Metagame BDSP Doubles OU

[GraylyHen94]

I ran some calcs about Sand Veil Garchomp, turns out everything has a 75% chance to hit it at best and I'm talkin the best of EV spreads. It will take all of two seconds and two brain cells to see how awful that ability is for the meta. There is no other reason to use Tyranitar other than to try and cheat the game with Bright Powder bullshit. Cleanse the fields of this infernal device

 

[Darkmalice]

I ran some calcs about Sand Veil Garchomp, turns out everything has a 75% chance to hit it at best and I'm talkin the best of EV spreads.

Why do you need calcs to know that there is a 75% chance to hit Garchomp with Sand Veil?

 

[Candy Corn]

I definitely think sand veil should be banned. It's an inherently uncompetitive ability and it allows garchomp, one of the best mons in the format to cheese wins. Comparing it to swagger ban in gens like BW, it looks even worse as sand veil is solely used for the rng factor. As Kyle has demonstrated, a poorly built team can easily be successful simply because of rng favoring them. Bdsp doubles ladder isn't too hard to climb, so hitting rank one with a sand veil team may not be the most convincing way of showing how uncompetitive it is, but at the same time it's all the format has currently so it should be taken seriously to a degree. Overall I think it doesn't make much sense to keep around and I personally feel it needs to go.

 

[GraylyHen94]

I made a list of Trick Room setters that I'd use. They all have some benefit or another, course we're all gonna gravitate towards Cress anyways. EV spreads are nice, most are designed to live Specs Lati Draco or +2 EQ from Garchomp. Give them a try and if there's better bulk spreads post them

P2 has good bulk even without Eviolite, good coverage, Recover is solid, one weakness, and Trace can be clutch. Download is there but I have been a Trace loyalist all my life. EVs are here https://pastebin.com/t9j6XeFb

Cresselia is Cress, nihil novum sub sole

Slowbro is interesting with solid bulk, burst healing in Regenerator + Sitrus, Oblivious is strong but Taunt isn't that common and the opponent may assume that you have it so they don't click Taunt (this is not the most solid plan, don't count on it if the game depends on it), plus great coverage. Lives Specs Lati Draco

Gardevoir is a solid offensive Mon, especially considering she's the only Fairy type attacker in the game (Azu doesn't count due to personal reasons). She can be EV'd a little to live Bullet Punch from Scizor but only if he has no boost on it. That bulk isn't a horrible investment but you're way better off just switching into a resist or using Intimidate. She can also take two non-LO Garchomp EQs if you have Sitrus on her and invest a little, but again Intimidate is married to her gameplay. In the end she's very frail but she is cool

Bronzong with Levitate is awesome. Imprison prevents Protect stalling, he has great bulk, and his Gyro Balls hurt. Old reliable

Eggy is cool and one of the boys (the boys). The only weaknesses he should really be concerned about are Bug (just Scizor), Fire, and Ice. The others aren't as common so you don't have to be so afraid of his typing. The resistances to Water, Psychic, Ground, Grass, Fighting, and Electric are all awesome plus he's immune to Spore. Leaf Storm fucks and Psychic is always there for you. You can ditch Protect for Sleep Powder if you like to live dangerously

https://pokepast.es/d9eb4c6cb482488d

 

[GraylyHen94]

I made a quick roles compendium in my free time. Not all of the Mons are viable it's just what I wrote, go out there and use the sauce Mons

Intimidate

Snarl

Spread Damage
Earthquake:

Heat Wave:

Muddy Water:

Rock Slide:

Dazzling Gleam:

Blizzard:

Wide Guard:

Speed Control

Tailwind

Thunder Wave

//

(Nuzzle)

Trick Room

https://pokepast.es/d9eb4c6cb482488d Setters
https://pastebin.com/eCYhCK9S Attackers

Icy Wind

Quash

Priority
Extreme Speed:

Ice Shard:

Bullet Punch:

