Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[TheRealBigC]

New mons should not be banned without a community vote this early on in the meta :)

The exact opposite is true imo. In brand new metas with brand new mons, it's much easier to tell what offensive presences in a tier are immediately broken. Quickbans make more sense at an earlier stage so that the meta can be stabilised without needing to wait months for community votes. If we had put all of the mons banned so far to community votes instead, we would have ended up in the exact same position except months later and with a much more disgruntled playerbase. I've yet to see any substantial compelling arguments as to why any of Flutter Mane, Last Respects, Iron Bundle or Palafin shouldn't have been banned beyond "oh the meta is new therefore we should put up with blatantly uncompetitive elements longer than necessary" and the classic "Smogon hates fun/loves stall"

 

[Player J]

Literally the only good pokemon in that list are corviknight and scizor. Hawlucha can do some neat stuff but it never wants defog, and if I'm feeling really generous I might ever consider putting Talonflame on a team (I won't though). If you're putting any of the them on your team to make you more resistant to hazard spam, you should build teams less vulnerable to hazard spam.

in what world is lurantis getting a defog off even if it was the only one in the whole game lol?

Those aren't viable defoggers at all, with or without corv.

Scizor is a maybe but scizor would rather do more than be a support mon right now. If you have to run literal garbage tier just to keep hazards off the field... fuck it at that point we'd have to look at how centralizing hazards themselves are.

I just don't see how that;s a good argument for removing good as gold.

But not only does that one 1 pokemon has that 1 ability, it's also one of the most common mons on ladder. Sure a few of them are good but out of those good mons would realisticly run defog. Like Hawlucha can technically run defog but it has other moves it rather run.

I stated Gholdengo is a Pokémon with an Ubers ability “Good as Gold”.
I stated Gholdengo Uber Ability is completely shutting down all Defoggers in the current Pokémon pool (Total of 14 Pokémon)
I believe Gholdengo needs to be Quick Ban, until the Ability can be compared with another Pokémon.


Players responding to me by saying Gholdengo is fine because all the Pokémon he is oppressing are shitmon’s is not a valid reason.
I am sorry, but the perspective of what makes a good Pokémon vs. a bad Pokemon is not clear cut.

Lurantis could be an amazing Defogger for a Sunny Day Grass Team.
Lurantis offers utility in the form of Defog.
Lurantis offers the powerful Stab move Solar Blade which while used in the Sun light doesn’t need to be charged.
The reason a player would use Lurantis as their Defogger instead of a Corviknight is simply because Lurantis fits better on this specific team.

Is Lurantis a bad Pokémon?
Lurantis could be seen as bad on a Non-Sunny Day Teams, but on a Sunny Day Grass Team Lurantis could be the Best Defogger on the block.

Similarly, I could make a case for the other 13 Defogging Pokémon as well.
You have to remember Hundreds of Thousands of teams exist in the game of Pokémon.
Some Pokémon shine better in certain teams vs. other teams.

Don’t limit your mind by putting self imposed labels on Pokémon.
Limiting your mind does nothing except hurt your own personal Pokémon development growth.

Over the past 20 years, I have seen Pokémon who where considered OU Staples drop from OU to NU.
I have seen Pokémon who people considered bottom of the barrel NU Pokémon rise the ranks to become OU Juggernauts.
Sometimes all it takes is 1 person with an open mind that is passionate to change everything.

In Gen 1, The Pokémon Golem was considered a OU Staple.
Every team was running him for his ground typing to counter the Electric Sweepers.

A player tried the Pokémon Rhydon instead of Golem.
The player said Rhydon is a ground type as well.

Do you know what people said?
They said Rhydon was inferior to Golem because Golem had the move Explosion.

Access to the move Explosion guaranteed Golem the ability to at least take out 1 enemy Pokémon potentially 2.
The lack of the move Explosion on Rhydon meant he might not faint any enemy Pokémon.

20 years later, Golem is in NU
Rhydon the Pokémon who was inferior to Golem and who was never going to replace Golem is now ranked 6th.
Rhydon is the 6th most used OU Pokémon in Gen 1.

5 years earlier, Players thought the Gen 1 Meta was figured out!
The Gen 1 Meta stayed consistent for over 15 years.

Than 1 day a player came up with a strategy never seen before.
The player used the Pokémon Victreebell.

Do you know what Players said?
They said Victreebell was a trash Pokemon.
They said Victreebell was a NU Pokémon.
They said Victreebell was just a waste of time.

