SPOILERS! Scarlet & Violet Leaks Thread - Data/Mechanics

[R_N]

OK so I thought maybe my earlier posts could still be a little confusing, so to the best of my understanding, this is how the games work

Let's just say we have the Pokemon file for a Dialga from DP. A moveset for Return, Hidden Power & Roar of Time.
If we were to directly "insert" this Pokemon file into a gen 8 game, what happens? For this purpose we'll just ignore questions of file formats and expanded data that happens between games.

• SWSH. Return & Hidden Power, internally, aren't usable and have a "Please delete, maybe" message. The game will not force delete them. You must do that. Roar of Time is left alone. The listed moveset is thus still "Return/Hidden Power/Roar of Time"
• BDSP. Return isn't usable and has a "Please delete, maybe" message. Hidden Power can't be taught to anyone in BDSP, but the move itself is still usable and there's no "Unown only" flag or anything. Thus your Dialga can still use it just fine. The game will still not force delete either move. You must do that. Roar of Time is also left alone. "Return/Hidden Power/Roar of Time"
• LA. Same as BDSP. Though truth be told I'm not actually sure if Hidden Power might've gotten an "Unown Only" flag, but regardless the move would display just fine; if it was somehow Unown only it would simply fail when you try to use it.

So basically the games themselves don't do anything.
What Home does is basically do the insertion for you. If the last update hadn't happened, the Dialga would work as it does in all 3 games above.
But the update did happen. So what happens when it moves this DP Dialga to the games now?

Home marks the moveset in its own memory, wipes the moveset if it's the first time it happened*, then "places" them into the game with the default level up for that game. If it's going in & out between games, Home will remember the respective game's respective moveset that you gave it and restore it to that for that game as needed. As far as I know this is entirely on Home's end.

*The exception to this, iirc my own testing on it, is if a pokemon comes from pre-gen 8 and goes into SWSH. It will just retain everything about itself. Probably just to keep parity with how it worked before.

 

[BlizzardHero]

The one and only scenario in which what Centro says would make sense, is if for some reason, GF decided that for the first time since gen 2, they want to maintain the ability to send pokemon *back*.

I think you're underestimating scenario 2: GF doesn't give a Rattata's bum and just decides to wipe movesets going forward beacuse they can/the programs are there, and it fits better into their specific vision of how you will play the game.

GF has shown time and time again (or at least primarily within the last couple of Gens) that they don't care about how specific people enjoy their games. People who dislike using the EXP share? Too bad! People want to use past gimmicks? Too bad! People who like using Set mode? Too bad! People who like postgame battle facilities? Too bad! List goes on.

That's not to say they will (assuming the rumor is definitely unconfirmed), but GF cares about only one thing from you: how much your kidneys will sell for on the black market your money. Other games are beholden to their players, but Pokemon is such a vast franchise that there's zero accountability.

At the end of the day however, it is what it is. We're all at the mercy of an unfeeling deity

 

[CinderStorm]

Baxcalibur has one of the best movesets and abilities. Its weaknesses are fairy, steel, dragon, fighting, rock. But it gets earthquake for steel and rock, so your check cannot switch into plus one quake. Fighting and fairy are more of a problem but the coverage this monster has is cray. It gets both zen headbutt and iron head! It gets dragon dance and with all the fire moves flying round the meta, you are going to get the boost. Then, when they switch out you use dragon dance and sweep. Not to even mention tera steel...

 

[Atheerios]

DLC Pokemon leaked already

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592643937172619264

 

[RoyalDispenser]

It didn't, because it's not happening in the game.

The only "check" that the 3 gen 8 games do is its internal move list. If a move was marked as unusable, you can't use it; and it will display the "you should probably delete this" text for its description since that's just how it handled.

If you were to inject a BDSP pokemon directly into PLA it wouldn't erase the moveset or anything, all those moves would just display their appropriate internal data for it. You can delete the moves at your leisure.

It could also go by the same logic as the battle spot legality guy in swsh, which just wipes your moves entirely. He was patched in with one of the DLCs so I wouldn't be *too* surprised if GF took that as inspiration and turned it into an automatic reoccuring theme to just have everything usable in battle spot when the time comes. Otherwise idk why they wouldn't have just put it in home itself other than them not wanting to entirely screw the other gen 8 games over. Its possible home gets injected with the 'reset' mechanic for gen 9, but the actual move wipe mechanic started with the DLCs iirc in-game.

