I don't know about Heatran S+, but most of your points are things that have been true about Heatran for 15 years, and are assumed to have been taken into consideration already anytime the mon is being discussed.
These calcs show nice chunky chip, especially when you factor in the trapping damage.
This is probly the most relevant argument against a Heatran rise.
This is not a fair benchmark in my opinion. The variety in terms of viable pokemon has exploded since the early gens and when something becomes that good it goes to ubers.
This is not a fair benchmark in my opinion. The variety in terms of viable pokemon has exploded since the early gens and when something becomes that good it goes to ubers.
For me S+ means that the pokemon is as good as it gets in terms of fulfilling its standard roles and has the option of doing several other roles very well too. Lando fits that description and I'd argue that Heatran does too, moreso than any of the other pokemon in the non-uber tiers.
I think Clef should be put in S tier. All the arguments regarding its set diversity still apply, but LO sets are stupidly hard to keep in check in the current metagame.
clefford (Clefable) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 232 HP / 200 Def / 16 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder / Wish
- Fire Blast
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
Outspeeds Corvi, eats a Chomp +2 EQ, 2HKOs and outspeeds non AV Melmetal. Stab LO Modest Moonblast off 95 sAtk really adds up.
Urshifu was fine in A-tier imo. Future Sight strats have slowly become less effective and the Taunt set is a bit of a gimmick, it has u-turn after all. Many pokemon can fulfil the roles it tends to serve and with how easy it is to wall once you know the set, it doesn't seem S- worthy to me.
The rest of S-/S/S+ seems like a fair representation of the dominant picks.
CB Tyranitar fucks with waaaay too many teams to not be considered A tier and honestly I could see it slipping in S- tier viability at some point in the future. The sand pairs well with toxic-heavy teams and it serves its role as a high Sdef powerhouse in a bulky offense/balance insanely well.
I give up on this guy. It really can't climb higher than B+ with Lando at S+. I rate the Bulk Up Play Rough sets for taking care of Garchomp/Pult at the same time but without massive prior effort a well-played Lando tells you to fuck off all day.
SD/Protect sets compress roles well and even when it doesn't sweep it'll put a massive dent in something unless it's completely misused. Can't see it going higher than B+ any time soon but it's def worth that title for now.
A+ -> S-
A+ -> A+
A- -> A-
A- -> B+
B- -> B+
C -> C-All very good points. I'd like to point out that but that first point I meant that Lando (imo #1) and Heatran (#2) could both be considered S+, as they're about as perfect as you can get for filling holes in your team while maintaining massive threat. Massive bulk, unique typings, fantastic abilities, 600 BST.. the list goes on. They're so good it's a waste to build your team around them, chances are one or both go in anyway as you reach the 5th or last slot.
Landorus is very unique in its ranking, and its qualities are the sole reason I see nothing else touching the S tier during generation eight. Clefable has a lot of benefits, including its variety and staying power which allow it to fit multiple roles on bulky offensive and balance teams alike. However, it doesn't match Landorus in terms of consistency and splashability, so I think S rank is a bit of a stretch. But I do think that S- is a very appropriate rank for Clefable, and its recent usage reflects that.
I have to disagree with this one. Although the slowtwins have fallen somewhat out of favor for other bulky water-types, Urshifu has remained a relevant offensive mainstay in the metagame. Urshifu's Taunt Protective Pads set is certainly not a gimmick, and has seen repeated competitive use alongside partners like Choice Scarf Future Sight Tapu Lele to help it break down physically defensive targets like Toxapex and avoid contact effects which can otherwise limit its offensive potential. The offensive presence and continued momentum Urshifu offers on many teams makes it more than appropriate for A+ in my eyes.
I somewhat agree with this one. Tyranitar's success on bulky offense, balance, and sand teams alike is due in part because of its Choice Band set which generates a lot of offensive pressure and facilitates partners like Excadrill and the occasional Dracozolt. Tyranitar's defensive sets also threaten most defoggers and apply Stealth Rock while also compressing a ghost-type resistance, which greatly frees building constraints for some teams. Its Sand Stream ability allows it to check weather archetypes like Hyper Offense, Rain, Hail, and Sun, which is invaluable at the moment. However, it can be difficult to fit because of how support specific it is, which makes it less splashable. Overall I can definitely understand why it might have some justifiable qualities, but it still feels short of A.
