dependent on rain to work, meaning you can use // to disturb it. just walls it.

S -> S-/A+
An overhyped mon in my opinion. needing specs is a mighty blow to what would otherwise be fantastic coverage, you can't just u-turn when your locked into shadow ball and they send in the , it gets blown away by sucker punch bisharp, gets walled by , , and , Specs set looses to with knock off, while scarf just doesn't have the breaking power. Ddance sets are hard to pull of due to 's EXTREMELY shallow physical movepool. Its problem is compounded by the fact that the other pokemon in S is , which has stealth rock, a ridiculous 145 attack, meaning it doesn't have to choice itself into band/specs and can run choice scarf or other items more flexibly. Lando-t provides EXTREME value in beating tran, and tones down physical sweepers. Dragapult does basically nothing that qualifies it for S tier, as well as having 4MSS
-Without u-turn you cant pivot
-Without hydro pump you loose to
-Without thunderbolt you loose to
-Without flamethrower you loose to
-Without draco meteor you loose to
-Without shadow ball you have no spammable STAB move besides pulse
-Unless you run physical for some reason and forego tons of coverage you get toxic stalled by .

 

[pulsar512b]

C- -> UR
What in the world does offer over ? There's litteraly only one thing, nasty plot. For that, you have . For bulky physhic type cm stored power sweeper, just use cress.

C+ -> C/C-
Faces stiff dark type competetion in and as well as being slow and frail. Still hits hard enough to be ranked but doesn't offer enough over bisharp and weavile to be C+. Prob drop to C unless theres an obstagoon drop.

B- -> C+/C
Ehhhhhh... the thing isn't as scary as it used to be.
Its EXTREMELY dependent on rain to work, meaning you can use // to disturb it. just walls it.

S -> S-/A+
An overhyped mon in my opinion. needing specs is a mighty blow to what would otherwise be fantastic coverage, you can't just u-turn when your locked into shadow ball and they send in the , it gets blown away by sucker punch bisharp, gets walled by , , and , Specs set looses to with knock off, while scarf just doesn't have the breaking power. Ddance sets are hard to pull of due to 's EXTREMELY shallow physical movepool. Its problem is compounded by the fact that the other pokemon in S is , which has stealth rock, a ridiculous 145 attack, meaning it doesn't have to choice itself into band/specs and can run choice scarf or other items more flexibly. Lando-t provides EXTREME value in beating tran, and tones down physical sweepers. Dragapult does basically nothing that qualifies it for S tier, as well as having 4MSS
-Without u-turn you cant pivot
-Without hydro pump you loose to
-Without thunderbolt you loose to
-Without flamethrower you loose to
-Without draco meteor you loose to
-Without shadow ball you have no spammable STAB move besides pulse
-Unless you run physical for some reason and forego tons of coverage you get toxic stalled by .

So I wanted to talk about these noms and explain why I disagree with most of this.
Uxie's use is as a trick room setter that can, further, memento to let in a powerful breaker (such as crawdaunt) for free, possibly also allowing setup.
Not a huge niche but it ought to stay in C-
Crawdaunt I don't really agree or disagree.
Barraskewda isn't bad, but esp rn with Slowking becoming super popular, it more than deserves B-.
Dragapult...
This is a big one. So.
The typical set is draco/shadow/uturn/last move with specs
Let's even say that there's no last move.
You uturn on every swap and chip everything down and give momentum. If you've already clicked shadow ball, then that's because you think that they're gonna stay in and if you got that wrong, that's on the user. Blissey gets u-turned to hell, Toxapex loses if spdef drop or future sight, and Heatran has no recovery and gets 3hkod or 4hkod (so just chip it down easily)
Fini is similar to tran, except even worse.
As for Weavile, Draco Meteor and u-turn exist.

TLDR: The "counterplay" you offer (Which, in and of itself, doesn't make a particularly powerful argument for a dragapult drop imo), is mostly flawed in various ways.
(Also dd exists and bypasses quite a few of these)

 

[TailGlowVM]

Dragapult is definitely not S+ in my opinion. That should be reserved for Primal Groudon in SM Ubers - for a start, you aren't automatically putting yourself at huge detriment to not use Dragapult on your OU team.

Anyway, I still think it is S Rank at the moment, because it thrives in a tier that has so few Ghost-resists (Mandibuzz is terrible and Tyranitar not good, which leaves only Blissey, Weavile, Bisharp, and Hydreigon, of which Draco Meteor OHKOes two). It is fairly versatile, with Specs utilising different coverage moves, Hex sets, and occasionally Dragon Dance and SubHex. Dragapult is special because it's a Ghost-type with U-turn - you might be walled by Clefable, Toxapex, Tyranitar, and Blissey, but why is that a problem when they create wide open wallbreaking opportunities for your Melmetal, Urshifu, or Bisharp? It's the best form of speed control we have (and good speed control Pokemon are limited). I'm not sure if it is broken at this point, but its influence on the tier can be seen - Toxapex uses mixed defenses instead of physically defensive spreads almost entirely to check it, Galarian Slowking runs Ice Beam most of the time now, and three different Pokemon have come out of the C-ranks to rise to OU that have some of the best matchups in the tier against it.

