Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Lectrys]

That's kind of my point with Orthworm. Yes, you get a slow Shed Tail which means if you are able to get the Shed Tail off, you get a guaranteed sub, but it comes with the trade-offs of being 1-2 times max per game and actually sacrificing health on Orthworm. I find it very difficult to be able to get off Shed Tail AND use any of the other moves on Orthworm's set. On the other hand, Cyclizar can just spam Shed Tail, maybe better than into passive mons thank Orthworm thanks to Taunt, although I find myself just clicking Shed Tail anyways. Regenerator makes it so forgiving. I think in front of more offensive mons, Cyclizar's ability to outspeed is actually pretty valuable. Orthworm has to fear getting chipped below 50%, Cyclizar doesn't care. It also means it turns into a guessing game, where the outcome if you guess right is a favorable outcome, but guess wrong and you lose a grand total of 12% of Cyclizar's health.

Example: Cyclizar vs. Great Tusk, you have the choice of passing to your Salamence or passing to your Iron Bundle

Pass to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Close Combat --> Sub stays up
Pass to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Headlong Rush --> Sub stays up
Pass to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Ice Spinner --> Oh no, you're Sub broke! --> Salamence used Hurricane
Pass to Iron Bundle --> Great Tusk used Close Combat --> Oh no, you're Sub broke! --> Iron Bundle used Hydro Pump
Pass to Iron Bundle --> Great Tusk used Headlong Rush --> Oh no, you're Sub broke! --> Iron Bundle used Hydro Pump
Pass to Iron Bundle --> Great Tusk used Ice Spinner --> Sub stays up

Cyclizar can do this over and over again thanks to Regenerator. He constantly forces these "50/50s" where you lose nothing from the sub breaking but gain a major advantage if you guess right. It only gets easier with screens up.



Think about it though, the consolation prize is getting a free pivot into any mon you want. It's like a slow U-Turn except the mon using U-Turn only gets hit by a move that does 12% damage. This is the difference:

Pass Shed Tail to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Ice Spinner --> Oh no, you're Sub broke! --> Salamence used Hurricane
U-Turn to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Ice Spinner --> R.I.P

Cyclizar outspeeding a metric ton of mons, especially with Choice Scarf, is pretty darn good at letting it get off the first Shed Tail in the first place. Thing is, if you lose the 50/50 and the Sub breaks, assuming you don't have screens or opposing attack/special attack debuffs up, Cyclizar basically has to re-enter on a double switch, when one of your mons gets KOed, a Ghost attack, or a rare resisted or somehow neutral hit that Cyclizar actually doesn't take too much from - it can't just "spam Shed Tail" "over and over again":

252 Atk Quaquaval Aqua Step vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 87-103 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (lose one 50/50 with Shed Tail and watch your opponent get Stealth Rock up and Cyclizar can't switch into this for profit unless it's Boots - and if it's Boots, you have bigger problems)
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 81-96 (23.5 - 27.9%) -- 83.9% chance to 4HKO (same deal as Quaquaval Aqua Step)
0- Atk Iron Bundle Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 34-41 (9.8 - 11.9%) -- possible 9HKO (finally, a move that non-Boots Cyclizar can switch into for profit after losing a 50/50 with Shed Tail and getting beaned by Stealth Rock once! Too bad you just switched into a pivot move)
252 Atk Iron Treads Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 70-83 (20.3 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (this is a 68.8% chance to take 5/6ths-of-full-health Cyclizar below 50% after Stealth Rock - so you're telling me that, after losing a 50/50 with Shed Tail and switching into Rocks, non-Boots Cyclizar basically can't switch into Rapid Spin for profit, either?!?)
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 75-89 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO (see Jolly Scarf Palafin-Hero Flip Turn)
252 Atk Pawmot Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 80-94 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- 63.7% chance to 4HKO (all Pawmot needs is Choice Scarf and Volt Absorb/Natural Cure to prevent non-Boots Cyclizar from switching into Thunder Punch and Stealth Rock for profit after losing a 50/50 with Shed Tail)
0 Atk Clodsire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 120-142 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yikes, even Boots Cyclizar can't switch into this stallmon's Earthquake for profit after losing a 50/50 with Shed Tail)
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 64-76 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO (and this still somehow has a chance of leaving non-Boots Cyclizar too low to use Shed Tail a second time after losing a 50/50 with Shed Tail and switching into Stealth Rock)

In my experience, my team generally gets too worn out after the first 2 Shed Tails for Cyclizar to pull off Shed Tail a third time.

