The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon

[The Mind Electric]

It sounds to me like the game does give you the resources to combat it, and you're just actively ignoring them.

1. Yes, Lance is easy if you play on Switch mode and use a pharmacy of healing items, and you don't even need to grind to do that, but that's not fun or satisfying for many people. Pokémon demonstrated that it can make fights that are fun with restrictions like no healing items and set mode in the same generation as HG/SS with Platinum Cynthia, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that from Lance.

2. Grinding in HG/SS is fucking agony on retail.

 

[Siggu]

If the HGSS Lance fight was well designed it would not punish me for playing that way as egregiously as it does.

The thing is, if you are deliberately restricting yourself to that point, it's not the game's fault that certain battles do not glue well with that extreme playstyle.

It would be like complaining that E3M7 in Nightmare Mode in Quake I is tremendously difficult with a Vanilla Start... when you are not supposed to play that level in those conditions anyways.

 

[Brambane]

B2W2 Cheren can randomly be such a horseshit fight in Hardcore Nuzlockes, especially on Challenge Mode. This is why it is both the best and worst fight in the series imo.

You have exactly four areas to get Pokemon before the Gym: your starter, Route 19, Route 20, and Floccesy Ranch. You are rolling up the first Gym with at most four Pokemon. Which isn't awful, Cheren only has 2/3 Pokemon after all. But the encounter tables for these areas can completely screw you:

Route 19: Patrat / Purrloin - Patrat is slowish and has generally bad stats and Purrloin has 0 good attacking options. Both of these Pokemon are generally terrible and unless you get blessed with amazing IVs and natures are not exceptional against Cheren in any way.

Route 20: Patrat / Purrloin / Sunkern / Pidove / Sewaddle - Sunkern has ultra gabarge stats, but at least it can Grasswhistle and Growth if you want to risk it for biscuit. Pidove is okay with potential Super Luck Quick Attack, and it is actually reasonably bulky for the first fight, but in the end it is still just a Pidove. Sewaddle is the best one here: 70 base Defense and a meaty STAB Bug Bite this early means it can actually put in work for this fight.

Floccesy Ranch: Lillipup / Azurill / Patrat / Mareep / Psyduck / Pidove / Riolu - If you're Lillipup has good Speed its a decent mon for the fight since it has a strong Tackle/Frustration and can flinch with Bite. Azurill is a 50/50 with its ability, but even then gets no STAB outside of Frustration. It also is slow AF. Mareep can sometimes Static which is nice and ThunderShock does decent damage. Psyduck has a decent Water Gun but not much else. And while Riolu seems awesome, and to be fair it is with Force Palm, its only a 5% encounter.

So generally speaking you have your starter, a weak mon, probably a second weak mon from Route 20, and hopefully an okayish mon from the ranch. I have had runs where I got my starter, Purrloin, Sunkern, and Patrat as my team and it is absolute AGONY. PURE AGONY.

But Cheren himself also has the advantage of being able to use Work Up and Bite. If his AI decides to use moves in a somewhat decent order, he can start throwing out +1 50 BP STAB Tackles at your poor early-game squad. If he outspeeds you, he can also randomly click Bite and flinch you into oblivion. And in Challenge Mode, Lillipup gets an Oran Berry and he adds a Super Luck Pidove to his team. At this stage in the game, you don't have the EVs to compensate for poor IVs or natures on your Pokemon. And the starters in Unova aren't exactly exceptional; with the 13 level cap, their best STAB moves are Vine Whip, Ember, and Water Gun for the fight. And if you picked Snivy, you're damage is lacking unless you can manage to squeeze in some Growths. Tepig and Oshawott can be slower if you get bad natures or IVs, too. Oh, and Cheren can use a Potion.

B2W2 is the only Nuzlocke I will reset in if I get a bad starter because the chances of me having a somewhat decent Cheren fight are just so much worse that it isn't worth the time to even run it imo. The worst part of the fight is its super inconsistent; sometimes Cheren is just an idiot and spams Work Up and never bothers to attack. But this degree of BS is why its also the best; coming out of Cheren relatively unscathed is such a high that it sets the tone for the rest of the run.