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

So I wanted to talk about these noms and explain why I disagree with most of this.
Uxie's use is as a trick room setter that can, further, memento to let in a powerful breaker (such as crawdaunt) for free, possibly also allowing setup.
Not a huge niche but it ought to stay in C-
Crawdaunt I don't really agree or disagree.
Barraskewda isn't bad, but esp rn with Slowking becoming super popular, it more than deserves B-.
Dragapult...
This is a big one. So.
The typical set is draco/shadow/uturn/last move with specs
Let's even say that there's no last move.
You uturn on every swap and chip everything down and give momentum. If you've already clicked shadow ball, then that's because you think that they're gonna stay in and if you got that wrong, that's on the user. Blissey gets u-turned to hell, Toxapex loses if spdef drop or future sight, and Heatran has no recovery and gets 3hkod or 4hkod (so just chip it down easily)
Fini is similar to tran, except even worse.
As for Weavile, Draco Meteor and u-turn exist.

TLDR: The "counterplay" you offer (Which, in and of itself, doesn't make a particularly powerful argument for a dragapult drop imo), is mostly flawed in various ways.
(Also dd exists and bypasses quite a few of these)

wrong, you cant u-turn when your already locked into shadow ball. Anyways, Zam to ur nobody uses it anymore.

 

[pulsar512b]

wrong, you cant u-turn when your already locked into shadow ball. Anyways, Zam to ur nobody uses it anymore.

You didn't read my message? What I said is that if you shadow ball on the swap into something, it's your bad for not clicking uturn on the obvious forced swap.

 

[BT89]

S -> S-/A+
An overhyped mon in my opinion. needing specs is a mighty blow to what would otherwise be fantastic coverage, you can't just u-turn when your locked into shadow ball and they send in the , it gets blown away by sucker punch bisharp, gets walled by , , and , Specs set looses to with knock off, while scarf just doesn't have the breaking power. Ddance sets are hard to pull of due to 's EXTREMELY shallow physical movepool. Its problem is compounded by the fact that the other pokemon in S is , which has stealth rock, a ridiculous 145 attack, meaning it doesn't have to choice itself into band/specs and can run choice scarf or other items more flexibly. Lando-t provides EXTREME value in beating tran, and tones down physical sweepers. Dragapult does basically nothing that qualifies it for S tier, as well as having 4MSS
-Without u-turn you cant pivot
-Without hydro pump you loose to
-Without thunderbolt you loose to
-Without flamethrower you loose to
-Without draco meteor you loose to
-Without shadow ball you have no spammable STAB move besides pulse
-Unless you run physical for some reason and forego tons of coverage you get toxic stalled by .

This is an objectively wrong take. Dragapult is definitively an S tier threat in the current metagame. Needing Specs doesn’t hold it back at all. In fact, it’s what makes it S tier. It’s a very powerful force with Specs, and hell, I can see arguments for a Heavy-Duty Boots pivot variant being a good set, and people are experimenting with Dragon Dance sets more as well, meaning that you can’t just dismiss it as stuck with Specs. Even with being locked into a move, it can still just hard switch, which isn’t that hard to do, since Dragapult’s checks can be used to its team mates’ advantage.

Specs losing to Mandibuzz is a joke, Mandibuzz is a soft check at best due to chip damage from U-Turn, and Draco Meteor is still quite common as a suicide button. Considering Mandibuzz as a full-on check / counter to Dragapult is a solidly outdated opinion. Mandibuzz is also just a bad Pokemon in general, so I don’t think it’s really worth bringing up. Losing to priority isn’t really an excuse, as the only priority moves in the tier are Rillaboom’s Grassy Glide, which doesn’t even 2HKO Pult reliably, Scizor’s Bullet Punch, which is barely a 3HKO, as it becomes victim to Flamethrower. There’s also Bisharp’s Sucker Punch and Weavile’s Ice Shard, which are the only two that can deal with Dragapult. Weavile’s Ice Shard doesn’t even kill Dragapult at full, and makes it victim to Flamethrower or U-Turn. This means that Bisharp’s Sucker Punch is really the only one that really takes on Dragapult. Also, who even cares if it loses to all that? Dragapult is one of the few Ghost-types with U-Turn, meaning that it can bypass its checks pretty easily, since outside of Zeraora, nothing outspeeds it. All would-be counters become U-Turn fodder. Either that, or Dragapult gets the SpDef drop, and Shadow Ball becomes an easier roll.

I don’t think Hydro Pump is really ran that much, as it’s deadweight against everything that isn’t Heatran or Hippo, which you can still chip pretty easily. Shadow Ball already does solid enough damage against Tapu Fini, who also dislikes the chip in general. As I stated earlier, Weavile doesn’t OHKO Pult, so it can even U-Turn on it, as it does a very big chunk. You can also just click Draco Meteor, and Weavile is done. No one is dropping U-Turn nor Shadow Ball, and Draco Meteor is more or less always there as well. The last slot is quite variable with Dragapult, so Electric-coverage or Fire-coverage can still be ran efficiently. Hex can also be ran for statused checks, which can get rid of some valuable counterplay on some teams.

