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Metagame Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Rio Vidal
- Start date
- Status
I have been playing a bit of mono ground and I think it has some serious legs in the meta mainly thanks to the overwhelming power of great tusks.
Below is my favorite team. I will not mention Flutter mane because it should be banned eventually.
Clodsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Protect
- Recover
- Earthquake
Big body clodsire is a house where we make a home. This mon has great hazards and can put in work. Walls palafin and other scary water types. The first of our two water absorbers.
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Brick Break
- Stealth Rock
Oh how the mighty have fallen. This is the base bulky set and I have been trying to find a move to slot in for toxic. Brick break to destroy screens against dark. I wish it still had toxic. It gives us a solid B plan of phasing a bit to spread around toxic.
Great Tusk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Headlong Rush
- Rapid Spin
- Play Rough
This mon is disgusting. SO much damage. Assault vest to help its bad special bulk so it has more opportunity to switch in. its easily the only reason we can win against dark. I have ran a choice scarf to put in work against Ice but it is still outspend by Iron bundle so I think Assault vest is best here. is the only reason dark doesn't roll over us.
Iron Treads @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
Iron head for Iron bundle. Jolly nature to get the speed boost of quark drive. It gives us play against ice. not much play but play. Wild Charge is a consideration for water but sandy shocks gives us play there. Mega horn is for phychic and dark.
Sandy Shocks @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Power Gem
This is the only way to beat Iron bundle. The scarf gives us speed control and allows it to damage the super fast attackers in Ice and water.
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Surf
- Earth Power
- Yawn
I miss the old Gastrodon. Toxic and scald gastrodon, only water absorber I need gastrodon, beat water by itself gastrodon.
I hate this new gastrodon, I don't wanna click yawn Gastrodon, Where is your scald Gastrodon? Does Game freak hate Gastrodon?
Yawn is actually good being able to make a pokemon useless give us some good play.
This team seems ok, I have not played against every type. I have not seen Fairy, psychic, dragon. All of those types seem really good and will cause trouble and probably changes to the team. IDK how to beat dragon without mamoswine.
Other Considerations:
Ting-Lu
This mon is Hippowdon but bulkier with no recovery. It helps plan B super hard setting up hazards and a dark type will help against psychic.
Toedscruel
It seems ok. Ground/grass is like not good. It does the same things as Gastodon with more weaknesses. I can't really have another mon with no play against Ice its actually to strong this gen. Maybe in a different team configuration. It's ability means its base 100 speed means nothing when clicking spore, but base 100 speed means nothing with Flutter mane and Iron Bundle in the meta.
Mudsdale
since Ground has no sand rush users right now Mudsdale does Hippowdon's job in an interesting way. Stamina lets it get stupid bulky against the family of rats. letting Mudsdale solo mono normal with body press. It also has hazards to set up and decent coverage options.
Hippowdon
recovery is actually busted. Slack off and being mono ground makes this pokemon better than Ting-lu in alot of ways. Not being weak to fighting and Fairy is really relevant in the meta right now. I am not running it now but pairing it up with Gastodon and Clodsire as the defensive core of the team is more than just interesting. Getting sand up allows this team to play a more stally nature which might be good against the HO in the meta right now.
TL;DR
Ground really wants a special wall that can actually do something against Iron bundle. Until that happens Iron Bundle will sweep ground by itself. any water team not playing Iron Bundle is beatable by ground.
Below is my favorite team. I will not mention Flutter mane because it should be banned eventually.
Clodsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Protect
- Recover
- Earthquake
Big body clodsire is a house where we make a home. This mon has great hazards and can put in work. Walls palafin and other scary water types. The first of our two water absorbers.
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Brick Break
- Stealth Rock
Oh how the mighty have fallen. This is the base bulky set and I have been trying to find a move to slot in for toxic. Brick break to destroy screens against dark. I wish it still had toxic. It gives us a solid B plan of phasing a bit to spread around toxic.
Great Tusk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Headlong Rush
- Rapid Spin
- Play Rough
This mon is disgusting. SO much damage. Assault vest to help its bad special bulk so it has more opportunity to switch in. its easily the only reason we can win against dark. I have ran a choice scarf to put in work against Ice but it is still outspend by Iron bundle so I think Assault vest is best here. is the only reason dark doesn't roll over us.
Iron Treads @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
Iron head for Iron bundle. Jolly nature to get the speed boost of quark drive. It gives us play against ice. not much play but play. Wild Charge is a consideration for water but sandy shocks gives us play there. Mega horn is for phychic and dark.
Sandy Shocks @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Power Gem
This is the only way to beat Iron bundle. The scarf gives us speed control and allows it to damage the super fast attackers in Ice and water.
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Surf
- Earth Power
- Yawn
I miss the old Gastrodon. Toxic and scald gastrodon, only water absorber I need gastrodon, beat water by itself gastrodon.
I hate this new gastrodon, I don't wanna click yawn Gastrodon, Where is your scald Gastrodon? Does Game freak hate Gastrodon?
Yawn is actually good being able to make a pokemon useless give us some good play.
This team seems ok, I have not played against every type. I have not seen Fairy, psychic, dragon. All of those types seem really good and will cause trouble and probably changes to the team. IDK how to beat dragon without mamoswine.
Other Considerations:
Ting-Lu
This mon is Hippowdon but bulkier with no recovery. It helps plan B super hard setting up hazards and a dark type will help against psychic.
Toedscruel
It seems ok. Ground/grass is like not good. It does the same things as Gastodon with more weaknesses. I can't really have another mon with no play against Ice its actually to strong this gen. Maybe in a different team configuration. It's ability means its base 100 speed means nothing when clicking spore, but base 100 speed means nothing with Flutter mane and Iron Bundle in the meta.
Mudsdale
since Ground has no sand rush users right now Mudsdale does Hippowdon's job in an interesting way. Stamina lets it get stupid bulky against the family of rats. letting Mudsdale solo mono normal with body press. It also has hazards to set up and decent coverage options.
Hippowdon
recovery is actually busted. Slack off and being mono ground makes this pokemon better than Ting-lu in alot of ways. Not being weak to fighting and Fairy is really relevant in the meta right now. I am not running it now but pairing it up with Gastodon and Clodsire as the defensive core of the team is more than just interesting. Getting sand up allows this team to play a more stally nature which might be good against the HO in the meta right now.
TL;DR
Ground really wants a special wall that can actually do something against Iron bundle. Until that happens Iron Bundle will sweep ground by itself. any water team not playing Iron Bundle is beatable by ground.
Something I’ve tried is Protect Specially Defensive Iron Treads since it scouts the move Iron Bundle is locking itself into and can rack up damage with Toxic Spikes + Sandstorm. Maybe that could defensively help the Iron Bundle matchup?
The ground team I have found the most success with so far had a defensive core of Ting Lu + Max Defense Great Tusk + Quagsire + Clodsire. Quagsire seems a solid choice this gen with all the dangerous setup, and with clodsire acting as the water immune it seems like a good fit to cover Cloyster. Physical Defensive Great Tusk I used to cover the physical fighting/bug hits for Ting Lu. It's been solid in most mus for the meta, and if they don't have iron bundle than the water mu is pretty winnable with specs toedscruel.
https://pokepast.es/7d79743732f1d3d3
I also kind of wrote off the ice matchup, Iron Bundle is just that bad. The counterplay to it feels like hoping it's not Booster Energy Speed so you can outspeed with Scarf Sandy Shocks, and then hoping that hazards wears it down on the switches. The water matchup with it really only feels winnable if they oof and let their water/ground die, or let Iron Bundle get KOd. Every time it comes in I need to sack something pretty much.
One other thing I'll say, Specs Toedscruel is honestly pretty useful some matchups, water/grass/ground mirror in particular it stands out. Maybe I'll stumble on a build that handles ice/iron bundle a bit better in the future but right now it's pretty hopeless imo.
I'll try making a team with this, it still relies on having Iron Treads in already when they bring in Iron Bundle, but overall wear and tear with hazards and sand seems like the hail marry.
Let me write something about "possibly" the greatest addition to Mono Steel IMO
Iron Treads: This thing is pretty much a sidegrade for Excadrill and there is my reasoning why:
First, let´s compare base stast of both
HP: 90
Atk: 112
Def: 120
SpA: 72
SpD: 70
Spe: 106
HP: 110
Atk: 135
Def: 60
SpA: 50
SpD: 65
Spe: 88
Where Drill has more focus on killing power, and therefore is a better abuser of choiced items, Michelin here focuses more on durability and utility, yet it still retains quite a punch. It also has some things Drill wishes to.
