All I have to say is FUCK.
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Saw Mafia
- Thread starter obi
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Just to clarify, here is exactly what happened:
I managed to get myself lynched by randwagoning and it turns out I'm the mafia. Cool, I have no problem with that, I wasn't out to ruin the game after I was dead.
However, then on IRC for whatever reason I decided to /whois Shiv. For those who don't know what that is, it shows all the channels that Shiv's on at the moment. What I got back was a list of channels including #bet which I naively assumed was a gamebot channel - in the same style as wittybot, mafiabot etc. I thought "cool, I'll check it out". So, /join #bet
[21:25:04] * Now talking in #bet
[21:25:04] * Topic is 'Betrayers are gonna win || make sure you tell me ALL your nicks so i can except them. || thisll help us remember. Betrayers: GetThunderStruck, the Lexx, Venom, Lord Gloom, SePh, Mr.378, CaptKirby, Minwu, West, Dak Ring Leader: Shiv Mole: Jackal Fairweather Friend: Judgement || guys night kill time.'
[21:25:04] * Set by Shiv on Fri Jan 11 15:43:55
WOAH. I just randomly stumbled upon a whole channel with every name of the other mafia in its topic. My first instinct of course was to PM my big boss, zerowing - this info was too great to keep to myself for the entire game. I thought it would just be bending the rules slightly - anyone could've stumbled onto that channel, it wasn't a unique ability to my role, and I just happened to have died a few hours before in a completely unrelated event. So, I PMed my boss with the channel topic. Then Shiv /msged me and I convinced me that it really would 'ruin' the game, so I sent another PM to my boss asking him to delete the one I sent him. Unfortunately it was too late, and although he agreed not to use the info he'd already seen the names.
Sorry guys, I acted on impulse, it wasn't like I was planning to ruin the game.
I managed to get myself lynched by randwagoning and it turns out I'm the mafia. Cool, I have no problem with that, I wasn't out to ruin the game after I was dead.
However, then on IRC for whatever reason I decided to /whois Shiv. For those who don't know what that is, it shows all the channels that Shiv's on at the moment. What I got back was a list of channels including #bet which I naively assumed was a gamebot channel - in the same style as wittybot, mafiabot etc. I thought "cool, I'll check it out". So, /join #bet
[21:25:04] * Now talking in #bet
[21:25:04] * Topic is 'Betrayers are gonna win || make sure you tell me ALL your nicks so i can except them. || thisll help us remember. Betrayers: GetThunderStruck, the Lexx, Venom, Lord Gloom, SePh, Mr.378, CaptKirby, Minwu, West, Dak Ring Leader: Shiv Mole: Jackal Fairweather Friend: Judgement || guys night kill time.'
[21:25:04] * Set by Shiv on Fri Jan 11 15:43:55
WOAH. I just randomly stumbled upon a whole channel with every name of the other mafia in its topic. My first instinct of course was to PM my big boss, zerowing - this info was too great to keep to myself for the entire game. I thought it would just be bending the rules slightly - anyone could've stumbled onto that channel, it wasn't a unique ability to my role, and I just happened to have died a few hours before in a completely unrelated event. So, I PMed my boss with the channel topic. Then Shiv /msged me and I convinced me that it really would 'ruin' the game, so I sent another PM to my boss asking him to delete the one I sent him. Unfortunately it was too late, and although he agreed not to use the info he'd already seen the names.
Sorry guys, I acted on impulse, it wasn't like I was planning to ruin the game.
Funnily enough, that's exactly what Blue Kirby did...
Yeah, the difference being that I wasn't dead, so I didn't really act out by revealing those names to my team. Turns out I didn't have a team, but the main thing is that I thought I did. I did a /whois on SePh though, not Shiv.
I must say, Mekkah did a good job of convincing me. I thought I was in danger as a Lustful, and then I PM'd the information to him, and then to Lord_Sunday and Gormenghast. We had it made, or so I thought.