...This is where the Orthworm-being-easier-to-use arguments come in again. While you will have to give up on Shed Tail dreams on Orthworm some of the time as you successfully wall Baxcalibur or Maushold with Orthworm but take too much damage Body Pressing the Godzilla dragon and the cluster of mice to hell, you probably have that already in mind if you're building with Orthworm and thinking "thank goodness I have a Steel-type that is immune to Ground and can do game-swinging things". While Orthworm is indeed only Shed Tailing 1-2 times at most per game, those Shed Tails are significantly more likely to be decisive than Cyclizar's because those Subs actually survive the turn they're made way more than half the time - and Orthworm can still pull off the first Shed Tail fairly often even when hit down to Sitrus Berry. And when Cyclizar is only Shed Tailing 2-3 times per game without support...I know which Shed Tail user I'd rather use.

 

[CaptainDaimyo]

I'd like to bring up Dragapult. When I last covered Dragapult here, it was before the bans, so I'd like to cover its status in the metagame post-Flutter Mane and Post-Houndstone bans, since the former warped the meta around it a lot, while the latter did to some degree.

Question 1: How much did Dragapult gain from the bans?
Dragapult, IMO, got one of the biggest Ws out of the bans, especially Flutter Mane. First of all, two of its most important rivals in the best Ghost-type race have been removed, putting in it prime position to become a top option once more of being a useful Ghost-type for teams. Second, Dragapult also lost one of its most important checks, since Flutter Mane was able to outspeed and force it out. Lastly, Dragapult now has probably the best Speed tier in the metagame, being able to outspeed base Roaring Moon and Cyclizar, and outspeeding the former was something that base Speed Flutter Mane couldn't do.

Question 2: How is Dragapult important in the current metagame?
I'd say Dragapult's main importance is being able to counter the Cyclizar Shed Tail trend. Thanks to Infiltrator, Dragapult is able to do either one of two things (I'll be using the DD set since it's the best set for Dragapult so far.): It can either Dragon Dance on a predicted Shed Tail to refute it and later sweep, or it can just Dragon Darts on Cyclizar to end the Shed Tail gameplan before it begins. Dragon Dance Dragapult is scary for a sweeper given its Speed and Attack stats, its STAB combination being almost unresisted, and it's even scarier thanks to its Tera potential. Dragapult can also serve as a good option as a spinblocker, given how Rapid Spin is more common than Defog in this generation, and that Dragapult is one of the few actually OU-level Ghost-types.

Question 3: The Verdict?
I'd say Dragapult is currently a very important anti-meta meta option. Heck, by playing Gen 9 OU, I can also say it's quite underrated, which is quite a hot take considering how well Dragapult performed last generation. However, by looking at Dragapult's place in a post-first wave ban metagame, you get my point.

 

[alephgalactus]

I want to move the conversation away from individual Pokémon to ask a question about how the new metagame aspects (i.e. deletions) feel?

1. How has the widespread removal of Scald affected your battle quality? Does it feel better? Worse? How has the removal Scald affect how players pilot bulkier teams?
2. Has the decreased distribution of Knock Off affect your teambuilding approach compared to last generation?
3. Has the Defog distribution nerf affect your ability to put hazard removal onto your team, or have you been handling fine regardless?