This one I agree with. Zeraora feels very underwhelming at the moment, with the ubiquity of ground-types like Landorus, Garchomp and Hippowdon, resistances like Buzzwole and Tapu Koko, and the general abundance of fast revenge killers and contact effects, Zeraora can't catch a break. Zeraora's Bulk Up set is the most reliable, where its pivot and Choice Band sets are more inconsistent and prediction reliant. In its current state B+ feels more appropriate for Zeraora.
Another one I agree with. Blaziken is a very threatening sweeper that can be hard to account for in the builder because of its overwhelming nature and choice variety which brutalizes its checks. The recent rise Dragonite, Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Volcanion, Rillaboom and Ninetales-A, and the trend of Taunt Protective Pads Urshifu, have both indirectly benefited Blaziken heavily by restricting archetype specific checks. Blaziken is certainly worthy of B+ at the moment.
Mach Punch go brrr. When ghost-type or resistance, Mach Punch no go brrr. Conkeldurr checks popular, Conkeldurr hard to build with, Conkeldurr easily overwhelmed. Conkeldurr go C-.
I've found that taunt protective pads shifu fits well on Offense teams that aren't weak to hazards ( like 3-4 SR resistant mons and the rest aren't weak ) so that you can get away with no defog and just run taunt as your pseudo hazard control in addition to stopping walls from statusing and recovering.All very good points. I'd like to point out that but that first point I meant that Lando (imo #1) and Heatran (#2) could both be considered S+, as they're about as perfect as you can get for filling holes in your team while maintaining massive threat. Massive bulk, unique typings, fantastic abilities, 600 BST.. the list goes on. They're so good it's a waste to build your team around them, chances are one or both go in anyway as you reach the 5th or last slot.
Weavile (#3), Melmetal (#4) and Clef (#5) have fantastic utility combined with power in a variety of sets. They require slightly more care in teambuilder and in-battle but are still incredibly splash-able and have unique strengths. I think this should qualify as S rank and I feel 5 is more than enough to place in the top echelon of the tier (I think S- should be skipped).
A+ rank pokemon have crazy power and/or utility but tend to slack a bit more in one of defensive prowess, unique traits, or set variety.
For me at least, Taunt on Urshi doesn't let it tick those last boxes. There are plenty options when it comes to taunt, but no other pokemon can break through Protect, Subs and +def Stat boosts like him. Taunt doesn't accentuate those strengths for me, having tested it a fair amount.
He doesn't get many switch-ins unless you're ultra careful. Crit Stone Edge from CB Ttar? Anything lower than 78% and it dies on the spot or next turn, not to mention setup/tbolt/cb+fpunch sets. Emergency Weavile switch-in against offence? 1 crit amongst the 12-strike CB BU pummeling you straight up die, no rocks or needing to bet on a 53% 6xTA hit roll.
The metagame shifts have been kind to the Bear but A+ is crazy high and he doesn't have that meta-defining x-factor to me, at least compared to other pokemon in A+. I mainly feel he has little right to be jump higher than the A tier mons.
I agree on the Conk, having him on the same level as Torkoal+Venu doesn't look right.
The murder crab should be at least B rank. It does exactly what it's supposed to do as long as Crabhammer hits. Seriously, that 90% accuracy and needing to cover for its speed tier are the only things keeping me from slapping it on all my teams.
I'll update some of my noms, I forgot about the murder crab lol. Mainly though, Taunt Protective Pads Urshifu exists to add counterplay for Rocky Helmet Toxapex and Slowbro, which otherwise fully wall and chip it, as well as gain momentum. It doesn't stop Future Sight, but it prevents Teleport and ensures that Slowbro has to stay in for threats like Dragapult, Weavile, Tyranitar, Zapdos, Tapu Koko, etc...All very good points. I'd like to point out that but that first point I meant that Lando (imo #1) and Heatran (#2) could both be considered S+, as they're about as perfect as you can get for filling holes in your team while maintaining massive threat. Massive bulk, unique typings, fantastic abilities, 600 BST.. the list goes on. They're so good it's a waste to build your team around them, chances are one or both go in anyway as you reach the 5th or last slot.
Weavile (#3), Melmetal (#4) and Clef (#5) have fantastic utility combined with power in a variety of sets. They require slightly more care in teambuilder and in-battle but are still incredibly splash-able and have unique strengths. I think this should qualify as S rank and I feel 5 is more than enough to place in the top echelon of the tier (I think S- should be skipped).