I must say, Mekkah did a good job of convincing me. I thought I was in danger as a Lustful, and then I PM'd the information to him, and then to Lord_Sunday and Gormenghast. We had it made, or so I thought.
[11:41:12] <m0nkfish> i dont see what difference it makes
[11:41:27] <m0nkfish> yeah i was dead but it doesnt matter at what time i made the discovery
[11:41:56] <m0nkfish> its not like obi pms you with the roles of everyone when and only when you are dead
[11:42:13] <m0nkfish> i could have found that list 5 hours earlier and the impact on the game would have been exactly the same
assuming that had happened, would the game still have been cancelled? since the impact was the same, what difference is there?
[11:41:27] <m0nkfish> yeah i was dead but it doesnt matter at what time i made the discovery
[11:41:56] <m0nkfish> its not like obi pms you with the roles of everyone when and only when you are dead
[11:42:13] <m0nkfish> i could have found that list 5 hours earlier and the impact on the game would have been exactly the same
assuming that had happened, would the game still have been cancelled? since the impact was the same, what difference is there?
In any case, revealing the roles after you were dead was sort of DUMB.
Finding it five hours earlier would have made all the difference. Had I stumbled across the channel after dying, I would've kept my mouth shut, if only out of respect for the other players in the game.
If you had found it five hours earlier, like you say, the game would've been much the same as it is now, only it would still be going. The fact that you found it and sent it when you shouldn't have, however, means that you unfairly placed your faction at an advantage - the impact of which was huge. The alliance between the two Mafia factions would have been blind, anything could have happened.
Also, if you stood by your actions making no impact, you wouldn't have just made a post justifying the way you acted. The fact is, you went against the way the game is played, and for that reason, it had to end. The rules explicitly state "you get no dying breath."
If you had found it five hours earlier, like you say, the game would've been much the same as it is now, only it would still be going. The fact that you found it and sent it when you shouldn't have, however, means that you unfairly placed your faction at an advantage - the impact of which was huge. The alliance between the two Mafia factions would have been blind, anything could have happened.
Also, if you stood by your actions making no impact, you wouldn't have just made a post justifying the way you acted. The fact is, you went against the way the game is played, and for that reason, it had to end. The rules explicitly state "you get no dying breath."
right
That's a big 'if'. The fact of the matter is that isn't how it went down. I understand that you acted off impulse, but digging your heels in now isn't going to help.
The simple fact that you broke the rules which had already been explicitly posted makes all the difference. Justify the impact your actions had all you want, but the bottom line is you were in the wrong on this one.
It's not as if the rule is even in dispute; it existed before this all took place. That should be enough of a reason in itself. The bottom line is that you changed the course of the game after dying, which you're not allowed to do.
i think the main issue is the fact that the turning point rested on whether you could keep #bet to yourself even though you were dead. the extreme value of the information (giving your mafia the alignment of everyone in thee game) magnifies the rule you broke, even if it was only by 5 hours
Yeah, I was wrong to break the rule about talking after death. Does that mean the game should be cancelled? Fuck no. The reason it was cancelled is because people found out about the IRC channel. Consider the two cases:
- I'm dead but I discover that Shiv is mafia. I PM zerowing saying "I think Shiv is mafia". The game continues even though I broke the rules.
- I'm alive and I discover the list of Betrayers. I PM zerowing with the list and everyone finds out who the Betrayers are. Does the game continue? If so, what difference is there between me being alive or dead?
- I'm dead but I discover that Shiv is mafia. I PM zerowing saying "I think Shiv is mafia". The game continues even though I broke the rules.
- I'm alive and I discover the list of Betrayers. I PM zerowing with the list and everyone finds out who the Betrayers are. Does the game continue? If so, what difference is there between me being alive or dead?
Just because you can justify the scenario happening, it doesn't mean it's okay. Also, there's a massive difference between "I think Shiv is mafia" and "Hey here's a list of all the Betrayers I found on IRC".