Mach Punch:

Aqua Jet:

Sucker Punch:

Fake Out

Weather
Rain:

//

Sun:

//

Sand:

(no Sand Veil, ban that shit)

Hail:

(bottom text)

Status
Will-o-Wisp:

Thunder Wave:

//

(Nuzzle)

Sleep:

Encore:

Taunt

Screens

Inner Focus

Pivots
Volt Switch:

U-Turn:

Redirection
Follow Me/Rage Powder:

Abilities:

Status Immunity

 

[GraylyHen94]

Some EV spreads for a few Mons. Rough WIP, I've been working six days a week for Christmas season

https://pastebin.com/u/GraylyHen94

Mons done
Heatran, Porygon2, support Gyarados, tank Garchomp, Gastrodon, Togekiss, TR Luxray, TR Khan, bulky 3 attacks Manaphy, Flame Orb Milotic

On a side note, I'm finding myself less attracted to Rotom-Wash and more fond of Gyarados when it comes to defensive Water types. Most physical Mons carry Lum which means Rotom has to spend two turns clicking Wisp. This means he's vulnerable to Protect, misses, redirection, and costs you momentum. I initially used Rotom to help fight Garchomp but Gyarados is just outright better at that. Higher bulk + the ETB of Intimidate means he gets his act going right out of the gate, TWave to support the team, and Ice Fang to Smash Garchomp. Only thing he really fears is a Rock move, but most Garchomps run SD anyways. Gyarados also hits much harder with Waterfall and doesn't miss with it like Hydro Pump does. Much higher expected value on the young man

 

[variationonatheme]

Initially, this Meta seems more interesting than Gen 8 DOU (which I still find to be almost unplayable). There are a lot of good thoughts/info posted in this thread (GraylyHen94 in particular is putting in a lot of work, which is very cool). I think we're in the very early stages of exploring the Meta, so I wouldn't rush to ban Sand Veil because one weird team featuring it got to the top of the ladder. The guy who has been at the top of the BDSP DOU ladder for at least the last week or so has a mono water team (same guy who beat me to it on the Gen 7 DOU ladder incidentally), featuring (if I'm remembering correctly) Seaking, among others. Water definitely seems more viable than in Gen 8, and is certainly a potential counter for sand, so let's see how things play out. A suspect with this ladder could be fun and maybe a way to get some more community involvement going (as recently, things have seemed a bit, um, dead).

 

[GraylyHen94]

Initially, this Meta seems more interesting than Gen 8 DOU (which I still find to be almost unplayable). There are a lot of good thoughts/info posted in this thread (GraylyHen94 in particular is putting in a lot of work, which is very cool). I think we're in the very early stages of exploring the Meta, so I wouldn't rush to ban Sand Veil because one weird team featuring it got to the top of the ladder. The guy who has been at the top of the BDSP DOU ladder for at least the last week or so has a mono water team (same guy who beat me to it on the Gen 7 DOU ladder incidentally), featuring (if I'm remembering correctly) Seaking, among others. Water definitely seems more viable than in Gen 8, and is certainly a potential counter for sand, so let's see how things play out. A suspect with this ladder could be fun and maybe a way to get some more community involvement going (as recently, things have seemed a bit, um, dead).

Thank you for the compliment

Sand Veil is nothing, it serves zero purpose, we should ban Sand Veil NOW, and give the rest of us a piece of that bullshit in the top tiers that's shitted up so we can breath inside this sand trapped meta. Like what is it even here for? So it can dodge me? Ban Sand Veil, and I mean that with a hundred percent with a thousand percent

 

[GraylyHen94]

Eggy (Exeggutor) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 84 SpA / 160 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Trick Room
- Protect
- Psychic

