Other Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

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*edit: I didn't include Tera boost in the calcs... just FYI

I'll explain my Baxcalibur point a little first: I agree, it's not overwhelming at the moment because Flutter Mane exists. Being able to Terastallize and lose its weakness to Flutter Mane (if it had previously come in and DD'ed) allows it to live one (if +SpA or specs) or two (if +Spe), likely KO'ing the physical glass cannon that Flutter Mane is (relevant calcs: 252 SpA Flutter Many Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur Terastallized Ice: 120-142 (32.3 - 38.2%); Baxcalibur 4 hits Icicle Spear doing 75-88%, 5 hits doing 94-110%). You can say priority fighting type moves then revenge KO, but what on either of its types revenge KO's after its +1? Depending how healthy it is, Mimikyu may not be able to revenge (+1 252+ Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu through Reflect: 176-208 (70.1 - 82.8%); 5 hits has a roll to kill, though unfavorable), especially if Snow is up on Ice. There's no priority fighting type moves on Ghost or Fairy to revenge at that point, allowing it to chew through your team. In fact, the only two mons that get mach punch this generation (so far) are Breloom and the Pawmot line, which means you'd need to be running Grass or Fighting to revenge or come close to it, or in this meta, scarf something faster or rely on a Booster Energy +Spe Roaring Moon/Iron Valiant. On Dragon, Terastallizing removes this weakness altogether and you're left in the dust, if you run into some 4th slot Ice Shard set.
Your Baxcalibur point makes sense in a vacuum, but my experience so far goes the entire opposite way. One of the teams I use consistently is a ghost that has neither Flutter Mane or Last Respects, and Baxcalibur is by no means an issue for post Flutter Mane ban ghost. Aside from the fact that ghost mono is extremely HO and Baxcalibur cannot setup on most without taking a solid chunk of damage (Dragapult, Annihilape, Gholdengo, Mimikyu). There's also Skeledirge, which takes less than 50% from Glaive Rush, and Baxcalibur needs 2 high rolls to 2hko with EQ. Plus if you want to assume Bax is going to Terra, makes sense to assume ghost will as well, in which case Skeledirge walls a non terra Baxcalibur when it terra ghosts. 2HKOs with Torch Song if Bax goes Terra ice, while OHKOing following a glaive rush. And if Bax terra Dragons, then Skeledirge's terra shadow ball would do ~45%, and ~90% post glaive rush.
This is not even mentioning that Ghost has screens support. With Screens up it becomes even more difficult to attempt a setup with Baxcalibur.
Similarly, it's somewhat hard for me to follow the train of thought that leads to a Bax sweep vs. Fairy. You mention a lack of revenge killers on Fairy, but playing against fairy is playing against screens HO, where it may be hard to find an opportunity where screens aren't up. All the while it doesn't OHKO Azumarill at +2 even with Fairy screens down. Worst case scenario if there's no hail + fairy has screens up, Azumarill can belly drum and do 90% with aqua jet.

You're bringing up a theoretical scenario for a post ban meta to justify pushing for a ban now. Love you Ken but that is ABSURD. Not to mention but in my opinion the 2 types you brought up aren't ones that'll have major issue with Baxcalibur. If the issue you're bringing up is the Ghost and Fairy matchup, I can tell you right now that Ghost fully has answers. I literally find no Flutter Mane Ghost fun and have been using it since Day 3 of Gen 9. Either way it's very easy to prop something up as a monster when you set the conditions.
 
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About the tera I would be more in favor of leaving it, I don't find the mechanics as unfair as the dynamax and both people can use it. It allows for some nice defensive plays and I don't find it really gamebreaker.
I love Tera, especially for neutral matchups, as you said it makes for some fun defensive plays. Plus as someone who plays bug alot it's always fun to spam Terra First Impression Lokix. However, there are 2 kinda big issues with leaving terra in.
1. Terra as it's in right now inherently makes bad matchups harder to win against, even if both types get it, it's not like terra grass will do the same as terra fire in a grass v. fire.
2. From a tiering standpoint, it's a massive problem if we decide to ban it later. Right now one good example is Dragapult, where Terra Ghost Terrablast makes it EXTREMELY dangerous. Similar to how Dragapult was banned from Gen 8 Natdex Mono as a result of it's access to Z Ghost attacks, having an alternative to Phantom Force (with the adaptability boost from Terra) would make it suspect to ban. Whereas if terra gets the hammer there's no shot Dragapult gets banned.
This means that having Terra in will make certain mons more broken, while also worsening the bad matchups. Either way it's something that warrants discussion, and if we decide to have it banned it's better to have it banned sooner than later. Otherwise we'd end up in the mess of needing to resuspect and unban mons that initially got banned because of how potent a threat they were with Terra.
 

roxie

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Booster Energy


:sv/iron_valiant: :sv/roaring_moon: :sv/flutter_mane:

Booster Energy gives you an immediate (1.3x) stat boost on your highest stat with the exclusion of Speed, which raises your Speed by (1.5x). I believe the former coding error boosted any stat by 1.5x. Still, my issue with this is it gives you a stat boost immediately without the penalty of being locked into one move like choice items and being at a certain HP for pinch berries (I.E, Salac, Liechi). There are some good abusers, such as Iron Valiant if you want to forgo running a priority move, Flutter Mane, and Roaring Moon (but use the Atk one, not Speed..Scale Shot exists). There are some shitty Booster Energy abusers, such as Iron Bundle and Brute Bonnet, but that's not a good argument to not get rid of this item. This item was made specifically for these stat-boosted prehistoric/futuristic Pokemon, and it's more rewarding to run Pokemon that abuses this item compared to your less centralizing build with like Scarf Indeedee.
 
Booster Energy


:sv/iron_valiant: :sv/roaring_moon: :sv/flutter_mane:

Booster Energy gives you an immediate (1.3x) stat boost on your highest stat with the exclusion of Speed, which raises your Speed by (1.5x). I believe the former coding error boosted any stat by 1.5x. Still, my issue with this is it gives you a stat boost immediately without the penalty of being locked into one move like choice items and being at a certain HP for pinch berries (I.E, Salac, Liechi). There are some good abusers, such as Iron Valiant if you want to forgo running a priority move, Flutter Mane, and Roaring Moon (but use the Atk one, not Speed..Scale Shot exists). There are some shitty Booster Energy abusers, such as Iron Bundle and Brute Bonnet, but that's not a good argument to not get rid of this item. This item was made specifically for these stat-boosted prehistoric/futuristic Pokemon, and it's more rewarding to run Pokemon that abuses this item compared to your less centralizing build with like Scarf Indeedee.
So essentially it's a life orb except instead of 10% recoil on attacks, it only works until you switch out the first time (and can't be knocked off by the 6 or so pokemon who get the move + acrobatics shenanigans)
 
The tier currently has a huge problem! And yes I know it may surprise you. This problem I call it "council" a group of people who decided that the teracrystal mechanics that can only be used in the general type of the team should be banished. This without going through a suspect test to have an opinion of the players of the tier.
When we see pokémon like Flutter Man that are still in the tier at the time of the ban, we may wonder what is going on.
 
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Dead by Daylight

o green world, don't desert me now
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The tier currently has a huge problem! And yes I know it may surprise you. This problem I call it "council" a group of people who decided that the teracrystal mechanics that can only be used in the general type of the team should be banished. This without going through a suspect test to have an opinion of the players of the tier.
When we see pokémon like Flutter Man that are still in the tier at the time of the ban, we may wonder what is going on.
Here’s the problem: Terastallization was the catalyst for a ton of broken stuff in the tier. I can’t name them since I didn’t truly abuse it in most of my ladder games, but other, more respected and knowledgeable people can. I agree that Flutter Mane and Houndstone, besides others, should be sent off to Bikini Atoll, banning Terastallization was the right move for now.

Also, as a self-proclaimed Electric spammer, it pains me to see how much the type has fallen off. Let’s see the overview and my VR.


An Electric Eulogy

Electric is dead, plain and simple. It revolves around using Electric Terrain to boost already strong breakers to insanely unwallable levels. Now it can’t do the one trick that kept it afloat. It got massacred in the generational shift


Chapter 1: Going into Overdrive

Generation 8 was on the upswing. Electric got exactly what it needed: nothing. Regieleki was good, but it was hard-stopped by Grounds. However, the biggest buff to Electric was the dominance of Flying and Water, letting Electric electrocute both types once their immunities were gone. It was truly a time where the sparks of progress were flying.

Chapter 2: Our Inexorable Descent into Darkness

But all was not well in Scarlet and Violet. For starters, look at what Electric lost. It lost (at least for now)…

:tapu koko: The best Electric Terrain setter…

:Raichu-Alola: One, if not the best, Electric Terrain abusers…

:Regieleki: Electric’s ace in the hole against multiple types…

:Zapdos: The biggest counter to Ground-types…

:zeraora: And the best physical attacker.

What did it gain? Well…I’ll let you decide.

:sandy shocks: / :iron thorns: / :iron hands: / :pawmot: These four are actually incredibly good for Electric; however, that’s about as good as it gets. Both Iron Hands and Pawmot overlap somewhat as well.

:bellibolt: Pretty interesting; a massively powerful attacker who has okay coverage and is slow. Doesn’t truly fit the Electric mold, so maybe could see usage?

:kilowattrel: Seems meh to me, but better players could make it work.

Personal VR

S:

:sandy shocks: :iron thorns: :iron hands:

A:

:pawmot: :Rotom-wash:

B:

:magnezone: :Rotom-mow:

C:

:bellibolt: :pincurchin: :Rotom-frost: :kilowattrel: | maybe :jolteon:?

D:

everything else.
 

Neko

When you live for love, how precious life can be
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Here’s the problem: Terastallization was the catalyst for a ton of broken stuff in the tier. I can’t name them since I didn’t truly abuse it in most of my ladder games, but other, more respected and knowledgeable people can. I agree that Flutter Mane and Houndstone, besides others, should be sent off to Bikini Atoll, banning Terastallization was the right move for now.