 

[The Mind Electric]

The thing is, if you are deliberately restricting yourself to that point, it's not the game's fault that certain battles do not glue well with that extreme playstyle.

The only restriction this guy uses that I don't also follow is no grinding (I'll grind to catch up with the curve, but I try to avoid egregious overleveling), and most fights are a good kind of challenge despite that. Lance doesn't have much of an excuse.

 

[Wukong]

The thing is, if you are deliberately restricting yourself to that point, it's not the game's fault that certain battles do not glue well with that extreme playstyle.

I don't see that as an extreme playstyle, however. You can beat every other boss in the series without grinding, on Set mode using no healing items in battle, as long as you plan properly. The first match against Lance in HGSS stands out as the only example in the series, from my experience, which requires an over reliance on luck to beat him under those conditions, even if you plan for him.

I realize Pokémon games are targeted towards a casual audience not seeking a high level of difficulty, but I think a good Pokémon game should still allow those of us who want to retain a level of difficulty to play under such conditions without it feeling oppressive. Platinum nails that feeling. HGSS does not, with the first match against Lance being the biggest culprit in my opinion.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

HGSS Lance doesn't give you resources to combat it at all. Oh wait guys, a Lapras they stuck way out of the way in Union Cave in Friday’s learns Ice Beam, so that completely makes up for it.

oh wait, no it doesn’t.

what about the level 23 ice types in ice path?!

right guys?

guys where are you goin?

WAIT I GOT IT!

there is one way to combat Lance. It’s been in front of my face the entire time.

The DS power button.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

If I remember correctly the main weapon I used against Lance in HGSS was Ice Fang Gyarados in tandem with Golem. One gets by on having Dragon Dance and of course Ice Fang and I managed to cheese past the Dragonites with Gyarados using some of them as setup bait, and in some cases I used Golem and its sheer bulk in tandem with Rock STAB to get by some of the Dragonites and Charizard as well.

The lack of Ice-types available without grinding is a huge detriment though and spectacularly flawed game design, but I had to make do with what I did have, and Gyarados is pretty easily accessible while I had the luxury of trading with myself to get Golem.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

If I remember correctly the main weapon I used against Lance in HGSS was Ice Fang Gyarados in tandem with Golem. One gets by on having Dragon Dance and of course Ice Fang and I managed to cheese past the Dragonites with Gyarados using some of them as setup bait, and in some cases I used Golem and its sheer bulk in tandem with Rock STAB to get by some of the Dragonites and Charizard as well.

The lack of Ice-types available without grinding is a huge detriment though and spectacularly flawed game design, but I had to make do with what I did have, and Gyarados is pretty easily accessible while I had the luxury of trading with myself to get Golem.

I mean like yeah there are options, despite my sarcasm above. The problem is once you venture OUTSIDE of the stereotypical Johto picks everyone goes for (in our HGSS list, a FOURTH OF THE ROSTER IS IN D TIER) Lance is horribly unbalanced, and that's my biggest problem.

in other news, Jasmine feels hilariously unfitting in a more or less "Nintendo hard" game (I consider it that way due to all the forced level grinding). You put some classy Choice Specs on, walk in the Gym and she hands you the badge basically.

 

[Wukong]

If I remember correctly the main weapon I used against Lance in HGSS was Ice Fang Gyarados in tandem with Golem. One gets by on having Dragon Dance and of course Ice Fang and I managed to cheese past the Dragonites with Gyarados using some of them as setup bait, and in some cases I used Golem and its sheer bulk in tandem with Rock STAB to get by some of the Dragonites and Charizard as well.

The lack of Ice-types available without grinding is a huge detriment though and spectacularly flawed game design, but I had to make do with what I did have, and Gyarados is pretty easily accessible while I had the luxury of trading with myself to get Golem.

The problem is, given HGSS's level curve your Gyarados might not even know Dragon Dance by the time you reach Lance. Level 44 for a Slow EXP Pokémon at that point of that game might be wishful thinking.

And as you alluded to, Golem being a trade evolution makes it a suboptimal choice for most people.