Eggy is a badass Trick Room setter. His bulk, Sp Atk, immunity to Spore, resistances, and burst healing in Sitrus Harvest set him apart from other TR setters. His only concerning weaknesses to me are Fire, Ice, Bug, and Dark. I can't think of any Poison, Flying (besides Togekiss), and Ghost Mons that are very present. I have him calced to take Lati Draco, Adamant TTar Crunch, and left the rest to boost his big Leaf Storms. His resistances to Water, Ground, Psychic, Fighting, Grass, and Electric are clutch in this meta. I greatly appreciate his presence on TR teams. Great partners are Gyarados and Heatran to form a FWG core that support each other

Ganbo (Gyarados) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Atk / 52 Def / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Fang
- Protect

Ganbo (Gyarados) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Atk / 52 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Protect
- Taunt

Gyarados has been huge for me as an Intimidate Mon. Great set of resistances, immunity to Earthquake, awesome bulk, great Attack stat, just the right Speed, everything you need. Weaknesses to Rock and Electric are highly manageable. Garchomp forms a strong core with him, covering each other when they need bulk or damage. EQ is free next to Gyarados. Any fast Mons can be shut down with TWave, or if he's running the second TR set you can Taunt what you need to. I haven't tried out Dragon Dance and I don't care to. His expected value comes from his stellar bulk and utility. Gyarados is a top Mon in my eyes, he's never let me down. I've included calcs for the first set in the pastebin below

https://pastebin.com/TTHcnwyf

White Eyes (Luxray) (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 180 HP / 144 Def / 68 SpA / 116 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Baby-Doll Eyes
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Fang

I tried out Luxray from seeing a friend use her. He had Helping Hand and Snarl, I opted for Baby-Doll Eyes and Ice Fang. She's been surprisingly useful. Intimidate is much stronger than Wisp due to it's ETB nature and not being blocked by Lum Berry. I actually think that using Wisp to beat physical Mons is tough because of how useful Lum is. Intimidate + priority Baby-Doll Eyes is a strong trait. She's got more bulk than I had imagined and can eat even a neutral LO Garchomp EQ most of the time. TBolt, Volt Switch, and Baby-Doll Eyes are excellent traits for a TR team. She's unconventional but I haven't felt like it's a hair brained idea to use her. Snarl is a big waste on most Mons unless they're fast enough to reduce special damage first, like Raikou, so I won't be using that. The momentum of Volt Switch and Ice Fang to nail Garchomp are strong enough for me to seriously consider her for my TR teams. Calcs below

https://pastebin.com/tU9v684W

 

[GraylyHen94]

Made a TR guide vid. Some of the Mons are too far of an off shoot but it's the wild west so do what you want. Merry Christmas, everyone

Why Sun sucks

Intimidate

 

[Meminger21]

Now that I've been eliminated from the BDSP Doubles Playoffs I'd like to share my opinion on the metagame, my personal VR and some teams that I used and I liked.

Opinion on the metagame

I really liked playing this tour and I think the metagame is great. Latios is definitely the best pokemon but I think it's very balanced and there's plenty of counterplay to that. The amount of usable pokemon isn't as big as SS but there are a lot of different options to build with and I really liked building for this tier.

Personal VR:

Tier 1: (ordered)

Nothing can take its hits well, decent bulky and sets TW. Really hard to build without it imo (apart from weather and TR teams).

Best Follow Me user, Dragon and Ground immunity and can be a huge threat offensively with Nasty Plot and Scope Lens.

Checks Latios, Cresselia and Togekiss. DD set can also be a huge threat.

Tier 2: (ordered)

Really bulky and the best TR setter. With the right support CM sets can be really threatening.

One of the few pokemon that can learn Fake Out, also has Intimidate, Wide Guard and fighting STAB.

Really fast and after +3 very few pokemon can resist its hits.

One of the best wallbreaker imo. After one Nasty Plot the only mon that can take its attacks well are dragon types (Lati@s). Can also check Scizor and Manaphy without Energy Ball (lol).

Really slow, but under TW a huge threat spreading Spores. Great check to Ttar.