Also, as a self-proclaimed Electric spammer, it pains me to see how much the type has fallen off. Let’s see the overview and my VR.


An Electric Eulogy

Electric is dead, plain and simple. It revolves around using Electric Terrain to boost already strong breakers to insanely unwallable levels. Now it can’t do the one trick that kept it afloat. It got massacred in the generational shift


Chapter 1: Going into Overdrive

Generation 8 was on the upswing. Electric got exactly what it needed: nothing. Regieleki was good, but it was hard-stopped by Grounds. However, the biggest buff to Electric was the dominance of Flying and Water, letting Electric electrocute both types once their immunities were gone. It was truly a time where the sparks of progress were flying.

Chapter 2: Our Inexorable Descent into Darkness

But all was not well in Scarlet and Violet. For starters, look at what Electric lost. It lost (at least for now)…

:tapu koko: The best Electric Terrain setter…

:Raichu-Alola: One, if not the best, Electric Terrain abusers…

:Regieleki: Electric’s ace in the hole against multiple types…

:Zapdos: The biggest counter to Ground-types…

:zeraora: And the best physical attacker.

What did it gain? Well…I’ll let you decide.

:sandy shocks: / :iron thorns: / :iron hands: / :pawmot: These four are actually incredibly good for Electric; however, that’s about as good as it gets. Both Iron Hands and Pawmot overlap somewhat as well.

:bellibolt: Pretty interesting; a massively powerful attacker who has okay coverage and is slow. Doesn’t truly fit the Electric mold, so maybe could see usage?

:kilowattrel: Seems meh to me, but better players could make it work.

Personal VR

S:

:sandy shocks: :iron thorns: :iron hands:

A:

:pawmot: :Rotom-wash:

B:

:magnezone: :Rotom-mow:

C:

:bellibolt: :pincurchin: :Rotom-frost: :kilowattrel: | maybe :jolteon:?

D:

everything else.
while electric suffers from having a gutted playstyle (no more surge surfer/koko), it still has a playstyle that it can plausibly do....
When in doubt, set screens
While its still pretty much sike, Elec can try to emulate what a lot of types are doing rn, considering you have Pokemon such as Toxtricity, Sandy Shocks, and Iron Thorns that all can take advantage of screens. It also helps that Iron hands greatly pressures Dark teams due to its sheer bulk, and the said bulk also lets the team not get eaten alive by flutter mane.
:bellibolt: :rotom-wash: :iron-thorns: :iron-hands: :toxtricity: :sandy-shocks:
While admittedly you kinda have an extremely low starting speed and get nommed by entry hazards and Mold Breaker earthquakes (thankfully there is no scarf Excadrill), its still a fun team to use.

However, if you're not much in the mood for something like this, you could instead try a composition that uses Magnezone / Iron Hands / Rotom-W / Toxitricity / Sandy-Shocks or Iron Thorns / filler instead, but balance isnt something that electric should be aspiring to do (with all the broken stuff running around). Iron Defense on Zone or Hands is very nasty btw, its nice to have if you intend to not use screens.

Pawmot is interesting btw, considering Bulk Up / Mach Punch / Close Combat / Crunch can potentially do a number to Steel, with the exception that unlike Exca, which would have good odds to get OHKO'ed by punching glove Mach Punch at +1, Iron Treads eats it up and retaliates with an Eq Pawmot would never survive (you can switch-in Rotom-W though)

*Oricorio getting Quiver dance and Bolt-Fly coverage in Revelation Dance and Hurricane is also notable, though I haven't tried it yet. :oricorio-pom-pom:

Oricorio-Pom-Pom @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dancer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Revelation Dance
- Hurricane / Air Slash
- Icy Wind / Substitute / Roost

That being said, due to the lack of Defog, screens are kinda stinky rn (aside from entry hazards). Hopefully this would be fixed in HOME, but not all types use screens anyway so Ig....its just a bit scary when Fairy/Dark sets them up and their Paradox mons starts blasting.
 
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Kev

Part of the journey is the end
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I've seen some complaining about the decision to ban terastallizing, so thought I would elaborate a bit more. It seems like a lot of the community was not around at the start of a generation before, or simply does not understand how the initial weeks go.

The main complaint I've seen is that the decision was too fast. That's one sentiment I can sympathize with, it's definitely disappointing having to lose the fresh, new mechanic - and it's unfortunate having to remove the most distinctive feature of the generation period. If anyone was around at the start of SS, they might remember that I did argue with the then council / leadership to try and keep Dynamax as long as possible for that exact reason. If it were just up to my personal preference and there wasn't a tier to balance, then I would've liked to keep it for longer. However, in order to actually get the tier to a playable state, it's clear we needed to remove this factor first.

I've seen a lot of people complain about mons not being banned yet as well, and that tera should've gone after them. As I said in the above paragraph, it made more sense to eliminate the common problem first before picking on specific Pokemon. Yes, some of them are going to be regardless of tera, but the mechanic contributed to their dominance and impacted many other Pokemon too so it was just natural to remove it first. A lot of the attitude regarding Pokemon not being banned make it sound like they are never being banned or that we aren't paying attention or something. I want to remind people how early gens work, quick bans come in, as the name implies, quick waves. Just because we haven't banned Flutter Mane or Roaring Moon yet, that doesn't mean we know how strong they are and aren't looking to address them within a matter of days. This is a period of the metagame where we can make bans every few days, and there is no real rush to get rid of everything all at once - there's no tournament being hurt by it. The best approach is to remove things that may depend on one another separately, to observe them in action instead of through theorymoning. In fact, we have spoken about upcoming bans already but ultimately decided that tera should be done alone because the ban of a mechanic is a fundamental change to the tier. Also, the attitude that it is gone forever is also completely wrong because we are definitely capable of revisiting if deemed bearable after future bans - however it is unlikely that the mechanic is suddenly not broken anymore. I'd personally at least like to have it in some monotype (tera type) slot in a team tournament - but we'll cross that bridge when we get there (don't make this thread about tour slots please).

The bottom line is that tera makes already difficult matchups worse as any chances that existed to play around are discounted by the advantage tera brings. The opportunity to not just freely get adaptability but also take advantage of your own ability, as well as run an item - and potentially get a better defensive typing for setting up or avoiding being revenge killed is just too strong, especially in the current landscape where everything is very offence oriented due to changes in the games. This isn't an isolated situation ether, like the old Scizor debates in previous generations of Monotype. Instead, tera spreads that lopsidedness throughout the whole metagame. I've seen some absurd, ludicrous arguments from anti-ban people such as "If Scizor after SD with tera sweeps Fairy, just don't let it SD". That mentality is so insanely nonsensical to me, and can just be thrown at everything. Why ban anything - just stop it from winning!" A lot of the no ban voters have the mentality of ban the Pokemon that are strong with the mechanic instead of the mechanic itself. That strategy is not maintainable in the long term - how many Pokemon do you expect us to ban? There is a line that defines when it's the mechanics fault and no longer the Pokemons and that has been crossed. Just ask yourselves, why do low tiers ban weathers instead of the weather abusers? In fact, I remember for some of them it was a constant back in forth where they had tried to get rid of the abusers but it didn't help since the weather still ended up being broken as new abusers just took their place.

Ultimately, I really do sympathize with anyone that might be disappointed tera is banned already - hell I am too. But, this is a competitive format - we do not tier for fun nor for how cool something is, we tier for health and playability.

Anyways, as for future bans and discussions, here's my personal short list of things I want to address / talk about first, it would be nice to see some discussion and opinions regarding them, in parallel with the councils how discussion. Because yes, we do pay attention even if not everyone is often posting in threads or replying to stuff in these because we do have lives which might be surprising to some. Want to remind people that if your contribution to the tier is whining in discords about the council or the tier, or in the room, and not posting actually constructive, detailed posts - then you are the problem. You see a lot of these people every gen, but if you aren't gonna contribute meaningfully then you don't get the right to complain.

My list:
- Flutter Mane
- Roaring Moon
- Booster Energy
- Palafin
- Houndstone

There's some more things I'd want to look at, but these are the top 5 on my mind rn and they aren't in any particular order. And yet again, just because I listed x things doesn't mean they'll all be gone or all be gone together...feel like this needs to be reminded again and again


The tier currently has a huge problem! And yes I know it may surprise you. This problem I call it "council" a group of people who decided that the teracrystal mechanics that can only be used in the general type of the team should be banished. This without going through a suspect test to have an opinion of the players of the tier.
When we see pokémon like Flutter Man that are still in the tier at the time of the ban, we may wonder what is going on.
I can't tell if you are complaining that we restricted tera types to match the team type at first or just about it being banned. If it's the prior, which I've seen others complain about anyways, it may be a shocker but Monotype refers to Pokemon a team sharing one type. As it is for Mega evolutions in ORAS and SM, where losing your type means you can't be on that type (ex: Mega Gyarados on Flying), it made no sense to allow general tera types. As for why it was banned - and why certain Pokemon aren't banned you can read the rest of the post to understand how tiering is supposed to work. As for the lack of a suspect test, refer to last generation where every tier banned Dynamax without a suspect. The early stage of every generation is reserved for quick bans because you want to remove broken elements quickly and not drag the development of the playable metagame. If something is deemed acceptable later on, it can be brought back (ex: Water Urshifu was quick banned when released as it was hurting MPL quality, and unbanned after the tournament when it was deemed safe / the tier proved to be stable enough for it exist). If you expect us to suspect test every single thing instead of quick bans the tier would never be stable. A suspect test period takes about a month since you need discussion time + laddering time + voting time + aftermath assessment time. We'd be doing suspect tests all year and not getting rid of obvious problems, and it would just get worse as Home and DLCs get released to shake up the tier even more.