 

[Siggu]

I think the battle with Kukui in SM does not get enough appreciation.

The few times I see some praise it's because it's "A battle with a professor", without actually taking note about the battle itself.

Kukui's is perhaps my favourite Champion battle because his team actually looks like there is some thought behind it: among other things, his team features a fast Stealth Rock lead, a Pokémon with Tailwind and another with Thunder Wave to patch up many of the team members' middling Speed, a phazer, status protection, and a(n attempt of a) wallbreaker. As another thing to note, all his Pokémon, save for Ninetales, are from evolutionary lines that can be obtained without even leaving Melemele (in other words, five of his six Pokémon are from the early game).

It's a huge difference compared to most Champions, who simply have six powerful and/or rare Pokémon with perhaps some type variety. Sure, it's not amazing, and many of Kukui's Pokémon can be broken through brute force, but it's the thought that counts.

In contrast, I was noticeably disappointed with the final Hau battle in USUM. I like how much better the character is, but the Champion battle is one of easier ones against him. But then again, my perception might be skewed by the fact I had two pseudo-legendaries and Rufflet through near the entire game, making the earlier battles harder.

 

[PokemonCrusader]

I mean like yeah there are options, despite my sarcasm above. The problem is once you venture OUTSIDE of the stereotypical Johto picks everyone goes for (in our HGSS list, a FOURTH OF THE ROSTER IS IN D TIER) Lance is horribly unbalanced, and that's my biggest problem.

in other news, Jasmine feels hilariously unfitting in a more or less "Nintendo hard" game (I consider it that way due to all the forced level grinding). You put some classy Choice Specs on, walk in the Gym and she hands you the badge basically.

HG/SS basically has 7-8 legitimate options. I remember playing it and since my style only uses Pokemon from the generation that the games are set in I was sort of screwed so I went and caught Lugia despite finding using legendaries to be distasteful.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

HG/SS basically has 7-8 legitimate options. I remember playing it and since my style only uses Pokemon from the generation that the games are set in I was sort of screwed so I went and caught Lugia despite finding using legendaries to be distasteful.

I view HGSS as the anti-BW1, where everything is terrible save for like 5 mons.

BW1 in contrast you can use almost anything. Love that game.

 

[The Mind Electric]

HG/SS basically has 7-8 legitimate options. I remember playing it and since my style only uses Pokemon from the generation that the games are set in I was sort of screwed so I went and caught Lugia despite finding using legendaries to be distasteful.

Eh, there's enough good options to get you through most of the game on only Johto Pokémon. Ampharos is good, Heracross annihilates 5 gyms for no reason, and Espeon puts in work at points (so I've heard, I haven't actually used this one). It's very obvious that they wanted teams to mix Kanto and Johto Pokémon, though. The red Gyarados in particular gets a DDance setup on literally every member of the Indigo League if you can get it to level 44 (though you may not want to spend too much time setting up on Karen, that Umbreon has some infuriating RNG abuse if you give it the necessary turns), and that's given to you for free. It does make Johto feel kinda lame when so few of its Pokémon have the necessary combination of strength and availability to be good in in-game playthroughs, though. Those three I just mentioned? Those are some of your only good options. Have fun!

It's especially frustrating in HG/SS because a bunch of Johto Pokémon got really sick evolutions that you can't use for most of a playthrough for no real discernable reason. Togetic can't be evolved until the post-game, you can't get Magnezone at all because no magnetic field, Weavile and Gliscor require you to play the fucking Battle Frontier to get their evolution items (hope you like the Battle Factory, because you probably don't have good enough Pokémon to win the necessary BP in anything else if you're just doing a casual run), and a bunch of other cool ones are locked behind trades that many people can't do legitimately due to a lack of the necessary equipment/friends. These Pokémon would have made HG/SS playthroughs way more interesting, but I guess not.

What a frustrating game.

 

[Wukong]

HG/SS basically has 7-8 legitimate options. I remember playing it and since my style only uses Pokemon from the generation that the games are set in I was sort of screwed so I went and caught Lugia despite finding using legendaries to be distasteful.