It seems that you are overlooking all of Dragapult’s qualities that make it an S-tier. Only one mon contests it’s Speed tier, and allows Dragapult to be an offensive monster. 100 Special Attack with Choice Specs is quite good, and Dragapult’s Speed tier makes it especially devastating at snowballing. It’s also the best speed control in the tier. This argument is just too heavily flawed to really work.

TL;DR, Dragapult’s presence in the tier as a disruptive offensive speed control monster makes it an S tier.

Overall, I find this post really distasteful and I am in absolute disagreement. Anyways, expect nominations from me some time later.

 

[pulsar512b]

I don’t think Hydro Pump is really ran that much, as it’s deadweight against everything that isn’t Heatran, which you can still chip pretty easily. Shadow Ball already does solid enough damage against Tapu Fini, who also dislikes the chip in general. As I stated earlier, Weavile doesn’t OHKO Pult, so it can even U-Turn on it, as it does a very big chunk. You can also just click Draco Meteor, and Weavile is done. No one is dropping U-Turn nor Shadow Ball, and Draco Meteor is more or less always there as well. The last slot is quite variable with Dragapult, so Electric-coverage or Fire-coverage can still be ran efficiently.

Hydro is also used vs Hippo, but it's certainly still a niche option.
Also worth noting that hex on a statused mon destroys many of the "counterplay", and the HDB pivot sets Are Just Good

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

Hydro is also used vs Hippo, but it's certainly still a niche option.
Also worth noting that hex on a statused mon destroys many of the "counterplay", and the HDB pivot sets Are Just Good

Nobody is going to let pex get statused, misty terrain blocks the statuses, and breakthru, its still nice to not need a choice item to function, slow pivots>fast pivots because pivoting is almost useless if you do damage just to sac a mon when you could do more damage without sacking (Dragapult is fast we all know that), it rarely gets to setup due to subpar bulk, and ddance fears the scald burn. Scarf has much less breaking power and only helps it beat zeraora, while non scarf looses to scarf kart, lele, lando-T, and to top it off, dragapult suffers one of the worst things that can happen to you in pokemon showdown: being weak to knock off.
Edit: I'll try out the pivot set and see if its good then :)

 

[BT89]

Nobody is going to let pex get statused, misty terrain blocks the statuses, and breakthru, its still nice to not need a choice item to function, slow pivots>fast pivots because pivoting is almost useless if you do damage just to sac a mon when you could do more damage without sacking (Dragapult is fast we all know that), it rarely gets to setup due to subpar bulk, and ddance fears the scald burn. Scarf has much less breaking power and only helps it beat zeraora, while non scarf looses to scarf kart, lele, lando-T, and to top it off, dragapult suffers one of the worst things that can happen to you in pokemon showdown: being weak to knock off.
Edit: I'll try out the pivot set and see if its good then :)

I never said that Scarf Pult was good. Frankly, it’s quite awful, and I don’t get why it’s relevant here. U-Turn isn’t just to get something in; it’s to get Dragapult out of a sticky situation. Along with that, most of its checks have good counterplay which can often be found on teams, so the switch-ins shouldn’t really have to worry about a sac. Dragon Dance sets generally run Substitute to prevent Scald burns + for an easier time setting up. Scarf Landorus-Therian is an outdated set, Scarf Lele is usually to clean, and Scarf Kart is kinda just bad. They are also not high in usage w/ Scarf, so eh.

Edit: Also, the only relevant thing using Knock Off on Dragapult is Zeraora.

 

[BoomFantastic]

Nobody is going to let pex get statused, misty terrain blocks the statuses, and breakthru, its still nice to not need a choice item to function, slow pivots>fast pivots because pivoting is almost useless if you do damage just to sac a mon when you could do more damage without sacking (Dragapult is fast we all know that), it rarely gets to setup due to subpar bulk, and ddance fears the scald burn. Scarf has much less breaking power and only helps it beat zeraora, while non scarf looses to scarf kart, lele, lando-T, and to top it off, dragapult suffers one of the worst things that can happen to you in pokemon showdown: being weak to knock off.
Edit: I'll try out the pivot set and see if its good then :)

Scarf Pult is a completely irrelevant set, there's no point in mentioning it when it hasn't seen serious use since Home.

Also, fast pivoting and slow pivoting serve different purposes; it isn't simply a matter of one being better than the other. Slow pivoting brings in a frailer attacker safely without risking it fainting immediately, while fast pivoting capitalizes on a predicted switch to bring in an answer to the switch-in. Case in point, Dragapult can't OHKO things like Blissey, Clefable, or Toxapex, but what it can do is U-turn out on them to bring in the Urshifu/Melmetal/Lele it's partnered with to continue breaking. That's the purpose of running U-turn on Pult at all; it lets you take advantage of any defensive counterplay thrown at you.

And speaking of the Knock Off weakness... There's exactly one pokemon that can get a fast Knock on Pult, and in any case Dragapult usually isn't hard-switching in. And DDance Pult is usually setting up behind screens so its subpar bulk isn't the biggest of issues.

