Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[That_Dwayneee]

Remember when we used to think regieleki was entirely worthless because of it's inability to hit ground types effectively ? It took some time for minds to change and realize he actually had some merit, because of it's unsurpassed speed and access to rapid spin, as well as it's ability to put huge pressure on electric immune mons just by existing in the team preview, as losing them would mean almost certain death at the hands of electro kid. Just like we did for eleki, I think it's time to start considering the other (much cooler) newborn member of the regi family for OU...

View attachment 421617 UR -> C

Now hold on just a second before reacting to this post with a "haha" emoji and moving on. This is not a joke, this is not a meme, I'm being fully serious here; I have played over 200 games, testing Regidrago amongside various teams on the ladder over the past weeks and I genuinely believe it has some competitive merit. I'm not saying it's the next big thing, or even a really good mon, but just like a lot of other C-rankers, it has a few unique characteristics that can allow it to shine under the right circumstances. So what are those characteristics exactly, you might ask ? Let's get into it.

I. What the heck is a 'Regidrago' ?

Let's start with the basics; As the mon is currently NUBL, it wouldn't be a surprise if you weren't exactly familiar with what it does. Regidrago is a dragon-type pokemon with a stat distribution of 200/100/50/100/50/80 and the ability Dragon's Maw, which powers-up dragon-type moves it uses by 50%. So it's just a slow but bulky regieleki then ? Not exactly. Where regieleki's signature move Thunder Cage isn't really something to write home about, Regidrago's signature move is what I believe makes it worth using in OU; Dragon Energy. This move is dragon-type Eruption/Water Spout, and in combination with Dragon's Maw, it makes this mon unwallable by anything not pink, cute and cuddly. Let's see why.

II. The set + Important Calcs

Regidrago @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Energy
- Dragon Pulse
- Ancient Power
- Draco Meteor/Explosion

With max speed evs Regidrago hits 259 speed, allowing it to outspeed almost every defensive mon in the tier, including most defensive Lando-T spreads and a decent portion of slower offensive mons, up to modest Volcanion. When you consider that the meta right now favors slow and bulky teams rather than fast offensive ones, this isn't so bad. Moreoever, even uninvested, its HP hits a massive 541, meaning the few defensive mons that do outspeed it such as fast rotom-wash are unable to hit it with anything powerful enough to deter it from just clicking Dragon Energy anyways. This bulk also allows it to live most unboosted hits and some boosted ones as well, effectively acting as a one-time sweep stopper if you keep it healthy through the game. Ancient Power (and Explosion) are there to hit fairies on the switch to either chip them for later or eliminate them for your team at the cost of drago's life. Draco Meteor is also an option to have a stronger stab when you're low or outsped, and even though I prefer explosion, it does nab a few OHKOs that pulse fails to guarantee, such as dnite through multiscale or Nihilego. Here are some calcs to illustrate the set's power:

vs Walls/Resists:

Spoiler

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 163-192 (46.3 - 54.5%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 259-306 (64.9 - 76.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 387-456 (54.2 - 63.8%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 174-204 (45 - 52.8%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Landorus-Therian: 459-541 (120.1 - 141.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 282-333 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

as you can see, there is no walling this. Here are some more calcs to show how it trades vs offensive mons:

Spoiler

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regidrago: 382-450 (70.6 - 83.1%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 339-400 (130.8 - 154.4%)

+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regidrago: 306-360 (56.5 - 66.5%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zeraora: 342-403 (107.8 - 127.1%)

+1 252 Atk Dragonite Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regidrago: 434-512 (80.2 - 94.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 285-336 (88.2 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO through multiscale

+1 252 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regidrago: 379-447 (70 - 82.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 346-408 (140 - 165.1%)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regidrago in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (65.9 - 77.8%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 382-451 (112 - 132.2%)

I'm not going to go through all of them but you can try it for yourself and see that it's very hard to OHKO drago, and even harder to not be OHKOd by it.

So what's wrong then ? Why is regidrago not already on every single team ? Well you already know the answer... It's because of fairy-type pokemon. Regidrago lacks any special coverage to supplement it's incredibly strong dragon stabs, making it unable to break through fairies by itself. However, this alone does not make Regidrago unusable; let's get into the details.

III. Why use Regidrago / What about Fairies ?

1) Not every team has a fairy in it. The very existence of fairy types is enough to deter a lot of pokemons (dragapult and the lati twins being the main exceptions) to run dragon-type moves at all. When was the last time you saw a garchomp or dragonite using a dragon stab ? In return, because of the disappearance of dragon-type moves, fairies are not considered a must-have like an electric or ground immunity, since all dragon sweepers rely on their secondary stabs or coverage moves to try and score KOs, or have answers that don't need to be fairy type in the case of Dragapult. And this tendency is true at every level of play, not just low ladder (althought I can't speak for top ladder, but I assume it must be the same). From what I've seen in my week of extensive testing, about 30 to 40% of teams actually don't have fairy-types at all. In these cases, Regidrago will be an extremely valuable asset, being able to score a kill essentially every single-time it's brought in.

2) Mindgames. Since regidrago is such a powerhouse, no mon in the game that isn't made of glitter and cupcakes can reliably take more than one hit from it. Because of this, everytime you bring in Regidrago, you can be almost certain than your opponent will switch out to their fairy. I found this to be easily exploitable as long as you teambuild around Regidrago and include some fairy killers in your team (in particular, I felt like Regidrago worked very well in tandem with Heatran and Banded Melmetal) which you'll be able to freely bring in on the incoming fairy. Of course your opponent will catch on to this and simply stop switching out in front of the Drago, but this creates dangerous 50/50s as they will permanently be at risk of losing a mon should they decide to stay in while the worst thing you risk is just wasting an energy on a fairy and losing a bit of momentum.

3) The power of fear and chip. Similarly to Regieleki, having a Regidrago in your team creates a climate of pressure right from team preview where your opponent will be hesitant to bring out their fairies in fear of losing them and being much much worse off against your Regidrago. This lets you use Regidrago's teammates that would normally be checked by said fairies much much easier. But there's more ! In the case of regieleki, ground-types have the benefit of being resistant to stealth rock (or in the case of Lando, immune to spikes) and are often defensive mons that run leftovers (or a recovery move in the case of Hippowdon), thus making it hard to chip them throughout the game. Out of all 5 fairies ran in OU, Fini, Alolatales and Lele lack any form of reliable recovery and are thus very vulnerable to chip, while Koko sometimes runs roost but is frail as paper and doesn't like being forced out to come out, leaving only clef as an answer that is actually hard to get rid off, but is often passive and sinks your opponent's momentum every time it's forced out by Drago. When combined with the previous point, Regidrago essentially makes your opponent's fairies less effective just by existing.

4) Safety switch. As demonstrated by earlier calcs, Regidrago is extremely hard to OHKO, and shines in the late game where it will very often trade one for one with one of your opponent's offensive mons or would be sweepers. Note that this is true whether or not they had fairies at all to begin with.

5) Teamwork. This should go without saying, but Regidrago isn't gonna be the only pokemon on your team. Yes it suffers from the presence of fairies, but so does volc from the presence of heatran and blissey, eleki from the presence of grounds, etc... You have 5 other mons to deal with Drago's fairy weakness, so people need to stop acting like this one trait makes it completely unplayable when other perfectly viable mons have similar hard counters.

BONUS: Potential teammates / Teambuilding ideas

In my testing, I've found Banded Melmetal to be one of the mons that are the most effective together with Specs Regidrago. Melm loves doubling on the Fairies that Regidrago lures in, giving it an opportunity to fire off a free band boosted-move, potentially blowing a hole in the enemy team. It's also worth noting that Drago has no trouble with Melm's common checks in the slowtwins, ferrothorn, pex and zapdos, so they naturally just work great together. Nidoking is also something to be considered, being the tier's premier offensive poison-type and fairy-killer, while also having access to either Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes in the last slot to further increase the pressure on fairy-types and chipping them when they come in. In particular Nidoking loves clef and can come in very easily on it. Teammates that can safely bring it in, such as Teleport slowbro/king, slowturn lando/corv and the likes are also very nice and allow you to keep offensive pressure.