This is also my style and agree that HGSS lacks considerably in viable Johto options.

I will say that being able to catch Steelix in Cliff Cave is a huge plus. Since Steelix is the highest level Pokémon in that area (level 23) you just have to catch a Tentacool level 23 next to Cianwood and use Repel in that area to guarantee you will run into one, circumventing its 2% encounter rate.

Steelix hard counters Lance's Thunder Dragonite as well as his Aerodactyl. Their best moves against it are Dragon Rush and Aerial Ace, respectively, which barely hurt even with the level gap. Lance's fight is still garbage but Steelix's performance in this fight is pretty great.

 

[PokemonCrusader]

Eh, there's enough good options to get you through most of the game on only Johto Pokémon. Ampharos is good, Heracross annihilates 5 gyms for no reason, and Espeon puts in work at points (so I've heard, I haven't actually used this one). It's very obvious that they wanted teams to mix Kanto and Johto Pokémon, though. The red Gyarados in particular gets a DDance setup on literally every member of the Indigo League if you can get it to level 44 (though you may not want to spend too much time setting up on Karen, that Umbreon has some infuriating RNG abuse if you give it the necessary turns), and that's given to you for free. It does make Johto feel kinda lame when so few of its Pokémon have the necessary combination of strength and availability to be good in in-game playthroughs, though. Those three I just mentioned? Those are some of your only good options. Have fun!

It's especially frustrating in HG/SS because a bunch of Johto Pokémon got really sick evolutions that you can't use for most of a playthrough for no real discernable reason. Togetic can't be evolved until the post-game, you can't get Magnezone at all because no magnetic field, Weavile and Gliscor require you to play the fucking Battle Frontier to get their evolution items (hope you like the Battle Factory, because you probably don't have good enough Pokémon to win the necessary BP in anything else if you're just doing a casual run), and a bunch of other cool ones are locked behind trades that many people can't do legitimately due to a lack of the necessary equipment/friends. These Pokémon would have made HG/SS playthroughs way more interesting, but I guess not.

What a frustrating game.

You can scratch together options for one play-thru. I used all three of those Pokemon and enjoyed them.

The lack of depth is exposed through multiple replays.

This is also my style and agree that HGSS lacks considerably in viable Johto options.

I will say that being able to catch Steelix in Cliff Cave is a huge plus. Since Steelix is the highest level Pokémon in that area (level 23) you just have to catch a Tentacool level 23 next to Cianwood and use Repel in that area to guarantee you will run into one, circumventing its 2% encounter rate.

Steelix hard counters Lance's Thunder Dragonite as well as his Aerodactyl. Their best moves against it are Dragon Rush and Aerial Ace, respectively, which barely hurt even with the level gap. Lance's fight is still garbage but Steelix's performance in this fight is pretty great.

I wish I remembered to use the Repel trick when I searched for my Steelix. Would have saved me much time and grief. Oh well, faint heart never won fair hearts or the Holy Land.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

It sounds to me like the game does give you the resources to combat it, and you're just actively ignoring them.

To be fair, rules like what Wukong mentioned aren't that uncommon or unreasonable.

I personally don't like Set mode because it makes it harder to split levels better. (I like all my mons evenly-leveled.) but even that isn't that unreasonable.

Sure, you have options like potions and the like, but think about it. As a player, you already have so many advantages like not being a dumb AI and EVs. I'm not surprised that some would find it more satisfying to beat the bosses on somewhat even ground.

Now, if someone came here talking about how RBY Surge is horrible because they couldn't beat it with a mono-Flying team, then I'd call that silly.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Marlon is bad for the simple reason he thought Team Plasma ''might not be evil'' even after trying to freeze a city. Mind you, this is Ghetsis's Plasma, not the one from BW1 that had misguided but fundamentally decent people working alongside real jerks and we didn't know Ghetsis was evil yet.

I haven't played HG/SS in a long time, I don't even have it any more actually, but Lance was really tough. I honestly believe he (and Red) are the kind of enemies you could justify the use of an X-Item against, albeit only one for Lance and two for Red (such is the level gap). I personally hate the idea of using X-Items in battle at this point, even though using them enabled me to win multiple type-based Nuzlockes (a Grass Monolocke in AS and Crystal, and a Harry Potter styled Monolocke in Crystal that involved only Fire, Fighting, Electric, and Water types IIRC).