Granted, I don't believe Dragapult is banworthy as of yet, we've seen trends like Weavile and Scarf Fini rise to take advantage of it, and most teams have enough checks for it that they can mitigate what it does over the course of a game. That said, between its solid attacking power, blistering speed and ability to override attempts at switching in with U-turn, it definitely deserves its S-tier.

 

[Baloor]

im not in the boat of dragapult op at all, and it can hit like a wet towel sometimes. however you can't deny dragapult is the best offensive option in the tier. its high speed stat, access to ghost typing + uturn is enough to justify its position on the vr. switchins are extremely limited, the best counterplay to it is simply just playing good. the only good check that exists is blissey but if ran without status it really cant do anything in return, dragapult can simply just uturn out of here on switch anyway. hell that applies to basically any pult check, you can just spam u-turn until you're in a favorable position.

ddpult is also one of the best ho options at the moment. you say ddpult sets are hard to pull off but they really arent. one dd basically can clear most of the tier bar unaware clef. there is some other checks to it but pult can muscle through most of them (not like its coming in first and setting up right away anyway).

another thing i want to bring up, if you can manage to status the defensive mons on your opponents team. if youre running specs hex (or any hex set like hdb or sub, but i consider these inferior options atm) you can basically just win from that point. we have no good ghost resists bar blissey to really stop that from happening lol.

scarf is simply just not a good set, only mon youre missing out on out running in base form is zeraora. i get out running shit like rain mons can be cool but youre sacrificing a ton of power.

pult should not drop. monkey explanation; fast ghost good, fast u turn good, ou no good ghost resists, dd stronk on ho

 

[astroshagger]

I absolutely think Dragapult is top tier, but not broken at all. One of the trickiest things about Pult right now is figuring out which set its running. It used to be you could safely assume specs 70% of the time but now DD and Sub sets are becoming more and more common. While this has historically been used as an exact argument to ban OU mons in the past, what I will say is that none of the sets are over the edge individually and even if you guess wrong most of the stuff you're bringing in on Pult anyway doesn't just automatically get decimated. Additionally the presence of Pult has dragged some stuff up in usage, but its not like those checks were trash to begin with. As an extreme example if you think of something like Lucario Mega who also ran split phys/spec sets, if you guessed wrong you were completely and utterly fucked.

Anyway ya Pult is insane good but not over the edge IMHO

 

[ausma]

Remember that this isn’t the thread to discuss the potential brokenness of certain Pokemon! If you’re interested in discussing that, please go to the metagame discussion thread. I’m ok with discussing Dragapult and its ranking, but please refrain from calling for potential suspects here, as this isn’t the place for it. Thank you!

 

[Finchinator]

Just so you guys know, we are now using thread bans on top of infractions for posters who continuously prove to be problematic.

In addition, I plan on having another slate in ~1.5-2 weeks after I return from vacation and we get a few OLT cycles in, so stay tuned for that.

 

[Empress Mobile]

C- -> UR
What in the world does offer over ? There's litteraly only one thing, nasty plot. For that, you have . For bulky physhic type cm stored power sweeper, just use cress.

Sorry I'm not following this post? The only niche Uxie or Cresselia has in OU is Trick Room. Cresselia is a lot more useful in the mid to late game due to its superior bulk, Lunar Dance, and ability to run somewhat reliable recovery in Moonlight. Uxie is a better lead though due to its access to U-Turn, Memento, and Stealth Rock. Neither Azelf nor Uxie viably runs NP in OU. Azelf is frankly not even viable in OU as its suicide lead niche for rocks alone is dead weight. CM Stored Power sets are pretty universally mediocre in this metagame since it's difficult to find opportunities for multiple rounds of setup among those with the move combination. If you felt absolutely inclined to run one, Reuniclus, Latias, and Tapu Lele immediately come to mind as far superior choices for that role. Comparing Uxie to other Pokemon in terms of roles it does not perform is not relevant to its presence on this list. I think it has a small niche, somewhat jeopardized by the shaky relevance of TR in the current meta.

Edit: I disagree with the take on Barraskewda too. I'd consider it almost mandatory for any rain team since, contrary to your statement, it is actually by far the Swift Swimmer least reliant on rain. Given this I think it should be ranked wherever Pelipper is, and I think B- is fine for now. Recent trends have been mixed for the archetype; it enjoys Slowking falling off but hates the rise of Kyurem. Seeing the rise of fast paced HO teams with stuff like Weavile which get steamrolled by Swift Swim pressure is nice too.

 

[notsotryharding33]

VR Noms(only raises this time)

A to A+

Not only is Tapu Fini incredibly splashable but has the role of checking two of the most dangerous physical attackers in the tier, Weavile and Urshifu Rapid Strike. It has the ability to still switch into the likes of Heatran and Dragapult(barring thunder) more than once, while providing the team with protection to status. Tapu Fini not only is splashable, but is also a really potent win condition with it's Taunt CM set. Furthermore I believe it deserves a rise to A+

B+ to A- (not entirely confident)

After being inspired by a few, and testing it out myself, while I do not believe that it is quite on Rillaboom's level, I believe that Tapu Bulu has a solid place in the metagame. Unlike Rillaboom, it has the ability to provide a great check to pokemon that are very strong in the meta, such as Landorus-T and Urshifu-Rapid Strike, and can make use of it's great 70/115/95 bulk. In addition Tapu Bulu has Stone Edge, which gives it a better offensive matchup against the likes of Zapdos, Mandibuzz, and Dragonite(once Multiscale is broken), while preventing Tornadus-T from coming in for free. Overall Tapu Bulu is still a pokemon that is very passable in the metagame, and has some few traits that can bypass Rillaboom.