I did it while I was alive, and I took the dive and trusted someone I assumed to be on my team. There is no problem with doing it while you're alive, because that's exactly what I did after finding out. Being alive, I was still within my means to change the outcome of the game. However, you changed the course of the game after being knocked out, which understandably is an entirely different matter.
OK, your argument is that once you're out of the game, you shouldn't have ANY impact on the result. I agree. I shouldn't have talked when I was dead, that was dumb of me.
My argument is that the fact that I talked when I was dead was not the cause of the cancellation. It was, as you say, the weight of the information that I gave, not my status in the game. Suppose I'd found the info while I was alive, the forums had somehow malfunctioned and my PM had been delayed by a few hours until after I was dead. The state of the game is then exactly the same as it was when it ended. If in this case Obi hadn't ended it, then I don't see his reasoning for ending it in the real scenario. The only reason for ending the game is that in its current state it has become somehow broken or unplayable. Obviously I'd need input from Obi to confirm this, but I believe my argument still stands.
My argument is that the fact that I talked when I was dead was not the cause of the cancellation. It was, as you say, the weight of the information that I gave, not my status in the game. Suppose I'd found the info while I was alive, the forums had somehow malfunctioned and my PM had been delayed by a few hours until after I was dead. The state of the game is then exactly the same as it was when it ended. If in this case Obi hadn't ended it, then I don't see his reasoning for ending it in the real scenario. The only reason for ending the game is that in its current state it has become somehow broken or unplayable. Obviously I'd need input from Obi to confirm this, but I believe my argument still stands.
I believe it's one thing for the game to become seemingly unplayable. When it's all over, that can be put down to a bad decision in setting up the channel, or something like that. It's another thing altogether for the game to become unplayable due to a player acting after being removed from that game.
I was under the impression that the game was closed because it was now "in dispute". The current status of the game could be put down to "m0nkfish acting where he shouldn't have"; people would complain about how it turned out, and the game would be no longer fun for those involved. Yet, if you had found it before you were dead, the situation could be put down to nothing more than an unfortunate scenario for those who set up #bet.
That's just my take on the scenario. Obviously Obi clarifying this will give us closure in that regard.
I was under the impression that the game was closed because it was now "in dispute". The current status of the game could be put down to "m0nkfish acting where he shouldn't have"; people would complain about how it turned out, and the game would be no longer fun for those involved. Yet, if you had found it before you were dead, the situation could be put down to nothing more than an unfortunate scenario for those who set up #bet.
That's just my take on the scenario. Obviously Obi clarifying this will give us closure in that regard.
I see monkfish's point. Not that I agree with it 100%, but it definitely is a good argument.
The only thing I would say is: the point of the game is to kill people to remove them from the game, and so to have that team's ability to operate effectively reduced. If dead people just keep helping out their team, discussing it with them, giving them information, then no team is impaired when someone is killed. So from that point of view, you shouldn't have spread the info monkfish.
As for the game, gsumbreon was to die in the current night.
Mekkah was being blackmailed to see if he had any special powers.
Next day, Mekkah was to be lynched by a Betrayer/Wrathful alliance. This was to avoid the stalker saving him.
The mafia alliance probably would have continued, as zerowing had the info on all the Betrayers (I thought the Betrayers had given it him willingly at this stage). Then when the Lustful were all but done, we (the Wrathful) were going to spectacularly kill them all and win the game woohoo! Or so was the plan...
No wonder Mekkah had so much info, what with the Lustful having a psychic.
Alternative ending to "monkfish messed it up":
The Lustful, Betrayers, Wrathful and Mafia decide to put aside their differences, as they have all seen the error of their ways in a moment of epiphany.
They storm through the house, find Obi, and savagely pull him to pieces for bringing them into his twisted game. Everyone wins!
The bad guy is supposed to die, and Obi was the biggest baddest guy in the game!