SD is nice but is walled by Fire-types, on rain or paired with Gastrodon can be very deadly.

Paired with Togekiss it can avoid Latios attacks and use powerful Earthquakes, threatening opposing Togekiss with Stone Edge or Poison Jab. It's really hard to use SD in a match tho.

Under TR it destroys everything and has access to Fake Out.

Tier 3:

One of the fastest pokemon on the tier, can be used as a utility mon with Snarl and can check a lot of theats, such as Manaphy, Lati@s, Togekiss, Cresselia and Suicune. On Rain team can also be good. Has trouble against Garchomp, Ttar and Breloom tho.

Sets TW and checks some pokemon like other water-types, but I think it's too passive.

Latios is overall better, but on bulkier teams it is good with CM.

Could be higher since CB tear almost every team and Belly Drum on TR teams is very deadly, but it's too slow and needs some support to work.

Access to CC, Snarl and Intimidate makes Arcanine a really good pokemon, the problem is that it doesn't check as much pokemons as it could, Garchomp, Latios and Water-types for example.

Scald, Ice Beam and Earth Power can check a lot of the most used pokemons, with Storm Drain it can help teammates that really suffer with Water-types. Its too frail tho, being unable to realibly check Latios for example.

Checks Togekiss and Latios but can't deal well with water-types and a number of other pokemons. Substitute set can be quite annoying to deal against.

Sets TW and has Taunt and U-Turn. I don't think it's very good, but I saw a lot of people using it and having success with.

Rain is always powerful.

Tier 4: (usable Pokemon)

Immune to Fake Out and Intimidate, has Sacred Fire and ground coverage. Could be higher

Has Intimidate and DD, but you basically sacrifice a water-type slot on the team. Could be higher.

Has Competitive, being able to abuse Intimidate. Could be higher.

Nice on Rain and I used it once outside of rain with Fake Out, Low Sweep and Poison Jab and it kinda worked.

TR setter

Prankster TW

Rage Powder and Sleep Power are nice. Might work on sun.

Paired with Garchomp can be annoying, but lost Hurricane :(

I think there are better Nasty Plot users, but BoltBeam coverage is always nice.

I tried Screens with Rocks and it looks decent.

Has Intimidate and DD.

Might be good on TR.

Works well on rain with Lightning Rod and has Fake Out.

Never seen it but might be good.

Sun might be usable.


Teams:


I think Gastrodon is really nice and can check a lot of the most used pokemons and offensive Togekiss can be very threatening


CM Cresselia is also really good and it can set TR for Azumarill and Breloom. Azumarill doesn't need Belly Drum to hit really strong.

 

[King of Slack]

I think its worth emphasizing more how dominant trick room teams are in BDSP. Almost every high elo battle I find myself in is vs TR. One of the most popular setters being Dusknoir, not Cress.

 

[Admiral Kirk]

What is the status of a ban on Snow Cloak/Sand Veil in this format? I've seen some discussion about it here of course but is there a reason they didn't end up getting banned?
I'm no expert but I would also support a ban of Dark Void– it feels even worse than those abilities in terms of how much is left to chance. But I'm no expert so maybe it doesn't really deserve a ban.

 

[Meminger21]

What is the status of a ban on Snow Cloak/Sand Veil in this format? I've seen some discussion about it here of course but is there a reason they didn't end up getting banned?
I'm no expert but I would also support a ban of Dark Void– it feels even worse than those abilities in terms of how much is left to chance. But I'm no expert so maybe it doesn't really deserve a ban.

This format is basically dead so I doubt anyone will put effort in suspecting something

 

[Paraplegic]

(placeholder image cause idk what else to put)
With the recent release of Darkrai, Yoda2798 and I are electing to ban dark void from this tier. It has never been legal in a dou meta, and especially considering it has the exact same mechanics as sm in which its banned despite terrains being near omnipresent in the tier, we see no reason to allow it within this meta.

tagging DaWoblefet and Kris to please ban dark void from BDSP DOU, thanks!