Do you know what the Victreebell Player said?
He said Victreebell was his Favorite Pokémon and he was going to make Victreebell Great!

Overnight, Victreebell went from NU to OU completely destroying teams.
Team’s which were considered Meta for over 15 years.

1 Player open minded and passionate about the Pokémon they loved was all it took to flip the 15 year old Meta on its head.
Good Pokémon vs. Bad Pokémon is nothing more than an imaginary line which we draw that is razor thin.

 

[alephgalactus]

I stated Gholdengo is a Pokémon with an Ubers ability “Good as Gold”.
I stated Gholdengo Uber Ability is completely shutting down all Defoggers in the current Pokémon pool (Total of 14 Pokémon)
I believe Gholdengo needs to be Quick Ban, until the Ability can be compared with another Pokémon.


Players responding to me by saying Gholdengo is fine because all the Pokémon he is oppressing are shitmon’s is not a valid reason.
I am sorry, but the perspective of what makes a good Pokémon vs. a bad Pokemon is not clear cut.

Lurantis could be an amazing Defogger for a Sunny Day Grass Team.
Lurantis offers utility in the form of Defog.
Lurantis offers the powerful Stab move Solar Blade which while used in the Sun light doesn’t need to be charged.
The reason a player would use Lurantis as their Defogger instead of a Corviknight is simply because Lurantis fits better on this specific team.

Is Lurantis a bad Pokémon?
Lurantis could be seen as bad on a Non-Sunny Day Teams, but on a Sunny Day Grass Team Lurantis could be the Best Defogger on the block.

Similarly, I could make a case for the other 13 Defogging Pokémon as well.
You have to remember Hundreds of Thousands of teams exist in the game of Pokémon.
Some Pokémon shine better in certain teams vs. other teams.

Don’t limit your mind by putting self imposed labels on Pokémon.
Limiting your mind does nothing except hurt your own personal Pokémon development growth.

Over the past 20 years, I have seen Pokémon who where considered OU Staples drop from OU to NU.
I have seen Pokémon who people considered bottom of the barrel NU Pokémon rise the ranks to become OU Juggernauts.
Sometimes all it takes is 1 person with an open mind that is passionate to change everything.

In Gen 1, The Pokémon Golem was considered a OU Staple.
Every team was running him for his ground typing to counter the Electric Sweepers.

A player tried the Pokémon Rhydon instead of Golem.
The player said Rhydon is a ground type as well.

Do you know what people said?
They said Rhydon was inferior to Golem because Golem had the move Explosion.

Access to the move Explosion guaranteed Golem the ability to at least take out 1 enemy Pokémon potentially 2.
The lack of the move Explosion on Rhydon meant he might not faint any enemy Pokémon.

20 years later, Golem is in NU
Rhydon the Pokémon who was inferior to Golem and who was never going to replace Golem is now ranked 6th.
Rhydon is the 6th most used OU Pokémon in Gen 1.

5 years earlier, Players thought the Gen 1 Meta was figured out!
The Gen 1 Meta stayed consistent for over 15 years.

Than 1 day a player came up with a strategy never seen before.
The player used the Pokémon Victreebell.

Do you know what Players said?
They said Victreebell was a trash Pokemon.
They said Victreebell was a NU Pokémon.
They said Victreebell was just a waste of time.

Do you know what the Victreebell Player said?
He said Victreebell was his Favorite Pokémon and he was going to make Victreebell Great!

Overnight, Victreebell went from NU to OU completely destroying teams.
Team’s which were considered Meta for over 15 years.

1 Player open minded and passionate about the Pokémon they loved was all it took to flip the 15 year old Meta on its head.
Good Pokémon vs. Bad Pokémon is nothing more than an imaginary line which we draw that is razor thin.

Why do you format your posts like an 80-year-old on Facebook?

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I stated Gholdengo is a Pokémon with an Ubers ability “Good as Gold”.
I stated Gholdengo Uber Ability is completely shutting down all Defoggers in the current Pokémon pool (Total of 14 Pokémon)
I believe Gholdengo needs to be Quick Ban, until the Ability can be compared with another Pokémon.


Players responding to me by saying Gholdengo is fine because all the Pokémon he is oppressing are shitmon’s is not a valid reason.
I am sorry, but the perspective of what makes a good Pokémon vs. a bad Pokemon is not clear cut.