Speed
Our Optimus prime here has 18 more speed than Drill, which can make quite a difference, since there are now more things that it can outspeed that would threaten other ground/steel mons, especially if you spec for it. On level 100 it gets 342 speed, which is not something would sneeze at, since it canget a jump on a lot of things.
Movepool
its movepool and stats make it quite splashable. Bulky supporter? Slap some sneaky pebbles and volt switch, and you´re golden. breaker? Band does a trick. Revenge killer? Scarf. It can provide the role of bulky/fast spinner, all out attacker, it can setup and sweep. if ND monotype will be released, I can see some Blunder policy Stomping tantrum
I don´t see Drill going anywhere, but I think that our mecha Mumakil would definetly have a place among steels as a hazard setter/remover, defensive pivot and/or offensive thread
...
I see myself out
nevertheless, I welcome this new buddy among the Steel teams, as I believe it could provide us with a ton of new tools... and also now I realized that powercreep is real, since this thing can go toe to toe with Excadrill...
Iron Treads: This thing is pretty much a sidegrade for Excadrill and there is my reasoning why:
First, let´s compare base stast of both
HP: 90
Atk: 112
Def: 120
SpA: 72
SpD: 70
Spe: 106
HP: 110
Atk: 135
Def: 60
SpA: 50
SpD: 65
Spe: 88
Where Drill has more focus on killing power, and therefore is a better abuser of choiced items, Michelin here focuses more on durability and utility, yet it still retains quite a punch. It also has some things Drill wishes to.
Speed
Our Optimus prime here has 18 more speed than Drill, which can make quite a difference, since there are now more things that it can outspeed that would threaten other ground/steel mons, especially if you spec for it. On level 100 it gets 342 speed, which is not something would sneeze at, since it canget a jump on a lot of things.
Movepool
its movepool and stats make it quite splashable. Bulky supporter? Slap some sneaky pebbles and volt switch, and you´re golden. breaker? Band does a trick. Revenge killer? Scarf. It can provide the role of bulky/fast spinner, all out attacker, it can setup and sweep. if ND monotype will be released, I can see some Blunder policy Stomping tantrum
I don´t see Drill going anywhere, but I think that our mecha Mumakil would definetly have a place among steels as a hazard setter/remover, defensive pivot and/or offensive thread
...
I see myself out
nevertheless, I welcome this new buddy among the Steel teams, as I believe it could provide us with a ton of new tools... and also now I realized that powercreep is real, since this thing can go toe to toe with Excadrill...
Hello everyone, long time mono poison amateur, thought I'd throw my hat in and give a minor poison analysis. I've been jumping on every poison game I could find and here are my thoughts so far.
Rankings are 4 for must have, 3 for good, 2 for ok and 1 for pass
Amoonguss 4 - thank the spirts he's still around, our only really good answer to ground and a good option against water. That said, water has several new treats that can sweep him if he's not careful.
Clodsire 3 - it's still hard to put this pudgy cutie. Great special bulk, water absorb for defensive or oblivious for offense, stealth rocks, both spikes, recover, some great attacking options. Too bad he's slow and earthquake/psychic weak (get used to me saying that). He's got potential, but how he's best played is still up for debate.
Dragalge 2 - don't get me wrong, he's been great on dragon teams, and good in previous generations. Nice bulk, sa and some good moves and resistances. The problem is he works better as dragon support than poison attacker. He's vulnerable to earthquake/psychic, not bulky enough for his speed, and gets out competed by other dragons or dragon killers. He's decent at what he does, but it's not enough to fit what a poison team needs right now
Gengar 3/4 - Gengar has always been ou for a reason. Admittedly, he would be better if levitate was still a thing, but he's a great scarf revenge killer at heart, and being able to terastalise to poison for extra power really helps. The one problem is his poor bulk. He's hard to switch into and if he doesn't kill in the first hit there's a good chance he's going down. At least cursed body helps with the follow up plays
Glimmora 4 - another new one, another confusing one. Great sa, ok speed, poor bulk. People still don't know how to use him fully, but I've seen alot of really good support builds with him. Spreading toxic spikes on impact or toxic on steel and poison types with corrode, spikes and stealth rock, screens even. Most importantly, he's got the only clearance move with a poisonous rapid spin. Don't get me wrong, earthquake/psychic weak and frail in general, but his utility will be interesting to see what happens.
Grafaiai 3 - going to be honest, when I first saw this monkey I wasn't impressed. Poor stats, no stand out moves shown and an ok typing, I thought he was going to be forgotten about. Then I see prankster. He's really doing well as a general support, taunt to mess with setup, parting shot to swap (I'm guessing this has more long term viability than the probably getting banned batton pass) knock off for damage and toxic. He's seeing more play as time goes on, a nice enabler if you have the team space
Iron Moth 3 - volcarona on the side of poison, how could it go wrong. Too bad we don't get quiver dance to really make him broken. Quark power might be nerfed soon, but he's a good sweeper if you get the setup with agility. Great offensive typing, and probably benefits the most from terastising. Just make sure he doesn't get hit, and he's outpaced by a few big hitters.
Muk 1 - Muk shouldn't be all that different to muk-alola, decent bulk, wide selection of moves, same abilities, so why is he so low down, especially since he has access to drain punch now? Oh right, muk-alola is part dark and has access to better dark type moves as well. Muk has a little bulk, but say it with me, he's earthquake/psychic weak, so it doesn't matter. What he does have is just out competed by generations of power creep.
Qwilfish 2 - the spiky boy follows in the footsteps of Muk, in having a much better dark counterpart. Poison water is alright, but we have better options. He makes for an ok suicide lead, but we don't have the power at the moment to back it up. Sad thing is that even hisuian Qwilfish is better, having psychic immunity and eviolite compatability, even without the evolved form he's just a better version to use. Some people might find intimidate useful, but it risks a contrary pokemon boosting to sweep easier.
Revavroom 2 - weird thing is, this guys like my reverse Grafaiai. I have been looking forward to this typing for a while, I was hoping for a defencive powerhouse, maybe with good attack to boot. Then I see his statline and moves. No real bulk, which is surprising for a steel type, poor movepool that only hits the types poison already has counters for, extra weak to earthquake and nothing much to show for it. I've seen people test it out, I know it's got bulldoze and assurance for some coverage (not that any I've seen have been using them) but every one I've seen so far gets ko'ed quickly before it gets to use any of its advantages. I don't know if its bias or people still figuring it out, but so far he hasn't been doing his best in my eyes
Salazzle 2/3 - another perusal mixed bag. Nice typing, nicer ability, but a lack of bulk leaves it wanting. We now have an alternative fire type with better bosting and defences in iron moth, and I personally never cared for the substitute/protect/black sludge cheese from the last generation. Still a good sweeper, but earthquake/psychic weak and frail.
Seviper 1 - he could have been somebody, he could have been the champ. Good movepool, good attacking stats, what went wrong? I'll tell cha what, no speed or bulk to fall back on. Hitting hard means nothing if cha not fast enough to hit first or tough enough to take the hit first.
Skuntank 3/4 - poison/dark has always been poisons most important type. Many have looked at this big stinky boy in previous generations, but his contemporaries have always outshined him. Too bad because he's all we've got now. I don't mean to make him sound useless, but honestly drapion and Muk-alolan brought more to the table. Even the new overqwil overshadowed him. He does have some useful moves for various builds, and sucker punch I've seen save games from sweeps. He can do the job, but middling stats and moves make me miss what we once had. Still, he's our only psychic immune member in this generation, so best make the most of it. At least aftermath punishes physical sweepers.
Swalot 1 - wow, of all the guys to make it into this game, he did? Say it with me earthquake/psychic weak, along with a poor movepool and soso stats, sorry buddy, cha never stood a chance.
Toxapex 4 - my sweet poison princess, at least I've still got cha. Still the best poison type in the game, every team should have one. Still even cha didn't come through untouched. Losing scald is major, and people are still struggling to find the perfect replacement. Chilling waters lowers attack, but less damage and reset by cha own haze, surf has raw damage, knock off has utility and possibly punish swaps to ghost or psychic types. Also, people have been favoring rocky helmet over black sludge, which seems to work. I once watched population bomb kill itself snacking into this, so worth it
Toxicroak 2/3 - kung-fu frog has had some buffs, in particular close combat as an all in fighting type move. Dry skin helps against water, less so against fire but we have a few more buffers against that. (ps, between him and Clodsire, is poison rain team an option?). Still has his age old problems of boor bulk and resistances, but with a greater shift from stall to balance he might find a home. Or at least till sneasler becomes available.
Toxtricity 2/3 - he feels very much like a seviper 2.0. Strong moves, powerful offensive typing, slow and frail. If cha can get him going great, but he frequently lacks the punch, speed or bulk needed.
