Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

Yeah, there should absolutely be a tier where you can use bad Ubers and I’ve held that opinion for ages too. The problem with that right now is, with all the old Legendaries gone at the moment, the difference between OU and Ubers is only a handful of Pokémon. You could literally fit all of the existing Ubers on a single team. But once the old Legendaries come back and the tier gets bigger, I think having a discussion about UUbers would be prudent. I honestly don’t know why tier leaders keep rejecting the idea when there’s clearly a very big chunk of the community that wants it.

Absolutely agreed. Earlier in this thread there were multiple instances (if fairly angry and rudely said on both sides of posts) about being told to go play Ubers to use the broken toys that probably won't actually see use in Ubers. OUBL is exactly what both these sets of players are looking for, where OU is kept healthy but people in the anti-ban camps can potentially use what they want to use in a tier that you know, actually supports what they wanted to play with to begin with??

 

[CarrierPidove]

If it makes you feel better, Zamazenta probably has a non-Zero chance of being OU safe with the nerf hammer they gave it to mirror Zacian, at this rate.

As far as the actual meta, I'm curious about what people can manage with the Starters now. Meowscarada appreciates one less demanding mon for Physically Bulky Defenses, Quaquaval enjoys his biggest (Physical) Water Competition being gone (as well as a reduction in their checks), and Skeledirge as an Unaware user likes the biggest Set-up mon not having SE STAB off 160 Base ATK.

Honestly I think the starters all are at least viable or at least have a decent niche,
Banded meowscarado can clean house and can Trick as well
Banded QuaQuaval cleans like nobodies business
and Skeliderge is a great unaware mon that can also wall break pretty decently with torch song

 

[KamenOH]

If I did use a tera-normal dragonite, would it be worth using LO since by the time I can pop off any attacks im already below max health? Or should I go boots in case my hazard remover didnt work as well as i wanted it to?
Either way, I think ESpeed, Ice Spinner, and EQ are the best 3 attacking moves since e speed hits hard as fuck, ice spinner will take care of the main threat in great tusk, and eq deals well with any steel or ghost tera Pokemon that might want to stop the espeeds

 

[viol and bass]

Chi-yu feels really overpowered to me right now. I'm running a team with 2 solid checks to it that can tank a couple Specs Overheats, but because they don't have reliable recovery they just get worn down over time and I still lose to it sometimes. The stuff that does have reliable recovery probably can't tank Specs Overheats. It feels like the only good counterplay is hazards + offensive pressure, but it puts so much pressure on fatter teams that I feel like it comes close to invalidating them or at the very least forcing extremely specific builds.

 

[topshotta]

"This broken mon should not have been banned because more powerful mons might be banned in the future and then I might not like the meta anymore"
"Broken threats shouldn't be banned because recovery moves have less PP"
"Just use HO bro lmao"
What a great post, Council should reverse their decision and unban Bundle

Bundle is not even some unstoppable broken force that just wins. Choice bundles are bad because locking into a bad move gives u free setup. Boots bundle just mitigates its ability and at that point its pretty easy to deal with if u playing offense. If u play a fat team and have no way to punish bundle then thats a team building diff

 

[Endrism]

Imma just jump in with what I think of the current meta.


All 3 of these needed to go absolutely. They were just too good to be left alone. Maybe down the line when the unreleased legendaries come back, then we can talk about a re-test and unban, but in the current state of the metagame, they were too good.


I'm still very torn on whether the problem is Shed Tail or Cyclizar. With Sitrus Berry Regenerator Cyclizar, you can perform Shed Tail like 6 times over the course of one game, and it opens up some really muddy waters. However Orthworm can only do it twice, and is at risk of getting hit and only being able to do it once if at all.


While this thing can be a pain, I don't think its too much for the current meta. Although this thing hits like a steam train, it also just isn't fast enough. 84 speed just isn't enough for its defensive spread and can be overwhelmed pretty easily. It also struggles to break through prime SpDef walls like Clodsire and Blissey. Pex can also wall it in specific scenarios. On top of that, while Make It Rain is a fantastic move, after one use nerfs Gholdengo's Special Attack, and can open other sweepers to come in and set up. For now I think its a solid A tier threat, but as the legendaries return later on it will probably drop to UUBL or UU imo.


Oh dear lord. Mega Weavile and Ultra Nemo are absolute monsters, especially with Iron Bundle and Palafin gone. Those abilities are what pushes them over the edge for me, and they are just so overwhelmingly strong. God forbid Chi-Yu gets in while the sun is out. Yes I've heard the arguments that they can both be Mach Punched into next week, but that doesn't change the fact that these 2 can OHKO like 70% of the meta. Chi-Yu's 100 Speed is the only thing really holding it back, but Chien-Pao has no such problem. Definitely needs to be watched closely, but you never know, people might find some good counterplay for these 2 so I'm not gonna be the boy who cried quickban.


I feel like this thing has potential. A lack of recovery sucks, but I feel like an aggressive sleep talk set would fair pretty well. Those defensive stats + Unaware make this thing a ridiculous PhysDef wall. Even with Sword of Ruin AND a Life Orb, Chien-Pao only has a Roll 4HKO on this thing. Combine that with Chilling Water and this thing becomes immortal against any physical attacker. Bonkers.