A+ rank pokemon have crazy power and/or utility but tend to slack a bit more in one of defensive prowess, unique traits, or set variety.
For me at least, Taunt on Urshi doesn't let it tick those last boxes. There are plenty options when it comes to taunt, but no other pokemon can break through Protect, Subs and +def Stat boosts like him. Taunt doesn't accentuate those strengths for me, having tested it a fair amount.
He doesn't get many switch-ins unless you're ultra careful. Crit Stone Edge from CB Ttar? Anything lower than 78% and it dies on the spot or next turn, not to mention setup/tbolt/cb+fpunch sets. Emergency Weavile switch-in against offence? 1 crit amongst the 12-strike CB BU pummeling you straight up die, no rocks or needing to bet on a 53% 6xTA hit roll.
The metagame shifts have been kind to the Bear but A+ is crazy high and he doesn't have that meta-defining x-factor to me, at least compared to other pokemon in A+. I mainly feel he has little right to be jump higher than the A tier mons.
I agree on the Conk, having him on the same level as Torkoal+Venu doesn't look right.
The murder crab should be at least B rank. It does exactly what it's supposed to do as long as Crabhammer hits. Seriously, that 90% accuracy and needing to cover for its speed tier are the only things keeping me from slapping it on all my teams.
well yeah gliscor does it's defensive roles better but gliscor isn't here so fat lando is the next best thing. offensive sets are rarer but can be good for certain structures. but when building a bulky offensive team for example, u-turn defog fat spdef lando (or even phys def for some teams) provides role compression that simply isn't available elsewhere.
Scarf Lando is almost complete junk right now. Bad scarfer that is easy to pivot around and punish for clicking its moves, especially prone to rocks and being worn down by iron barbs / rough skin / helmet chip, and in general it is outclassed by better scarfers who revenge kill way more relevant threats.
Boom saw an uptick but I don't think Bulu has?
ah, well i could be wrong but assumed so due to Pinkacross popularizing it with the lanturn grass spam, which i've run into quite a few times on the ladder.
Well unfortunately Gliscor doesn't exist and the closest thing this generation has is Landorus, which has a very clear effect. Landorus' defensive sets rose to popularity so it could better check ghost-types like Dragapult and Blacephalon, Electric-types like Tapu-Koko, Regieleki, Magnezone, and Zeraora, Fire-types like Volcarona and Heatran, while buffering flying-types like Tornadus-Therian and Zapdos. Quite obviously Landorus has been successful when compressing roles, its specially defensive set being the most popular by far. Choice Scarf and Lead are both very archetype specific and inconsistent on your average team, unquestionably less notable. Not quite sure why this was brought up given that there are very apparent reasons its fat sets are used.
hello snap. Bulbusapien says hi
I'd say its biggest draw is Intimidate, which is really useful to slow down the rate at which physical set up sweepers are able to make progress. For Lando itself, its decently useful, but it becomes very strong when abused by a teammate to make them even better in a certain matchup. When using several physical attackers, I do find the 50/50s Lando creates to be a massive headache because a wrong guess against it leads to further punishment with an attack debuff. Toxic + Ground STAB is also a really good combo that can be difficult to deal with outside of Skarmory / Corviknight and pairs up well with Lando's general role of slowing progress down.
Most of these fit the bill in my opinion, except maybe Torn-T but thats because of weavile really
I wouldn’t say Lando stinks , but I do believe it’s not the top mon of the meta anymore. Part of the reason is it’s ubiquitous usage. Every team prepares for it in the builder, and takes advantage of it hitting the field. It’s special wall set made it the buffer of all special hits, that it barely takes that well.
Well half dead by turn 10 is not as bad it sounds when on many of those BO teams games are ending in around 30 turns.
I’ll say that Lando doesn’t have a good matchup against the top physical threats, so many teams that have defensive Lando have to add another wall that can handle these threats (especially Weavile and Urshifu-R), which is why many bulky offense teams have either Buzzwole or a bulky water. Even Melmetal, which it hypothetically beats, cannot take more than one CB Double Iron Bash from full, as these damage calcs show:
Not really, there are a lot of very nearly meta defining pokemon this gen. Pink Blob, Melm, Weavile, and Torn-T are all very nearly meta defining pokemon that are not quite S, but are so good at their jobs that they nearly define the meta in some way which warrants S- which goes to show how nuts this gen is. To me, Heatran and Lando are the most meta defining pokemon which is why they feel like S ranks to me.