Venomoth 1/2 - wow, it's like invert iron moth. Great quiver dance, too bad he's too frail to make use of it. I've seen people experiment with him, but he really needs 2/3 dances to succeed, and he'll probably be ko'ed before he gets the chance to finish the setup. Sorry, I've got good memories of cha in red and blue but power creep sucks.
Overall, while we have a few hurdles to overcome, poison isn't as bad off as I first thought. It looks like we need to adapt to a more balanced focus, a couple of walls to stall toxic and take hots while we try to set up a sweap. I can't wait to see what happens. Let me know if I missed anything.
Rankings are 4 for must have, 3 for good, 2 for ok and 1 for pass
Amoonguss 4 - thank the spirts he's still around, our only really good answer to ground and a good option against water. That said, water has several new treats that can sweep him if he's not careful.
Clodsire 3 - it's still hard to put this pudgy cutie. Great special bulk, water absorb for defensive or oblivious for offense, stealth rocks, both spikes, recover, some great attacking options. Too bad he's slow and earthquake/psychic weak (get used to me saying that). He's got potential, but how he's best played is still up for debate.
Dragalge 2 - don't get me wrong, he's been great on dragon teams, and good in previous generations. Nice bulk, sa and some good moves and resistances. The problem is he works better as dragon support than poison attacker. He's vulnerable to earthquake/psychic, not bulky enough for his speed, and gets out competed by other dragons or dragon killers. He's decent at what he does, but it's not enough to fit what a poison team needs right now
Gengar 3/4 - Gengar has always been ou for a reason. Admittedly, he would be better if levitate was still a thing, but he's a great scarf revenge killer at heart, and being able to terastalise to poison for extra power really helps. The one problem is his poor bulk. He's hard to switch into and if he doesn't kill in the first hit there's a good chance he's going down. At least cursed body helps with the follow up plays
Glimmora 4 - another new one, another confusing one. Great sa, ok speed, poor bulk. People still don't know how to use him fully, but I've seen alot of really good support builds with him. Spreading toxic spikes on impact or toxic on steel and poison types with corrode, spikes and stealth rock, screens even. Most importantly, he's got the only clearance move with a poisonous rapid spin. Don't get me wrong, earthquake/psychic weak and frail in general, but his utility will be interesting to see what happens.
Grafaiai 3 - going to be honest, when I first saw this monkey I wasn't impressed. Poor stats, no stand out moves shown and an ok typing, I thought he was going to be forgotten about. Then I see prankster. He's really doing well as a general support, taunt to mess with setup, parting shot to swap (I'm guessing this has more long term viability than the probably getting banned batton pass) knock off for damage and toxic. He's seeing more play as time goes on, a nice enabler if you have the team space
Iron Moth 3 - volcarona on the side of poison, how could it go wrong. Too bad we don't get quiver dance to really make him broken. Quark power might be nerfed soon, but he's a good sweeper if you get the setup with agility. Great offensive typing, and probably benefits the most from terastising. Just make sure he doesn't get hit, and he's outpaced by a few big hitters.
Muk 1 - Muk shouldn't be all that different to muk-alola, decent bulk, wide selection of moves, same abilities, so why is he so low down, especially since he has access to drain punch now? Oh right, muk-alola is part dark and has access to better dark type moves as well. Muk has a little bulk, but say it with me, he's earthquake/psychic weak, so it doesn't matter. What he does have is just out competed by generations of power creep.
Qwilfish 2 - the spiky boy follows in the footsteps of Muk, in having a much better dark counterpart. Poison water is alright, but we have better options. He makes for an ok suicide lead, but we don't have the power at the moment to back it up. Sad thing is that even hisuian Qwilfish is better, having psychic immunity and eviolite compatability, even without the evolved form he's just a better version to use. Some people might find intimidate useful, but it risks a contrary pokemon boosting to sweep easier.
Revavroom 2 - weird thing is, this guys like my reverse Grafaiai. I have been looking forward to this typing for a while, I was hoping for a defencive powerhouse, maybe with good attack to boot. Then I see his statline and moves. No real bulk, which is surprising for a steel type, poor movepool that only hits the types poison already has counters for, extra weak to earthquake and nothing much to show for it. I've seen people test it out, I know it's got bulldoze and assurance for some coverage (not that any I've seen have been using them) but every one I've seen so far gets ko'ed quickly before it gets to use any of its advantages. I don't know if its bias or people still figuring it out, but so far he hasn't been doing his best in my eyes
Salazzle 2/3 - another perusal mixed bag. Nice typing, nicer ability, but a lack of bulk leaves it wanting. We now have an alternative fire type with better bosting and defences in iron moth, and I personally never cared for the substitute/protect/black sludge cheese from the last generation. Still a good sweeper, but earthquake/psychic weak and frail.
Seviper 1 - he could have been somebody, he could have been the champ. Good movepool, good attacking stats, what went wrong? I'll tell cha what, no speed or bulk to fall back on. Hitting hard means nothing if cha not fast enough to hit first or tough enough to take the hit first.
Skuntank 3/4 - poison/dark has always been poisons most important type. Many have looked at this big stinky boy in previous generations, but his contemporaries have always outshined him. Too bad because he's all we've got now. I don't mean to make him sound useless, but honestly drapion and Muk-alolan brought more to the table. Even the new overqwil overshadowed him. He does have some useful moves for various builds, and sucker punch I've seen save games from sweeps. He can do the job, but middling stats and moves make me miss what we once had. Still, he's our only psychic immune member in this generation, so best make the most of it. At least aftermath punishes physical sweepers.
Swalot 1 - wow, of all the guys to make it into this game, he did? Say it with me earthquake/psychic weak, along with a poor movepool and soso stats, sorry buddy, cha never stood a chance.
Toxapex 4 - my sweet poison princess, at least I've still got cha. Still the best poison type in the game, every team should have one. Still even cha didn't come through untouched. Losing scald is major, and people are still struggling to find the perfect replacement. Chilling waters lowers attack, but less damage and reset by cha own haze, surf has raw damage, knock off has utility and possibly punish swaps to ghost or psychic types. Also, people have been favoring rocky helmet over black sludge, which seems to work. I once watched population bomb kill itself snacking into this, so worth it
Toxicroak 2/3 - kung-fu frog has had some buffs, in particular close combat as an all in fighting type move. Dry skin helps against water, less so against fire but we have a few more buffers against that. (ps, between him and Clodsire, is poison rain team an option?). Still has his age old problems of boor bulk and resistances, but with a greater shift from stall to balance he might find a home. Or at least till sneasler becomes available.
Toxtricity 2/3 - he feels very much like a seviper 2.0. Strong moves, powerful offensive typing, slow and frail. If cha can get him going great, but he frequently lacks the punch, speed or bulk needed.
Venomoth 1/2 - wow, it's like invert iron moth. Great quiver dance, too bad he's too frail to make use of it. I've seen people experiment with him, but he really needs 2/3 dances to succeed, and he'll probably be ko'ed before he gets the chance to finish the setup. Sorry, I've got good memories of cha in red and blue but power creep sucks.
Overall, while we have a few hurdles to overcome, poison isn't as bad off as I first thought. It looks like we need to adapt to a more balanced focus, a couple of walls to stall toxic and take hots while we try to set up a sweap. I can't wait to see what happens. Let me know if I missed anything.
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Been playing Rock alot, Despite it being bad it's not unplayable and fairly workable even with the like 10 pokemon with 3 of those being Lycanroc,
One pokemon I'd like to highlight for Rock is Garganacl:
This boy has great defenses in 100/130/90, access to Recover and has an amazing ability in Purifying Salt, which makes it immune to status and effectively has a Ghost resist, Finally it has a signature move in Salt Cure, it's 40 BP and does 1/8th per turn to the target, but this chip damage is increased to 1/4th against Water/Steel.
All these qualities make it great for taking hits and being annoying towards a fair bit of pokemon but most especially Toxapex, Corviknight and Gastrodon, Salt Cure puts them on a timer which pressures them to burn through recovery PP, and while Salt Cure doesn't trap, it does persist infinitely until they switch even after Garg faints or leaves the field Potentially forcing switches as well as puts your opponent (especially for Water/Steel) in a conundrum, Do they continue to stay and potentially let Garg start setting up Iron Defenses/Curses? or Do they switch out into something that will scare it off and risk that Pokemon which could also be very crucial getting hit with the chipl damage instead? Since at minimum against Water or Steel it's doing around 26-32% damage by the end of the turn if you combine the initial hit and the resulting chip damage and once it has setup, not much will stop it as long as it has Recover PP left and Sand is either still up or there isn't any strong Special Attackers to kill it and just really helps with the Water and Steel MU a little given how their entire team is weak to Salt Cure chip.