B+ to A-

Honestly surprised it hasn't rose last slate, I think that having a fair check to the likes of Lando-T, Garchomp, Heatran, Tornadus, and Volcarona to an extent. Overall has great momentum for teams and can fit well on balance and support the aids of offensive supressors like Dragapult and Kyurem.

B to B+

I've been hearing a lot of good stuff about the two, and I've been seeing a bit more success through Gen 8 and WcOP usage. Ghost offense is starting to trend and get really scary with the lack of viable resists to them in the metagame and the fact that Dark is the only thing to stop it in a non-pursuit metagame. It's the best offensive typing rn. Aegislash's ability to play an offensive and defensive role, as well as be an abuser of ghost + fighting coverage is something that beneficial. and it's other set's such as mixed, sub toxic, and KS + 3 attacks have great potential in the metagame as well as breaking bulky cores an annoying a lot of the metagame. Blacephalon's ability to snowball teams, and decimate bulky walls with Trick is very potent, especially as Tyranitar seems to decline a bit in usage. Even pokemon like Heatran and Dragonite(if multiscale is broken) still struggle to take it on consistently as Shadow Ball simply does too much, with the bonus of a spdef Drop. Ghost is just great offensively, so are these two.

other noms I agree with:

to A+

to B

to B-

to UR

 

[BT89]

Gonna make some noms, some more heat than others.

RISES

A -> A+

Tapu Koko has been a very solid Pokemon for quite a bit now, and I think it is definitely deserving of the A+ rank. I think it is on the same level as, if not, better than Zeraora at the moment as an offensive pivot. Zeraora has been getting it rough with the rise of Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Buzzwole, and although Koko has as well, I think it’s to a lesser extent. Zeraora users have also been opting out on Volt Switch for Toxic/Bulk Up, so I think Koko is better than Zeraora right now for a pure offensive pivot. CM Koko is also a rising threat right now with the drop of Rillaboom, and although the comeback of Hippowdon hurts it, it still has its role. So overall, due to its ability to pivot well, as well as being able to pose a threat to many teams, Koko deserves A+.

A -> A+

Tornadus-Therian has been getting better recently through the discovery of Taunt sets and it still being able to provide its role on teams as a fast Knock Off pivot that can even take something out through a Hurricane. I really don’t think the negative connotation of Hurricane missing really affects Tornadus-T’s viability because, well, it still has Knock Off and U-Turn, and I’ve even seen some Heat Wave and Superpower variants on ladder too. Regenerator is also great for a pivot mon like Torn. Overall, Tornadus-T should have never dropped and should be A+ again.

B+ -> A-

With the advent of utility sets, as well as many other sets due to its universal movepool, Mew is a very solid pick right now. It can do everything more or less. Hazard setter? Check. Defensive utility? Check. Offensive set-up sweeper? Yep. There’s so much variety with Mew, and it’s quickly become one of the most infamous Pokemon in the tier due to its annoyance, which I find funny for what was a C+ tier a month ago. Overall, the advent of Mew was an unexpected one, and Mew should rise to A-.

B -> B+

Aegislash is a very threatening Pokemon currently. I’ve talked about this mon and how many defensive teams dislike seeing Aegislash, and how it can also threaten offense solidly as well, although it hates its Speed tier hindering it from truly being great. Nothing to really say here, it’s good.

B- -> B

Moltres is a solidly underrated Pokemon right now. Sub Pressure Moltres is really solid right now, as Moltres PP stalls and exerts offensive pressure at the same time with this set, which is a really solid feat. I have little else to say, it’s just quite good at its job.

C+ -> B/B-
C -> B-

I’m putting these two together because I’ve nommed these guys too many times. They also share some attributes. They both have little, and in Terrakion’s case, no switch-ins in the tier. They also have a rough time switching in themselves. I’ve explained them in-depth enough, and I’d like to see people give their thoughts on these guys.



C+ -> B-

Before we go on, I just need to say that Among Us memes are ass humor. Anyways, Amoonguss is a very solid Pokemon right now. It has better special bulk than Tangrowth, and can perform as a very good answer to the likes of Zeraora, and can even beat Heatran with Stomping Tantrum. Again, a mon I have little to say about. It’s good, moving on.



C -> B-

lol get flinched.



Ok but for real, this Pokemon is very threatening, with Kings Rock + Skill Link + Shell Smash making it a very annoying and horrifying threat.

C -> C+

Sun has been rising recently. Under the sun, this thing has 0 switch-ins. Like, quite literally none. It’s insane. Torkoal is also a solid setter, as it is solidly bulky and can set up Stealth Rock well. Sun’s evolution from a ladder gimmick to a legitimate playstyle that can be hard to stop is a great one, and these two are at the forefront of it.