I urge people to actually think about tiering in a bigger picture instead of a bubble, or with their emotions. There is a lot of things we need to consider when it comes to getting the tier to a stable position before the circuit begins next year - so that we can actually have a competitive game and not constant chaos. If you disagree with something, give actual arguments on why our decision was wrong instead of whining because you are doing no one favours except maybe your ego - I see two much of that in discords, the room and even this thread. If there is nothing constructive to contribute just don't bother saying anything
 
I can't tell if you are complaining that we restricted tera types to match the team type at first or just about it being banned.
"teracrystal mechanics that can only be used in the general type of the team should be banished." Saying that in the sense that it is the tier where the tera is the softest and it the first tier where it is ban.
In my opinion, the Pokémon mentioned in the ban list and the booster should have been suspected before the ban of the tera to have a more stable tier. Or you're hoping that the tera ban makes Pokémon like Flutter Man, or Palafin more manageable, which is closer to a bad joke than anything else.
Are you currently having Pokémon that abuse the tera that are on your radar not because they are too strong but currently too strong because of the tera at a stage where a quick ban is considered. If yes which?
Of course, tera won't help make complicated matchups easier to win. From this point of view I understand the ban. But it's still too early the tier is still very unstable and the tera is not the main consequence of that it is in one among others, it's not like you're going to ban(/suspect) Dragapult before Houndstone. So why are you banishing the mechanics of a generation so early?
And also sorry if I offended the council in my first message but such an important ban should not be summarized in 4 poor line.
 
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It's not surprising that terastallizing was unanimously banned from Monotype. I believe the moment we found out more information on terastallizing (gaining additional stab, etc.) I knew it was gonna be at least suspect tested within this generation if for any reason, would be ghost with dragapult (Ghost will always be the one to pay for gamefreak's sins it seems). I personally do not care either way, but after reading Kev's post, and hearing an detail explanation, it makes much more sense to quickban terastallizing to see what ACTUALLY is a problem, and then later down the line see if terastallizing is actually balanced in a more stabilized metagame and hearing his explanation, couldn't this exact same argument be made about Booster Energy? You have some already high suspect abusers of it in Flutter Mane, Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, and I have heard even some say Iron Bundle (lol). Are these particular pokemon a problem because Booster Energy is broken or they themselves are broken? Of course Flutter Mane is broken regardless of the answer and needs to go, but its an interesting conversation for the rest.
 

ken

gm
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Monotype Leader
My list:
- Flutter Mane
Mood. Okay, here we go, starting with the lowest hanging fruit:

:sv/flutter mane:
I've seen a few sets that are becoming more/most common, namely sub + CM or choiced, mostly specs > scarf due to its already high base speed. For some examples, let's evaluate stats and potential damage output this mon can do.

At +0, prior to any CM, it can already put out some substantial power thanks to both its STABs and/or coverage in Psyshock, Stored Power, Energy Ball, Thunder/Thunderbolt, Hyper Beam, or more. Add to this that the only guaranteed faster non-scarves (Chien-Pao is a tie) in the tier (assuming it's not +Spe Booster Energy) are Barraskewda, Dragapult, Iron Bundle, and Electrode, you've got a recipe for quickly being able to sweep or clean late game. Furthermore, it has access to screens on both types (thought slightly more wonky on Ghost) it may be used on, not to mention decent hazard stacking options, so that it may not even really need to set up in order to take care of anything that may come in front of it, with the exception of some priority moves, Physical Spe+ Paradox mons if Flutter Mane isn't Spe+, or having the wrong coverage.

Threats Mono chat gave me:

:Flutter Mane: Speed ties, good luck! In all seriousness, depending which type you're using, you either swap out or risk a potential speed tie if you're both Spe+ Booster Energy or neither are.
Relevant calc:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane: 206-246 (82 - 98%)

:Dragapult: Spe+ natures naturally outspeed non-Booster Energy Spe+ variants and can OHKO with Phantom Force, though this allows the opportunity to switch. If its behind a sub and the Dragapult isn't Infiltrator, it's also simply going to perish. Specs/Timid Dragapult is capable of OHKO'ing with Shadow Ball; however, this relies on on Infiltrator or screens not being up.
Relevant calcs:
252 Atk Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 450-530 (179.2 - 211.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane: 254-300 (101.1 - 119.5%)

:Dragalge: SpD bulk helps here, but as previously mentioned, Flutter Mane may run Psyshock (in which case you can't switch in for free). Dragalge may help in a myriad of ways, the most obvious in the fact it may set TSpikes, which could put Flutter Mane on a timer. That being said, if Flutter Mane manages to get in prior to Dragalge setting hazards, there's some issues. However, you can likely EV this scenario so that you have a check, not counter, to Flutter Mane, which I will attempt to show below. Unfortunately, the Atk investment in order to guarantee the KO is likely too high a price for the Dragalge to function as a broad SpD wall.
Relevant calcs:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 100-118 (29.9 - 35.3%)
252 SpA Flutter Mane Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 196-232 (58.6 - 69.4%)
4 Atk Adaptability Dragalge Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 222-262 (88.4 - 104.3%)
108 Atk Adaptability Dragalge Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 252-298 (100.3 - 118.7%)

:Corviknight: SpD Corviknight may be able to pull off some type of help here, but only after sacking something else. If Flutter Mane is running Thunderbolt, you get to swap in and/or get one guaranteed Brave Bird, if you're running that on your SpD Corviknight, before perishing, that doesn't even guarantee a roll for a KO after 1 layer of spikes damage on a Flutter Mane. Iron Head is a better option, as mentioned by Neko. If Flutter Mane is running Thunder, you better pray they miss.
Relevant calcs:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 162-192 (40.5 - 48%)
252 SpA Flutter Mane Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%)
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 186-219 (74.1 - 87.2%)
0 Atk Corviknight Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 248-294 (98.8 - 117.1%)

:Iron Hands: This may be one of the better options to actually check a Flutter Mane. Iron Hands is thick. Like, thick thick. With a whopping 154 base HP and fully invested SpD paired with an Assault Vest, this may be one mon that Flutter Mane actually would have issues KOing, despite the type advantage. Pair that with access to Heavy Slam and Flutter Mane gets checked. Flutter Mane needs to be +1 (if Timid and non-+SpA Booster Energy) to even have a chance to 2HKO AV Iron Hands.
Relevant calcs:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 198-234 (38.6 - 45.7%)
0 Atk Iron Hands Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 374-440 (149 - 175.2%)

:Mimikyu: A still-Disguised Mimikyu is a full check to Flutter Mane, but only assuming Flutter Mane is not behind a sub with close to full HP (if someone is randomly running leftovers, I guess). It reliably 2HKO's Flutter Mane with any of Play Rough, Shadow Punch, or Shadow Sneak.
Relevant calcs:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mimikyu: 258-306 (102.7 - 121.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 242-285 (96.4 - 113.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 218-257 (86.8 - 102.3%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 374-445 (149 - 177.2%)

:Kingambit: Fat enough that it could help, running max HP/max Atk adamant Kingambit may function as a soft check for Flutter Mane. Moonblast from a non-SpA boosted Flutter Mane is a roll to 2hko, while Iron Head or Kowtow Cleave from Kingambit return a OHKO, or if just needed to break a sub, may be followed up with a Sucker Punch to most likely KO.
Relevant calcs:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%)
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 476-564 (189.6 - 224.7%)
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 255-300 (101.5 - 119.5%)
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 210-247 (83.6 - 98.4%)

:Chien-Pao: Strong and with an ability to benefit neutral moves doing more damage to Flutter Mane, it can work. Decreasing Flutter Mane's defense by 25% actually helps with non-banded rolls to go in Chien-Pao's favor, or if a Flutter Mane is somewhat chipped already, an Ice Shard may be able to revenge.
Relevant calcs (not coded for including the 25% def reduction on Flutter Mane, I believe, so Ice Spinner & Crunch should OHKO):
252 Atk Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 175-207 (69.7 - 82.4%)
252 Atk Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 201-237 (80 - 94.4%)
252 Atk Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 201-237 (80 - 94.4%)
252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 456-536 (151.4 - 178%)

:Tyranitar: SpD Tyranitar is not really so much of a threat so much as it may be used on Dark to attempt to revenge or chip for something with priority, or to set Sand to help the rest of Rock (though please choose another type, Rock is down horrendous). Fully SpD/HP Tyranitar is a 3HKO from a non-SpA boosted Flutter Mane, but with Rock Blast can do significant damage back and potentially KO thanks to Flutter Mane's weak as hell Def stat and low HP, or paralyze it if you'd be so inclined as to click Thunder Wave.
Relevant calcs:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%)
0 Atk Tyranitar Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 171-201 (68.1 - 80%)
0 Atk Tyranitar Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 285-335 (113.5 - 133.4%)

Other threats:

Depending on coverage, the following mons may also function as soft checks, though this is not an exhaustive list and relies for some of them on no stat drops occurring:
:Toxapex:
:Palafin-Hero:
:Quaquaval:
:Barraskewda:
:Scizor:
:Magnezone: (with analytic)
:Blissey:
:Frosmoth:
:Iron Treads:
:Gastrodon:
:Clodsire:
:Iron Moth:
:Volcarona:

I'm sure more slight checks exist beyond this list as it's not meant to be exhaustive, but simply demonstrate how simply good Flutter Mane is (and ideally maybe convince you it's unhealthy in Monotype at the present time).


S/O Neko, bigpapa0of, roxie for suggestions, Azick for being slow to respond

If you want me to make more lmk I'm bored and have too much free time this weekend!