 

[Admiral Kirk]

Will Darkrai be staying then? I notice the original post for this thread says that Darkrai should be banned (re-read it after my first post haha), is that no longer the case?

 

[GraylyHen94]

(placeholder image cause idk what else to put)
With the recent release of Darkrai, Yoda2798 and I are electing to ban dark void from this tier. It has never been legal in a dou meta, and especially considering it has the exact same mechanics as sm in which its banned despite terrains being near omnipresent in the tier, we see no reason to allow it within this meta.

tagging DaWoblefet and Kris to please ban dark void from BDSP DOU, thanks!

Can you now elect to ban Sand Veil and Snow Cloak so that the people who do enjoy this format don't have to suffer from bullshit?

 

[Arcticblast]

With the integration of Pokemon Home, Celebi and Deoxys should now be legal. Celebi is properly listed as legal, but Deoxys seems to have not been. DaWoblefet

If Deo-A (or even Deo-N) ends up being too much, we can talk about banning it. We're still keeping the evasion abilities around for now.

On a mostly unrelated note, I'm a little upset that Home actually wipes moves off of Pokemon that are transferred into the game. While not having Toxic on literally everything is nice, some Pokemon lose some really nice moves, like Cresselia and Icy Wind.

 

[latios777]

This tier needs sleep clause for sure. If you like to play without it....play battle festival doubles or VGC. Breloom, Venusaur in sun and other less relevant mons are just unhealthy (not enough broken, though). Sleep is uncompetitive so I think that implementing sleep clause is a great idea.

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

This tier needs sleep clause for sure. If you like to play without it....play battle festival doubles or VGC. Breloom, Venusaur in sun and other less relevant mons are just unhealthy (not enough broken, though). Sleep is uncompetitive so I think that implementing sleep clause is a great idea.

this tier just totally ded unfort. unless more good players pick it up nothing rly happening to it. deo and shay got added recently deo looks possibly broken but no interest in the tier

 

[GraylyHen94]

This tier needs sleep clause for sure. If you like to play without it....play battle festival doubles or VGC. Breloom, Venusaur in sun and other less relevant mons are just unhealthy (not enough broken, though). Sleep is uncompetitive so I think that implementing sleep clause is a great idea.

Sleep is extremely strong with the new speed control changes even if I think Lum Berry is viable again. I think one of the biggest failures of this format, other than the jannies not banning Sand Veil, is that the devs decided that not only will they not add move tutors but they'll also straight delete moves imported from Pokemon Home. It's hurt every tier possible and left some Mons dead in the water permanently. I loved this meta when it came out but between fighting game grinding and the shit parts of the gen I lost my drive for it. Rest in peace BDSP DOU, you were almost the best doubles meta of all time

 

[PumpedAaron]

I've been getting some cool wins with my half-mono fighting team! Hitmontop Machamp and Poliwrath are such gigachads! Will edit this later with a more thorough analysis. I'm sure some of you are scoffing at half-mono fighting, but it works! I challenge you to try it and see for yourself. Bulk Up, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, Fake Out, Feint, Spore. These are all excellent support moves. If Normal Ice Steel Rock Dark types are ever popular, you know who to call!

Also, Battle Fest ladder please.

 

[GraylyHen94]

I've been getting some cool wins with my half-mono fighting team! Hitmontop Machamp and Poliwrath are such gigachads! Will edit this later with a more thorough analysis. I'm sure some of you are scoffing at half-mono fighting, but it works! I challenge you to try it and see for yourself. Bulk Up, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, Fake Out, Feint, Spore. These are all excellent support moves. If Normal Ice Steel Rock Dark types are ever popular, you know who to call!

Also, Battle Fest ladder please.

Poliwrath sounds epic with his bulk and typing plus he can blank some Rain Mons with Water Absorb. What's the whole team?