And I really want to emphasize the chip from Salt Cure, since with Sandstorm pokemon like Toxapex take around 30% or more in chip damage alone. Where as Corviknight just becomes a Body Press war where atleast half of the time Garg wins since Body Press becomes SE when it tries to Roost. It's not too scared of the soon to be banned Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu can barely touch it under sand, and while it can't necessarily switch into these, It can live stuff like Palafin's Jet Punch, Kingambit's Iron Head, Scizor's CC and BP and Quaquaval's Aqua Step and then to force some damage on them via Salt Cure, It really racks up chip damage and weakens teams down for pokemon like SD Sash Lycanroc-Dusk, SS Drednaw and Endure Anger Shell Klawf to clean up Late game.
Can't really show any calcs since it's still so early in the gen so no good calculators that I could find. But it tends to take alot of punishment and will probably be even more prominent when Home gives us more slow bulky mons for it to bully alongside the aforementioned Toxapex, Corviknight and Gastrodon.
As for the set I would say this has the potential to be the "standard" set:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Def / 176 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Iron Defense/Curse
- Salt Cure
- Body Press
I'm sure if more people are willing to put up with Rock rn more experimentation with how to use this Big Salt Golem more sets could come but this is the best way to use it currently, That's about all I feel I can say on this guy.
One pokemon I'd like to highlight for Rock is Garganacl:
This boy has great defenses in 100/130/90, access to Recover and has an amazing ability in Purifying Salt, which makes it immune to status and effectively has a Ghost resist, Finally it has a signature move in Salt Cure, it's 40 BP and does 1/8th per turn to the target, but this chip damage is increased to 1/4th against Water/Steel.
All these qualities make it great for taking hits and being annoying towards a fair bit of pokemon but most especially Toxapex, Corviknight and Gastrodon, Salt Cure puts them on a timer which pressures them to burn through recovery PP, and while Salt Cure doesn't trap, it does persist infinitely until they switch even after Garg faints or leaves the field Potentially forcing switches as well as puts your opponent (especially for Water/Steel) in a conundrum, Do they continue to stay and potentially let Garg start setting up Iron Defenses/Curses? or Do they switch out into something that will scare it off and risk that Pokemon which could also be very crucial getting hit with the chipl damage instead? Since at minimum against Water or Steel it's doing around 26-32% damage by the end of the turn if you combine the initial hit and the resulting chip damage and once it has setup, not much will stop it as long as it has Recover PP left and Sand is either still up or there isn't any strong Special Attackers to kill it and just really helps with the Water and Steel MU a little given how their entire team is weak to Salt Cure chip.
And I really want to emphasize the chip from Salt Cure, since with Sandstorm pokemon like Toxapex take around 30% or more in chip damage alone. Where as Corviknight just becomes a Body Press war where atleast half of the time Garg wins since Body Press becomes SE when it tries to Roost. It's not too scared of the soon to be banned Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu can barely touch it under sand, and while it can't necessarily switch into these, It can live stuff like Palafin's Jet Punch, Kingambit's Iron Head, Scizor's CC and BP and Quaquaval's Aqua Step and then to force some damage on them via Salt Cure, It really racks up chip damage and weakens teams down for pokemon like SD Sash Lycanroc-Dusk, SS Drednaw and Endure Anger Shell Klawf to clean up Late game.
Can't really show any calcs since it's still so early in the gen so no good calculators that I could find. But it tends to take alot of punishment and will probably be even more prominent when Home gives us more slow bulky mons for it to bully alongside the aforementioned Toxapex, Corviknight and Gastrodon.
As for the set I would say this has the potential to be the "standard" set:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Def / 176 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Iron Defense/Curse
- Salt Cure
- Body Press
I'm sure if more people are willing to put up with Rock rn more experimentation with how to use this Big Salt Golem more sets could come but this is the best way to use it currently, That's about all I feel I can say on this guy.
After few days it looks like we have a lot of broken pokemon here are the worst at my eyes.
These Pokemon are very similar,
I. They come to the field with a boost thanks to Booster Energy
II. They have setup move Calm Mind Dragon dance Sword Dance Agility ...
III. They have great Attack and Speed Stats
IV. Thanks to the Tera Mechanic they can change type and have stronger Stab.
V. They have strong support Screen in Fairy and Dark Rain and Momentum ( u-turn flip turn spam ) in Water
Crazy Stats with high Attack and good bulk.
Palafin hit like a truck with his prio and rain up
Baxcalibur is a worst Kyurem Black but thanks to 145 Atk stat and the tera ability to change type
and give you stronger stab he can do some crazy sweep
All These Pokemon are very strong and banworthy for some of them but at my eyes the thing who made these pokemon unstoppable is the Tera Mechanic.
And to show you how good this mechanic is, i will take one example.
The Scizor Example:
Here an example of Scizor who terastallize and kill Chi-Lu.
Here without terastallize Chi-Lu live at 26%.
I don't think i have to show you how good terastallize is defensively it help some good pokemon to set up and help them to hit like a truck even with the monotype restriction i think this mechanic is to much for the tier. With this thing up you will always have some unstoppable pokemon even Scizor in steel is hard to stop if you are not water or fire.
These Pokemon are very similar,
I. They come to the field with a boost thanks to Booster Energy
II. They have setup move Calm Mind Dragon dance Sword Dance Agility ...
III. They have great Attack and Speed Stats
IV. Thanks to the Tera Mechanic they can change type and have stronger Stab.
V. They have strong support Screen in Fairy and Dark Rain and Momentum ( u-turn flip turn spam ) in Water
Crazy Stats with high Attack and good bulk.
Palafin hit like a truck with his prio and rain up
Baxcalibur is a worst Kyurem Black but thanks to 145 Atk stat and the tera ability to change type
and give you stronger stab he can do some crazy sweep
All These Pokemon are very strong and banworthy for some of them but at my eyes the thing who made these pokemon unstoppable is the Tera Mechanic.
And to show you how good this mechanic is, i will take one example.
The Scizor Example:
Here an example of Scizor who terastallize and kill Chi-Lu.
Here without terastallize Chi-Lu live at 26%.
I don't think i have to show you how good terastallize is defensively it help some good pokemon to set up and help them to hit like a truck even with the monotype restriction i think this mechanic is to much for the tier. With this thing up you will always have some unstoppable pokemon even Scizor in steel is hard to stop if you are not water or fire.
People keep raising the point about Dark not getting any hazard removal. Dark's most prominent build in SS Monotype was Grimmsnarl + Galarian Moltres HO that didn't run any control at all beyond potential Taunts from Grimmsnarl. It's not that big a deal especially now with all the pickups Dark received. Ghost also didn't have realistic hazard control and was perfectly fine. (Please don't @ me talking about Dhelmise or Decidueye –– be real and honest with yourself.) Please let's play the games before commenting on what/what isn't unfair or broken. Hazard control has always been unfairly distributed.
Beyond that, nothing to add that hasn't really been said already. Based on experience playing with Water, Fire, Fighting, Dragon, and as always Dark
Clear-cuts:
Booster Energy
Flutter Mane
Chien-Pao
Watchlist (in rough order):
Roaring Moon
Palafin
Iron Valiant
Terastal
Chi-Yu
Iron Bundle
Dragapult (outright broken with Tera Ghost)
Baxcalibur
Potentials:
Cyclizar (Regenerator + Shed Tail turn 1 on Dragon just flat out wins against many types)
Dark/Ghost/Fairy/Dragon/Water/Ice are loaded with problem mons, most of whom find both their types listed here.
Beyond that, nothing to add that hasn't really been said already. Based on experience playing with Water, Fire, Fighting, Dragon, and as always Dark
Clear-cuts:
Booster Energy
Flutter Mane
Chien-Pao
Watchlist (in rough order):
Roaring Moon
Palafin
Iron Valiant
Terastal
Chi-Yu
Iron Bundle
Dragapult (outright broken with Tera Ghost)
Baxcalibur
Potentials:
Cyclizar (Regenerator + Shed Tail turn 1 on Dragon just flat out wins against many types)
Dark/Ghost/Fairy/Dragon/Water/Ice are loaded with problem mons, most of whom find both their types listed here.
In order of things I currently think need to be looked at (personal opinion not council)
tera in all forms > booster energy > baxcalibur + flutter mane + palafin + houndstone >
(all of the above are absolutely broken imo, way too strong for this meta even with the crazy power creep, barring major changes with home/future dlcs I don't ever expect to see these in SV monotype)
the fighting ghost ape, population bomb family, >
(Rage fist is an unbelievably crackhead move and fighting has revival blessing... or should have it eventually...maushold seems absurd but I could be swayed on this.)