Edits: fixed calcs/added ihead to Corv
 
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Neko

When you live for love, how precious life can be
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SpD Corviknight
I forgot to add, but Corv has Iron head. So a set such as ID/BP/Iron Head/Roost helps not only in flutt mu, but also on Fighting/Dark/Dragon

Also, Iron Hands calc is incorrect, as its part Fighting:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 216-254 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
but you do smash it with Hslam so its all fine
 
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Fun mon I'll give a shoutout to is Dondozo, rest/sleep talk/curse/wave crash or liquidation with max special d and incredible natural physical bulk along with unaware is a gnarly set vs. some teams. Not broken or anything, but kinda think it's a mon sorta similar to Reuniclus in that it might end up being more of a tour pokemon for matchups. Either way it's presence on water monos definitely flips some matchups in waters favor imo, especially against types that lack strong special wallbreakers. Fairy is one matchup in particular where I imagine Dondozo being a problem to deal with, with unaware making it impossible to break with setup sweepers. Plus if Flutter Mane gets banned, the only fairies with a special attack over 120 would be Gardevoir and Hatterene. With Unaware making the latter setup fodder, though Gardevoir I could imagine being more of an issue with trace. Anyhow, once Dondozo gets to +1 physical attackers become incapable of breaking it - here are some calcs (some are kinda random).
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 159-187 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Wood Hammer vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 159-187 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Slither Wing Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 172-203 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- 32.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Annihilape Rage Fist(100BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 99-117 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 205-243 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Anyhow I don't think it's overly busted or bad for the meta, just a mon that flew under my radar that I think could be neat for some team comps. It's bulk is insane, and though it has some fatal flaws with inability to do anything vs. water immunes, susceptible to taunt, and reliant on resttalk. It's a cool mon to change the pace a bit in this meta and is incredibly dangerous vs. some types. I started to see it pop up a bit more in mono, and it's seemingly everywhere in ou from what I've seen, so I'm thinking it might be a mon we see increase in usage over the next few weeks.
 
Since it is really early, I simply hope that once broken pokemons are banned and the metagame is stable the council will consider a suspect test for tera to assess if it was broken now because it's really broken or just because it was available on broken pokemons. It's the one and only mechanic for this gen, I don't think it will be appropriate to deny such a suspect test in the future simply by saying "the meta is stable now", the target should be to be able to play using the game mechanic and not be lazy to put on some efforts to integrate tera in the meta
 
I've seen a lot of people complain about mons not being banned yet as well, and that tera should've gone after them. As I said in the above paragraph, it made more sense to eliminate the common problem first before picking on specific Pokemon. Yes, some of them are going to be regardless of tera, but the mechanic contributed to their dominance and impacted many other Pokemon too so it was just natural to remove it first. A lot of the attitude regarding Pokemon not being banned make it sound like they are never being banned or that we aren't paying attention or something. I want to remind people how early gens work, quick bans come in, as the name implies, quick waves. Just because we haven't banned Flutter Mane or Roaring Moon yet, that doesn't mean we know how strong they are and aren't looking to address them within a matter of days. This is a period of the metagame where we can make bans every few days, and there is no real rush to get rid of everything all at once - there's no tournament being hurt by it. The best approach is to remove things that may depend on one another separately, to observe them in action instead of through theorymoning. In fact, we have spoken about upcoming bans already but ultimately decided that tera should be done alone because the ban of a mechanic is a fundamental change to the tier. Also, the attitude that it is gone forever is also completely wrong because we are definitely capable of revisiting if deemed bearable after future bans - however it is unlikely that the mechanic is suddenly not broken anymore. I'd personally at least like to have it in some monotype (tera type) slot in a team tournament - but we'll cross that bridge when we get there (don't make this thread about tour slots please).
First things first lets talk about the order of tiering decision. While it is perfect fine to assume the terestalize mechanic is broken on itself, it is important to note that a great majority of its strongest abusers are within the ban radar list (which include problematic pokemon like Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, Palafin, and the list goes on as many people know). Even after teras ban, those Pokemon are clearly overperforming and ruining a lot of games, something that likely wouldn't have happened if the Pokemon were banned first. I believe most of the community's complaints come from the fact that the metagame could have been better right now if the most broken issues were accounted first, and not if they will or not happen.
This becomes even more apparent as we analyze the tiering decisions from other tiers such as OU tiering decisions, which have shown a greater improvement for their tier, and while Monotype is clearly different than OU, their approach appears to be more effective as it accounts whats breaking the tier the most rather than what's the most broad mechanic to evaluate.

Secondly, the "new mechanic" comparison. Terestalize is not anywhere as broken as Dynamax. It is unfair to give it the same treatment, regardless of what the decisions of keeping it or banning it in the past have been taken. While I do agree teras are also uncompetitive in the sense they last permanently after you activate it ( + giving it a 2x STAB boost to the tera type), I don't see it being more broken than Pokemon that can reach 600 speed without being choice locked and still punch holes in so many different builds. For instance, Flutter Mane singlehandedly flips so many matchups on its favor, almost completely invalidating types like Fighting, Dragon, Electric and Psychic. Also, because terestalize is a more accessible mechanic to every given type, it also would reduce the centralization of viable types we would have right this second, even though it affects types in a different way. If you are not using Ghost, Dark, Fairy or Water you are essentially handicapping yourself, almost as if they were the only playable types. Teams and type variety could have been a lot bigger (and therefore, the eagerness for testing and developing the tier) if the Pokemon were addressed first, and thus we would have a better meta right now for tours.

The bottom line is that tera makes already difficult matchups worse as any chances that existed to play around are discounted by the advantage tera brings. The opportunity to not just freely get adaptability but also take advantage of your own ability, as well as run an item - and potentially get a better defensive typing for setting up or avoiding being revenge killed is just too strong, especially in the current landscape where everything is very offence oriented due to changes in the games. This isn't an isolated situation ether, like the old Scizor debates in previous generations of Monotype. Instead, tera spreads that lopsidedness throughout the whole metagame. I've seen some absurd, ludicrous arguments from anti-ban people such as "If Scizor after SD with tera sweeps Fairy, just don't let it SD". That mentality is so insanely nonsensical to me, and can just be thrown at everything. Why ban anything - just stop it from winning!" A lot of the no ban voters have the mentality of ban the Pokemon that are strong with the mechanic instead of the mechanic itself. That strategy is not maintainable in the long term - how many Pokemon do you expect us to ban? There is a line that defines when it's the mechanics fault and no longer the Pokemons and that has been crossed. Just ask yourselves, why do low tiers ban weathers instead of the weather abusers? In fact, I remember for some of them it was a constant back in forth where they had tried to get rid of the abusers but it didn't help since the weather still ended up being broken as new abusers just took their place.
This is certainly a lot better than having the same 4~5 Pokemon steamrolling every game, and forcing players to use the same 4-5 types in order not to handicap themselves. The weather comparison shouldn't come to this case because none of them is inherently broken without the weather, whereas most terestalize abusers are broken regardless of the mechanic being or not around.

This is a period of the metagame where we can make bans every few days, and there is no real rush to get rid of everything all at once - there's no tournament being hurt by it.
Saying "no tournament is going to get ruined" is also not really true and a understatement given the "Welcome to Scarlet/Violet Tournament" is about to begin soon, and certainly the order of the tiering decisions is going to affect the outcome of the competition. Regardless of whether you care that much about that tournament, there are players who want to give their best and win. I know there will be players testing their techs and figuring out a lot of new stuff that hasn't been showed up yet, but the real point is that it is going to be affected. Just because it is a field-test of sorts does not mean the health of the competitive environment is to be overlooked right this second.

I urge people to actually think about tiering in a bigger picture instead of a bubble, or with their emotions. There is a lot of things we need to consider when it comes to getting the tier to a stable position before the circuit begins next year - so that we can actually have a competitive game and not constant chaos. If you disagree with something, give actual arguments on why our decision was wrong instead of whining because you are doing no one favours except maybe your ego - I see two much of that in discords, the room and even this thread. If there is nothing constructive to contribute just don't bother saying anything
Finally, your last paragraph. It is really ironic that after ignoring and frowning upon so many constructive commentaries about monotype metagame development in so many other threads (especially the oldgens mono) you barely even play, you decide to complain about players who are not posting? Why players should even bother to post if no change is going to be made, especially if it is written by certain specific users? It just does not make any sense to expect maturity after years of grudge you have been holding from certain people. And talk about ego lol. If I had a big one I wouldn't even be here, because it was all for the sake of improving the tier i love playing, even after all the suffering i have gone through this community. It is just plain wrong and bullshit to assume people have big ego when you have been holding back metagame development for years in detriment of certain players who genuinely care and want to play in a better tier. I really would like to believe that I'd have the slightest encouragement to post what I learned and playtested in the past few days, though.
 
hi. i play a lot of poison. this post might be me just rambling but i thought i'd talk about a frog

i think a mon that's been quite threatening to poison imo is this guy right here :kingambit: bisharp was always annoying for poison considering knock off+sucker punch+iron head straight up merc'd most of poison last gen. i personally used to use an itemless amoonguss set just to put it to sleep and then foul play it to death. however several changes in gen 9 severely limit poison's ability to handle bisharp and subsequently kingambit. let's go over them briefly
  1. toxapex losing scald removes a powerful option in combatting kingambit. using chilling water is dangerous in case it's using defiant. if it's using supreme overlord, chilling water isn't any help because afaik pex doesn't outspeed to lower kingambit's attack before it hits. either way, pex is dying to knock off
  2. amoonguss can't run itemless (which was viable to prevent azumarill sweeps) anymore because of all the hazards this gen and poison's singular option when it comes to combatting them
  3. anything faster than kingambit just gets swatted by its sucker punch. no iron moth fire blast's, no glimmora earth power's, no gengar focus blast's
i was figuring out what would be a neat way to prevent the dark MU from being "kill everything and then die to kingambit" when i realised that poison has a part-fighting mon. this exceptional fella over here: :toxicroak:
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch/Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch/Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch

:toxicroak:
toxicroak is pretty good against dark, actually. who knew that the fighting mon would do that. with an sd it can confidently take on dark's bulky threats with either drain punch or close combat. even without an sd, it can act as something to hit dark SE then dip out, only to come in later when something like ting-lu is forced to rest. poison jab's reliable, but one could go with gunk shot for better damage. the final slot goes to either ice punch for the slower dragons, bullet punch for general priority, and sucker punch if you really dislike ghosts.
here are some calcs without accounting for if you managed to get a mortal spin off with glimmora