Lurantis could be an amazing Defogger for a Sunny Day Grass Team.
Lurantis offers utility in the form of Defog.
Lurantis offers the powerful Stab move Solar Blade which while used in the Sun light doesn’t need to be charged.
The reason a player would use Lurantis as their Defogger instead of a Corviknight is simply because Lurantis fits better on this specific team.

Is Lurantis a bad Pokémon?
Lurantis could be seen as bad on a Non-Sunny Day Teams, but on a Sunny Day Grass Team Lurantis could be the Best Defogger on the block.

Similarly, I could make a case for the other 13 Defogging Pokémon as well.
You have to remember Hundreds of Thousands of teams exist in the game of Pokémon.
Some Pokémon shine better in certain teams vs. other teams.

Don’t limit your mind by putting self imposed labels on Pokémon.
Limiting your mind does nothing except hurt your own personal Pokémon development growth.

Over the past 20 years, I have seen Pokémon who where considered OU Staples drop from OU to NU.
I have seen Pokémon who people considered bottom of the barrel NU Pokémon rise the ranks to become OU Juggernauts.
Sometimes all it takes is 1 person with an open mind that is passionate to change everything.

In Gen 1, The Pokémon Golem was considered a OU Staple.
Every team was running him for his ground typing to counter the Electric Sweepers.

A player tried the Pokémon Rhydon instead of Golem.
The player said Rhydon is a ground type as well.

Do you know what people said?
They said Rhydon was inferior to Golem because Golem had the move Explosion.

Access to the move Explosion guaranteed Golem the ability to at least take out 1 enemy Pokémon potentially 2.
The lack of the move Explosion on Rhydon meant he might not faint any enemy Pokémon.

20 years later, Golem is in NU
Rhydon the Pokémon who was inferior to Golem and who was never going to replace Golem is now ranked 6th.
Rhydon is the 6th most used OU Pokémon in Gen 1.

5 years earlier, Players thought the Gen 1 Meta was figured out!
The Gen 1 Meta stayed consistent for over 15 years.

Than 1 day a player came up with a strategy never seen before.
The player used the Pokémon Victreebell.

Do you know what Players said?
They said Victreebell was a trash Pokemon.
They said Victreebell was a NU Pokémon.
They said Victreebell was just a waste of time.

Do you know what the Victreebell Player said?
He said Victreebell was his Favorite Pokémon and he was going to make Victreebell Great!

Overnight, Victreebell went from NU to OU completely destroying teams.
Team’s which were considered Meta for over 15 years.

1 Player open minded and passionate about the Pokémon they loved was all it took to flip the 15 year old Meta on its head.
Good Pokémon vs. Bad Pokémon is nothing more than an imaginary line which we draw that is razor thin.

Yes gholdengo has an op ability, but its not super duper bulky (Base 90 something bulk is not awful honestly...) and certain wallbreakers can capitalize on its not so great weird speed tier. Base 84 is such an awkward speed tier that it keeps gholdengo in check in my eyes. This means that if mons like Quaquaval or Great Tusk that are running jolly could actually beat Gholdengo in a 1v1 if they have speed increasing natures and gholdengo is not running scarf. Gholdengo has a busted ability, but it has a pretty huge weakness in its speed tier which by current OU standards since Gholdengo cannot patch up its speed weakness very easily can really hurt it against a lot of relevant mons like Quaquaval, Great Tusk, and especially some of the really fast threats like Pult and Chien Pao.

Remember that pokemon can have OP abilities and be really bad or not broken. In gholdengo's case it is a good pokemon with a weird speed weakness that hurts it against a lot of pokemon.

Look at frosmoth or furfrou, they are not great but they have op as hell abilities.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Being real that made it easier for others to ladder ;)

That's kind of the problem, though. You undermine the integrity of a competitive metagame when you artificially inflate usage of Pokemon in tiers where they aren't seeing organic use. You shouldn't get easy wins because of things like that.

 

[alephgalactus]

Personally I was referring to Ambipom in UU and bring back Tyranitar campaigns launched by pokeaim and others, essentially forcing usage of Pokemon that fell down in tiers to rise up into metas where they aren't very viable at the time simply because they wanted it to

To be fair, Tyranitar eventually did find his place in OU again, but I do hate seeing shitmons memed into higher tiers than they should be. Guarantee some Poketuber is going to make a video about Maushold and it’ll end up UU.