Was a little much before, but with the Rage Fist adjustment, feels just right now. No incredible OP hazard gluzzing Rage Fists. Very solid Bulk Up sweeper, and fun to play with, but not overbearing. Love this monkey.

and lastly I want to show off an absolute nuclear set.

Are you tired of Cyclizar substitutes? Boy do I have the set for you!

Toxtricity @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Sludge Bomb

Who needs Substitute when you can just insta-kill through the sub. Silk Scarf is funny to run because it fakes a specs while also keeping Boomburst at optimal nuclear power. I personally don't prefer using Throat Spray because I usually come in with this thing 2-3 times per match, and after the first time in you lose a lot of your initial punch. Once Shift Gear goes up, if no ghosts are left its over. Boomburst just runs through the opponents team.

 

[viol and bass]

So dont play a fatter team then

yeah fair honestly

 

[Athyestic]

i ran into bu scream tail on the ladder and thinking about it it's surprisingly interesting
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Wish
- Drain Punch
- Play Rough
set i considered, it's access to stab play rough, drain punch + wish for recovery (drain can be swapped out for coverage or even sub if you wanna be cheeky)
ofc having base 65 attack means you're not breaking through teams without multiple bulk ups, and it's still a scream tail, but it could be super heat
thoughts?

 

[rosesscythes]

Yeah, there should absolutely be a tier where you can use bad Ubers and I’ve held that opinion for ages too. The problem with that right now is, with all the old Legendaries gone at the moment, the difference between OU and Ubers is only a handful of Pokémon. You could literally fit all of the existing Ubers on a single team. But once the old Legendaries come back and the tier gets bigger, I think having a discussion about UUbers would be prudent. I honestly don’t know why tier leaders keep rejecting the idea when there’s clearly a very big chunk of the community that wants it.

I mean even beyond SV, I'm shocked National Dex has so consistently rejected it.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

If it makes you feel better, Zamazenta probably has a non-Zero chance of being OU safe with the nerf hammer they gave it to mirror Zacian, at this rate.

GF did also give Zenta a HUGE buff by finally giving it Body Press. Why it didn't get it last gen, no one knows. Will it be broken in ubers with it? Probably not. But it got what it needed to keep it out of OU.

 

[CarrierPidove]

i ran into bu scream tail on the ladder and thinking about it it's surprisingly interesting
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Wish
- Drain Punch
- Play Rough
set i considered, it's access to stab play rough, drain punch + wish for recovery (drain can be swapped out for coverage or even sub if you wanna be cheeky)
ofc having base 65 attack means you're not breaking through teams without multiple bulk ups, and it's still a scream tail, but it could be super heat
thoughts?

This set feels so cursed but i have seen people use it on ladder, and wouldve walled my team pretty well if I didn't have Pre-Fix Annhialape

 

[bogglywoods]

I mean even beyond SV, I'm shocked National Dex has so consistently rejected it.

NatDex doesn't even have an inbetween of OU/AG at all, mostly because a lack of any apparent drive or visible playerbase for it in the past.

 

[nyph]

How about that all the quickbans are put on a separate suspect ladder for a couple weeks before becoming main ladder. That way, all of the pro battlers get to play their more balanced meta straight away, and the casuals like me get to play the new mons at least a little before they're gone. Most people with the actual games I know haven't even beaten the E4 yet and there is already 4 mons banned from OU... It strikes me as a little fast and might be frustrating for the less hardcore players.

 

[bogglywoods]

How about that all the quickbans are put on a separate suspect ladder for a couple weeks before becoming main ladder. That way, all of the pro battlers get to play their more balanced meta straight away, and the casuals like me get to play the new mons at least a little before they're gone. Most people with the actual games I know haven't even beaten the E4 yet and there is already 4 mons banned from OU... It strikes me as a little fast and might be frustrating for the less hardcore players.

Is it really worth it to have a seperate "new toys" ladder that would have to be moderated and maintained just because people don't want to go to Ubers to play with the Pokemon pretty widely agreed upon as broken?

 

[DaemonChop]

How about that all the quickbans are put on a separate suspect ladder for a couple weeks before becoming main ladder. That way, all of the pro battlers get to play their more balanced meta straight away, and the casuals like me get to play the new mons at least a little before they're gone. Most people with the actual games I know haven't even beaten the E4 yet and there is already 4 mons banned from OU... It strikes me as a little fast and might be frustrating for the less hardcore players.

Go play ubers bro it has every banned mon and then some

 

[CarrierPidove]

How about that all the quickbans are put on a separate suspect ladder for a couple weeks before becoming main ladder. That way, all of the pro battlers get to play their more balanced meta straight away, and the casuals like me get to play the new mons at least a little before they're gone. Most people with the actual games I know haven't even beaten the E4 yet and there is already 4 mons banned from OU... It strikes me as a little fast and might be frustrating for the less hardcore players.