252+ Atk Life Orb Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 118-140 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock*
(*i don't know exactly how to take into account supreme overlord on the damage calc. would appreciate some help)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 265-315 (51.5 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 166-198 (32.2 - 38.5%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 530-627 (103.1 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 330-393 (64.2 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 473-562 (138.7 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rambling aside, toxicroak has some pretty glaring issues. it's slow as hell; without an sd it doesn't hit as hard neutrally; and its typing is awful defensively besides the dark resist (and water immunity if dry skin). still, in this current meta where dark is strong as hell and poison needs help staying afloat amidst all the terrifying wallbreakers this gen, toxicroak seems up to the challenge

oh also it kills palafin if the dolphin has no zen headbutt
 
Bug is also interesting; it's 5 good 'mons and then one useless one. If it gets better Pokémon released, it could be another mid-tier type.
I already see bug as a solid anti meta low B tier type, I'd pretty consistently been able to play with it in top 25-10 on ladder since meta started and have won a few tours with it as well. Honestly, I see it's team options as having 7 viable pokemon to chose from. So far from using it I'd say bug has a favored matchup vs. the meta with bug being favored against Ghost/Dark/Fairy/Normal while having solid matchups vs. water as well as a fairly neutral bug v fighting, all the while not needing to worry about steel as you have in previous gens. Flying has a few things that suck but even then it's more than beatable and the only really unwinnable match is fire. Though I'll also say Dragon is favored vs. bug right now as well. Vivillon I've always been a fan of and it works great this gen, it's ability to act as a counter measure to Annihilape cannot be understated either in this meta. Lokix is a super fun pickup from the new gen as a threatening offensive pivot and revenge killer.

In terms of Viability, my personal VR looks like this right now.
S: Volcarona
A: Scizor, Forretress, Lokix
B: Vivillon, Slither Wing
C: Heracross

There are other options, some people are coping with the loss of webs but Bug has never really needed it. The options we have now remind me of Gen 6 webless megacross which was a solid build. I suppose there's Venomoth, which could do the same as Vivi with sleep powder + quiver, but it's lack of hurricane and accurate sleep powder makes it far less viable in terms of what it's supposed to be doing. I also haven't experimented with Rabsca yet, but it just feels like such a momentum drain when I look at it that I've not bothered.

I'll also talk about Slither Wing a sec. When Home Transfer comes, this mon is instant A tier for sure. It's a perfect Steel Breaking option, but right now with Steel being in such a sorry state there's just isn't as much of a need for such a set. It's still a solid mon, but it's the part of the team I change sets for the most to adapt and try and figure out a better way to work with it. So far having teams with flame charge, first impression + 3 coverage, scarf, etc. I'll continue to try out different options for it and maybe I change my mind on where I put it, but it's definitely the most awkward fit on the team.

Home Transfer will also help bug's comp a solid amount. Bug is missing a bug/rock type, and Kleavor will be able to put in work. I think a scarf would be it's best choice, allowing it to threaten fast hurricane mons, as well as being able to OHKO HArcanine with Stone Axe. Though depending on how flying cores feel, going for something more along the lines of a band or SD set may prove useful.
 

Kev

Part of the journey is the end
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
First things first lets talk about the order of tiering decision. While it is perfect fine to assume the terestalize mechanic is broken on itself, it is important to note that a great majority of its strongest abusers are within the ban radar list (which include problematic pokemon like Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, Palafin, and the list goes on as many people know). Even after teras ban, those Pokemon are clearly overperforming and ruining a lot of games, something that likely wouldn't have happened if the Pokemon were banned first. I believe most of the community's complaints come from the fact that the metagame could have been better right now if the most broken issues were accounted first, and not if they will or not happen.
This becomes even more apparent as we analyze the tiering decisions from other tiers such as OU tiering decisions, which have shown a greater improvement for their tier, and while Monotype is clearly different than OU, their approach appears to be more effective as it accounts whats breaking the tier the most rather than what's the most broad mechanic to evaluate.
Before I cover the first part, the whole comparison of Monotype to OU is completely irrelevant. You cannot compare how the site's flagship metagame makes decisions versus an isolated tier. OU's decisions not only impact the lower tiers that depend on it, but the site in general. They receive much much greater pressure in trying to preserve stuff like mechanics because the site's imagine and popularity are dependent on them. Especially after Dynamax was banned, there is lot of stress on them not trying to keep the mechanic. I can guarantee you this approach is not just because they want to be "effective" or have a different approach than us; it is prioritizing the site not the tier - or at least and the tier. I haven't touched OU this gen yet, so I can't really say if this approach has been better for them or anything, but regardless on if it is - its pretty irrelevant. The mechanic works differently in their ecosystem because there isn't that creation of very lopsided matchups. The idea of tera isn't broken, some mons are broken with tera is a lot more palatable in OU where it's less likely for multiple mons to gain the ability to steamroll teams. There is of course a lot of other factors that could make it worse there, but this isn't the OU thread so not gonna get into that - the bottom line is comparing to OU makes 0 sense - our situations are not the same.

As for the first apart, yes some of the most notorious tera abusers are Pokemon that are likely problematic without it - but there is still countless mons that can abuse the mechanic in this currently very small dex. From games I've played and watch, plenty of setup mons, mons with priority moves, naturally fast mons all can abuse the mechanic. I think people really underestimate the destructive power that comes from stacking adaptability on top of already good abilities. Let's just think of water for example. Let's say Palafin gets banned, but that doesn't prevent Tera Barrakewda from being nigh irresistible menace on most types, and if not that then there's something like Azumarill which gets to stack Huge Power + Adaptability, with rain potentially up..there isn't much that can stop that. There's also just a list of other offensive threats that can just the tera if necessary - the possibility that any mon can tera makes it suffocating because you need to constantly be wary of it as one can just tera to blow past a supposed check and allow the other to clean with tera. On Flying, there's setup mons like Gyarados and Dragonite that can DD and run through teams with Tera Blast in cohesion with their other coverage, or Hawlucha that can pair Unburden + Adaptability. I've also seen other priority abusers like Scizor, Kingambit, etc.. be threats because with chip + set up Adaptability + Technical, Overlord, ... can be hard to counter. This isn't to forget other mons like Dragapult, Baxcalibur, etc.. that can become very oppressive after tera. The comparison to weather in low tiers comes into play here because we get to the issue where, if we just focus on removing abusers, new ones will come into play. If there is even a slight chance that isn't the case, we can always revisit it. I personally, really want to eventually revisit it at least, but ultimately it just made more sense to get rid of the mechanic first. It is just more sense to remove the common enemy to the metagame's health to see how bad other things really are.

Secondly, the "new mechanic" comparison. Terestalize is not anywhere as broken as Dynamax. It is unfair to give it the same treatment, regardless of what the decisions of keeping it or banning it in the past have been taken. While I do agree teras are also uncompetitive in the sense they last permanently after you activate it ( + giving it a 2x STAB boost to the tera type), I don't see it being more broken than Pokemon that can reach 600 speed without being choice locked and still punch holes in so many different builds. For instance, Flutter Mane singlehandedly flips so many matchups on its favor, almost completely invalidating types like Fighting, Dragon, Electric and Psychic. Also, because terestalize is a more accessible mechanic to every given type, it also would reduce the centralization of viable types we would have right this second, even though it affects types in a different way. If you are not using Ghost, Dark, Fairy or Water you are essentially handicapping yourself, almost as if they were the only playable types. Teams and type variety could have been a lot bigger (and therefore, the eagerness for testing and developing the tier) if the Pokemon were addressed first, and thus we would have a better meta right now for tours.
Tera might not be as bad as Dynamax, but no one is trying to say it is either. It received the same treatment because it shares some of its unhealthy traits. It is a mechanic that makes matchups more lopsided in this metagame where there is a scarcity in options and answers to threats. The argument that it is accessible to every type is a really bad one, the same one was used during Dynamax. Tera is not gonna make bad types much better if the good types just get the power to oppress them even more through it. That list of "viable types" is definitely missing some solid ones I've seen, and that is bound to change as bans roll in later. Nonetheless, with or without those bans tera isn't going to help bad types much if the good types can abuse it - and generally have much better tools to do so. As for Flutter Mane being mentioned....its like you didn't even bother reading the post. We are well aware of how strong that Pokemon is, but the priority was banning the mechanic because it is a collectively problem and impacts the meta as a whole.

This is certainly a lot better than having the same 4~5 Pokemon steamrolling every game, and forcing players to use the same 4-5 types in order not to handicap themselves. The weather comparison shouldn't come to this case because none of them is inherently broken without the weather, whereas most terestalize abusers are broken regardless of the mechanic being or not around.
Already replied to why this is wrong in above responses.

Saying "no tournament is going to get ruined" is also not really true and a understatement given the "Welcome to Scarlet/Violet Tournament" is about to begin soon, and certainly the order of the tiering decisions is going to affect the outcome of the competition. Regardless of whether you care that much about that tournament, there are players who want to give their best and win. I know there will be players testing their techs and figuring out a lot of new stuff that hasn't been showed up yet, but the real point is that it is going to be affected. Just because it is a field-test of sorts does not mean the health of the competitive environment is to be overlooked right this second.
You've been around much longer than I have so surely you should know that welcome tours have the whole point of being testing grounds for tiering decisions....the goal is never to have a healthy meta before the tour but to use the tour to help mold the healthy meta. If you look back at SM, the round 1 of the intro tour was posted the day after the first ban wave. Things like Darkrai, Genesect, Mega Metagross, Kartana, Hoopa-Unbound, Baton Pass, etc... were all allowed throughout different weeks of the tournament, and every week the tier would change drastically to respond to the new bans of the week....So I really have 0 idea what you are trying to say here..the only tournaments we need to be concerned with are the circuit and big team tours that make up our competitive format. The Welcome tour is and always has been a sandbox for tier development.