Bonus: Here's a pokepaste of the team I had the most success with while testing: https://pokepast.es/b9cd7cf2b46cfdd5

Conclusion + Replays :

While Regidrago does suffer from the presence of fairies in the game, it's not a hurdle that it is impossible to overcome for it when paired with the right mons and played correctly. What's more, fairies don't completely nullify Regidrago's usefulness but simply make it a little harder to play. When considering the sheer destructive power of Dragon Energy versus everything else, I feel like it's not enough to completely disregard this mon; hence I think it deserves a rank in C, as it is DEFINITELY usable with proper support while having a few unique qualities (unmatched power and excellent bulk for a mon that deals this much damage), which is literally the definition of a C rank mon. Thanks for coming to my TED talk. Below are a collection of replays that demonstrate Regidrago being used in practice.

REPLAYS

Against teams WITH fairies:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558311378-xizxx6oub1ez5zklmv9fz6hbce61hxfpw (good demonstrations of the stay-in/switch out 50/50 that regidrago causes + late game bulk)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1562099831 (regidrago forces them to switch into their sleeping fairy multiple times, creating a lot of opportunities for me to go in with melmetal and progressively chip his team till it crumbles, allowing drago to clean at the end)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558479459
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558241313 (6-0 instantly once fairy is eliminated)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1559597454-ivgj3g8j2huood5t8prdktunl1bygszpw (how to lure clef with drago)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558488145 (vs Double Fairy)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558137345 (vs Mono-bs)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558073544-odpx7d7a089rcsazpdhnqq0i3z9zlubpw (1v1ing scizor)

Against teams without fairies:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558131018 (early breaking + good lategame utility)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1557831786-78d9ntlceg5300zjt2hblt14076ax3jpw (regidrago is so good in rain matchups)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1561983818
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1562434140
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558520059
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558443825

Scarf regidrago is also of note, bringing insane power but being able to stay healthy for much longer due to the ability to outspeed every notable offensive threat short of regieleki and their own scarfer

 

[Delibird Heart]

Scarf regidrago is also of note, bringing insane power but being able to stay healthy for much longer due to the ability to outspeed every notable offensive threat short of regieleki and their own scarfer

Notable problem with the scarf set is that you kinda lack the power to force through steels or spdef oriented mons like the specs set does, which kinda makes me think it has nothing special going for it that justifies it's lack of coverage when compared to other similar fast/scarf special mons like specs pult or something like scarf eruption tran, as it will struggle to break cores in the same way the specs set does, and thus suffers even more from the fairy problem as it cannot create as much pressure because it lacks the power to OHKO or even 2HKO some of the bulkier mons in the tier. It can however be somewhat nice in more offensive matchups. Coincidentally, blunder JUST came out with a video featuring scarf drago, so if you want gameplay of that set just go watch it, but I feel like specs is definitely the main selling point of this mon.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Notable problem with the scarf set is that you kinda lack the power to force through steels or spdef oriented mons like the specs set does, which kinda makes me think it has nothing special going for it that justifies it's lack of coverage when compared to other similar fast/scarf special mons like specs pult or something like scarf eruption tran, as it will struggle to break cores in the same way the specs set does, and thus suffers even more from the fairy problem as it cannot create as much pressure because it lacks the power to OHKO or even 2HKO some of the bulkier mons in the tier. It can however be somewhat nice in more offensive matchups. Coincidentally, blunder JUST came out with a video featuring scarf drago, so if you want gameplay of that set just go watch it, but I feel like specs is definitely the main selling point of this mon.

I tried using a physical set with scale shot but in practice it's outclassed by chomp or Haxorus I feel.

 

[Delibird Heart]

I tried using a physical set with scale shot but in practice it's outclassed by chomp or Haxorus I feel.

Yeah physical sets are not the way to go in OU, especially since it's unimpressive 100 atk and average at best physical movepool will struggle to beat any physically defensive mons worth their salt.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Yeah physical sets are not the way to go in OU, especially since it's unimpressive 100 atk and average at best physical movepool will struggle to beat any physically defensive mons worth their salt.

Yup I could only dream lol.



I think it would be cool if got a stronger BP fire move

 

[LOOR]

fun police here, the fairy type checks for regidrago are notably on the rise right now. clefable will probably be decently high in usage this month in particular, seeing crazy success in spl. even looking at last months usage things like fairies and steels were already high as is. I know this is only a nom to get ranked on the vr but i legitimately do not see this things niche outside of trick room, where even there its not very good. specs sets gets revenge killed relatively easy as due to the amount of pivoting your doing to position this thing its not going to take long before it is in range of most of the speed controls or just kinda fast mons like chomp. chip in hazards and pivot moves are the bane of this mons existence. scarf sets are like minimal damage. at least leki has the speed to be threatening to an extent as ground/zera is a more scare and not as good (still good) typing compared to fairy and steel. I really do not think this discussion should be going on as long as it as for a mon niche trick room thats not even top 5 trick room abusers.

cool meme mon sure, doom desire + drago is funny when it works for example. but youre wasting a slot for... regidrago. you can have better results with literally any dragon above it in tiering + tyrantrum and kingdra (not even including rain kingdra, crit dra is more consistent than regidrago)

also obligatory weavile mention, fight me dragolievers.

e: im not going to make a nom cause im lazy but use tyrantrum

 

[Lord Xen III]

fun police here, the fairy type checks for regidrago are notably on the rise right now. clefable will probably be decently high in usage this month in particular, seeing crazy success in spl. even looking at last months usage things like fairies and steels were already high as is. I know this is only a nom to get ranked on the vr but i legitimately do not see this things niche outside of trick room, where even there its not very good. specs sets gets revenge killed relatively easy as due to the amount of pivoting your doing to position this thing its not going to take long before this thing is in range of most of the speed controls or just kinda fast mons like chomp. scarf sets are like minimal damage. at least leki has the speed to be threatening to an extent as ground/zera is a more scare and not as good (still good) typing compared to fairy and steel. I really do not think this discussion should be going on as long as it as for a mon niche trick room thats not even top 5 trick room abusers.

cool meme mon sure, doom desire + drago is funny when it works for example. but youre wasting a slot for... regidrago. you can have better results with literally any dragon above it in tiering + tyrantrum and kingdra (not even including rain kingdra, crit dra is more consistent than regidrago)

also obligatory weavile mention, fight me dragolievers.

to me at this point it's not about why regidrago sucks overall but why it sucks more than the other matchup-fishy or generally flawed Pokémon currently in the C ranks, particularly the C-

I guess it is true that even if we were to put it in C-, then it would be in the same rank as something like Haxorus which has a similar role of dragon wall breaker only it has much better coverage and can have sweeping potential at the same time, which I'm not sure would make sense.

 

[Dirkhann]

I'm still waiting for


Thunder Pwoell


to nom Cobalion.

 

[ironwater]

Hey there. I know there has been a few discussions on this Pokemon already, but I would like to nominate Thundurus-T for a rise because I find this Pokemon truly underrated and extremely threatening in the current metagame, and I’ll try to explain why with some analyses and replays.