C- -> C

This is probably a flaming hot take, but Shedinja is actually not as bad as I made it out to be. Shedinja finds its use on stall as the best answer to Lele and Kyurem on these kinds of teams. Shedinja Stall is one of the better stalls right now in my opinion, and it’s because they are less vulnerable to popular stall killers. Shedinja is at the forefront of one of the better stall archetypes and should get a rise because of it.

DROPS

A+ -> A

I know I’m going to get a lot of criticism for this one, but somewhat controversially, Slowking has definitely seen better days in this meta. Slowking itself is bad outside of a Future Sight pívot role, and while that is good, beating almost nothing without the help of a wall breaker is not ideal. Most teams are prepared for Future Sight, which only really has two or three abusers in Urshifu-Rapid, Weavile, and Zeraora, and while all three are amazing right now, they can perform well even without it. Slowking doesn’t really perform well defensively either, as it only really answers Tapu Lele and not much else, as its typing is quite terrible defensively, leaving it killed by Dragapult, the Grass-types, Knock Off, and Bug Buzz variants of Volcarona. Overall, although Slowking has an amazing role on balance teams, I simply think it is not A+ material and should be dropped to A.

A- -> B+

Bisharp has one glaring flaw that makes it not nearly as good as before: the rise of Weavile. Weavile is better as an offensive Dark-type than Bisharp, due to better Speed and better offensive typing. Weavile even has better Special bulk, meaning that it’s more sturdy against the likes of Dragapult. Bisharp still is quite a threat, but when you suffer from competition with a Top 10 Pokemon, it’s rough.

B+ -> B
Nidoking is thoroughly meager right now. The fact that if you have outsped Nidoking, you can take advantage of its bad traits so easily, is very bad for it. It has barely any switch-ins, but is easily prevented by a ton of things. Being so offensively easy to take advantage of is what really drops it.

B+ -> B/B-

Mandibuzz has been falling off for a long time, and it is at its lowest right now. Mandibuzz’s issue is that it is tasked with checking so much, but in actuality, most things it is supposed to check have ways around it, whether it be Knock Off, status, or generally abusing its somewhat passive presence. It’s application on teams is becoming more specific as time goes by, and because of this, it should definitely drop.

B+ -> B

Tyranitar has fallen from glory in a surprising twist of an events. It can operate as a Dragapult and Volcarona check. However, they both have easy ways to come around it. Tyranitar is generally U-Turn fodder due to its slow Speed and weakness to the move. The transition to Band sets doesn’t really improve this thing by a ton, and it’s really a B tier mon.

B -> B-/C+

Excadrill has heavily fallen off in the current state of the meta. Relying on Iron Head flinch to operate isn’t that good, and Excadrill is horrible outside of sand. Even there, it’s not even the best abuser of sand, since Dracozolt is better at its job. Mediocre Pokemon, that’s all.

B- -> C+

Rain has fallen off harshly since WCOP, and with that, so has Pelipper. Pelipper as a Pokemon is pretty bad, it doesn’t really do much outside of rain, and is only there for strict rain support. I won’t ask for a Barraskewda drop, as it’s fine enough under rain to claim B-, but Pelipper doesn’t have enough to justify B-.

C -> C-

Webs HO is becoming increasingly mediocre as time goes by, and through this, Shuckle struggles to make itself in this meta. Sure, it’s bulky as hell, but it’s extremely passive and easy to abuse. It’s easily worn down, as it relies on Toxic and Infestation to do any damage due to its pathetic offensive stats, and is very one dimensional and stuck as a lead. Overall, it’s not good at all.

C -> UR

This thing is awful. If your ground is alive, you beat Eleki. If even things like Tyranitar, Zeraora, and Thundurus-T are on your team, you win the match up. Regieleki is such a specific and niche Pokemon that never should be considered for a serious team because EVERY team beats it one way or another.

C- -> UR

Alakazam is very mediocre. Little to no bulk to speak of, only works on specific hyper offenses, and outclassed by the many special attackers of the tier that can perform better than Alakazam generally.

That’s all for now.

 

[julian113]

B- -> C+

Rain has fallen off harshly since WCOP, and with that, so has Pelipper. Pelipper as a Pokemon is pretty bad, it doesn’t really do much outside of rain, and is only there for strict rain support. I won’t ask for a Barraskewda drop, as it’s fine enough under rain to claim B-, but Pelipper doesn’t have enough to justify B-.

I really agree with all your noms, but this one caught my eye. I know rain has fallen off heavily, and that it probably deserves a drop, but it would be ridiculous to keep barraskewda above a mon it’s completely reliant on for its viability. While as a standalone mon pelipper isn’t great, it’s no politoed, who is completely useless outside of setting rain. Pelipper boasts an excellent, high-powered stab combo, letting it apply offensive pressure, as well as uturn and reliable recovery, allowing it to act as a great slow pivot to get rain breakers in, as well as giving it great longevity that other weather setters don’t have. If pelipper was to drop, it would represent a drop in the rain archtype, so barra would immediately follow, since it would be unviable without rain.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I really agree with all your noms, but this one caught my eye. I know rain has fallen off heavily, and that it probably deserves a drop, but it would be ridiculous to keep barraskewda above a mon it’s completely reliant on for its viability. While as a standalone mon pelipper isn’t great, it’s no politoed, who is completely useless outside of setting rain. Pelipper boasts an excellent, high-powered stab combo, letting it apply offensive pressure, as well as uturn and reliable recovery, allowing it to act as a great slow pivot to get rain breakers in, as well as giving it great longevity that other weather setters don’t have. If pelipper was to drop, it would represent a drop in the rain archtype, so barra would immediately follow, since it would be unviable without rain.