 

[CinderStorm]

Also, how does commander work? Is it the opposing Dondozo or can your tatsugiri fuse with your Dondozo?
And does the Dondozo get more stats?

 

[Worldie]

Someone know where I can find Ice Stone? I have checked deliberd store doesn't have them.

You can't buy them, but you can find them on the ground on ice areas (rarely) iirc. Good luck.

 

[GeneralNameless]

This small Youtube channel uploaded some videos of catching the Scarlet paradoxes, check 'em out before they get nuked (playlist linked).

This was cool, seeing them in action. Never realized Roaring Moon was so tiny though!

 

[Cuddly]

Honestly hope there isn’t a way to transfer moves legitimately. This would greatly help with movepool bloat. Especially Scald. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but at least GameFreak is fixing uncompetitive elements where Smogon doesn’t.

 

[Ironmage]

I was thinking more on the Paradox availability issue. It reminds me of the UB distribution in SM, which on one hand makes me miss the third version system since that got significantly improved in USUM. On the other, it feels like it might be a side-effect of the open world setup. It's reasonable for the devs to not want to give the player a 200 BST advantage in the early game (implementation difficulties with stone evolutions aside). As single-stage mons, Paradoxes and the Ruinous Powers wouldn't be placed where they're accessible immediately. However, they can't be placed equivalently to the minor legends of previous gens (many of which became accessible with Surf) because there is no midgame checkpoint for them to be behind. The paradox mons become accessible at the first opportunity once the game knows you're past the beginning, which just happens to be after the main game entirely.

 

[Worldie]

I think you're underestimating scenario 2: GF doesn't give a Rattata's bum and just decides to wipe movesets going forward beacuse they can/the programs are there, and it fits better into their specific vision of how you will play the game.

GF has shown time and time again (or at least primarily within the last couple of Gens) that they don't care about how specific people enjoy their games. People who dislike using the EXP share? Too bad! People want to use past gimmicks? Too bad! People who like using Set mode? Too bad! People who like postgame battle facilities? Too bad! List goes on.

That's not to say they will (assuming the rumor is definitely unconfirmed), but GF cares about only one thing from you: how much your kidneys will sell for on the black market your money. Other games are beholden to their players, but Pokemon is such a vast franchise that there's zero accountability.

My main point being, it's actually more of a hassle to implement a home-side "wipe all moveset and create a fresh one" than to leave alone its SwSh moveset.
Remember that tecnically there's no "wipe all movesets" in home, there's just "Store a separate moveset for BDSP/LA". All pokemon coming from other games than these share the moveset and are not touched.

Repeating: this functionality essentially exists ONLY for pokemon that touch or come from BDSP/LA, nothing regarding movesets is done for any pokemon coming from Bank, Let's Go, or SwSh. Iirc, even pokemon coming from Go don't get a SwSh moveset generated until they actually hit either Let's Go or SwSh (but, been ages so I may be mistaken on this one)

Honestly hope there isn’t a way to transfer moves legitimately. This would greatly help with movepool bloat. Especially Scald. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but at least GameFreak is fixing uncompetitive elements where Smogon doesn’t.

I mean, same, and not cause i have anything against smogon's clauses, I just hate having to carry over all my old mons for moves myself all the time rather than being able to just re-breed (expecially with how fast it is nowadays).

But I still don't see it happening.


Plus, for all you conspiracists, I'd point that a moveset wipe would actually be a detriment toward maintaining active Home subscriptions. If your pokemon are moveset wiped moving forward, you'll hardly be compelled to move them and you'd rather keep them in SwSh and just catch new ones, and this would apply to future gens too.
Considering how many times I hear that "GameFreaks are greedy capitalist bastards reeee" in this forums, it'd be pretty weird for greedy capitalists to implement a mechanic that actually punishes spending money.

I was thinking more on the Paradox availability issue. It reminds me of the UB distribution in SM, which on one hand makes me miss the third version system since that got significantly improved in USUM. On the other, it feels like it might be a side-effect of the open world setup. It's reasonable for the devs to not want to give the player a 200 BST advantage in the early game (implementation difficulties with stone evolutions aside). As single-stage mons, Paradoxes and the Ruinous Powers wouldn't be placed where they're accessible immediately. However, they can't be placed equivalently to the minor legends of previous gens (many of which became accessible with Surf) because there is no midgame checkpoint for them to be behind. The paradox mons become accessible at the first opportunity once the game knows you're past the beginning, which just happens to be after the main game entirely.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. The paradox pokemon are available as "almost postgame" captures, and even if you unlock them early by rushing their relative storyline, you're still kinda dicked by the obedience limit from badges preventing you from using them.