1. I’ve been enjoying the Scaldless meta a lot—I maintain that the move is not competitive and Gen 6 UU was right to include a ladder without it. I haven’t really seen many bulkier balance/stall teams, but that’s more the fault of the more busted offense threats—there are plenty of good defensive mons that just get invalidated by Iron No-Fundle, Skillafin, and Cheater Tail Cyclizar.
2. I like Knock Off, but its distribution was way too high in previous gens. It’s refreshing to not have to worry about specifically dedicating a team slot to switching into one move in particular.
3. Defog going is kind of upsetting. Spikes got a massive increase in distribution, so hazard control is more important than… well, not more important than ever since Boots exist and Knock Off is rarer, but still very important. Glimmora in particular is an insane hazard stacker, both of the Sires get Spikes, it’s pretty wacky. However, I don’t think the decreased distribution of Defog has had a huge effect on the meta because Gholdengo, which blocks it, is insanely good and will massively pop off once the nonsense has been pruned from the meta.

 

[Ctann]

Lol Cyclizar can invalidate defensive Pokémon better than anything else in this meta, especially with screens support and double especially with pivot support. If there are screens support it can also invalidate one-dimensional Pokémon that rely on simple move sets very easily…

the fact that there’s a long list of Pokémon’s that love the guaranteed setup behind a sub means it can’t last long. Even if it’s not banned in this wave, I can say with near 100% certainty it will be banned, or it’s shed tail move will be banned, by the time more Pokémon’s are released

 

[MasterPlayer]

I noticed that Iron Bundle, Palafin and Cyclizar are all quite weak on the SpD side, so maybe something could be done with this in mind

 

[Beaf Cultist]

1. How has the widespread removal of Scald affected your battle quality? Does it feel better? Worse? How has the removal Scald affect how players pilot bulkier teams?
2. Has the decreased distribution of Knock Off affect your teambuilding approach compared to last generation?
3. Has the Defog distribution nerf affect your ability to put hazard removal onto your team, or have you been handling fine regardless?

imo Palafin would not be banworthy (ignoring Tera) in a meta with Scald. Losing Scald has been a terrible blow to defensive Waters, which has led to a downtrend in their usage, which in turn has made mons commonly checked by bulky Waters absolutely clean house. Knock Off is still available on multiple high-tier OU mons (the Dons, Cyclizar, Meowskarada), the problem is that all of them fit much better on offense and balance than stall. Stall being unable to get past Boots in such a hazard-centric meta is a terrible blow to the play style, and I struggle to see many viable ways of playing around it pre-Home. Defog distribution has been part of why hazard stacking has blown up this gen, and the fact that any balance/stall team is basically forced to run Corviknight if they don't want to have to rely on Spin is absolutely brutal.

I personally hate the Scald removal, but honestly I generally like Knock Off and Defog being cut down. Or at least, that's what I WOULD say if stupid mon Gholdengo didn't exist. I wish every mon got Defog just to have a chance for defensive teams to be able to actually stretch this mon thin. As of right now I think it's extremely oppressive, and it's just going to get more and more problematic as we run down the list of brokemons.

 

[alephgalactus]

Lol Cyclizar can invalidate defensive Pokémon better than anything else in this meta, especially with screens support and double especially with pivot support. If there are screens support it can also invalidate one-dimensional Pokémon that rely on simple move sets very easily…

the fact that there’s a long list of Pokémon’s that love the guaranteed setup behind a sub means it can’t last long. Even if it’s not banned in this wave, I can say with near 100% certainty it will be banned, or it’s shed tail move will be banned, by the time more Pokémon’s are released

Here’s how things are probably going to shake out:

1. Cyclizar gets banned in Wave 3
2. DLC comes out
3. Heliolisk gets Shed Tail
4. Shed Tail banned, Cyclizar unbanned

I noticed that Iron Bundle, Palafin and Cyclizar are all quite weak on the SpD side, so maybe something could be done with this in mind

Oh, if only there were a very strong, very fast special attacker that outsped Cyclizar and was immune to both of its STABs
(but seriously though, as broken as Flutter Mane was, it was holding Cyclizar and Bundle back. Banning it was still absolutely the correct move, though)

 

[Mikegengsta]

Why we going to ban Pokemon when we lost flutter and houndstone? Palafin, Cyclizar and gholdengo is not even that bad. So much whining and then we lose the next thing and then tera typing? I enjoy this gen. I don’t want to go back to SS playstyle. Power creep is always going to increase like card games with every release. Gotta adapt to it and realize that your “fave mons” are no good and you can’t constrict things for long. If tera gets banned, create a format with it because tera is wayyyyyyy more enjoyable than z crystals and dynamaxing imo