C+ -> B –


Introduction​

Sporting an impressive 145 base Spa with a more than decent 101 base Speed (just above all the 100 base Speed), Thundurus-T seems to have the potential to be an insane wallbreaker at first glance. His movepool can hold it back a bit though, as although it has access to some great coverage options like Psychic, Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast, it lacks a good move to threaten Ground types (as Grass Knot is rather bad against the main OU Ground types in Landorus-T and Garchomp). It also lacks a special Flying STAB which would have been highly appreciated as most Flying resists in OU are Steel types who get smacked by Focus Blast. However, Thundurus-T has two insane moves that give it a strong niche in some kind of teams: Nasty Plot and Weather Ball. While the former can turn Thundy-T into a forcing kills machine, the latter can patch up its lack of useful coverage when paired up with the right weather setter. Last thing worth to mention (even though I’ll come back to this latter) is that Thundy-T is not the only offensive Electric and Flying type in OU. Indeed, Zapdos is a more common option mainly because of its greater bulk and its access to Roost and Hurricane. Nevertheless, even if these two Pokemon can be compared, no one can pretend that one is a clear superior version of the other as Thundy-T has better offensive stats and the almighty access to Nasty Plot to wreak havoc on most defensive cores, while being able to act as an Electric immunity thanks to Volt Absorb.

Sets and structures it fits in​

Here are three different sets (or type of sets) that could be used on Thundy-T. This is not an exhaustive list of sets as Thundy-T is not commonly used and there’s probably some other sets to test.

Nasty Plot + Weather Ball



Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Weather Ball
- Focus Blast​

By far the scariest one to face. Weather Ball helps beating Ground types when used with either Rain or Hail. After a Nastly Plot, there’s almost nothing able to come in against Thundurus, letting it break apart the opposing defensive structure to help its weather abusing teammates like Barraskewda in Rain teams and Arctozolt in Hail teams. Thunder is used in Rain teams and completely annihilate any non-Electric resist/immunity not called Blissey after a Nasty Plot boost. Focus Blast is clearly the best fourth move to run to beat Ferrothorn, AV Melmetal and even Blissey. Most of the time, setting up a Nasty Plot is easy, because most of the Pokemon who can directly threaten Thundurus won’t live an unboosted attack. The biggest downside of this set is that it requires either Rain or Hail support and thus only fit on this weather-based teams.

Weatherless Nasty Plot



Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / @ Adrenaline Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Psychic / Grass Knot​

If you were to run Thundy-T without any weather setter, I still think that a Nasty Plot set would be the more efficient way to use it. Even without Weather Ball, Thundy-T has enough coverage to be a threat after a Nasty Plot boost. Focus Blast is still a mandatory option, but the last slot probably depends on what you want to hit. Adreline Orb could be a funny option to take advantage of Lando-T coming in.

Choice Specs Wallbreaker



Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic / Grass Knot
- Focus Blast​

Another idea of set that I didn’t test. Choice Specs Thundurus-T seems super scary looking at how high its Spa is. If you are able to pressure opposing Ground types (for instance having GZapdos to pressure Lando-T), its extremely powerful Volt Switch could be impossible to handle. This set could even fit in Rain teams with Weather Ball for Ground types to form a super powerful VoltTurn core with Barraskewda, even though it becomes highly prediction reliant. Obviously, a big drawback of this set is that you can't run Boots and will have to keep Rocks away of your field.

Special walls in the metagame and how they do against Thundy-T​

If Special wallbreakers and setup sweepers are that threatening in the current OU metagame it’s mainly because of the lack of strong specially defensive answer (bar the not that common Blissey), and because a lot of special walls lack a reliable recovery, making them easy to wear down over the course of the game. Anyway, here is a list of commonly used special walls in the tier and how they do against Thundy-T:

Full SpD Heatran is rather common and is super annoying for special breakers. It’s clearly not a Thundurus answer, however, as +2 Focus Blast is an OHKO and in Rain teams you don’t even need to rely on Focus Blast hitting as Weather Ball is also an OHKO at +2. If needed you can always use +2 Thunderbolt to 2HKO as you live a Magma Storm.

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Rain: 490-578 (126.9 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 392-462 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 220-259 (56.9 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Another extremely common special wall is SpD Landorus-T. If you run Thundy-T in Hail or Rain, Lando is far from being an issue. Ice Weather Ball is an OHKO while Water Weather Ball only require little chips and can even kill Lando after Rocks if you run Modest Thundy. Without Weather ball, +2 Psychic can 2HKO on a roll or after very few chip damage.

Calcs

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian in Rain: 296-350 (77.4 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian in Rain: 326-384 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 177-209 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clefable is not as common as before, and a lot of them are physically defensive. Some people run SpD Clefable for stuff like Dragapult, but even full SpD Clef takes way too much on +2 Thunderbolt and can’t directly threaten it in return.

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 246-291 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even the strongest of all special walls can’t really deal with Thundurus-T. If Blissey is coming on Thundy using Nasty Plot, it will be in range of a Focus Blast 2HKO (or even Focus Blast into Thunder in Rain teams, especially if Thundy runs Modest). Sure, beating Blissey will require to hit a Focus Blast, but that’s still something not a lot of special breakers can do. Also note that most Blissey don’t even run Toxic and opt for Thunder Wave instead meaning they can only try to wear you down a little with Seismic Toss and that even with one Focus miss you’ll be able to win the 1v1. Oh, and even without Nasty Plot, Choice Specs Thundurus-T can just spam Volt Switch against Blissey which will quickly wear it down.

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 436-514 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Slowking Galar is probably one the most annoying special walls for Thundy-T. The classic set can avoid the 2HKO on +2 Tbolt (even from Modest Thundy) and 2HKO Thundy in return. With Veil though, you can still beat it 1v1, as Glowking is not 2HKOing you anymore, and in Rain you have a strongest option in Thunder which has a very high chance of 2HKO.

Calcs

+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunder vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

You need to hit Focus Blast, but if you do even full SpD Ferro will die after a Nasty Plot.

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 368-434 (104.5 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mixed or SpD Toxapex is fairly common, and no need to explain why Pex get annihilated by any Thundy-T set (even max SpD Toxapex will always get at least 2HKO by the Electric move/OHKO after a Nasty Plot boost).

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 356-422 (117.1 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

AV Melmetal is bulky and can directly threaten Thundy with Ice Punch. You don’t need much chip damage to have it in range of +2 Focus Blast though, and AV Melmetal is rather easy to chip down.

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 356-420 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Av Torn-T can be pretty hard to kill but it’s completely unable to come in on Thundy if you click Nasty Plot on its switch, and can’t threaten you anyway. It can’t even Slowturn on you because it’s faster.

Calcs

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 216-254 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While not super common, defensive Tyranitar is one of the best special walls, but yeah Focus Blast, goodbye (just don’t miss).

Calcs

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 272-324 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gastrodon is very uncommon, but can be highly annoying for an Electric special breaker like Thundurus-T. +2 Focus Blast is a guaranteed 2HKO however, even if you’ll have to hit it twice. If you run Grass Knot, Gastrodon is not an issue anymore as +2 Grass Knot will always claim the kill.

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 232-273 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 464-548 (108.9 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Replays ​

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-617852

Semi Finals of OST, Thundurus-T completely reversed the game by cleaning at the end with a setup occasion on Ferro.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1550267966

Game in a French Team Tour where I used the same Rain. Thundy-T did a crazy hole in the team, beating Clefable and especially beating Dragonite so that Barraskewda and Volcanion can win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1560463848-he02o22pynf0w7snrffhz2uh5qi1ojspw

Another game in the same French Team Tour with Thundy-T in Veil HO this time. With Veil support it’s super easy to setup a Nasty Plot and to claim multiple kills. Here again, Thundy-T created a huge hole in the opposing team.

Conclusion​

Thundurus-T is a crazy good wallbreaker and is almost impossible to deal with defensively when run with either Rain or Hail. It’s still rather niche because really efficient only on these two playstyles. As Rain and Veil HO are pretty good right now, I still think that Thundurus-T is overall solid in OU and I would be in favor of a rise, even if I can understand that some people would rather see it stay in C+ due to it not fitting well in most teams and facing the competition of Zapdos.

Thanks for reading, have a nice day!