>>> big delibird, iron valiant, roaring moon, cyclizar (knew i was forgetting something thanks Ironmage) > not sure what I think of these just yet in a meta without tera/booster energy but I think they've got a shot to be banned as well. The rest seem fairly absurd to me and I'm pretty sure I'll be voting to ban them asap.
Let me/council know what yall think, we should vote soon on a second wave. Primarily on stuff listed here.
Gonna be a tough generation to tier but looking forward to getting something stable going so this is playable at least for a while before the new mons come out...that should be fun lol
Btw, For those of you that missed it booster energy is 1.3x for all stats except speed which is still 1.5.
tera in all forms > booster energy > baxcalibur + flutter mane + palafin + houndstone >
(all of the above are absolutely broken imo, way too strong for this meta even with the crazy power creep, barring major changes with home/future dlcs I don't ever expect to see these in SV monotype)
the fighting ghost ape, population bomb family, >
(Rage fist is an unbelievably crackhead move and fighting has revival blessing... or should have it eventually...maushold seems absurd but I could be swayed on this.)
>>> big delibird, iron valiant, roaring moon, cyclizar (knew i was forgetting something thanks Ironmage) > not sure what I think of these just yet in a meta without tera/booster energy but I think they've got a shot to be banned as well. The rest seem fairly absurd to me and I'm pretty sure I'll be voting to ban them asap.
Let me/council know what yall think, we should vote soon on a second wave. Primarily on stuff listed here.
Gonna be a tough generation to tier but looking forward to getting something stable going so this is playable at least for a while before the new mons come out...that should be fun lol
Btw, For those of you that missed it booster energy is 1.3x for all stats except speed which is still 1.5.
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Even with my mono rock bias, I think everyone can agree that mono rock is the worst monotype by a long shot rn. I won't make this too long because it's genuinely painful to see how much mono rock got shit on this gen. Rock in gen 8 ran webs and trick room. They're rock's 2 methods of speed control and it's how rock usually applies offensive pressure on the opponent. What about gen 9? Shuckle, Stakataka and Diancie are gone. Both webs rock and trick room rock were thrown out the dexit window, making it much harder for rock to beat their offensive threats. Diancie coming back when Home comes out doesn't fix the problem since trick room is overall the less viable of the 2 and only having 1 setter isn't gonna be great. And it's not like mono rock is fast enough to not need speed control. Hell, it's even slower in gen 9 with the only rock type above 100 base speed being Lycanroc.
Rock also has very few options. There are a total of 12 fully evolved rock types right now. 10 if you count Lycanroc as 1 mon. And only 7 of those are actually viable (i still haven't tried klawf but i'm assuming it's bad). Previously unviable pokemon in mono rock like Lycanroc and Drednaw become a huge asset to mono rock not because they've gotten better, but because mono rock is so bad that anything mildly usable is considered a miracle now.
I really don't want people to subject themselves to using this type but if you really want to, here's my personal VR for mono rock. Sorry for being so pessimistic towards the type. I knew mono rock always got the short end of the stick, I'm just salty about how little it got and just how much it lost.
Rock also has very few options. There are a total of 12 fully evolved rock types right now. 10 if you count Lycanroc as 1 mon. And only 7 of those are actually viable (i still haven't tried klawf but i'm assuming it's bad). Previously unviable pokemon in mono rock like Lycanroc and Drednaw become a huge asset to mono rock not because they've gotten better, but because mono rock is so bad that anything mildly usable is considered a miracle now.
I really don't want people to subject themselves to using this type but if you really want to, here's my personal VR for mono rock. Sorry for being so pessimistic towards the type. I knew mono rock always got the short end of the stick, I'm just salty about how little it got and just how much it lost.
S tier
A tier
B tier
C tier
None lol idk
D tier
Bad
A tier
B tier
C tier
None lol idk
D tier
Bad
Even with my mono rock bias, I think everyone can agree that mono rock is the worst monotype by a long shot rn. I won't make this too long because it's genuinely painful to see how much mono rock got shit on this gen. Rock in gen 8 ran webs and trick room. They're rock's 2 methods of speed control and it's how rock usually applies offensive pressure on the opponent. What about gen 9? Shuckle, Stakataka and Diancie are gone. Both webs rock and trick room rock were thrown out the dexit window, making it much harder for rock to beat their offensive threats. Diancie coming back when Home comes out doesn't fix the problem since trick room is overall the less viable of the 2 and only having 1 setter isn't gonna be great. And it's not like mono rock is fast enough to not need speed control. Hell, it's even slower in gen 9 with the only rock type above 100 base speed being Lycanroc.
Rock also has very few options. There are a total of 12 fully evolved rock types right now. 10 if you count Lycanroc as 1 mon. And only 7 of those are actually viable (i still haven't tried klawf but i'm assuming it's bad). Previously unviable pokemon in mono rock like Lycanroc and Drednaw become a huge asset to mono rock not because they've gotten better, but because mono rock is so bad that anything mildly usable is considered a miracle now.
I really don't want people to subject themselves to using this type but if you really want to, here's my personal VR for mono rock. Sorry for being so pessimistic towards the type. I knew mono rock always got the short end of the stick, I'm just salty about how little it got and just how much it lost.
S tier
A tier
B tier
C tier
None lol idk
D tier
Bad
Hello friend,
I also delved into mono rock because frankly, I got bored of spamming the same types so I needed to use any type at that point, regardless of how viable the type is. Rock just feels incredibly naked rn. No mon that isn't weak to ground, no Cradily which also fits the previous problem, no Terrakion either. Garganacl and Glimmora are quite good mons imo but the moment you queue rock, if you encounter any of its weaknesses, it's just kinda over. I will say Band Lycanroc-Midday has actually saved certain matchups from being doomed. Sand Rush Adamant outruns everything even speed boosted Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle and coverage in Play Rough helps heavily in the Fighting MU so I wouldn't dismiss it as "bad lycanroc-dusk."
Klawf has also been quite disappointing, this mon kinda just does nothing even with Regenerator.
What types are y'all seeing Baxcalibur face against that makes it so hard to deal with >.>., I haven't had any trouble with it so far and the only types I don't have teams for right now are like fighting/flying/electric/dragon/psychic. Probs a couple types I played with where I haven't had to face it yet but it's never been the biggest danger in any of my matches yet. Also I gotta agree, Annihilape is hella underrated as a threat. With screens support, bulk up+taunt+drain punch+ rage fist can be impossible to handle. I love the ape but in my eyes it's worse than baxcalibur. Terra I honestly have liked so far with current implementation in mono, but I can probs be swayed to see it banned, regardless I honestly am not convinced it's broken just yet.
If I had to make a list for first banwave/things to suggest it would be booster energy+flutter mane + houndstone + palafin + roaring moon + Chien Pao with watch list of Iron Valiant + Iron Bundle + Cyclizar + Moushold + annihilape + Chi Yu + Baxcalibur + terra
You also haven't put any of the perils on your list, I think at least Chien Pao and Chi Yu gotta be looked at. I honestly think Cyclizar is worse than baxcalibur also, as support for dragon it's a bit much with shed tail, and if I'm being honest Baxalibur I see as the lowest priority of everything I listed
Mentioned earlier I agree with your opinions mostly, but I think to tier my own there's two separate scenarios, both in which Flutter Mane, Palafin, and Booster Energy all go.
If terastallization is banned first, I think even if given a few days to a week or more, the resulting metagame will still highly revolve around the three above. Booster Energy is stupidly good and readily abused, even though the mechanic was recently hotfixed to 1.3x rather than 1.5x for stats other then Speed. Flutter Mane and Palafin are simply too strong for the currently available pool of Pokémon.
Beyond that, I think a "next" tier that would become annoyingly powerful or close to it would include Baxcalibur, Houndstone (without tera you can argue it still hits like a truck if you save it for close to last, but I, personally, think it's less oppressive than both Palafin and Flutter Mane), Annihilape, and Chien-Pao. These mons may not be overwhelming now, but they're all weak to a Spe-boosted Flutter Mane or can be inhibited/slowed by a well played SpD/Def wall (Blissey/Ting-Lu). Get rid of Palafin and Flutter Mane first and these will surely creep up. I'd include the move Shed Tail here as well.
Below that I'd put Maushold and Roaring Moon.
And last I'd put Iron Bundle, Iron Valiant, and Chi-Yu. I don't think any of these three are necessarily going to be too oppressive without Terastallization, though Chi-Yu may be on the cusp.