 

[Msousagamer]

Lol Cyclizar can invalidate defensive Pokémon better than anything else in this meta, especially with screens support and double especially with pivot support. If there are screens support it can also invalidate one-dimensional Pokémon that rely on simple move sets very easily…

the fact that there’s a long list of Pokémon’s that love the guaranteed setup behind a sub means it can’t last long. Even if it’s not banned in this wave, I can say with near 100% certainty it will be banned, or it’s shed tail move will be banned, by the time more Pokémon’s are released

I wanted to point out a great pokemon to team up with cyclizar is gholgengo, since fairy and fighting attacks are negated. If you want you can abuse dragonite too with it.

 

[megapoliwhirl]

I’m fine letting things that are likely broken remain. But things that make the entire game unplayable and unfun without any forms of counterplay ruin the new toy experience for everyone. There’s a way to get the most out of these releases and it tends to not just be “do nothing”, but rather being a tad minimalist and more practical for the first stretch

we have the next 3 years to ban things left right n centre it's only been day 3 the new toy experience should still be there there's still doubles combos meta to study/consider truly

 

[MasterPlayer]

I'm sure Ghost types can sit on Cyclizar with Shed Tail as long as Cyclizar doesn't pack any coverage moves specifically against Ghost types

 

[MasterPlayer]

Hol up Cyclizar learns Knock Off as one of it's egg moves?

 

[Finchinator]

we have the next 3 years to ban things left right n centre it's only been day 3 the new toy experience should still be there there's still doubles combos meta to study/consider truly

There’s not really a new toy experience when every game is decided by turn 12 with Flutter Mane or Last Respects. That’s just not fun or competitive in the slightest. I mean read the thread and see the reaction — there are a few outliers that had to go so the bulk of the “new toys” were usable and enjoyable to the fullest extent.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Wait I just realized that Cyclizar could make stall teams a nightmare to face specifically because of Shed Tail and Knock Off to punish those who think they can ignore the hazards with HDB

 

[Ctann]

There’s not really a new toy experience when every game is decided by turn 12 with Flutter Mane or Last Respects. That’s just not fun or competitive in the slightest. I mean read the thread and see the reaction — there are a few outliers that had to go so the bulk of the “new toys” were usable and enjoyable to the fullest extent.

this kinda explains why flutter mane got all the attention even tho I’d argue bundle, ice dog and potentially dolphin superman are more difficult to “beat” than flutter mane /anti competitive. Meanwhile cyclizar can enable any powerful sweeper.

Flutter mane was kind of pigeon holed into a revenge/breaking role, but it didn’t have the longer term “difficult to beat” aspect that the other three have thanks to weakness to priority, and low defenses, and being easy to force in and out its booster sets.

bundle don’t need no booster sets when it’s kyurem on steroids with the same 10% chance that it’s stab invalidates a check and a better secondary stab.

dolphin super man and ice dog don’t really have a counter play technique that doesn’t force you into using Pokémon that sack momentum in a high-offence era. Long term they can always be on top.

note: flutter mane is clearly OP, it just got all the attention away from the other threats that also were

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I really enjoyed Palafin. Sad to see it go.

Anyways, now what happened to the Spikestack teams that populated ladder?

 

[MasterPlayer]

And as for Cyclizar with Shed Tail making stall teams a nightmare, it's simply because it basically gives a save turn for a teammate to lay hazards on the enemy team with barely any damage unless the opponent uses a multi-hit move

 

[Mikegengsta]

Palafin got banned just now?? Really…..