I have to agree. While Barraskewda can still revenge kill weakened opponents late game without rain being active, it's not plausible that you'd be able to get enough mileage out of it throughout a match without rain. Likewise I don't think it can be easily replaced on rain teams, so I'd rank them together. I think B- is fine for the archetype. Recent developments have really been a mixed bag, and I think there's enough flexibility in which mons to pair with the obligatory two to help it against some of its tougher matchups like bulky offense with Kyurem (for example, Teleport Blissey as a bulky pivot).

 

[BT89]

I really agree with all your noms, but this one caught my eye. I know rain has fallen off heavily, and that it probably deserves a drop, but it would be ridiculous to keep barraskewda above a mon it’s completely reliant on for its viability. While as a standalone mon pelipper isn’t great, it’s no politoed, who is completely useless outside of setting rain. Pelipper boasts an excellent, high-powered stab combo, letting it apply offensive pressure, as well as uturn and reliable recovery, allowing it to act as a great slow pivot to get rain breakers in, as well as giving it great longevity that other weather setters don’t have. If pelipper was to drop, it would represent a drop in the rain archtype, so barra would immediately follow, since it would be unviable without rain.

Honestly, yeah you’re right. I don’t know why I didn’t drop Barraskewda, but not dropping Barraskewda would be illogical if I’m dropping Pelipper too. So, might as well fix that! Apologies for what is technically a double post.

B- -> C+

Barraskewda’s utter reliance on rain to perform at all in the current OU metagame, where rain is not as good as before, hinders Barraskewda greatly. Not just that, it is also walled by the likes of the Slowtwins, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini, three common Pokemon right now (excluding Slowbro). The lowering usage of Rillaboom and the increasing usage of hyper offense may help a bit, but I don’t think it really stops rain from becoming a C+ tier playstyle.

C+ -> C/C-

Kingdra is also a mediocre pick right now. There are a ton of special walls, and Kingdra has very limited coverage, meaning it’s very predictable and easily walled by the likes of Slowking and Blissey. Not much else to it.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

C -> B


The set:
Togekiss is a fairly "ok" Pokemon because on surface level there seems a lot left to be desired, but I have a strong reason to believe that people have been looking at it all wrong. No I'm not referring to the scarf sets, or the heal bell stall breaker, or god forbid defog, I'm talking about the one and only Substitute+Salac berry. For now here's the set itself to give you an idea of what they typically utilize...

Amatsu (Togekiss) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Roost/flamethrower/aura sphere

Now if you're still wondering what I'm talking about, I'll give a quick TLDR about the strategy; You switch in on something you can substitute on, and after this there's two ways this can go.
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A: They switch into something that outspeed's and breaks substitute, lets use Nidoking as an example. If this happens you spam substitute until you are in salac berry range, you will be at 1 HP behind a substitute when this happens. Next as they break your last substitute, you go for nasty plot and proceed to sweep and you can even roost later.

B: They switch into a defensive Pokemon to outlast you, thing is this is VERY risky to do since you're already behind a substitute by the time they switch into their defensive check and that's a free nasty plot. Depending on the Togekiss set as well, +2 flamethrower/aura sphere can annihilate certain defensive "answers" such as Heatran, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, and Tyranitar. Even roost variants can +2 Air slash flinch down those same defensive "answers" if they are chipped down. Those same checks being chipped down isn't even unrealistic due to them not having access to recovery, and inability to run HDB(heavy duty boots).
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Effectiveness/Counter play/Results:
The viability of this pick is insanely good, myself along with others such as Little Piggg Baloor have been utilizing this during OLT and have seen results ranging into the 1900's territory even on the final day of OLT where competition has been highest. Not only that but other hyper offense players such as "HO only bitch" along with several other OLT players using Togekiss in the middle of the 2000's, while simultaneously beating well known players with it. One of my replays with it involve a match where I managed to defeat tour player beatiful during OLT with the set late game (paralysis support helped gravely). https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1371915074
It's clear the effectiveness of the set isn't a fluke judging by how players like ox the fox, beatiful, maki, and more have lost to it but enough just talking about how effective it is, let's dive into why it works so well.