By all purposes, they're basically postgame catches, exactly same as regular legendaries and/or ultrabeasts.

 

[AmbientDinosaur]

Also, how does commander work? Is it the opposing Dondozo or can your tatsugiri fuse with your Dondozo?
And does the Dondozo get more stats?

You can see it in action here

 

[Ironmage]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. The paradox pokemon are available as "almost postgame" captures, and even if you unlock them early by rushing their relative storyline, you're still kinda dicked by the obedience limit from badges preventing you from using them.

By all purposes, they're basically postgame catches, exactly same as regular legendaries and/or ultrabeasts.

I was pointing out that them being postgame is different from minor legendaries such as the birds in RGB, the lake trio in DPPt, and Cobalion in BW, which were all available midgame, as well as most of the UBs in USUM, which were accessible before Victory Road and had the full postgame quest on top. I suggested that the reason they aren't availible midgame is because "midgame" is less defined.

 

[Cheryl.]

has anyone confirmed if Mortal Spin (the Glimmora signature) actually removes hazards like Rapid Spin?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Honestly, by now I just want Home to wipe every moveset and Game Freak to finally come around and scrub movexit data from the game. Don't give me hope of Signal Beam and Pursuit coming back again, kill them for good.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Currently when you move pokemon into BDSP they forget movesets and it turns into level up moves but once you transfer back to home the data gets restored.

It's possible that IF they implemented a similar system for SV, then the entire data about it is entirely on Home.

We won't be able to know at all until Home compatibility is ready then.

 

[CinderStorm]

The thing about glaive rush is that you don't care about taking more damage at plus two attack and speed. and if they have a fairy type you terastallize and tera blast. If it is a problem you switch out to ur check or make sure the check is gone before sweeping. Why do you think switch moves are so good? Also, it has promise of being choice scarf revenge killer.

 

[Worldie]

I was pointing out that them being postgame is different from minor legendaries such as the birds in RGB, the lake trio in DPPt, and Cobalion in BW, which were all available midgame, as well as most of the UBs in USUM, which were accessible before Victory Road and had the full postgame quest on top. I suggested that the reason they aren't availible midgame is because "midgame" is less defined.

In which case yeah, in fact it's probably why you basically need "two" storylines finished or close to to be able to use them (one to actually catch them, and another for them to actually obey you).

To be fair, a pretty interesting way to implement it if you think of it.

Honestly, by now I just want Home to wipe every moveset and Game Freak to finally come around and scrub movexit data from the game. Don't give me hope of Signal Beam and Pursuit coming back again, kill them for good.

Don't worry, no hope for that, they arent even in the moves list in SV

 

[Lectrys]

DLC Pokemon leaked already

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592643937172619264

I take it that all of the other Japanese names there are on already leaked mons? (e.g. Wanival seems like Skeledirge, Umitrio is for Wugtrio, Pamot better be for Pawmot, Wakkanezumi is for a Maus, Ikkanezumi is for the other Maus, Masquernya is probably for Meowscarada)

 

[Bugboy]

Honestly hope there isn’t a way to transfer moves legitimately. This would greatly help with movepool bloat. Especially Scald. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but at least GameFreak is fixing uncompetitive elements where Smogon doesn’t.

Facts. There is nothing interesting to me about another generation characterized by scald, knock off, and teleport spam

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. The paradox pokemon are available as "almost postgame" captures, and even if you unlock them early by rushing their relative storyline, you're still kinda dicked by the obedience limit from badges preventing you from using them.

By all purposes, they're basically postgame catches, exactly same as regular legendaries and/or ultrabeasts.

I think he means you could cut them and your playthrough wouldn't be any different lol.

Its not like NPCs are worth fighting with them, they're too strong for just dex completion use, there's no battle facility to make teams with them for, and the story is practically concluded so you can't do a playthrough with them. Basically their only 'use' on cartridge is batte spot and raids.. and even then you can create their sets in like... minutes they're even leveled high. They dont add much replayability and they don't have any playability before post game... and post game is nonexistent.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I take it that all of the other Japanese names there are on already leaked mons? (e.g. Wanival seems like Skeledirge, Umitrio is for Wugtrio, Pamot better be for Pawmot, Wakkanezumi is for a Maus, Ikkanezumi is for the other Maus, Masquernya is probably for Mascarada)

Wanival is Quaquaval. I looked into this the other day.