The only thing I would say is: the point of the game is to kill people to remove them from the game, and so to have that team's ability to operate effectively reduced. If dead people just keep helping out their team, discussing it with them, giving them information, then no team is impaired when someone is killed. So from that point of view, you shouldn't have spread the info monkfish.
As for the game, gsumbreon was to die in the current night.
Mekkah was being blackmailed to see if he had any special powers.
Next day, Mekkah was to be lynched by a Betrayer/Wrathful alliance. This was to avoid the stalker saving him.
The mafia alliance probably would have continued, as zerowing had the info on all the Betrayers (I thought the Betrayers had given it him willingly at this stage). Then when the Lustful were all but done, we (the Wrathful) were going to spectacularly kill them all and win the game woohoo! Or so was the plan...
No wonder Mekkah had so much info, what with the Lustful having a psychic.
Alternative ending to "monkfish messed it up":
The Lustful, Betrayers, Wrathful and Mafia decide to put aside their differences, as they have all seen the error of their ways in a moment of epiphany.
They storm through the house, find Obi, and savagely pull him to pieces for bringing them into his twisted game. Everyone wins!
The bad guy is supposed to die, and Obi was the biggest baddest guy in the game!
First of all, no, I wasn't in the game, but I was still reading it.
Does Amanda after getting her powers activated show up as dead to everyone but herself?
And if so, can she get killed by someone who has some kind of power to do so, if that person knows she's still alive?
The other option that I see is that everyone gets to know that she was going to get killed, but managed to survive.
Does Amanda after getting her powers activated show up as dead to everyone but herself?
And if so, can she get killed by someone who has some kind of power to do so, if that person knows she's still alive?
The other option that I see is that everyone gets to know that she was going to get killed, but managed to survive.
Man, you should have seen my inbox. I had an awesome alliance between me, Gormenghast, gsumbreon, Lord_Sunday, Hyra and Portugeez (all special roles besides the smooth talker (mayor)) and I was a Lustful!
i dont know if the entire lustful side knew everything or just mekkah, but the wrathful were gonna kill gsumbreon on this night and we were gonna try and kill mekkah, if mekkah was protected we were gonna team up with wrathful to lynch mekkah (we had the numbers)
Wrathfuls were definitely gonna win this easily through the mafia alliance...which is sort of lame because you just screw over the Lustfuls big time just for some sort of 50/50 chance to win yourself, but that's the game I guess.
Anyway, this is what I had gathered. Major credit to Gormenghast for telling me the roles, gsumbreon for cleaning and inspecting some, Blue_Kirby for finding #bet (and not knowing what his role was while Gorm and I did all along, hrhr) and Lord_Sunday for giving the Psychic AIDs.
1. Max - ???
2. Lord Gloom - Betrayer
3. Gormenghast - Clean
4. Shiv - Betrayer (leader)
5. Jackal - Betrayer (Mole)
6. StrangerDanger - ??? (PMed me)
7. BlueKirby - Probably clean, PMed me
8. Fishin - ???
9. Mr .378 - Betrayer
10. Thunderpup - ???, could be clean
11. m0nkfish: Wrathful (dead)
12. SePh - Betrayer
13. Pidgeot79 - ??? (Mason of some sorts with bulblax)
14. Lord_Sunday - Rapist
15. Hipmonlee: Lustful
16. Dak - Betrayer
17. Mekkah - Best Lustful Ever
18. Hyra - Clean, PMed me
19. Venom - Betrayer
20. cookie - Clean
21. CaptKirby - Betrayer
22. Judgement - Betrayer (Fair Weather Friend)
23. Basics: Lustful
24. the Lexx - Betrayer
25. gmax - ???
26. West - Betrayer
27. Zephyrman - ??? (PMed me)
28. Portugeez - ???, quite probably clean
29. cook - ???