 

[That_Dwayneee]

resident dumbass here,
I think that the B ranking is kinda messy rn, with mons that don't really feel like they fit in the ranking, and I want to nom to fix this.
note that I am not experienced in these mons, so feel free to [constructively] criticise these noms

B+
Most of the mons in B+ are fine where they are so
B+ -> B+
B+ -> B+/B
These mons are just kinda inflexible, fine for the roles they fill though.
B+ -> A-
It is a version of slowbro that checks volcanion better, which is nice, outside of that the spD focus isn't too useful
B
This is what I mainly wanted to nom for, lots of changes I think should be made are present
B -> B+
A powerful special attacker, however I feel that aegislash also shines with it's spD sub-toxic set, letting it atk drop mons like weavile, and check tapu lele absurdly well
B -> B
B -> B/B+
Stronk
B -> B
B -> B-/C+
Not very fast, very fragile, very prone to eq, just kinda bad
B -> B+
A solid all around defensive ground, whose high base hp means it functions as a nice, knock off/water immune special wall
shit phys def though
B -> B+
A pokemon who has absurd overall tanking capabilities, being able to set sr and still wall opponents, easily the best defensive ground in the tier: only coming short of the versatile spD lando-t
:hydreigon B -> B
B -> A-
Already talked about this
B -> B
Use specs pelipper
this isn't a nom but
do it
B -> B-
B -> C+
B -> B
B -> A-
Very little switch ins to the choice band set
B-
B- -> B-
B- -> C+
Again, already talked about this one

 

[clementinabroccolina]

At this point I'm a little confused as to why Haxorus is even ranked anyway, it's basically just worse Garchomp that can hit a little harder I guess? Its role and place just feels a bit extraneous since while Regidrago is a one dimensional gimmick, its dragon stab DOES hit like an ab

resident dumbass here,
I think that the B ranking is kinda messy rn, with mons that don't really feel like they fit in the ranking, and I want to nom to fix this.
note that I am not experienced in these mons, so feel free to [constructively] criticise these noms

B+
Most of the mons in B+ are fine where they are so
B+ -> B+
B+ -> B+/B
These mons are just kinda inflexible, fine for the roles they fill though.
B+ -> A-
It is a version of slowbro that checks volcanion better, which is nice, outside of that the spD focus isn't too useful
B
This is what I mainly wanted to nom for, lots of changes I think should be made are present
B -> B+
A powerful special attacker, however I feel that aegislash also shines with it's spD sub-toxic set, letting it atk drop mons like weavile, and check tapu lele absurdly well
B -> B
B -> B/B+
Stronk
B -> B
B -> B-/C+
Not very fast, very fragile, very prone to eq, just kinda bad
B -> B+
A solid all around defensive ground, whose high base hp means it functions as a nice, knock off/water immune special wall
shit phys def though
B -> B+
A pokemon who has absurd overall tanking capabilities, being able to set sr and still wall opponents, easily the best defensive ground in the tier: only coming short of the versatile spD lando-t
:hydreigon B -> B
B -> A-
Already talked about this
B -> B
Use specs pelipper
this isn't a nom but
do it
B -> B-
B -> C+
B -> B
B -> A-
Very little switch ins to the choice band set
B-
B- -> B-
B- -> C+
Again, already talked about this one

Nidoking is in a great spot right now in terms of effectiveness but I think that B+ is just a better place for it even if it would end up being the best B+ mon. It's good against the offense to bulky balance spectrum but not more polarized or specialized playstyles, and its awkward speed and mediocre bulk does sort of limit its capabilities and a lot of smart players are going to do what they can to prevent it from being safely pivoted in. I wouldn't say I'm fully opposed to it being A- but I just think that a half step up would be better for it so that it's not just a flavor of the month kind of thing. I feel the same way about CB Ttar and think it's probably just best for B+ and I'm not going to go over the flaws that Ttar has (they've been talked about ad nauseum) but I don't think that as a wall breaker it does enough to stand out from the rest of the A crowd

 

[Lord Xen III]

At this point I'm a little confused as to why Haxorus is even ranked anyway, it's basically just worse Garchomp that can hit a little harder I guess? Its role and place just feels a bit extraneous since while Regidrago is a one dimensional gimmick, its dragon stab DOES hit like an ab

Garchomp is generally much better, but Haxorus's niche is mold breaker allowing it to break though stall a bit easier and the mono-dragon typing offers some unique defensive benefits that Garchomp doesn't provide despite it's greater bulk, like surving a CB grassy Glide at minus 1 def ( after scale shot drop ofc) and being resist to water moves in the rain.

 

[kosecant]

Garchomp is generally much better, but Haxorus's niche is mold breaker allowing it to break though stall a bit easier and the mono-dragon typing offers some unique defensive benefits that Garchomp doesn't provide despite it's greater bulk, like surving a CB grassy Glide at minus 1 def ( after scale shot drop ofc) and being resist to water moves in the rain.

Haxorus also has close combat for coverage, which is excellent with earthquake. It’s a worse Pokémon than garchomp by quite a bit, but it has its place on things like screens offense

 

[Moyashi]

While I could see Ttar maybe going to B+ off the strength of its choice band set, A- is way too high. Especially since CB sets are still very flawed (much less bulky and predicting wrong causes you to lose momentum, no recovery, hates hazards, awful defensive type). I'm also down for a ThundyT raise but I think B-/B is as high as it should go since it still has problems like lesser defensive utility and competing with Zapdos who is more splashable and flexible.

Anywho, final noms until the next VR Update

and to S OR to S-
Either of these I think are appropriate. I don't find LandoT to be so much better than either despite its flexibility and that's because the other two have an arguably equal pull on the metagame. Air Balloon Tran being so effective and central as a SR setter, that it runs moves to beat opposing Air Balloon Tran. Eruption is an incredible early game weapon and it's an amazing progress making tool. While it's other sets are still excellent as well. Weavile, however I feel about its presence in the tier, is undeniably top3 in influence. And this may be a hot take, but Weavile's knock off may be the single most effective weapon in the tier. Stripping many defensive Pokemon of their important items and thus enabling a large amount of Pokemon to be even more effective.

Removing Fini, Melmetal, Heatran, Ferrothorn's leftovers, as well as Ferro, Toxapex and Buzzwole's helmets is massive and makes these Pokemon get worn down much quicker. On top of its set variety and ability to beat so many of its checks, Weavile is immensely threatening now more than ever. The fact many teams run multiple defensive checks to it, as well as often an offensive check on top of that, speaks to the centralizing nature of Weavile. SD, NMI, Band, LO (HO mostly), and probably more sets I'm forgetting.

Which is why I feel Lando should drop or the former two mons should rise. It's propensity for being worn down and overwhelmed rather easily, and the fact so many teams have ways to abuse its presence, it doesn't feel so much better than Heatran or Weavile.

-> A+
Hot take the second: offensive Zapdos is highly threatening and one of the most challenging Pokemon to comfortably switch into in the tier right now. With many teams seriously prepping for Weavile, there is a noticable lack of walls that can handle offensive Zapdos. Blissey being meh, and Galarking facing competition with regular Slowking because of teams needing to check Volcanion, its hurricanes are a powerful weapon with few strong resists. 3a offensive sets have great coverage while maintaining defensive utility. Specs sets are not as defensively apt, but are immensely difficult to wall. The way the metagame is, Zapdos feels like a terrific Pokemon in general and feels better than all the mons in A (other than Lele who I nommed to rise anyway so eh).

-> A
A Mon who continues to prove it is not some trend and is here to stay. Specs varients are still threatening as all get out, but Boots sets have the ability to come in more often and make progress while not being choice locked, and thus preying on mons who expect it to be locked into a move so they can wall it. Incredibly difficult to wall for BO teams (who are under immense strain from Weavile as is) and even balance teams don't love specs sets. Also has some underrated tech options like fire spin on boots sets to trap and remove Fini and Toxapex, while still threatening steels between Steam Eruption and Earth Power. A very good Mon that is better than most everything in A- and it feels out of place next to them. It truly feels A material.