I'm playing Crystal again, this time doing a standard Nuzlocke (albeit with one big caveat that enables me to breed for a very specific Pokemon)...and although my 6-mon team is a fair bit underleveled (not a single member was at L30 before fighting Jasmine; her Steelix is at L35), I rolled her over easily by exploiting type advantages. Chuck and Pryce weren't too tough either in spite of me being underleveled for both fights, albeit by fewer.

On the other hand, I'm also able to gain good amounts of EXP from beating mooks and bosses alike, and the level curve has so far actually been pretty easy to manage while still asking me to do better and not take risks too often. Hard to say if this will hold during the E4 + Lance fight or even against Clair, though I'm hoping for the best and gonna try to be careful.

 

[The Mind Electric]

Marlon is bad for the simple reason he thought Team Plasma ''might not be evil'' even after trying to freeze a city. Mind you, this is Ghetsis's Plasma, not the one from BW1 that had misguided but fundamentally decent people working alongside real jerks.

I get the impression that Marlon's ignorance is either:

1. A deliberate choice by the writers, to highlight that his carefree attitude has led to him knowing very little about what goes on outside his city. If it's not his city being attacked by Team Plasma, the organization could be literally anything to him.
2. A leftover snippet from a time in development when they wanted to make Neo Plasma more morally ambiguous like in B1/W1 before deciding to go for a more traditional straight-up evil team.

I'm inclined to think of 1 as more likely because everything else about his writing seems deliberate, but I wasn't in the room when they made this line so I can't say for sure.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I get the impression that Marlon's ignorance is either:

1. A deliberate choice by the writers, to highlight that his carefree attitude has led to him knowing very little about what goes on outside his city. If it's not his city being attacked by Team Plasma, the organization could be literally anything to him.
2. A leftover snippet from a time in development when they wanted to make Neo Plasma more morally ambiguous like in B1/W1 before deciding to go for a more traditional straight-up evil team.

I'm inclined to think of 1 as more likely because everything else about his writing seems deliberate, but I wasn't in the room when they made this line so I can't say for sure.

Interesting lol. Dude comes off really irresponsible compared to the leaders of the original BW then, they literally came to the call of GondoBianca and hold off the seven sages so you can go after N and Ghetsis. They should revoke his gym badge until he grows up haha.

To be fair the team is a BIT more morally ambiguous, albeit more in regards to specific characters (someone on the Plasma Frigate that is on the evil team but cares for Pokemon and doesn't like seeing them get hurt, to the point of healing your mon). There are more I think.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

To be fair the team is a BIT more morally ambiguous, albeit more in regards to specific characters (someone on the Plasma Frigate that is on the evil team but cares for Pokemon and doesn't like seeing them get hurt, to the point of healing your mon). There are more I think.

The most morally ambiguous person on Neo Team Plasma imo is Colress. The guy is a major figurehead in the BW2 iteration of Team Plasma, but frankly, it's clear that he's not evil in the slightest. But at the same time, he's also not morally good either. He's not doing his work for the sake of evil intentions, no intentions of specifically wanting to destroy or kill anyone or anything for emotional gain or out of any sort of malevolent intention. But he also lacks particular compassion during his research and doesn't consider the downsides of his outcomes.

Even so, at his core, he is a scientist, purely devoted to his work. He's doing what he does for the sake of science, fully devoted to achieving maximum scientific results and seeing the best possible ways to fulfill his scientific hypotheses. He tests and examines Team Plasma's methods and means to see what will come out of it, and he tests you, the player, and how you act with your Pokémon to test his scientific hypotheses and see what will come out of you.

He's a guy who is very much neither good nor evil in any way, shape, or form.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

The most morally ambiguous person on Neo Team Plasma imo is Colress. The guy is a major figurehead in the BW2 iteration of Team Plasma, but frankly, it's clear that he's not evil in the slightest. But at the same time, he's also not morally good either. He's not doing his work for the sake of evil intentions, no intentions of specifically wanting to destroy or kill anyone or anything for emotional gain or out of any sort of malevolent intention. But he also lacks particular compassion during his research and doesn't consider the downsides of his outcomes.