Skeledirge's Japanese name transliterates to "Loudbone"

 

[TheMantyke]

Question, I saw from Centro that movesets would be wiped upon entering SV (a la BDSP and Legends). I have zero idea how this was found/confirmed, give that nothing should be able to go from Home to SV. Maybe something in the data mine? Has this been confirmed at all or is it just rumor/speculation?

As much as I would/will freaking hate that if it’s true, and someone should go shove GF into the Pacific for that dumb idea, one benefit is that it make a two-way patch much more workable. But imo the downsides don’t nearly match the positives if this is the case :/.

Nothing has been confirmed, as far as I'm aware. Centro was just parroting something they'd read without a solid source to it. Nobody who has any close ties to the game / home team has said anything about this, and the only person we have like that is the riddler.

I know people are expecting moveset wipes in between generations like what happened with the Gen 8, but I would say there's plenty of reason to expect transfer moves to make a return.

To be upfront with all this, I have not personally worked on anything like PKHex or done anything to contribute to documentation on Pokemon data structure. The biggest thing I have under my belt for this space is being a mod for spaces where you learn a decent bit about this like the wifi section here and Pokecheck. This is me lending what knowledge I have from being around that sort of stuff to give an educated guess and inform some folks without much exposure to it to try and turn around a rumor being taken as an absolute. If folks who are more historied and knowledgeable with the stuff want to chime in, probably take their word for it over mine.

I believe the Gen 8 intergenerational moveset wipes were nearly a necessity. Otherwise, you're transferring moves that don't exist into a game they stopped updating regularly back in 2020 and hoping nothing breaks. SWSH even did end up having some legality checking problems from Home transfers, if I'm not mistaken. IIRC legal underleveled Pokemon from the grand underground and Pokemon from Pokemon GO with BDSP's gen 4 ribbons can make the legality checker in SWSH get moody.

There's also the matter of the TR relearner pools and PLA move tutor relearner pools attached to Pokemon files in SWSH and PLA that are just, like, not on the other game's Pokemon files. To preserve that *something* would have had to be stored cloudside on the Pokemon. At that point, you might as well just save the rest of the moveset on there too so you don't have things going into PLA with movesets only capable of using struggle. This is also just completely ignoring the potential of BDSP being made in unity being a contributing factor to their approach which is just a completely different can of complications I don't know enough about to speak on.

A Gen 8 -> Gen 9 transfer, assuming it's a typical one way transfer like we've had since Gen3, doesn't seem like it'd be incombered by any of that. You can cut off the Pokemon's movepool right as it enters with one permanent change. There's no awkward back and forth between other games your Pokemon will be going through for a while (until our Gen 5 remakes show up in two years lol). You can just have what you had when you enter Paldea and move on. The only real loss I'm expecting is your old TR and Move tutor movepools being lopped off since having three different TM relearner pools is a bit wild. Still, have to imagine whatever you had when you came over in your actual four moves would still be around.

It is worth mentioning that we haven't seen a "battle ready" mark npc yet. If we can't find them, that's not a good sign for transfer moves, since it was needed in SWSH for letting older Pokemon play in flat BSS / VGC without their old movepools, and it's something with transfer wipes we wouldn't need at all. It is worth mentioning they could also patch that in closer to the release of Pokemon Home like they did for the PLA origin symbol in BDSP.

----

Since I know there is a constant risk of what we're saying here being amplified to insanity with all of the context sawed off, please don't take what I'm saying as confirmation anything is confirmed one way or the other. If any takeaway is to be taken here, let it be we don't know if we'll have transfer moves or not.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Worth noting even if centro is right its completely possible for janitor joe at GF to piss in someone's coffee when they hear their event surf pikachu can't make it in and them back pedal on the idea and either disable the mechanic entirely or implement a new way of handling it in home.. even pulling another SWSH patching the NPC.

Basically who the fuck knows won't matter for a few months anyways lol.

 

[Ironmage]

I think he means you could cut them and your playthrough wouldn't be any different lol.

Its not like NPCs are worth fighting with them, they're too strong for just dex completion use, there's no battle facility to make teams with them for, and the story is practically concluded so you can't do a playthrough with them. Basically their only 'use' on cartridge is batte spot and raids.. and even then you can create their sets in like... minutes they're even leveled high. They dont add much replayability and they don't have any playability before post game... and post game is nonexistent.

Just to be clear: I don't think they're wasted space. I just want to use my stupid robots more.