Now for a drop

-> A
Metagame changes are wholely unkind to Fini in recent times. Breakers it can't handle are on the rise, especially Volcanion who dominates it completely and can even trap and remove it. Scarf sets are kinda eh and feel outclassed by other scarfers right now. And perhaps the biggest reason: it's a bulky water that feels really flimsy vs Weavile. Like yeah it can switch in and take hits fine, but the moment it loses leftovers which is a very common occurrence, it gets worn down amazingly fast between chip and hazards and gets overwhelmed fairly easily.

 

[Delibird Heart]

the fairy type checks for regidrago are notably on the rise right now. clefable will probably be decently high in usage this month in particular, seeing crazy success in spl. even looking at last months usage things like fairies and steels were already high as is.

To be fair, this just seems like speculation based on what's happening in SPL rn. I feel like it's better to focus on what the meta looks like rn when making noms, as we're always free to change the VR later to reflect later changes. I also already explained why I felt like even with fairies in the game Regidrago can pull its weight in two of my previous posts, then showed usage stats about fairies being used in only about half of teams, and even if that were to rise drastically, I feel like a mon that gives you a big edge in, say, 33% of matches is still a pretty interesting pick. Also, as shown by previous calcs, steel-types actually all get 2HKOed except AV melm, so they're really not much of a problem.

i legitimately do not see this things niche outside of trick room, where even there its not very good. [...] I really do not think this discussion should be going on as long as it as for a mon niche trick room thats not even top 5 trick room abusers.

There's a reason I did not mention trick room even once... That's because drago is bad on trick room, and tbf I feel like in trick room is bad in general in OU right now. So I don't really see why you're bringing this up, as if the fact that some players using drago on TR where it doesn't belong somehow makes it worse overall ? The set I'm talking about to justify the nom is really just specs.

specs sets gets revenge killed relatively easy as due to the amount of pivoting your doing to position this thing its not going to take long before it is in range of most of the speed controls or just kinda fast mons like chomp. chip in hazards and pivot moves are the bane of this mons existence.

This much is true, it's hard to get in on a hard switch, except on something like pex or slowbro, because you want to avoid chip as much as possible to conserve Dragon Energy bp. But thanks to teleport and u-turn existing, you don't actually need to take these kind of risks, making it much easier in practice to use as long as you can keep the momentum going. I should also mention that revenge killing Drago in one hit is a feat not many mons are capable of, and you can always, yknow, just... switch out and bring it back in later. Funny you'd consider Drago too slow or too hard to position to be a proper breaker when Volcanion is considered one of the tier's premiers breakers while being slower, weak to stealth rock, and suffering from the same chip issues... yet it's fantastic and pretty consistent. Of course, it has things over drago such as actual coverage, but on this aspect is pretty comparable. It also gets hard stopped by pex and gking, which drago blows back with ease.

scarf sets are like minimal damage. at least leki has the speed to be threatening to an extent as ground/zera is a more scare and not as good (still good) typing compared to fairy and steel.

Yeah scarf is more of a fringe option, which is why I didn't mention it in my original post. It's just very good vs offence but for most purposes specs is what this mon should always be. Ground is definitely not more scarce than fairies though, Idk what you're talking about. Literally EVERY team has an elec immune guaranteed past very low ladder, which is definitely less scarce than 50% only of teams having fairies, even above 1825 (as demonstrated by my usage calc before).

you can have better results with literally any dragon above it in tiering + tyrantrum and kingdra (not even including rain kingdra, crit dra is more consistent than regidrago)

Crit dra is an actual meme and suffers from the same issues as regidrago speed-wise, while also being infinitely frailer and not even 2HKOing most of the things that want to check it like ferro and such, while also requiring a turn of set up (which it can never do because it gets bopped by every move and hates status). This is really a ridiculous comparison and tbf the fact you made it makes me think you're just saying things without actually having tried drago seriously, or even considering half of what I've said, no offense. The other dragons you're comparing it to are also mostly sweepers, not breakers like drago, so I don't see the point in this.

 

[Lord Xen III]

rit dra is an actual meme and suffers from the same issues as regidrago speed-wise, while also being infinitely frailer and not even 2HKOing most of the things that want to check it like ferro and such, while also requiring a turn of set up (which it can never do because it gets bopped by every move and hates status). This is really a ridiculous comparison and tbf the fact you made it makes me think you're just saying things without actually having tried drago seriously, or even considering half of what I've said, no offense. The other dragons you're comparing it to are also mostly sweepers, not breakers like drago, so I don't see the point in this.

Yes, but I think Haxorus is a fair argument as while it's a sweeper, it's also a breaker as well due to SD. It does need a turn of set-up, but once it does it's harder to force it to switch out because of it's speed boost with scale shot and nigh perfect coverage available (namely poison jab and CC) and base 147 attack + Mold Breaker to beat the Unaware mons, and it's sitting in C- right now. I'd like to see you address this

 

[Colin]

The problem with Regidrago is that you are investing in a pokemon that is a slow (base 100 beats some breakers but is not useful to rely on) wallbreaker that needs pivoting but completely fails against more than half of OU teams. it being slow, choice locked, and needing pivots relegates it to balance and some BO's and those team styles cannot afford to have a slow breaker that usually fails. those teams instead like to have one or possibly 2 (2nd one faster) breakers they bring in with pivoting over and over again and then having a cleaner and/or speed control to finish the team off. in that model, regidrago doesn't fit because it fails against too many teams instead of being a generally reliable breaker such as Lele, Volcanion, and Weavile that work against most if not all defensive cores. Zeraora works because there are a good amount of tools to force damage onto ground types such as aqua tail garchomp and air balloon heatran and it carries knock, but Regidrago has fewer tools to force damage on fairies as some are purely offensive and others do not share mons that reliably force damage on them.

 

[Lord Xen III]

The problem with Regidrago is that you are investing in a pokemon that is a slow (base 100 beats some breakers but is not useful to rely on) wallbreaker that needs pivoting but completely fails against more than half of OU teams. it being slow, choice locked, and needing pivots relegates it to balance and some BO's and those team styles cannot afford to have a slow breaker that usually fails. those teams instead like to have one or possibly 2 (2nd one faster) breakers they bring in with pivoting over and over again and then having a cleaner and/or speed control to finish the team off. in that model, regidrago doesn't fit because it fails against too many teams instead of being a generally reliable breaker such as Lele, Volcanion, and Weavile that work against most if not all defensive cores. Zeraora works because there are a good amount of tools to force damage onto ground types such as aqua tail garchomp and air balloon heatran and it carries knock, but Regidrago has fewer tools to force damage on fairies as some are purely offensive and others do not share mons that reliably force damage on them.

this is great, but it still doesn't cover why it's worse than what's already in C-

 

[Srn]

This much is true, it's hard to get in on a hard switch, except on something like pex or slowbro, because you want to avoid chip as much as possible to conserve Dragon Energy bp. But thanks to teleport and u-turn existing, you don't actually need to take these kind of risks, making it much easier in practice to use as long as you can keep the momentum going. I should also mention that revenge killing Drago in one hit is a feat not many mons are capable of, and you can always, yknow, just... switch out and bring it back in later. Funny you'd consider Drago too slow or too hard to position to be a proper breaker when Volcanion is considered one of the tier's premiers breakers while being slower, weak to stealth rock, and suffering from the same chip issues... yet it's fantastic and pretty consistent. Of course, it has things over drago such as actual coverage, but on this aspect is pretty comparable. It also gets hard stopped by pex and gking, which drago blows back with ease.