Even so, at his core, he is a scientist, purely devoted to his work. He's doing what he does for the sake of science, fully devoted to achieving maximum scientific results and seeing the best possible ways to fulfill his scientific hypotheses. He tests and examines Team Plasma's methods and means to see what will come out of it, and he tests you, the player, and how you act with your Pokémon to test his scientific hypotheses and see what will come out of you.

He's a guy who is very much neither good nor evil in any way, shape, or form.

Idk though. Colress DOES seem to genuinely hate Ghetsis, and given who Ghetsis is....I think while not necessarily ''good'', Colress does have good in him, he definitely has morals and values and unlike Marlon, is willing to stick to them. Dude rescues Lillie from him and sends him back home, even hoping that his loss at the hands of the player character could break him enough that he can be taken out in his original realm.

Maybe I'm being too harsh on Marlon lol, but maybe not.

Also, IIRC, Zinzolin (or Rood?) does turn good in the end in spite of being Ghetsis's ally. Tbf who knows about that dude, he made a ''heel face turn'' in BW too only to revert to Ghetsis's side again in BW2. Pokemon has some interesting antagonists IMO.

 

[R_N]

Marlon's not necessarily wrong, incidentally. In the post game Colress has the plasma ship and you've got grunts just kind of meandering around wondering what they should even bother doing now.

Unova also had the forgein rocket guy setteled down with a kid and a former magma & aqua grunt pair married and just living life.

Ghetsis is beyond the veil, and the grunts were definitely gung ho about being evil in the moment, but after the dust settles not everyone is necessarily up for a round 2 (or 3).

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Marlon's not necessarily wrong, incidentally. In the post game Colress has the plasma ship and you've got grunts just kind of meandering around wondering what they should even bother doing now.

Unova also had the forgein rocket guy setteled down with a kid and a former magma & aqua grunt pair married and just living life.

Ghetsis is beyond the veil, and the grunts were definitely gung ho about being evil in the moment, but after the dust settles not everyone is necessarily up for a round 2 (or 3).

True, but that doesn't really mean they're not evil or their actions should go unpunished. It's one thing to stop doing bad things for a genuinely good reason (i.e. N, Maxie, or Archie learning from the error of their ways), it's another to stop doing bad things because you lost
Regardless of whether they're meandering around now or not, the fact remains they were a genuine danger beforehand.

Your second example is about people unrelated to Team Plasma that have put their criminal pasts behind them.

 

[Wukong]

On the other hand, I'm also able to gain good amounts of EXP from beating mooks and bosses alike, and the level curve has so far actually been pretty easy to manage while still asking me to do better and not take risks too often. Hard to say if this will hold during the E4 + Lance fight or even against Clair, though I'm hoping for the best and gonna try to be careful.

Unfortunately, you will probably experience a spike at Clair then a big one at Lance. That's the problem with GSC that HGSS did not fix, was the pacing being so uneven. A lot of Johto is sleepwalking through easy routes and Gym Leaders like Pryce and Chuck (who I'll come back to) then randomly facing a boss like Lance who is hard for all the wrong reasons, because you don't have the resources to beat him fair, not because of some amazing strategy on his part.

Back to Chuck, on the topic of this thread I nominate him as the worst Gym Leader in the series. Being the 5th Gym in his region, to only have two Pokémon neither of which are native to his region, is pathetic. I mainly focused on higher stakes Champion fights in my original post but I consider Chuck the worst Gym, and quite possibly the worst overall boss fight in the series. Though Rocket Executives Petrel and Proton from the same game are serious contenders as well.

Zinzolin from B2W2 is also really bad. Really silly name and outfit in my opinion, along with using the Sinnoh native Weavile as his ace when Cyrus already did this in DPPt.

 

[khlaylav]

I dunno if the rivals really count as bosses per se, but I just swept Serena with a freakin Ninjask. That's sad.