1. The set itself is very easy to support due to the miniscule amount of options that can withstand a multitude of boosted air slash's, or +2 coverage moves. On top of that the +1 speed salac berry offers, allows you to outspeed even Zeraora, which is scary to think about when it's at +2 Spa. This all combined, leaves a lot of wiggle room for how to accurately chip down the few remaining defensive checks as well as counter the offensive scarfers that "might" be able to revenge kill it. The most consistent threats to the set other than scarfers who can outspeed boosted Togekiss are most notably AV(assault vest) Melmetal, hard switch in with Weavile on substitute, unaware Clefable, and Spdef Scizor. Most other defensive answers you can just mow down with a boosted coverage move, or simply flinch with +2 air slash while strategically substituting/roosting which works very well against Zapdos since roost landings allow your substitute to tank volt switch. Scarf Pokemon can pose as in issue to Togekiss but the thing is there is really no easy way for a scarf revenge killer to come in without you either being able too roost on that hard switch, or having a substitute up already. Scarf revenge killers are often weak anyways, so if you are ever able to heal up after that salac berry boost they will struggle to 2 hit KO you very often due to Togekiss's great bulk. On top of that the available choice scarfer's oftentimes lose to Togekiss.

-Togekiss can spam roost on scarf Tapu Lele until the terrain runs out and it avoids the two hit ko
-Kartana with scarfed smart strike can't OHKO from full HP but you can ohko back, assuming no substitute is up
-Scarf Landorus-T you can oftentimes spam substitute/roost to abuse stone edge dodge to stall out the 8 PP and even if they manage to land them you can always come back later to heal up and stall out the remaining stone edge's
-Scarf Tapu Fini just make sure you have a substitute up to not get tricked and there's nothing they can do.
-Scarf Kyurem, ok if your not behind sub good fucking luck but if you are boosted aura sphere should do the trick.

Also about AV Melmetal, Weavile and unaware Clefable, Melmetal is tricky but with +2 coverage and chip damage via hazards it shouldn't be an issue and its even better if you are able to burn it with Volcarona flame body or paralyze it for a free cheese kill. Same honestly can be said about Weavile with its triple axel, iron barb/helmet damage with Toxapex to chip it down or again just Volcarona flame body(running theme there). Clefable is actually the most tricky since really it just all comes down to luck but the bonus here is that 248 HP allows your substitute to survive a moonblast so its more so in your favor due to that, and of course paralysis support makes it a cakewalk. Spdef scizor can be an issue but again defensive Volcarona can often flame body it as well as hard counter and with Scizor burned its not issue. Even without Volcarona, a decently chipped down Scizor around 65% is getting rolled by air slash while you tank it with no issue. Notable mention here is Heatran but +2 aura sphere should do the trick and even without aura sphere you beat it 1v1 due to stalling out magma storm and its awful accuracy. With all this in mind its no wonder why being able to support a Pokemon with such minimal answers is this easy, defensive Volcarona/Twavers/hazard stack are undoubtedly the best bet if you want to abuse it's sweeping potential the most.

2. On top of it being such a hard Pokemon to answer, it's raw natural bulk along with speed/HP investment/typing is the perfect combo for a defensive middle man especially for HO teams. I mean I don't even think I have to explain this here look at these calcs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Togekiss: 159-187 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 306-362 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 256-302 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (roll to kill with sr up)

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Togekiss in Psychic Terrain: 253-298 (67.8 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (roll to kill with sr up)

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Psychic Terrain: 265-313 (71 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (roll to kill with sr up)

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss on a critical hit: 318-378 (85.2 - 101.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 282-332 (75.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 325-384 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Togekiss: 87-103 (23.3 - 27.6%) -- 76.5% chance to 4HKO (roll on if breaks sub, crucial vs unaware)

With this survivability you're tanking everything while getting all the boost you can ask for versus a large majority of the meta including specs Dragapult LOL, it's no wonder this works so well even against the best of the best. Even versus Pokemon that Togekiss can't two hit KO while boosted, the odds are in YOUR favor to win because of how math works 60>40.

3. The matchups it has are incredible outside of weather teams which even then it substitutes up on Pelliper and Hippowdown, and if the weather setter is gone it's still quite excellent at sweeping. Most notably the set 6-0's stalls, and is great and breaking through thick balance cores especially with paralysis support/late game. Hyper offense is no different too with a lot of teams unable to defensively manage +2/3 spa Togekiss and unable to outspeed +1 Spe Togekiss due to the rarity of scarfers on hyper offense. It just is an all around consistent pick no matter the matchup.
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I probably missed a few things about Togekiss that I didn't even mention but this thing being so low is outrageous, tbh playing with it myself in some of the most difficult conditions of ladder imaginable I can say with confidence that this thing is a top 10 Pokemon even Storm Zone agrees with this sentiment, but I do believe that people will have doubts as it seems like a bit of a one trick so I'm fine compromising to A instead of A+ if that's the case. Highly suggest spamming this set whenever you can, its sweeping potential is monstrous and its answers and limited and certainly NOT without counter play (DEFENSIVE VOLCARONA).

II highly suggest trying this out on a Hyper offense build sometime, its extremely good both defensively and offensively.

SET MADE BY ORIGINALLY: Little Piggg

 

[ausma]

A fairly big derailing of the thread happened a little bit ago; I deleted all of the messages that were involved so we can keep the thread clean and on-topic. However, for the future: please keep personal discussions that do not pertain to the purpose of the thread to yourselves, and if you have a serious report or concern regarding anything you see, we request you to privately message the moderation team so we can handle the situation calmly and assuredly. Thank you for your understanding.