There's quite a few reasons why volcanion is better than regidrago, I wouldn't compare them, even by their defensive aspects. I would argue regidrago is actually weaker to rocks than volcanion is because you are making your dragon energy much weaker even after 2 rounds of rocks and no other hazards, whereas volcanion will be just as strong at 100% or at 1%. This makes it MUCH less dependent on specific support like teleport, slow u-turns, hazard removal etc. The calcs you posted with specs dragon energy are very impressive, but at 75% health you cannot even reliably 2hko corviknight ( (48.6 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Volcanion and regidrago absolutely don't suffer from the same chip issues. Volcanion is fantastic and consistent because it has some defensive utility with water/fire typing and water absorb, and doesn't require slow pivots+ (>80%) health to function.

The last sentence is wrong but also irrelevant, every mon has its checks, and specs volcanion under rain will blow away pex/gking with steam eruption, even ignoring specs earth power.

Regarding whether or not this mon should be ranked, let's compare it to breakers in C-. I think some apt comparisons would be specs solar power zard or band darmanitan. Both require sun, hazard control, and some pivots to bring in, but neither needs to be kept very healthy. I think specs regidrago and specs zard/band darm require similar levels of support. And what are the results of providing so much support? Both of these mons are actually unwallable, not deadweight half the time. There literally isn't a mon under the sun (heh) that can take these two. Regidrago gives significantly worse returns than charizard and darmanitan provided similar support, and I would thus keep it unranked.

 

[Lord Xen III]

There's quite a few reasons why volcanion is better than regidrago, I wouldn't compare them, even by their defensive aspects. I would argue regidrago is actually weaker to rocks than volcanion is because you are making your dragon energy much weaker even after 2 rounds of rocks and no other hazards, whereas volcanion will be just as strong at 100% or at 1%. This makes it MUCH less dependent on specific support like teleport, slow u-turns, hazard removal etc. The calcs you posted with specs dragon energy are very impressive, but at 75% health you cannot even reliably 2hko corviknight ( (48.6 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Volcanion and regidrago absolutely don't suffer from the same chip issues. Volcanion is fantastic and consistent because it has some defensive utility with water/fire typing and water absorb, and doesn't require slow pivots+ (>80%) health to function.

The last sentence is wrong but also irrelevant, every mon has its checks, and specs volcanion under rain will blow away pex/gking with steam eruption, even ignoring specs earth power.

Regarding whether or not this mon should be ranked, let's compare it to breakers in C-. I think some apt comparisons would be specs solar power zard or band darmanitan. Both require sun, hazard control, and some pivots to bring in, but neither needs to be kept very healthy. I think specs regidrago and specs zard/band darm require similar levels of support. And what are the results of providing so much support? Both of these mons are actually unwallable, not deadweight half the time. There literally isn't a mon under the sun (heh) that can take these two. I consider regidrago to be significantly worse than charizard and darmanitan, and would thus keep it unranked.

This is a great post. I definitely overlooked the practicality dragon's energy power after a couple SR switchins.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1557831786-78d9ntlceg5300zjt2hblt14076ax3jpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558241313

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558073544-odpx7d7a089rcsazpdhnqq0i3z9zlubpw

That prompted me to gather some more insight on Regidrago's other moves and also review these replays again. It seemed like in mone of the replays Regidrago never got below 76 percent until the game was already over , but that could be due to people not knowing what regidrago does and being caught off guard by it And its power.

I think specs Dragon Pulse ( and even Draco meteor ) are still worth mentioning , as it seems from Delibird Heart replays you can still 2hko slowking or scizor with pulse for instance.

I also would like you to expound on why you think the specs sun abusers require a comparable amount of support. They force you to run torkoal of course and that kind of limits you to the various sun playstyles and you need very dedicated hazard removal because darminatin and zard otherwise kill themselves very quickly. Regidrago moves/abilities don't wear it down and even though SR hurts its primary breaking move alot and needs to be removed it still has other powerful dragon stabs to lean on. It also seems more splashable as the partners it likes like melmetal , tran and nidoking are really good right now so it seems you can use regidrago on more balance and bulky offense structures than sun.


Lastly it is true that even with sun's plethora of problems, their wallbreakers still manage to force progress even through all the fire resists in the end and is thus can do some work in even its worst matchups making it more consistent than the highly polarizing and volatile Regidrago who kinda "wins" at team preview less than 50 percent of time and is " deadweight" over 50 percent of the time depending on whether the enemy team has fairy or not


But overall I agree with your post and i think Regidrago is a huge matchup fish and trades marginally better hazard matchup and perhaps somewhat marginally less support/ somewhat more splashability for being nigh useless in a greater proportion of matchups.

This makes it overall less consistent than the C- breakers ( not to mention haxorus still exists ) and thus it doesn't really fit in the current tier list. Maybe if there was a D rank it could fit.

 

[Srn]

This is a great post. I definitely overlooked the practicality dragon's energy power after a couple SR switchins.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1557831786-78d9ntlceg5300zjt2hblt14076ax3jpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558241313

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1558073544-odpx7d7a089rcsazpdhnqq0i3z9zlubpw

That prompted me to gather some more insight on Regidrago's other moves and also review these replays again. It seemed like in mone of the replays Regidrago never got below 76 percent until the game was already over , but that could be due to people not knowing what regidrago does and being caught off guard by it And its power.

I think specs Dragon Pulse ( and even Draco meteor ) are still worth mentioning , as it seems from Delibird Heart replays you can still 2hko slowking or scizor with pulse for instance.

Yeah specs regidrago's dpulse and draco are certainly pretty strong but I think the main reason of using it at all is its incredibly strong dragon energy. If we were to ignore dragon energy, I would rather run specs latios. It has a very solid speed tier that can rk kart, more coverage than it can even fit in 4 slots+utility options like trick, and actual defensive utility and doesn't require as much pivots/hazard removal. So for the rest of this post, I'm assuming dragon energy is what you're building around, and the other moves are just accessory.

I also would like you to expound on why you think the specs sun abusers require a comparable amount of support. They force you to run torkoal of course and that kind of limits you to the various sun playstyles and you need very dedicated hazard removal because darminatin and zard otherwise kill themselves very quickly. Regidrago moves/abilities don't wear it down and even though SR hurts its primary breaking move alot and needs to be removed it still has other powerful dragon stabs to lean on. It also seems more splashable as the partners it likes like melmetal , tran and nidoking are really good right now so it seems you can use regidrago on more balance and bulky offense structures than sun.

Sure. We want to keep regidrago at 100% health, get it in vs mons it's slower than (and can ohko or force out), and have a defensive backbone which can handle the mons looking to revenge kill it. This requires defog/spin, slow u-turns/teleport, and a balance or BO teamstyle. Keeping regidrago healthy means you don't want to pivot into toxics, leech seeds, or eat any other small hits, and so it's very reliant on pivots to let it get kills.

Compare that to what specs zard wants. Needs sun up, so we're looking at a sun team, torkoal+venu+3 others. Needs defog/spin, and some pivots would be nice, but it's not as reliant on them as regidrago is. It can switch into clefable's moonblast, ferrothorn's leech seed/body press/power whip/etc, lando's toxic or eq, buzzwole's cc/ice punch/toxic, corviknight's body press/brave bird, kartana scarf locked into leaf blade/sacred sword, etc etc. Regidrago can't do any of this, it's fully reliant on pivots to get in cleanly. Zard can revenge kill non scarf lele/urshifu/defensive zapdos, rillaboom etc and ohko them as well, as it should be timid. Regidrago is slower and can't really revenge kill much. Overall it's easier to get in, which is very important for a wallbreaker. And remember this is the frail fire/flying mon which loses 1/8 hp every turn, so this is a low standard.

So yes, running a dedicated sun team is a lot of support. But zard is less reliant on pivots which regidrago absolutely needs to be worthwhile over smth like specs latios. It's my subjective opinion, but yeah, I think marrying your regidrago to slowbro really isn't much better than needing to run torkoal.