Finally, your last paragraph. It is really ironic that after ignoring and frowning upon so many constructive commentaries about monotype metagame development in so many other threads (especially the oldgens mono) you barely even play, you decide to complain about players who are not posting? Why players should even bother to post if no change is going to be made, especially if it is written by certain specific users?
It just does not make any sense to expect maturity after years of grudge you have been holding from certain people. And talk about ego lol. If I had a big one I wouldn't even be here, because it was all for the sake of improving the tier i love playing, even after all the suffering i have gone through this community. It is just plain wrong and bullshit to assume people have big ego when you have been holding back metagame development for years in detriment of certain players who genuinely care and want to play in a better tier. I really would like to believe that I'd have the slightest encouragement to post what I learned and playtested in the past few days, though.
This is really not the thread for this, but I'll answer this once because it was put out there in what was a post that mostly aimed to be constructive. However, just a heads up that any comments that aren't about the SV metagame will be removed.

First, the oldgens mono thread. I'm not sure what exactly we are "ignoring". The initial discussion in the ORAS thread lead to changes being implemented. After that, the posts regarding Mega Gallade / Mega Gyarados were acknowledged but the decision was taken not to ban prior to MPL. I then specifically told people that were for banning Mega Gallade and have the competitive experience (Chaitanya, Jolly Togekiss) to make posts after MPL if they still felt that way, as the posts by top players prior to the tournament were very lackluster. This was almost 5 months ago, and they did not post yet. I am not responsible for running around after people that want meta change to tell them to convince me to do so, it is up to them to do it. We did read all the posts, but none of them were deemed enough.

Yes, I don't play as much anymore. I'm sorry I graduated and now have job and other responsibilities and interests in my life that prevent me from having the same activity I used to. I can't play every tournament or ladder for hours anymore, but that doesn't mean I am not paying attention, especially in this new generation where I'm actively playing. Anyone that was active in the spoilers channel in the Monotype discord can also attest that I've been engaged in knowing what is coming to the metagame, and talking about what might need to be banned for a while now. Also, it takes much more than just activity, motivation and love for the tier to be a leader - I'm sure anyone that has been a leader on this site before would agree.

It is just plain wrong and bullshit to assume people have big ego when you have been holding back metagame development for years in detriment of certain players who genuinely care and want to play in a better tier. I really would like to believe that I'd have the slightest encouragement to post what I learned and playtested in the past few days, though.
I haven't even been TL for 2 years so blaming for multiple years is a bit much...I'd also like to remind you that a council is made up of several people...I'd also like to point out that before I got TL, every suspect or qb was being dryly posted without warning - the only reason the luck items had a thread discussion prior to their ban is that I insisted we do not vote before giving the community at least a week or two to give their opinions on it. The same goes for other discussions that were had. Similarly, the old gens thread was not a luxury that the community had under previous leadership; old gens stayed as they are. It wasn't until I got TL and asked about if we were allowed to modify BW and ORAS and started that initiative. Now, I'm not trying to paint myself as some great leader since I definitely have flaws, my lack of time especially. But I refuse to be insulted for not caring about the opinions of the community when I'm one of the few that genuinely pushed to increase community input in tiering decisions.

Your fear to post is not a reflection of how the tier is being handled but of your inability to move past personal vendettas. You won't be able to make any progress if you constantly depend on that idea that others care so much about you that they'll prevent you no matter what. Literally no one in council cares enough of specific people to vote against their opinion to spite them..if you are good and make good points they'll be taken into consideration; there's no concept of bias when it comes to the health of the tier. The moral of the story is if you don't share your opinion, you can't be mad it wasn't taken into consideration.

Anyways, as said before, only posts / comments related to the metagame will be accepted now. Anything that falls outside of that will be deleted / edited. If you have other comments regarding the out of topic stuff in this thread then feel free to DM me on discord, but please just leave this kind of pettiness out of tiering discussions.
 

ken

gm
is a Tournament Directoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Monotype Leader
My list:
- Booster Energy
Next low-hanging fruit, let's go!

Pokemon-Scarlet-and-Violet-Booster-Energy.png

Booster Energy​

At present, there are 14 Paradox Pokémon who are able to utilize Booster Energy, 7 future and 7 past.

:iron treads: :iron moth: :iron hands: :iron jugulis: :iron thorns: :iron bundle: :iron valiant: :great tusk: :brute bonnet: :sandy shocks: :scream tail: :flutter mane: :slither wing: :roaring moon:
From these Pokémon, I'll split into types which access have use of Booster Energy and how many potential options they may utilize (not remarking on viability):

Bug: 1 (:Slither Wing:)
Dark: 3 (:Iron Jugulis:, :Brute Bonnet:, :Roaring Moon:)
Dragon: 1 (:Roaring Moon:)
Electric: 3 (:Iron Hands:, :Iron Thorns:, :Sandy Shocks:)
Fairy: 3 (:Iron Valiant:, :Scream Tail:, :Flutter Mane:)
Fighting: 4 (:Iron Hands:, :Iron Valiant:, :Great Tusk:, :Slither Wing:)
Fire: 1 (:Iron Moth:)
Flying: 1 (:Iron Jugulis:)
Ghost: 1 (:Flutter Mane:)
Grass: 1 (:Brute Bonnet:)
Ground: 3 (:Iron Treads:, :Great Tusk:, :Sandy Shocks:)
Ice: 1 (:Iron Bundle:)
Normal: 0
Poison: 1 (:Iron Moth:)
Psychic: 1 (:Scream Tail:)
Rock: 1 (:Iron Thorns:)
Steel: 1 (:Iron Treads:)
Water: 1 (:Iron Bundle:)

Next, I'll walk through 10 of the 14 Paradoxes individually, utilizing the 1.3x buff in non-Speed stats & 1.5x buff in Speed to compare to other threats both this generation and in general. It's also important to keep in mind that boosts from Booster Energy and stat adjusting moves is multiplicative, not additive, as well as these boosts are unaffected by Haze. Further, while they may be single-use, they are more than capable of turning the tide of the battle by how strong some of the non-speed buffs allow Pokémon to become. Last, I'll admit I'm using some natures that may not show up commonly in competitive play and theorycrafting, but purely to show how these stats compare to other potential threats or prior bans.

:Iron Treads: Iron Treads is an excellent addition to both Ground and Steel teams this generation, gaining extra pivotal usage from the inclusion of Volt Switch in its movepool. Add in Rapid Spin/Knock Off, Iron Head, and Earthquake, some have called this a budget Excadrill (I'm assuming due to the lower base Atk - 112 vs. 135). However, Iron Treads doesn't just need to be a pivot utilizing a Choice Scarf on either type, as with access to Booster Energy, it can raise either its Attack, Defense, or Speed through manipulation of its EV's.
If you want to raise its attack, you can easily go with a 252+ Atk/252 Spe spread, giving you an attack stat of 355 prior to receiving the Booster Energy buff. With the buff, your attack jumps to 461, which just passes an adamant base-160 Atk Pokémon (like Palafin-Hero), who hits 460. This puts you in the realm Tyranitar-Mega (adamant 469), Calyrex-Ice or Gallade-Mega (adamant 471), and Kyurem-Black (adamant 482), all while still being the same speed as base-92 Spe mons, such as Krookodile and Garchomp-Mega (jolly 311).
In order to boost your attack when Jolly, you have to manipulate your EV's a little. 252 Atk/180+ Spe/76 elsewhere allows you to boost your attack, while still maintaining the same speed as base 97's, like Urshifu (jolly 322). At this point, your boosted attack value is 419, which is as high as a a jolly Palafin-Hero, which again, is a base 160 attack stat.
In order to boost your speed when Jolly, you can run simple 252+ Spe and surpass any other stat Iron Treads has. With the 1.5x boost, you're up to 513.
This is possible, but probably the least likely to be utilized for Iron Treads in the current meta. A 252+ defense invested Iron Treads boosts to 483, which is higher than a fully defensive Toxapex, achieving only 443.

:Iron Moth: The futuristic counterpart to Volcarona, Iron Moth has an even higher base SpA stat (+5), base SpD stat (+5), and base Spe stat (+10), but loses access to Quiver Dance. That alone does not necessarily count it out from becoming a sweeper, as it has access to Agility and with Booster Energy, it can clean late game given the opportunity (or an entire opponent's team, given correct coverage). Besides its dual STABs (Fiery Dance/Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat and Sludge Wave), it has excellent options for coverage in Hurricane/Air Slash, Psychic, Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, Flash Cannon, Discharge, and Dazzling Gleam, as well as Flame Charge, should you choose not to utilize Agility, and Morning Sun to allow for slight longevity, conditionally. It's likely Iron Moth will have severe 4MSS on both types. For utilization of Booster Energy, it's easiest to take advantage of the SpA buff, but you can manipulate EV's to also boost speed.
Boosting a speed+ but 252-invested SpA Iron Moth increases its SpA from 379 to 492, higher than a modest Kyurem-White (482), nearly matching a modest Alakazam-Mega (493), and falling below modest Kyogre-Primal (504), all while matching other base-110 speed mons, still with the option to run an Agility set.
Sacrificing some speed leaves Iron Moth sitting between base 95 and 96 speed mons, hitting a comfortable 319 when fully EV-invested. However, this gives a major boost to SpA, reaching 416 prior to the Booster Energy buff. With the buff, Iron Moth reaches a whopping 540 SpA, higher than a modest Mewtwo-Mega-Y (535).
With access to Flame Charge and Agility, it's unlikely this set sees much use, but it's possible, so I'll include it. EV's required to do this are a Timid set with 132 or less in SpA, 252 in speed, and 124 left over to utilize elsewhere. With the 1.5x boost, you reach a speed stat of 525.