Beyond that, I think a "next" tier that would become annoyingly powerful or close to it would include Baxcalibur, Houndstone (without tera you can argue it still hits like a truck if you save it for close to last, but I, personally, think it's less oppressive than both Palafin and Flutter Mane), Annihilape, and Chien-Pao. These mons may not be overwhelming now, but they're all weak to a Spe-boosted Flutter Mane or can be inhibited/slowed by a well played SpD/Def wall (Blissey/Ting-Lu). Get rid of Palafin and Flutter Mane first and these will surely creep up. I'd include the move Shed Tail here as well.
Below that I'd put Maushold and Roaring Moon.
And last I'd put Iron Bundle, Iron Valiant, and Chi-Yu. I don't think any of these three are necessarily going to be too oppressive without Terastallization, though Chi-Yu may be on the cusp.
I think this option is worse than banning it up front strictly due to some mons potentially losing their oppressiveness without the ability to get a free Adaptability boost and losing a secondary typing that may have made them more killable. We can hold off banning Terastallization for some arbitrary period, but in the long run, I think it saves more mons from being booted.
First tier here is almost the same, but added the ghost dog- Flutter Mane, Palafin, Houndstone, Booster Energy.
Second tier is Baxcalibur, Annihilape, Maushold, Chien-Pao, Dragapult, Roaring Moon, Shed Tail. I include Dragapult because a Terastallized Tera Blast saves it from having a two-turn ghost STAB, allowing it to do massive damage to most types immediately.
Third tier is Iron Bundle, Chi-Yu. I still don't think either of these is necessarily that bad. Yet.
Fourth tier is Iron Valiant. I'll admit it's hard for me to say this is going to be broken if Tera stays.
First tier here is almost the same, but added the ghost dog- Flutter Mane, Palafin, Houndstone, Booster Energy.
Second tier is Baxcalibur, Annihilape, Maushold, Chien-Pao, Dragapult, Roaring Moon, Shed Tail. I include Dragapult because a Terastallized Tera Blast saves it from having a two-turn ghost STAB, allowing it to do massive damage to most types immediately.
Third tier is Iron Bundle, Chi-Yu. I still don't think either of these is necessarily that bad. Yet.
Fourth tier is Iron Valiant. I'll admit it's hard for me to say this is going to be broken if Tera stays.
Were I voting for all these things to be tiered at the same time, I'd personally vote ban on Tera/Booster Energy/Palafin/Flutter Mane/Houndstone/Annihilape/Baxcalibur and see where the meta falls for further potential tiering afterwards.
Y'all maybe I'm missing something but I'm doubling down that Baxcalibur is nowhere as bad as anything you compared it to in your post. Even though I think a Booster Energy ban + terra ban may be enough to hinder Roaring Moon a bit, I still see it as more of a threat than Baxcalibur. Not to mention it seems pretty counterintuitive to only suggest bans that further help Dark Mono, and at the very least I think Roaring Moon or Chien Pao need to go in the first banwave. Maybe I can be proven wrong about Baxcalibur, but nobody I've talked to or asked about it has felt it was broken. At the very least can we start getting replays up in here for the mons we're suspecting. Most of what's been discussed seemed like common enough knowledge from just entering the meta, but Baxcalibur in particular is one I literally have seen nothing crazy for.
Annihilape is also a mon I have mixed feelings about. Rage Fist is crazy, and it's bulk up set I've used enough to know the damage it can do, but it has so far struck me as a mon that the meta may need to evolve around a bit but can find counterplay to. That's why I said it should be on watchlist but not immediate ban, it feels like a mon that's horrid when you first play but it took 1 game to understand team adjustments that could be made to make it less of a problem.
I'd also include Cyclizar in the ban. Unlike Houndstone/Mousehold, it doesn't make sense to propose a ban on the move in this situation. It's clear that Shed Tail Orthoworm is nowhere near a problem, and if we're going to ban what's unhealthy Cyclizar with Regenerator and it's utility set to help setup Mousehold + Mono dragon stands out.
One last thing, but after some thought the immediate terra ban makes alot of sense. It definitely makes bad matchups worse, and with Terrablast creates problems in mons like Dragapult as you said. Banning terra later would make us need to backtrack as the meta moves forward.
I'd personally say ban on Tera/Booster Energy/Palafin/Flutter Mane/Houndstone/Cyclizar/Chien Pao, though a roaring moon/maushold ban I wouldn't disagree with
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At this point, it might be obvious what to ban so I won't mention that but focusing on Baxcalibur, I'm gonna agree with WyvernKing here and wonder why everyone is so afraid of this mon at this current time.
I believe I recall a1012 or some mod in chat yesterday posted a Bax set that was running Loaded Dice DD with Icicle Spear. I ran Loaded Dice DD Kyurem Black in NDM and yes, I never landed below 4 hits on Icicle Spear so I can see why people see that DD Bax hits incredibly hard when you essentially have a 100-125BP Ice STAB that doesn't miss and also a 120BP non-Outrage Dragon STAB that doesn't miss coming off of 145 Atk. You also cannot be burned but then comes my issues.
This might become an issue in the future, emphasis on might. not at this current time. Baxcalibur is way too easy to revenge kill, most good types have either something that can outspeed or prio revenge kill it like Booster Energy/Scarf Bundle, Flutter Mane, Breloom etc and the issue is made worse if you get up rocks vs Dragon teams who's only like good removal option is Cyclizar, which is fine but that is looking like its on the chopping block and every other removal option Dragon has is kinda ehh. Ice teams on the other hand have snow boosting Bax's defence so it's hard to revenge kill on the physical side but my point still stands.
TLDR When bans start on the broken stuff, maybe Baxcalibur might be too much but even then it's still not bad to handle imo
Solid point with the hazard removal issue this gen, dragon's other options aren't nearly as reliable as Cyclizar which I personally see as more problematic to the meta with shed tail support. Between Baxcalibur's Ice typing and 87 base speed, I haven't found it incredibly difficult to revenge kill, and without Cyclizar as a spinner on dragon I'd want to see how Baxcalibur fairs with less reliable hazard removal. Not to mention there are mons on both Dragon and Ice that I see as a greater threat to the meta, Chien Pao, Roaring Moon, and Iron Bundle I all have higher on the priority list. It seems a pretty clear cut watchlist pokemon, especially since so many people have proposed first wave bans on ice and dragon types with Roaring Moon/Iron Bundle/Cyclizar/Chien Pao being in the hot seat.
One last thing I'll bring up, this targeted at the Annihilape discussion earlier. While the mon is a threat, the proposals to insta ban kinda came out of nowhere and I really don't think the community is on the same page with that one. I moreso saw it as something to watch after initial banwave, and when I asked about it the other day most people didn't think it was broken yet. I personally think it's a mon that people can learn to play around think it should be moreso on a watchlist. It seems to me so far that it's more of an issue on ghost, and again I'd rather wait and see after a week with initial bans for it to be a problem
whenever mods get ard to it, spam bp while you can!
Hello I play a lot in the ladder and I build a lot so i'm gonna write this post about my opinion in this metagame:
First of all I assume that in this generation there is so much powercreep that it's more interesting to leave things free than restrictions. About the pokémon I don't really see many really problematic pokémon since all types are on coke but the real problem for me is Houndstone which just makes the game totally unfair (even playing totally perfectly you can lose just on this pokémon)
About the tera I would be more in favor of leaving it, I don't find the mechanics as unfair as the dynamax and both people can use it. It allows for some nice defensive plays and I don't find it really gamebreaker.
I saw a lot of people talking about flutter mane, iron bundle, iron valiant but to be honest I don't think they should be banned right away since the main problem for me is the energy booster and I would be happy if they would be given a chance without the booster to avoid banning a Pokémon a little too fast even if for some cases it may seem a little obvious.
In short, I will be curious to see what gives the monotype without Houndstone and the Booster to see if some pokémon are so ban worthy, I sincerely hope that we will keep the tera because compared to the dynamax I find that it brings something good in monotype
First of all I assume that in this generation there is so much powercreep that it's more interesting to leave things free than restrictions. About the pokémon I don't really see many really problematic pokémon since all types are on coke but the real problem for me is Houndstone which just makes the game totally unfair (even playing totally perfectly you can lose just on this pokémon)
About the tera I would be more in favor of leaving it, I don't find the mechanics as unfair as the dynamax and both people can use it. It allows for some nice defensive plays and I don't find it really gamebreaker.
I saw a lot of people talking about flutter mane, iron bundle, iron valiant but to be honest I don't think they should be banned right away since the main problem for me is the energy booster and I would be happy if they would be given a chance without the booster to avoid banning a Pokémon a little too fast even if for some cases it may seem a little obvious.