I get where youre coming from but honestly having to mantain another ladder just because some people want to use some new mons more is insane to ask the council for, there is ubers if you want to use the new mons

 

[bogglywoods]

Is it really worth it to have a seperate "new toys" ladder that would have to be moderated and maintained just because people don't want to go to Ubers to play with the Pokemon pretty widely agreed upon as broken?

I will say I do 100% understand how annoying it is when 5 of your favorites are OU/UU and one is banned from OU into Ubers, but outside of legendary spam teams (and even then) it isn't at all impossible to come out on top with a team like that if you play decently. Hell, anecdotally my best friend beat out 2 legendary spam teams with his old Gen 7 UU Shell Smash Swift Swim Gorebyss team. Unless playing with the new toys evolves into genuinely trying to climb the ladder you should be fine in Ubers I think.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

i ran into bu scream tail on the ladder and thinking about it it's surprisingly interesting
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Wish
- Drain Punch
- Play Rough
set i considered, it's access to stab play rough, drain punch + wish for recovery (drain can be swapped out for coverage or even sub if you wanna be cheeky)
ofc having base 65 attack means you're not breaking through teams without multiple bulk ups, and it's still a scream tail, but it could be super heat
thoughts?

Thanks for the Set, I ran TerraSteel Calm Mind Wish Stored Power Terra Blast @ Leftovers and it was like a super quick Cresselia.

I also really like the image of Jigglypuff punchibg mons like in Melee - gonna make one ingame asap!

What Terra-Type is considered great though?

 

[Athyestic]

Thanks for the Set, I ran TerraSteel Calm Mind Wish Stored Power Terra Blast @ Leftovers and it was like a super quick Cresselia.

I also really like the image of Jigglypuff punchibg mons like in Melee - gonna make one ingame asap!

What Terra-Type is considered great though?

I'm not too sure really. You can try Electric to surprise Dondozo, maybe Normal to prevent Shadow Balls, or Steel to flip some of your weaknesses on their head.

 

[TheRealBigC]

Bundle is not even some unstoppable broken force that just wins. Choice bundles are bad because locking into a bad move gives u free setup. Boots bundle just mitigates its ability and at that point its pretty easy to deal with if u playing offense. If u play a fat team and have no way to punish bundle then thats a team building diff

wtf is setting up against Choice Bundle lmao? Specs is incredibly tough to deal with because basically nothing wants to eat Specs Freeze Dry, especially with hazards up. Boots is arguably even harder to manage because practically every Ice resist in the meta does not want to take a Hydro Pump, and it's not even getting worn by hazards over the game.

It's easy to punish Bundle in a vacuum via Mach Punch, Scarf, or some mon that can take one hit in kill in return, but actually punishing it in practice is far harder, especially for HDB sets which can switch their moves and aren't getting chipped by hazards. I'm not claiming to be an expert at competitive Pokémon, but in my experience, it is incredibly difficult to kill Bundle if you don't have a dedicated special wall without sacking something, using Tera, or relying on your opponent messing up somehow. There is really no consistent counterplay to Bundle besides Blissey or certain AV mons, and to me that is unacceptable.

For the point about teambuilding, it being such a massive constraint on the builder is another reason I'm glad it's banned

 

[ritch.]

We banned Palafin. Palafin's checks where all bulky Pokemon like Amoonguss, which largely fit on stall (and balance).
We banned Iron Bundle. Iron Bundle's primary checks where Pokemon like Blissey, which only fits on stall.

If anything, we are legislating the metagame to be more offensive and proactive as we ban things that do not have sufficient offensive counterplay, which is a symptom of being broken/banworthy. Perhaps the system is working just fine and you are mad for the sake of being mad.

Again, common finch W

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Is Staraptor decent in SV OU?

 

[Player J]

Bundle should not have been banned. Powerful threats will continue to be banned until we end up in hazard stack + goldendgho bulky offense/balance wars.

whats sad is gamefreak clearly tried to make the game more offensive by nerfing recovery move pp. so not sure why people wantes bundle banned under the pretense “blissey is the only switch in”. Just play offense vs offense wtf is a switch in

YES!!!!!!!
Defend your Broken Uber Pokémon to the bitter end!
I can‘t wait, until your Iron Bundle Offense goes toe to toe vs. Uber Miraidon Offense.

Once, you get curve stomped enough times your going to get sick of Offense vs. Offense.
Than you will begin to understand why people care about switch in’s.

 

[Athyestic]

Is Staraptor decent in SV OU?

It's... fine, I guess?
It still hits pretty hard but there's many more pokemon that handle it, and its liable to be revenge killed (we live in a metagame where 100 base speed is slow.) Choice Scarf fixes this but you lose out on a bunch of power, and don't even try defensive.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

YES!!!!!!!
Defend your Broken Uber Pokémon to the bitter end!
I can‘t wait, until your Iron Bundle Offense goes toe to toe vs. Uber Miraidon Offense.

Once, you get curve stomped enough times your going to get sick of Offense vs. Offense.
Than you will begin to understand why people care about switch in’s.

Iron Bundle isn't stopped by Water Absorb Pokemon?