:Iron Hands: Per my previous post, one of the only potentially reliable counters to Flutter Mane at present, Iron Hands is a fat wall that you can utilize physically, specially, or with a base 140 Atk stat, run a bulky physically-biased attacker. Survivability in Drain Punch paired with fat defenses, Body Press, Heavy Slam, Whirlwind, BoltBeam Punches, and Volt Switch give quite a bit of variety in use of Iron Hands, though I admit Booster Energy may be less useful on Iron Hands. That being said, it can still utilize Booster Energy for both Attack and Defense, so I will cover them both.
416 attack unboosted, reaching 540 after a boost. This is higher than every non-boosted mon in the game, with the closest being an adamant Mewtwo-Mega-X (526, base 190).
252+-invested defense leads to a stat value of 346, which post-Booster Energy ends up at 449, falling short of bold Deoxys-Defense (460), but above bold Toxapex (443).

:Iron Bundle: With a base 124 SpA and 136 Spe, Iron Bundle is capable of seriously putting in some work. Access to strong Water and Ice STAB, including Freeze-Dry, Agility, Flip Turn, Taunt, Encore, and Aurora Veil (if Ice really feels itself in a pinch, I guess), Iron Bundle is capable of running different moves outside its fairly common Choice Specs or Booster Energy sets, though they may be less optimal in a more generalized sense. Iron Bundle can utilize both SpA and Spe-boosting Booster Energy.
Starting out at a nice 381 SpA stat, it reaches 495 post-boost, still with access to Iron Bundle running an agility set and jumping from 371 (sitting between Spe+ base 118 and 120) to a nice 742, tying adamant Barraskewda in Rain. This sits Iron Bundle between modest Alakazam-Mega (493) and modest Kyogre-Primal (504).
At 136 base speed, Iron Bundle is capable of reaching a speed stat of 408 prior to its 1.5x boost, outspeeding nearly the entire metagame with few exceptions to begin with. After its boost, it reaches 612, having even fewer potential checks if they had not previously set themselves up.


:Iron Valiant: A seeming combination of Gallade and Gardevoir, this futuristic Fairy/Fighting Paradox is exceptional and can utilize Booster Energy with ease. Depending which type its being used on, it can run a SD+3 (Fairy) or CM+3 (Fighting) in order to utilize the buff, if it's not running another item instead. Interesting moves include Knock Off, Shadow Sneak, Spirit Break, Drain Punch, Close Combat, elemental punches, Poison Jab, Zen Headbutt, X-Scizzor, Aura Sphere, Moonblast, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Psychic/Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Taunt, Agility, and even Destiny Bond (which can be very unexpected, especially for the +Spe buff). This may lead to 4MSS depending on items run. The 3 main stats it can buff are Attack, Special Attack, and Speed, each of which I will cover, and some in multiple instances due to how EV's can be manipulated depending on the nature chosen. I won't cover mixed Iron Valiant here.
Reaching a 364 speed stat prior to boosting, after applying the Booster Energy, Iron Valiant reaches a nice 546.
To boost attack while Jolly, we have to manipulate EV's. 232+ in speed, 252 in attack, and 24 left over allows for Booster Energy to boost attack with a jolly Iron Valiant. 359 attack before the boost and 466 after, surpassing a jolly Palafin-Hero (460, base 160 attack), and falling below Tyranitar-Mega (adamant 469).
With a base Atk stat of 130, Iron Valiant reaches 394 prior to the 1.3x boost. After using the item, its attack stat climbs to 512, prior to even clicking Swords Dance, while still retaining its 331 speed stat, matching base 101 speed mons like Landorus-I. With this attack stat, it's higher than an adamant Kartana (base 181, 507) and right below adamant Heracross-Mega (base 185, 515), while outspeeding both.
Base 120 SpA needs a little more tweaks to EV's to be boosted when Timid, meaning you can run a max of 160 EV's in speed, freeing up 96 EV's to use elsewhere beyond the 252 invested in SpA. This boosts your SpA from 339 to 440, which may pale in comparison to other examples. However, this puts it above timid Kyurem-White (base 170, reaches 439) and below timid Alakazam-Mega (base 175, reaches 449), and non-SpA boosted natures Kyogre-Primal and Deoxys-Attack (base 180, reaches 459).
Starting out at 372, after the boost the stat climbs to 483. This is higher than the aforementioned non-SpA boosted Kyogre-Primal and Deoxys-Attack (both base 180, reaching 459), higher than modest Kyurem-White (base 170, reaches 482), and just below timid +SpA Booster Energy Iron Moth (base 140, reaches 492) and modest Alakazam-Mega (base 175, reaches 493).

:Great Tusk: Great Tusk is a nice addition for both Ground and Fighting teams, as its bulk and paired high attack allow for a decently bulky breaker. Base 115 HP and 131 Atk/Def allows for some survivability and can be paired well with Choice Band or Bulk Up/Leftovers sets. Access to Rapid Spin allows for a speed increase if not choiced, allowing for further utility. Other notable moves include Body Press, Close Combat, Earthquake, Headlong Rush (its signature, a ground type Close Combat equivalent), Ice Spinner, Iron Head, Knock Off, Play Rough, Stone Edge, and Zen Headbutt. Great Tusk can make use of Booster Energy, but it's likely better to use other items, similar to Iron Hands. However, it can utilize Booster Energy for both Attack and Defense, as well as a bulky Speed variant.
While this variant may seem like an odd choice at first glance, as you can only invest 4 EV's into Atk, the rest would likely go into HP and Spe, which needs 252+ to surpass the attack stat. This likely fits with a fast and slightly bulky Bulk Up set, but I'd assume this is slightly more niche use. The stat when boosted increases from 300 to 450.
Boosting from 361 to 469 allows for Great Tusk to surpass attack-boosted Iron Treads (461), adamant Palafin-Hero (base 160, 460), tie adamant Tyranitar-Mega (base 164, 469), and fall short from adamant Calyrex-Ice or Gallade-Mega (base 165, 471).
Reaching a whopping 516 attack stat from a non-boosted 397, this number puts it above an adamant Kartana (base 181, 507) and adamant Heracross-Mega (base 185, 515), but below adamant Mewtwo-Mega-X (base 190, 526) and adamant, attack-boosted Iron Hands (base 140, reaches 540).
Likely more suited for performing as a physical wall with Bulk Up and/or Body Press, a bold defense-boosted Great Tusk moves from a non-boosted 397 to 516 stat, above a def-boosted nature Avalugg (base 184, 513), only paling in comparison to Shuckle, Aggron-Mega, Steelix and its mega, Stakataka, and Regirock, all base 200 or higher.

:Sandy Shocks:A prehistoric Magneton equivalent, Sandy Shocks has decent coverage and is one of Ground's only viable special attackers this generation. It can run either Choice Scarf or Specs, but access to Booster Energy may help with potential late game cleaning. Notable moves include Discharge, Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Power Gem, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Volt Switch, Gravity, and Screens. It also has access to Iron Defense and Body Press, but I question its survivability in the current metagame with use of that set. It can utilize Booster Energy to boost both its special attack and speed, though I would again likely recommend other items here.
Boosting from 341 to 443 places Sandy Shocks in the realm of timid Kyurem-White (base 170, 439), timid SpA-boosted Iron Valiant (440), and timid Alakazam-Mega (base 175, reaches 449).
Some EV manipulation required, you can run 208 EV's in SpA (reaching 330), 252+ in speed, leaving 48 elsewhere in order to boost speed from 331 to 496.
Without speed investment, you end up relatively middle of the road for the current meta, hitting 301. However, your special attack boost increases from 375 to 487, higher than modest Kyurem-White (base 170, reaches 482), modest SpA-boosted Iron Valiant (base 120, 483), and just below timid +SpA Booster Energy Iron Moth (base 140, reaches 492) and modest Alakazam-Mega (base 175, reaches 493).

:Flutter Mane: As previously mentioned (calcs included), Flutter Mane is a beast of a Pokémon that can run a variety of sets with coverage for most any threat that may be used to check it. Paired with base 135 SpA and Spe stats, it's a demon. That being said, it can still run Booster Energy for incredible damage output in combination with nearly unparalleled speed this generation, utilizing SpA or Spe boosts.
Naturally only being slower to Jolly Barraskewda, Timid Iron Bundle, Spe+ Dragapult, and Spe+ Electrode, Flutter Mane is a natural threat. Starting out at 405 and increasing to 607, boosting with Booster Energy allows for easy late game sweeping in combination with Calm Mind, only really being outsped by Barraskewda in Rain or other mons who may have clicked agility prior to Flutter Mane coming to the field.
Likely the least useful set (252 SpA, 116+ Spe, 140 elsewhere, reaching 368 speed), due to having a higher speed when modest and still fully invested in speed, you can boost SpA from 369 to 479, putting you above a modest Calyrex-Shadow (base 165, 471) and modest Necrozma-Ultra (base 167, fully invested reaches 476) or below modest Kyurem-White (base 170, reaches 482) and modest SpA-boosted Iron Valiant (base 120, 483).
Boosting to 526 from 405 SpA allows for major damage output when paired with the speed Flutter Mane possesses. This puts you above modest Deoxys-Attack and Kyogre-Primal (base 180, 504) and only below modest Mewtwo-Mega-Y (base 194, 535) and modest Iron Moth with a SpA-boost (base 140, 540).