In short, I will be curious to see what gives the monotype without Houndstone and the Booster to see if some pokémon are so ban worthy, I sincerely hope that we will keep the tera because compared to the dynamax I find that it brings something good in monotype
Alright, remember I made a first impressions for everything? Well as most of you can expect, I tried to play more and right now I have a new list. I feel like it is a lot more representative of the meta. As time goes on, we will see more polarized set. Most pokemon are either good or complete trash. I know doing this again is repetitive but council is currently working on QB round 2. Therefore I want idea of the meta before the bans
The new scale is
1: Trash
2: Niche
3. Good
4: Broken
(3)
: Same as before, it's just really good offensive user/suicide lead hazard setter
(3)
: Same as well, great defensive pokemon for ghost
(3)
: For how broken hazards are, this is basically a must on water
(1)
: Worse than I imagined
(3)
: It's just a good mon for normal, maybe not a staple cuz too much broken shit rn
(1)
: LMAO
(3.5)
: This thing is pretty busted, but defo not broken. Tinted lens is such a good ability
(2)
: Revival Blessing is its only niche,
(4)
: I will give my last respects before the move is banned
(2.5)
: This is like ditto for psychic and flying, or just a speed boost(modest) sweeper, It's not that good but psychic and flying really need it to counter set up
(1)
: Trash, IT'S SO SLOW
(1)
: Frail af, don't do enough damage
(2.5)
: it works, the physical bulk is quite nice, but why run mono water when there are similar option with extra good typing
(2)
: you have like no opportunity to set up lol, ur frail af and when you do set up, you can get easily revenge killed by priority
(4)
: Jet Punch + BU + Taunt + Drain punch + rain(ban plez)
(2)
: The "leech seed, strength sap, encore, coverage, harvest+33% berry" set is ok for grass and normal but it's not too special.
(2)
: Only viable in the sun,
(2.5)
: Slightly underwhelming, the movepool is kinda bad, but slack off is great for it.
(2.5)
: Dogshit on steel but great on poison(average 2 and 3)
(2)
: Better than people say, but not great. Decent hazard setter
(4)
: Technician + tidy up + pop bomb(plex ban)
(3)
: best slush rusher
(3)
: This shit is strong af, but it has shit def typing and weak to rocks(so it's not broken)
(3)
: Strong attacker for water and a special alternative to quaquavel, however, the bad movepool keeps it balanced
(4)
: knock off, rapid spin, slack off, and shed tail. This shit so broken, shed tailing with regenerator into any pokemon is so braindead(plez ban)
(3.5)
: This is the definition of a great mon. Great attack and speed. Great movepool for what it does. However, I think we need to ban revival blessing. This shit makes it so broken. Even without RB, this is amazing. I feel it doesn't compete with iron hands because I usually run electric with both.
(2)
: This pokemon is garbage. It has a shit movepool with the only decent move outside stab being uturn. However, it's flying's only electric immunity so once gliscor/lando comes, this shit useless.
(2)
: This is the only SR setting for flying. Period. that's its only niche
(1)
: lmao
(3)
: This is slightly weaker galarian-zapdos with scrappy, which is pretty good.
(1): This mon is dogshit, anger shell and regenerator cannot save this. Pure rock with average hp and bad spdef is laughable.
(3): Salt cure, purifying salt, recover, and good stats. This is required for rock
(3): This is, imo, the best hazard control and setter in the entire game rn
(2.5)
: Excellent support with meh typing. Good but not great
(3)
: It's just a good defensive mon for fairy.
(2)
: It's good, but dark does not need it at all.
(3)
: spikes + strength sap + leech seed + rapid spin + spin blocker. I don't about you guys but I feel this pokemon is amazing for ghost and grass. strength sap make it surprisingly bulky and it's a decent hazard centered pokemon.
(3.5)
: This pokemon is just a huge middle finger to so many strats: status, hazard removal, trick, taunt, etc. I mean this thing has recover. WTF. I ran a max bulk set with and without nasty plot and OMFG is it busted. This is single biggest reason running a stall team/semi-stall team is borderline unviable
(1)
: This is my favorite pokemon of the gen and it sucks. 75 attack with poor bulk is sad af.
(3)
: Stronger but slower Victini, but forced to be special attacker/defensive mon. It has a lot of utility like disable, will o wisp, destiny bond. I like it a lot
(3)
: The LO weak armor set is actually really good, if not for the fact that it competes with skeldirge. Still great pokemon. I tried running both and it actually works.
(2.5)
: It works but the bad typing is really hurting it. The ability, although it looks like a blessing, it's a curse. Although yes, it allows it bypass overcoat to not get the middle finger by gholdengo, -1 is absolutely huge. For a speed of 100, the ability is terrible.
(3)
: Very tanky, especially on physical side and can do huge damage
(3)
: Just a good defensive mon. For ground this is pretty much required lol.
(3)
: Rage fist is just a middle finger to switch moves. With some bulk investment, your rage fists can get to obscene powers and ghost + fighting is not slouch
(3)
: Weaker melm with rapid spin and ground&fighting stab, amazing.
(1)
: Legit trash.
(3)
: It just has a good typing. Movepool ain't the best but who cares when electric + ground hit so much of the meta.
(2)
: I legit think this is only viable on psychic who really need the screens support. On fairy, it just takes up too much real estate and I think klefki is just much better.
(4)
: No Comment(my hazard stack ghost team is legit just 5 hazard mon + this)
(3)
: Booster energy nerf hurts it quite a bit. However, it's still decent, 135 attack is great, it's just that it can't wall break as well
(3.5)
: Despite booster energy nerf, this still broken af. dd + jaw lock + eq + acro has little good switch
(2.5)
: Excadrill with higher speed but much lower power and it shows. It does so much less damage than I need: DISAPPOINTING.
(2)
: No QD + booster energy nerf = sadge
(3.5)
: This is fighting electric melm. It's borderline unkillable from the physical side, has fake out, has SD, and can volt switch out. like bruh.
(3)
: Better hydreigon in almost every way(typing, stats distribution, etc)
(2): imagine ttar without sand. This is it. Somehow they found an equally shit typing.
(3.5)
: Water Ice Flutter mane with slightly less but still immense amount of juice.
(3.5)
: This is amazing. Both special and physical sets are omega good. Booster energy just make it broken.
(3.5)
: HOW THE **** AM I SUPPOSED TO KILL THIS SHIT. It sets up rocks can do a lot of damage with EQ and BP. The only thing holding it hack from brokeness is the bad typing and no recovery.
(4)
: Encounterable late game.
(2)
: No recovery outside leech seed. This is just worse ferro thorn with dogshit typing.
(3.5)
: CHI YU ON MY ****ing nuts. I hate this thing. Good typing, great offenses and speed, as well as NP to boot. I legit want it banned.