 

[ayevon]

Offensive mons like Roaring Moon are similarly predictable. Despite what the ladder may have you believe at times, most people playing this game do have a brain and aren't pulling a name from a hat somewhere and using that to decide their Tera type. Little Timmy might pick whatever sounds cool, but most players on ladder are to some extent actually trying to win. If I see a Roaring Moon team with no great Breloom check, I can be reasonably certain that Roaring Moon is in fact, the Breloom check, for instance. It's just game sense 101. I'm sure that eventually, given enough games every poster in this thread will run into that one guy who just had to be different, but honestly that doesn't sound any worse than having your Buzzwole murked by Z-Peck Mamoswine. And yes, that absolutely was a real set that was ran in Gen 7 UU at one point iirc, so Z-Moves have quite literally already caused the same dilemma that so many posters seem to fear with Tera. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm trying to get a pro-ban argument that properly articulates why Z-Peck is okay, but Tera is not. Why was the first Buzzwole user to be shamed so thoroughly expected to adapt, but with Tera it's different? Not one pro-ban argument can (or at the very last, has) adequately explained this very obvious difference in mentality on two fundamentally similar issues.

You could reasonably only use a Z move on one mon (maybe 2 on very specific builds, but that was extremely rare) from when you loaded the team, as opposed to having one on every single mon on your team. Z Moves were also limited to the movepool of your pokemon, so whilst you could have niche lures like you mentioned with peck mamoswine, you wouldn't have to worry about mamoswine having a fire or electric type coverage for your skarmory.

Tera also has extreme defensive applications for both offensive mons and walls, and these applications are much more extreme than any defensive utility z moves might have (z rock lando with sr, using a z crystal to take less knock damage and bypass taunt). I'm going to use gen7/8 meta as an example because I think that will be easy to understand, but let's say you running a HO team and you come up against a scarf blacephalon. Your very offensive team is reliant on using mimkyu with disguise/shadow sneak to check it. Even with disguise intact, versus a normal tera type blacephalon it would be a complete 50-50 on whether to shadow claw or play rough in order to get the turn correct.

The number of viable tera types is just going to be so vast for most mons. If you have a dual typing, both your typings are viable to tera to provide stronger damage to what are likely your best moves, and then any typing that helps you hit your defensive checks and protect against your offensive checks. Let's use your mamoswine example. In addition to using tera flying like mamoswine would z peck, mamoswine could use tera ghost to block buzzwole's fighting moves and resist bug, use z fire which might have additional applications etc. This basically could go on ad infinitum, with so many battles decided by the adjustment to the adjustment to the adjustment of the current meta teratyping in ways that z moves couldn't even come close to touching.

Stall might have the best teratype applications of all. While stall has certainly be neutered by other mechanic changes like reduced recovery pp and the huge increase of taunt users, the fact that wall on your team comes preloaded with a second typing that could be used to neuter the specific team you happen to be up against is such a huge advantage. Imagine your unaware clefable being able to change to be a fire type because you loaded into lo kartana, or your blissey being able to become a dark type because you're up against stored power reuni. Certainly these have drawbacks against specific team combonations, but the sheer volume of optionality in terms of offensive and defensive responses from all your different pokemon makes tera have a huge amount of random variance compared to z moves.

With all that said though, holy shit is tera way more fun than dynamax, dynamax is literally the worst idea of all time.

 

[Ctann]

Okay so we need people much more creative than I to help with this.. but this is the beginning of a “fun” olive tree set:


Arboliva @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Strength Sap

it can set substitutes and build up its attack. Sucks against corviknight with the current iteration, maybe Tera electric with a ground resist berry is better? How would you customise the Tera, EVs, item, moves and maybe even the ability, to make this as annoying as possible?

 

[oopsalldeoxys]

THE UGLY DOLPHIN IS GONE!! VICTORY!!!

 

[oopsalldeoxys]

Okay so we need people much more creative than I to help with this.. but this is the beginning of a “fun” olive tree set:


Arboliva @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Strength Sap

it can set substitutes and build up its attack. Sucks against corviknight with the current iteration, maybe Tera electric is better? How would you customise the Tera, EVs, item, moves and maybe even the ability, to make this as annoying as possible?

leech helps with corv a little, maybe run it in sun so you get wball?

 

[Finchinator]

THE UGLY DOLPHIN IS GONE!! VICTORY!!!

fake news

 

[oopsalldeoxys]

fake news

I cri

 

[alephgalactus]

fake news

For now. Everyone knows it’s gone next wave (crash).