30. WER - ???, is being inspected
31. gsumbreon - Clean, PMed me and pretty much confirmed
32. GetThunderStruck - Betrayer
33. R2-D2-Rules! - ??? (got attacked by m0nkfish first, who was Wrathful, so probably clean)
34. Bioshock: Lustful
35. Minwu - Betrayer
36. Isy - ???
37. Bulblax - ??? (Mason of some sorts with Pidgeot79)
38. zerowing - ??? (accused by Shiv of being Wrathful)
39. JimBob - ???, PMed me claiming Lustful
40. koalakid - ??? ?_?
41. Havak - ???, smart guy
42. Pillowrath - ???
i dont know if the entire lustful side knew everything or just mekkah, but the wrathful were gonna kill gsumbreon on this night and we were gonna try and kill mekkah, if mekkah was protected we were gonna team up with wrathful to lynch mekkah (we had the numbers)
Wrathfuls were definitely gonna win this easily through the mafia alliance...which is sort of lame because you just screw over the Lustfuls big time just for some sort of 50/50 chance to win yourself, but that's the game I guess.
Anyway, this is what I had gathered. Major credit to Gormenghast for telling me the roles, gsumbreon for cleaning and inspecting some, Blue_Kirby for finding #bet (and not knowing what his role was while Gorm and I did all along, hrhr) and Lord_Sunday for giving the Psychic AIDs.
1. Max - ???
2. Lord Gloom - Betrayer
3. Gormenghast - Clean
4. Shiv - Betrayer (leader)
5. Jackal - Betrayer (Mole)
6. StrangerDanger - ??? (PMed me)
7. BlueKirby - Probably clean, PMed me
8. Fishin - ???
9. Mr .378 - Betrayer
10. Thunderpup - ???, could be clean
11. m0nkfish: Wrathful (dead)
12. SePh - Betrayer
13. Pidgeot79 - ??? (Mason of some sorts with bulblax)
14. Lord_Sunday - Rapist
15. Hipmonlee: Lustful
16. Dak - Betrayer
17. Mekkah - Best Lustful Ever
18. Hyra - Clean, PMed me
19. Venom - Betrayer
20. cookie - Clean
21. CaptKirby - Betrayer
22. Judgement - Betrayer (Fair Weather Friend)
23. Basics: Lustful
24. the Lexx - Betrayer
25. gmax - ???
26. West - Betrayer
27. Zephyrman - ??? (PMed me)
28. Portugeez - ???, quite probably clean
29. cook - ???
30. WER - ???, is being inspected
31. gsumbreon - Clean, PMed me and pretty much confirmed
32. GetThunderStruck - Betrayer
33. R2-D2-Rules! - ??? (got attacked by m0nkfish first, who was Wrathful, so probably clean)
34. Bioshock: Lustful
35. Minwu - Betrayer
36. Isy - ???
37. Bulblax - ??? (Mason of some sorts with Pidgeot79)
38. zerowing - ??? (accused by Shiv of being Wrathful)
39. JimBob - ???, PMed me claiming Lustful
40. koalakid - ??? ?_?
41. Havak - ???, smart guy
42. Pillowrath - ???
Sure. I'll join.
I'd be up for another one. No doubt my role will be no where near as cool, but I'll cling to the small chance that it might ...
Now that i know you don't need IRC to play it, i'm definately signing up for the next one
I'm in, too.
#bet had a global ban and was a secret channel, all the Betrayers were on the Exception list, but somehow all of this disappeared, so that everyone could join, we didn't notice that until it was too late.
The bad thing about this was, that the channel wasn't even used after Night 1, Shiv set up a Betrayer Forum, so it wasn't really needed anymore.
#bet had a global ban and was a secret channel, all the Betrayers were on the Exception list, but somehow all of this disappeared, so that everyone could join, we didn't notice that until it was too late.
The bad thing about this was, that the channel wasn't even used after Night 1, Shiv set up a Betrayer Forum, so it wasn't really needed anymore.
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