:Slither Wing: The alleged prehistoric version of Volcarona, Slither Wing seems to be functioning as one of bug's saving graces for the pre-Home meta. With a base 135 Atk stat and decent bulk, it can put in some work given the right circumstances. Scarf and Life Orb sets can help take care of many threats to Bug with its coverage. Notable moves include Acrobatics, Close Combat, Earthquake, First Impression, Flame Charge, Flare Blitz, Leech Life/Lunge, U-turn, and Zen Headbutt. Slither Wing can mainly only take advantage of Attack boosts with Booster Energy.
Boosting from 369 to 479, Slither Wing gets some massive damage output capabilities with ease. Pair that with a Flame Charge (going from 287 to 430 speed, surpassing any non-boosted or scarved options), and it can quickly take advantage in a matchup it has the coverage for. With a stat of 479, Slither Wing falls short of an adamant Kyurem-Black (base 170, 482) but above that of a timid attack boosted Greak Tusk (base 131, 469) or timid Iron Valiant (base 130, 466).
Boosting from 405 to 526, this puts Slither Wing in a tie with an adamant Mewtwo-Mega-X (base 190, 526). Despite still being slow, it can put in decent damage utilizing First Impression or coverage moves, guaranteed to 2HKO Toxapex with Earthquake, seen below (calc includes stat boost):
252+ Atk Slither Wing Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 170-202 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

:Roaring Moon: Roaring Moon has been somewhat divisive in the community so far, as there have been people on both sides of the debate regarding whether it's broken with Booster Energy or broken in general. Arguably one of the better abusers of Booster Energy at present (with base 139 attack), it's hard to suggest running anything else with the movepool Roaring Moon has access to. Notable moves include Acrobatics, Crunch, Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Fire Fang, Iron head, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Throat Chop, U-turn, X-Scizzor, Zen Headbutt, Dragon Rush, and Scale Shot. Relatively bulky with base 105 HP and decent defenses, without a Fairy-type move it's hard to OHKO (even adamant Breloom requires a band to OHKO with Mach Punch). Roaring Moon can utilize both Attack and Speed boosts from Booster Energy.
In order to achieve a speed boost, you have to decrease your attack EV's with Roaring Moon, running at most 220 EV's in attack, 252+ in speed, and 36 elsewhere. This allows you to boost from 370 to 555, but is also likely the worst of the three options when it has access to Scale Shot.
Boosting from 377 to 490, this puts Roaring Moon in the company of adamant Kyurem-Black (base 170, 482) and adamant base 180's who reach 504, namely Groudon-Primal, Deoxys-Attack, and Rayquaza-Mega, if they were actually run.
This is the real kicker: you boost from 414 to 538, surpassing an adamant Mewtwo-Mega-X (base 190, 526) and only sitting behind an adamant, attack-boosted Iron Hands (base 140, 540). Paired with its moveset, still outspeeding any less than base 104 speed Pokémon, with access to Scale Shot to further its potential at sweeping almost anything in front of it with the right support.

I'm not really advocating for any of these Pokémon to receive tiering action, as I believe a majority of those I've written about would be fine outside the metagame in which Booster Energy exists. I do, however, believe Booster Energy is unhealthy, despite it being single-use. Giving Pokémon with already near-Uber level stats a 1.3x boost in non-speed stats allows for instant sweeping potential (and stat modifications to put them above Ubers at +0) and despite the predictability of what types of boosts they may be running or better items existing for some of the options I've written about, it's painstakingly non-competitive to give pokemon an item that turns every move into a Z-move, so long as they don't switch or faint, without actually using any setup move. It frees a slot for some of these Pokémon to run extra coverage rather than something to setup in the first place.

If Protosynthesis and Quark Drive wish to be utilized, let the terrain or weather be set, something that requires more than just an item slot in order to give a free Life Orb boost with no recoil.


S/O Azick, TheWyvernKing for some testing of mechanics, ideas, and edits, roxie for some ideas.

If there's any mistakes or missed calcs, dm me and I'll fix 'em.
 
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As ken talked about Booster Energy and Flutter Mane i wanted to share my thoughts on those and talk about Palafin.

:Palafin:
Base Stats :
StatHPAtkDefSpASpDSpe
:palafin:10070725362100
:palafin-Hero:1001609710687100

This mon can really easily transform to the Hero form and receive amazing stats.
Its 100 / 97 / 87 bulk is crazy for an offensive mon and it is able to take some supereffective hits or +1 boosted STABs
Here some examples, I took Barraskewda and adjusted its stats:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 222-262 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Flutter Mane Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 248-294 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 265-313 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I reduced Palafin's Defense as Sword of Ruin doesn't work on the calculator yet
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 228-270 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As we can see, it can take hits from some of the most offensive mons in the tier and it is really hard to revenge kill, and in combination with its Bulk Up set this can be even worse.
This mon has infact multiple set, with the most popular being Bulk Up right now. It can also Run Band or Scarf, but those are less used altho it doesn't make them bad.
With Band / Scarf and potentially the Rain, this mon can become unstoppable by having either a 60bp STAB Priority increased by the Band, the rain and its 160 base Attack or just a stronger STAB such as Liquidation / Wave Crash and a good speed tier.

:choice-band: This item in combination with Rain can allow Palafin-Hero to clean up team very very easily.
Faster threats that try to revenge kill him get just destroyed by Jet Punch, for example Gengar taking 180% or Flutter Mane taking 200% and almost every other mon that doesn't resist Water gets basically anihilated, with a few mons that are able to tank an hit but can't answer back at all.

Adamant Calcs, No rain:
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 306-360 (121.9 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 285-336 (109.1 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 207-244 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Adamant Calcs, with Rain:
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant in Rain: 310-366 (107.2 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao in Rain: 340-402 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kilowattrel in Rain: 427-504 (151.9 - 179.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 179-211 (56.4 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Those calcs should be enough to show how hard it can be to simply revenge kill or offensively check this mon, with only a few mons being able to actually do it:
Dragapult, Iron Bundle, Roaring Moon.
We also have to notice that Iron Bundle has to be Specs to OHKO, otherwise it gets 2HKO'd and deals something such as 66-79% and other mons that can resist Jet Punch such as Noivern or Cyclizar can't do much either in terms of damage, while getting 2HKO'd.
We also can note that it can run Flip Turn to pivot by doing crazy damage. It can eventually choose to run Scarf to hit faster threats and eventually act as a faster pivot.

One of the worse things is that Palafin can just run BU to easily get the same damage output without being Choice-locked and with having the option to use Drain Punch as form of recovery, or to use Liquidation/Wave Crash to deal more damage against walls such as Corviknight. With the access to Taunt it also makes impossible to mons such as Quagsire, Gastrodon, Dondozo or Toxapex to really check it, as it blocks strange sets such as Curse Gastro, status moves such as Toxic and Yawn or recovery.

TLDR
It is really hard to revenge kill Palafin as priority Jet Punch OHKO's any 1x faster threat and 2HKO's resistant mons while being almost impossible to get OHKO'd. It is also hard to check it defensively as BU + Taunt just destroys mons such as Quagsire, Toxapex, Dondozo. Rain and Hazard support are also common on Water teams, so I think this mon is definetely banworthy.
 
Glad to hear that the council is finishing off this week by offering us parched mono players out in the trenches of the unforgiving ladder a few lil bans as a treat.
Here's what my Week 1 Type VR tierlist looks like right now:
my-image (5).png

What I've heard is Flutter/Houndstone/Palafin gone and Booster still in, I'd rather have Booster gone and Flutter suspected to stay if we're being real. I've come to the opinion that without Booster, Flutter isn't as cracked as some other mons floating around like Annihilape.

Anyhow, if it's decided that Booster Energy isn't going, then immediately Roaring Moon and potentially Iron Valiant need to be suspected. Not to mention how impossible it can make facing Iron Bundle with Ground. The entire discourse in this room the past few days was on how they would be fine in the meta IF Booster Energy goes. Keeping Booster Energy in makes some Paradox Mons far more difficult to deal with, with Roaring Moon being a shining example. Really we should be demanding 1 or the other I think, with Booster being what makes them difficult to deal with. It seems really short sighted to me to not ban Booster. We would also need to resuspect Flutter Mane back in following such a ban. It may not be healthy, it may be, but should test regardless.

Anyway right now I'm left wondering if there's anything else being discussed. From what it sounds like so far, dark may not have any losses while Booster still is in. 1 of the mons Booster Energy was most greatly abused by was Roaring Moon, there also needs to be suspects on at least Chien Pao and Chi Yu. I can understand not quickbanning, but they for sure need a suspect. I believe that these 2 mons are part of what keep lower tier types from being able to take a more active role in the meta.

We can for sure expect a rise of dragon monos, and that's probably when we can tell more clearly on if Cyclizar is an issue or not with it's Shed Tail support for Dragon.
 
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sasha

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3.5 :Pawmot:: Ban revival blessing
This isn't even coded in Showdown yet. Don't see the point of bringing it up. Even then Pawmot imo has a much better niche just running 4atks to break through teams, but I digress.

I'd like to see a meta without Booster Energy before action on the Paradox mons happen, I think booster energy enables the broken aspect of these mons by 100x. The powercreep this gen is absurd and its I feel its hard to accurately judge mons by themselves if we still have other elements around that push them past the boundary of balanced, and I think looking at Booster Energy>>Paradox Mons for now. It's the beginning of the gen and I don't see the need to usher in bans left and right like some people are calling for. We don't even have a team tournament coming up anytime soon so I don't get what the rush is. Chien-Pao seems a little overbearing however, not too huge on any action on Chi-Yu as I've seen some people mention, I think its a fine mon but stuff like Roaring Moon and Flutter Mane imo would be a lot less problematic without Booster Energy, and we could at least test the waters with them without it and see if further bans are needed. Didn't wanna ramble since Ken and others outlined everything pretty well but wanted to get my two cents in.

This is certainly a lot better than having the same 4~5 Pokemon steamrolling every game, and forcing players to use the same 4-5 types in order not to handicap themselves.
I don't want to sound ignorant, but every competitive game will have a meta. League, Overwatch, and other things all play around a constant evolving meta. If you stray away from it then yes, you will be punished. If you want to ladder for fun and use whatever you wanna use then go for it, but if you go in a competitive game and go with things that aren't good in the meta then it is certainly a handicap. I understand that other competitive games such as the ones I mentioned are very different than mons but I still feel that the concept is there. It's not any different in SS when you could spam the same types and win games consistently. SS is a balanced meta imo but you could win tours spamming Fly Steel Ice Elec and be fine. Not sure why its an issue barely a week into a generation that will stick around for multiple years.
 
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