Alright, now I want to talk about the ones I gave 3.5 or 4, giving my tiering decision wishes
4: Ban last respect
4: Ban the mon
4: Ban population bomb
4: Ban Shed Tail
4: Ban the mon
4: Suspect Test the mon
3.5: no tiering action(just omega strong)
3.5: Ban revival blessing
3.5: no tiering action(although I would not complain to ban it, good as gold is busted ability)
3.5: Ban Booster Energy, Suspect Test the mon
3.5: Ban Booster Energy
3.5: Ban Booster Energy, Suspect Test the mon
3.5: no tiering action(just omega bulky)
3.5: Suspect Test the mon(I want ban but it prob won't happen)
3.5: Ban Booster Energy
The new scale is
1: Trash
2: Niche
3. Good
4: Broken
(3)
: Same as before, it's just really good offensive user/suicide lead hazard setter(3)
: Same as well, great defensive pokemon for ghost(3)
: For how broken hazards are, this is basically a must on water(1)
: Worse than I imagined(3)
: It's just a good mon for normal, maybe not a staple cuz too much broken shit rn(1)
: LMAO(3.5)
: This thing is pretty busted, but defo not broken. Tinted lens is such a good ability(2)
: Revival Blessing is its only niche,(4)
: I will give my last respects before the move is banned(2.5)
: This is like ditto for psychic and flying, or just a speed boost(modest) sweeper, It's not that good but psychic and flying really need it to counter set up(1)
: Trash, IT'S SO SLOW(1)
: Frail af, don't do enough damage(2.5)
: it works, the physical bulk is quite nice, but why run mono water when there are similar option with extra good typing(2)
: you have like no opportunity to set up lol, ur frail af and when you do set up, you can get easily revenge killed by priority(4)
: Jet Punch + BU + Taunt + Drain punch + rain(ban plez)(2)
: The "leech seed, strength sap, encore, coverage, harvest+33% berry" set is ok for grass and normal but it's not too special.(2)
: Only viable in the sun,(2.5)
: Slightly underwhelming, the movepool is kinda bad, but slack off is great for it.(2.5)
: Dogshit on steel but great on poison(average 2 and 3)(2)
: Better than people say, but not great. Decent hazard setter(4)
: Technician + tidy up + pop bomb(plex ban)(3)
: best slush rusher(3)
: This shit is strong af, but it has shit def typing and weak to rocks(so it's not broken)(3)
: Strong attacker for water and a special alternative to quaquavel, however, the bad movepool keeps it balanced(4)
: knock off, rapid spin, slack off, and shed tail. This shit so broken, shed tailing with regenerator into any pokemon is so braindead(plez ban)(3.5)
: This is the definition of a great mon. Great attack and speed. Great movepool for what it does. However, I think we need to ban revival blessing. This shit makes it so broken. Even without RB, this is amazing. I feel it doesn't compete with iron hands because I usually run electric with both.(2)
: This pokemon is garbage. It has a shit movepool with the only decent move outside stab being uturn. However, it's flying's only electric immunity so once gliscor/lando comes, this shit useless.(2)
: This is the only SR setting for flying. Period. that's its only niche(1)
: lmao(3)
: This is slightly weaker galarian-zapdos with scrappy, which is pretty good.(1)
: This mon is dogshit, anger shell and regenerator cannot save this. Pure rock with average hp and bad spdef is laughable.(3)
: Salt cure, purifying salt, recover, and good stats. This is required for rock(3)
: This is, imo, the best hazard control and setter in the entire game rn(2.5)
: Excellent support with meh typing. Good but not great(3)
: It's just a good defensive mon for fairy.(2)
: It's good, but dark does not need it at all.(3)
: spikes + strength sap + leech seed + rapid spin + spin blocker. I don't about you guys but I feel this pokemon is amazing for ghost and grass. strength sap make it surprisingly bulky and it's a decent hazard centered pokemon.(3.5)
: This pokemon is just a huge middle finger to so many strats: status, hazard removal, trick, taunt, etc. I mean this thing has recover. WTF. I ran a max bulk set with and without nasty plot and OMFG is it busted. This is single biggest reason running a stall team/semi-stall team is borderline unviable(1)
: This is my favorite pokemon of the gen and it sucks. 75 attack with poor bulk is sad af.(3)
: Stronger but slower Victini, but forced to be special attacker/defensive mon. It has a lot of utility like disable, will o wisp, destiny bond. I like it a lot(3)
: The LO weak armor set is actually really good, if not for the fact that it competes with skeldirge. Still great pokemon. I tried running both and it actually works.(2.5)
: It works but the bad typing is really hurting it. The ability, although it looks like a blessing, it's a curse. Although yes, it allows it bypass overcoat to not get the middle finger by gholdengo, -1 is absolutely huge. For a speed of 100, the ability is terrible.(3)
: Very tanky, especially on physical side and can do huge damage(3)
: Just a good defensive mon. For ground this is pretty much required lol.(3)
: Rage fist is just a middle finger to switch moves. With some bulk investment, your rage fists can get to obscene powers and ghost + fighting is not slouch(3)
: Weaker melm with rapid spin and ground&fighting stab, amazing.(1)
: Legit trash.(3)
: It just has a good typing. Movepool ain't the best but who cares when electric + ground hit so much of the meta.(2)
: I legit think this is only viable on psychic who really need the screens support. On fairy, it just takes up too much real estate and I think klefki is just much better.(4)
: No Comment(my hazard stack ghost team is legit just 5 hazard mon + this)(3)
: Booster energy nerf hurts it quite a bit. However, it's still decent, 135 attack is great, it's just that it can't wall break as well(3.5)
: Despite booster energy nerf, this still broken af. dd + jaw lock + eq + acro has little good switch(2.5)
: Excadrill with higher speed but much lower power and it shows. It does so much less damage than I need: DISAPPOINTING.(2)
: No QD + booster energy nerf = sadge(3.5)
: This is fighting electric melm. It's borderline unkillable from the physical side, has fake out, has SD, and can volt switch out. like bruh.(3)
: Better hydreigon in almost every way(typing, stats distribution, etc)(2)
: imagine ttar without sand. This is it. Somehow they found an equally shit typing.(3.5)
: Water Ice Flutter mane with slightly less but still immense amount of juice.(3.5)
: This is amazing. Both special and physical sets are omega good. Booster energy just make it broken.(3.5)
: HOW THE **** AM I SUPPOSED TO KILL THIS SHIT. It sets up rocks can do a lot of damage with EQ and BP. The only thing holding it hack from brokeness is the bad typing and no recovery.(4)
: Encounterable late game.(2)
: No recovery outside leech seed. This is just worse ferro thorn with dogshit typing.(3.5)
: CHI YU ON MY ****ing nuts. I hate this thing. Good typing, great offenses and speed, as well as NP to boot. I legit want it banned.Alright, now I want to talk about the ones I gave 3.5 or 4, giving my tiering decision wishes
4
: Ban last respect4
: Ban the mon4
: Ban population bomb4
: Ban Shed Tail4
: Ban the mon4
: Suspect Test the mon3.5
: no tiering action(just omega strong)3.5
: Ban revival blessing3.5
: no tiering action(although I would not complain to ban it, good as gold is busted ability)3.5
: Ban Booster Energy, Suspect Test the mon3.5
: Ban Booster Energy3.5
: Ban Booster Energy, Suspect Test the mon3.5
: no tiering action(just omega bulky)3.5
: Suspect Test the mon(I want ban but it prob won't happen)3.5
: Ban Booster Energy
*edit: I didn't include Tera boost in the calcs... just FYI
I'll explain my Baxcalibur point a little first: I agree, it's not overwhelming at the moment because Flutter Mane exists. Being able to Terastallize and lose its weakness to Flutter Mane (if it had previously come in and DD'ed) allows it to live one (if +SpA or specs) or two (if +Spe), likely KO'ing the physical glass cannon that Flutter Mane is (relevant calcs: 252 SpA Flutter Many Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur Terastallized Ice: 120-142 (32.3 - 38.2%); Baxcalibur 4 hits Icicle Spear doing 75-88%, 5 hits doing 94-110%). You can say priority fighting type moves then revenge KO, but what on either of its types revenge KO's after its +1? Depending how healthy it is, Mimikyu may not be able to revenge (+1 252+ Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu through Reflect: 176-208 (70.1 - 82.8%); 5 hits has a roll to kill, though unfavorable), especially if Snow is up on Ice. There's no priority fighting type moves on Ghost or Fairy to revenge at that point, allowing it to chew through your team. In fact, the only two mons that get mach punch this generation (so far) are Breloom and the Pawmot line, which means you'd need to be running Grass or Fighting to revenge or come close to it, or in this meta, scarf something faster or rely on a Booster Energy +Spe Roaring Moon/Iron Valiant. On Dragon, Terastallizing removes this weakness altogether and you're left in the dust, if you run into some 4th slot Ice Shard set.
For Annihilape, you don't lose the boost to Rage Fist just because you swap out. On Ghost, the mon may end up being less than overwhelming, but on Fighting w/ access to a revival move, that's insanity. The reason it may not seem that way yet is due to the implementation of the move not matching the game itself, from what I gather. It can just come in and take small chip from U-turns or pivots over time, be sacked, and potentially brought back with a 50 times x boost in power. That's not healthy, despite the predictability. Access to recovery in Drain Punch helps in all but the mirror, but in that case, you have other options rather than Punching Glove to counter-team ghost (re: Scarf, sack, revive).
Yes, as I previously mentioned in the Bazaar, it may not be bad now. That doesn't mean it's healthy just because something else is arbitrarily more broken.
All of this is moot if and/or when Booster Energy or Terastallization goes, because they'd give the meta a reset in regards to figuring out what mons are broken without automatic boosts or free Adaptability whenever you should need it (except Flutter Mane and Palafin- they're still broken).
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Never once stated Baxcalibur was healthy just because Flutter Mane is in the tier. I'm just saying people are calling for action on a mon that hasn't proved itself at all at this current time and when the time comes and Baxcalibur ends up looking dire, then you can call for a ban and I would most likely agree if it's bad.
I have played about 10 games so far and here are my initial thoughts.
1. Why does everything have spikes, toxic spikes, and stealth rocks. Like omg. Even motherfucking Quagsire and Gastrodon have two or three of those hazards. Hazards were already troublesome; now it’s niche impossible not to use them.
2.: like wtf. This sweet dolphin looks like it wanna cuddle with you but before you realize, it fucks you in the ass.Top dolphin for sure
1. Why does everything have spikes, toxic spikes, and stealth rocks. Like omg. Even motherfucking Quagsire and Gastrodon have two or three of those hazards. Hazards were already troublesome; now it’s niche impossible not to use them.
2.
: like wtf. This sweet dolphin looks like it wanna cuddle with you but before you realize, it fucks you in the ass.Top dolphin for sure- Status