That last part you mention is "partners like melmetal, heatran, and nidoking" just reads to me like "My wallbreaker needs other wallbreakers to break walls before I can start wallbreaking." Regidrago is real good at forcing in fairies, but if that's all it does for you, other dragons can do the same thing. Run dnite or something, and on top of forcing in fairies, you're also using a good mon!

 

[Lord Xen III]

Yeah specs regidrago's dpulse and draco are certainly pretty strong but I think the main reason of using it at all is its incredibly strong dragon energy. If we were to ignore dragon energy, I would rather run specs latios. It has a very solid speed tier that can rk kart, more coverage than it can even fit in 4 slots+utility options like trick, and actual defensive utility and doesn't require as much pivots/hazard removal. So for the rest of this post, I'm assuming dragon energy is what you're building around, and the other moves are just accessory.



Sure. We want to keep regidrago at 100% health, get it in vs mons it's slower than (and can ohko or force out), and have a defensive backbone which can handle the mons looking to revenge kill it. This requires defog/spin, slow u-turns/teleport, and a balance or BO teamstyle. Keeping regidrago healthy means you don't want to pivot into toxics, leech seeds, or eat any other small hits, and so it's very reliant on pivots to let it get kills.

Compare that to what specs zard wants. Needs sun up, so we're looking at a sun team, torkoal+venu+3 others. Needs defog/spin, and some pivots would be nice, but it's not as reliant on them as regidrago is. It can switch into clefable's moonblast, ferrothorn's leech seed/body press/power whip/etc, lando's toxic or eq, buzzwole's cc/ice punch/toxic, corviknight's body press/brave bird, kartana scarf locked into leaf blade/sacred sword, etc etc. Regidrago can't do any of this, it's fully reliant on pivots to get in cleanly. Zard can revenge kill non scarf lele/urshifu/defensive zapdos, rillaboom etc and ohko them as well, as it should be timid. Regidrago is slower and can't really revenge kill much. Overall it's easier to get in, which is very important for a wallbreaker. And remember this is the frail fire/flying mon which loses 1/8 hp every turn, so this is a low standard.

So yes, running a dedicated sun team is a lot of support. But zard is less reliant on pivots which regidrago absolutely needs to be worthwhile over smth like specs latios. It's my subjective opinion, but yeah, I think marrying your regidrago to slowbro really isn't much better than needing to run torkoal.

That last part you mention is "partners like melmetal, heatran, and nidoking" just reads to me like "My wallbreaker needs other wallbreakers to break walls before I can start wallbreaking." Regidrago is real good at forcing in fairies, but if that's all it does for you, other dragons can do the same thing. Run dnite or something, and on top of forcing in fairies, you're also using a good mon!

Yeah it's a good point that you do need to run one of the slowbrothers and/or possibly something like a blissey or wish port clefable ( which have seen better times ) to make Regidrago effective which limits the teams it can fit on and while torkoal does force a dedicates sun team there is still lots of variety in the sun teams you can run.

 

[Walletinspector62]

some noms,

A- to at least A:
Buzz is a very good physical sponge right now. It kind of just beats every physical attacker in the tier (except for Victini and Gapdos) which is such a good trait to have in a metagame riddled with Weavile and Garchomp. Being a Weavile check that can actually stomach Beat ups and have reliable recovery is very important in the current meta.

A- -> A:
Idk if this is a hot take but I genuinely think this Mon is incredible. Water fire is a surprisingly potent offensive type combo and can put immense pressure on team builder to find a check to be able to repeatedly stomach hits. Bulky waters in theory should be a problem, but the two best bulky waters in Pex and Fini both get nailed by coverage and can’t really hit Volcanion back. The burn chance on its stabs is also nice as it allows it to chip it’s own checks really easily. It’s also very easy for it to switch in, finding opportunities against common mons like Fini, Ferro, and Melmetal with proper prediction. Not entirely useless against offensive oriented teams because it’s great natural bulk can help it stomach something like a Draco from Pult. Overall, I think Volcanion is a very good pick right now and rise should reflect that.

B -> at the very least A-:
Rain is super obnoxious right now. Barra is Lowkey the best late game game cleaner in the entire game, and it has very little actually effective switch ins. Ferro and Fini are often overwhelmed by rains other very potent threats by the time skewda comes in, making it very difficult to switch into. Even then, flip turn chunks Fini and ferro for around a quarter of their health, limiting the times the two can both switch in. Every other Mon just gets destroyed by banded liquidation. The only consistent checks to Skewda are Pex and Bro, and both can be removed if Skewda is running the right coverage move. Specs Toad is also very tough to switch into. Specs Weather ball just casually OHKOs mons like water shifu and pult, and blows back mons like Slowbro. Being an electric immunity means it has a lot of opportunities to come in, which is very valuable on rain. It can also run life orb making it even harder to switch into. Overall, rain is very difficult to deal with both in and out of team builder and I think a rise should reflect that.

A -> A-:
It just doesn’t check much anymore. Most common special attackers like Pult and Fini either hit it super effectively or can knock off its assault vest. Doesn’t like the rise of eruption Heatran, AV Torn, or Slowbro taking its role as a future sight pivot. Long story short, glowking has seen better days.

B -> B+
I will live and die on this nom. Aegi has been a sleeper pick forever now and I think people are finally starting to catch on to just how excellent it is. For one, it can run like 15 viable sets, so there is no consistent counter to it. It being able to run bulky sub Toxic sets and offensively oriented specs and swords dance sets mean that if you are expecting one, you could just be switching into the other and putting yourself in a bad position. Imo Swords Dance is probably it’s best set right now, with ghost and fighting coverage being very tough to deal with. Even on offensive sets, it finds so many holes to come in and wreak havoc because of its amazing defensive typing, allowing it to switch in on mons like Tapu lele, Melmetal, nihilego etc. Aegi is good, don’t sleep on Aegi.

B -> B+:
This Mon is so awkward. It kind of just shits on every single team that isn’t balance or stall. It checks mons like blace, pult, goltres, Volcarona, nihilego, and many others with its weirdly good defensive typing. Defensive sets with boots are good, but where I think it shines the best is with its offensive sets. Choice Band stone edge and Superpower combo is very tough to switch into, with most teams just straight up lacking a good Stone edge switch in. Resists get nailed by superpower. Dragon Dance sets imo kind of suck. It’s best offensive set imo rn is rock polish with weakness policy. With how many stray u turns and weak super effective attacks aimed at ttar it has an ample opportunity to pop weakness policy. It’s great natural bulk+ sand help it stomach super effective hits very well. From there, you can run through the opponents team very easily, only really losing to scarfers like lele, kart, and Gapdos. You can even run special moves like ice beam or tbolt to nail mons like chomp and shifu who thought they could stomach a hit, with weakness policy giving ttar a respectable 403 special attack with no investment. Overall, ttar is a very good anti meta pick rn, and I think a rise could reflect its effectiveness.

B - B+:
Everyone is nomming this up so I’ll keep it short: destroys balance, destroys fat, isn’t very good vs offense and stall without the right sets, hates seeing slowkings rising usage.

Wherever it is -> Higher:
Very weird Mon rn. Really it’s only good check is Fini who does not like taking repeated knock offs/ crab hammers. With max speed it can outspeed standard bulky Fini and continue to wail away. From there, nothing switches in. SD boosted Knock kind of just shreds Stall and even some Bulky offense teams. Aqua jet keeps it relevant versus faster teams, and also let’s it revenge kill a ton of very good mons like volc and nihilego. It’s main issue is that it needs to be built around to truly be effective and it’s not as splashable as other mons. Overall, craw is a very good anti meta pick rn and I would like to see a slight rise.

Wherever it is -> Higher: IMO it’s the best meteor beam user in the tier. Nihilego often finds itself hard walled by a lot of common mons and relies on chip to be able to effectively clean a team. Steela in contrast has very solid offensive coverage, really only needing chip on Tran to break. Also in contrast to Nihilego, it gets boosts for its special attack when it claims a kill, meaning that it doesn’t need to have its power herb to be able to effectively clean teams. It’s typing also gives it a ton of good opportunities to switch in.

C- to higher:
Calm mind hatt is pretty good. It’s only check is Heatran, which is a hard wall, but Heatran can be easily chipped/ baiting to hatt can come in and clean up. Once it gets a calm mind boost, it can be surprisingly difficult to kill with it healing itself with draining kiss and leftovers. Also finds a lot of good opportunities to come in and set up on mons like Lando Fini and ferro. Magic bounce is also very useful, letting it sit on stall/ being effectively immune to status conditions. Overall I think this Mon is very underexplored and it should be a little higher on the VR.

C- to higher:
Amoonguss does not deserve to be down there with garbage like xatu and Zard. It’s typing let’s it effectively check mons like koko, urshifu, Lando, pult, zera Finietc. with regenerator it can be very difficult to kill and deal with. Now most grass types struggle in the tier because they give the many birds of the tier pretty much free entry, but amoonguss has one of the hardest switch punishes in the game, spore. It can also run sets like assault vest to be able to bait Heatran and reliably check most special attackers. Also, it can switch into most common choice users, but only if it properly predicts what stab attack it is going to use, examples of this being Gapdos and Tapu lele. Overall, amoong is a sleeper pick and should def not be down there on the vr.

that took thirty minutes to write but I hope if you read the whole thing you enjoyed the read! I’m not really good at explaining particularly why a Mon is good, and I am very open to being corrected. Have a nice day!

 

[Smashburn]

Agree with most of these, but I have some objections based on what was said:

View attachment 423235View attachment 423237View attachment 423233 B -> at the very least A-:
Rain is super obnoxious right now. Barra is Lowkey the best late game game cleaner in the entire game, and it has very little actually effective switch ins. Ferro and Fini are often overwhelmed by rains other very potent threats by the time skewda comes in, making it very difficult to switch into. Even then, flip turn chunks Fini and ferro for around a quarter of their health, limiting the times the two can both switch in. Every other Mon just gets destroyed by banded liquidation. The only consistent checks to Skewda are Pex and Bro, and both can be removed if Skewda is running the right coverage move. Specs Toad is also very tough to switch into. Specs Weather ball just casually OHKOs mons like water shifu and pult, and blows back mons like Slowbro. Being an electric immunity means it has a lot of opportunities to come in, which is very valuable on rain. It can also run life orb making it even harder to switch into. Overall, rain is very difficult to deal with both in and out of team builder and I think a rise should reflect that.

B -> stay B (Seismitoad B-)

I don't entirely agree with the reasoning on this one. Sure, Rain can be rather obnoxious, but I don't think it is as good as it is made out to be here and I think it is ignoring a few things. The limitation of breakers in a game, for instance.

Barraskewda is cited as a standard rain member, its most potent breaker and the fastest and strongest weather abuser in the tier. It is a significant threat from the preview, both in theory and in practice. It blows holes in teams without much care, and without careful play from the opponent the game will be over quickly-- although that begs the question of what methods of counterplay the opponent has, and how it affects rain teams. Firstly, contact effects and hazards force Barraskewda to be weary of what it clicks, and when it clicks. Things like Flame Body and Static force Barraskewda to make risky plays which result in it being potentially crippled, while Iron Barbs or Rough Skin in addition to or with Rocky Helmet significantly chip it. Rain teams generally have poor hazard control, at times depending on Pelipper which is quickly worn down, and once removed leaves rain without a setter. Teams that use things like Zapdos or Tornadus as defoggers in an attempt to offset this often lack slots that could have otherwise contributed more the team, which makes them a trade-off.

The consistency of Barraskewda's more stable checks like Toxapex and Slowbro are furthered by their overall bulk and set variety, and the fact that it can't have all the coverage it wants at once in addition to being choice-locked which can hurt momentum. Other, less stable, checks like Ferrothorn come with their own associated risks like contact effects and surprises such as Chople Berry, Thunder Wave, and 3A sets. General trends such as Ferrothorn being more physically defensive also don't help. I think the points with Fini were fair, so long as the rain team is prepared to handle it.

Other popular rain members like Seismitoad aren't necessarily on every rain team because some can't afford to fit it, which justifies a lower rank rather than being grouped with Pelipper and Barraskewda. Additionally, it tends to be slower and leaves rain choking on faster scarfers like Blacephalon or Kartana, and faster Seismitoad pass on a ton of power.

Of course rain is like any other archetype in that it has some downsides, and it certainly exerts a lot of pressure, but I think it is important to note some of these road blocks keep it from rising further as a whole.

[EDIT]

Forgot to also mention the popularity of other checks like Volcanion, Gastrodon, and Slowking, which are other roadblocks for rain.

--

View attachment 423231 Wherever it is -> Higher:
Very weird Mon rn. Really it’s only good check is Fini who does not like taking repeated knock offs/ crab hammers. With max speed it can outspeed standard bulky Fini and continue to wail away. From there, nothing switches in. SD boosted Knock kind of just shreds Stall and even some Bulky offense teams. Aqua jet keeps it relevant versus faster teams, and also let’s it revenge kill a ton of very good mons like volc and nihilego. It’s main issue is that it needs to be built around to truly be effective and it’s not as splashable as other mons. Overall, craw is a very good anti meta pick rn and I would like to see a slight rise.

C+ -> stay C+

I think Crawdaunt deserves mention with rain too. It has some application in rain, being a strong breaker which abuses priority and titanic STABs, in addition to being a Ghost-type resist which is useful. There are some downsides however, like being shut down by Lele and other bulkier, faster resists and revenge killers. Outside of rain its utility is pretty limited, its speed generally hurts it and the only other real places it can be applied are Trick Room and select slower BO / Balance teams, which are few and far in between by consistency. This doesn't discredit how strong Crawdaunt is overall, but I seriously doubt it deserves the rise and I think it is fine where it is.

--

View attachment 423230 Wherever it is -> Higher: IMO it’s the best meteor beam user in the tier. Nihilego often finds itself hard walled by a lot of common mons and relies on chip to be able to effectively clean a team. Steela in contrast has very solid offensive coverage, really only needing chip on Tran to break. Also in contrast to Nihilego, it gets boosts for its special attack when it claims a kill, meaning that it doesn’t need to have its power herb to be able to effectively clean teams. It’s typing also gives it a ton of good opportunities to switch in.

Celesteela C+ > B-

Celesteela certainly is a good Meteor Beam user, possessing good defensive typing which contributes to HO among others, but I don't think it is the best. By itself Celesteela is not very proficient; it takes multiple turns to set up, suffers from 4MSS, and is generally slower than most abusers of Meteor Beam. Checks like Heatran, Blacephalon, Tapu Koko, etc. aren't few in number and are relatively common. This, when compared to more direct competition like Nihilego, is more support reliant. Celesteela also lacks the utility that Nihilego does (Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, etc.), which takes away from it in my opinion. However, when supported by members that break down its checks, its performance is substantially better, which is why I don't fully object to this rise. However, I don't think it is justified enough to go any higher than B-.

 

[Smashburn]

Also wanted to make a quick wish list of drops and rises for the upcoming update to the viability rankings. These are some of the higher drops and rises, they won't have any reasoning and are in no particular order. They have already been explained thoroughly enough in previous posts, which you can check out for yourself.

RISES

Nidoking B -> B+

Buzzwole A- -> A

Zapdos A -> A+

Tapu Bulu B- -> B

Tapu Lele A -> A+

Heatran S- > S (Combine S)

Weavile S- -> S (Combine S)

DROPS

Landorus (if this even counts as a drop) S -> S (Combine S)

Magnezone A -> A-

Volcarona A -> A-

Slowking-G A -> A-

Tapu Fini A+ -> A