Perhaps there should be some sort of consortium composed of representatives of every tier’s council that can overrule tiering changes if and only if they’re determined to be artificial and not the natural result of a developing metagame. The alternative is Pokémon being arbitrarily inserted into tiers where they’re not viable at the whim of a meme or anyone with a big enough platform and the competitive landscape suffering as a result due to their absence in tiers where they’re needed, which we’ve seen since Donphan in Gen 6.

 

[CarrierPidove]

To be fair, Tyranitar eventually did find his place in OU again, but I do hate seeing shitmons memed into higher tiers than they should be. Guarantee some Poketuber is going to make a video about Maushold and it’ll end up UU.

honestly could see maushold thriving in the lower teirs, pretty decent speed and power for what it does

 

[Reviews2D]

I stated Gholdengo is a Pokémon with an Ubers ability “Good as Gold”.
I stated Gholdengo Uber Ability is completely shutting down all Defoggers in the current Pokémon pool (Total of 14 Pokémon)
I believe Gholdengo needs to be Quick Ban, until the Ability can be compared with another Pokémon.


Players responding to me by saying Gholdengo is fine because all the Pokémon he is oppressing are shitmon’s is not a valid reason.
I am sorry, but the perspective of what makes a good Pokémon vs. a bad Pokemon is not clear cut.

Lurantis could be an amazing Defogger for a Sunny Day Grass Team.
Lurantis offers utility in the form of Defog.
Lurantis offers the powerful Stab move Solar Blade which while used in the Sun light doesn’t need to be charged.
The reason a player would use Lurantis as their Defogger instead of a Corviknight is simply because Lurantis fits better on this specific team.

Is Lurantis a bad Pokémon?
Lurantis could be seen as bad on a Non-Sunny Day Teams, but on a Sunny Day Grass Team Lurantis could be the Best Defogger on the block.

Similarly, I could make a case for the other 13 Defogging Pokémon as well.
You have to remember Hundreds of Thousands of teams exist in the game of Pokémon.
Some Pokémon shine better in certain teams vs. other teams.

Don’t limit your mind by putting self imposed labels on Pokémon.
Limiting your mind does nothing except hurt your own personal Pokémon development growth.

Over the past 20 years, I have seen Pokémon who where considered OU Staples drop from OU to NU.
I have seen Pokémon who people considered bottom of the barrel NU Pokémon rise the ranks to become OU Juggernauts.
Sometimes all it takes is 1 person with an open mind that is passionate to change everything.

In Gen 1, The Pokémon Golem was considered a OU Staple.
Every team was running him for his ground typing to counter the Electric Sweepers.

A player tried the Pokémon Rhydon instead of Golem.
The player said Rhydon is a ground type as well.

Do you know what people said?
They said Rhydon was inferior to Golem because Golem had the move Explosion.

Access to the move Explosion guaranteed Golem the ability to at least take out 1 enemy Pokémon potentially 2.
The lack of the move Explosion on Rhydon meant he might not faint any enemy Pokémon.

20 years later, Golem is in NU
Rhydon the Pokémon who was inferior to Golem and who was never going to replace Golem is now ranked 6th.
Rhydon is the 6th most used OU Pokémon in Gen 1.

5 years earlier, Players thought the Gen 1 Meta was figured out!
The Gen 1 Meta stayed consistent for over 15 years.

Than 1 day a player came up with a strategy never seen before.
The player used the Pokémon Victreebell.

Do you know what Players said?
They said Victreebell was a trash Pokemon.
They said Victreebell was a NU Pokémon.
They said Victreebell was just a waste of time.

Do you know what the Victreebell Player said?
He said Victreebell was his Favorite Pokémon and he was going to make Victreebell Great!

Overnight, Victreebell went from NU to OU completely destroying teams.
Team’s which were considered Meta for over 15 years.

1 Player open minded and passionate about the Pokémon they loved was all it took to flip the 15 year old Meta on its head.
Good Pokémon vs. Bad Pokémon is nothing more than an imaginary line which we draw that is razor thin.

Your original post made it seem like you where saying those mons where viable defoggers so bad for the misunderstanding. However your examples for Generation 1 are good, Rhydon was always considered as viable(if not more) as Golem, they are seen as two mons with similar roles that had their own advantages over one another, with one ultimately becoming vastly preferred. People don't just choose their "favorites" then have them became a part of the meta game. Victreebell is a mon with good traits(Sleep, paralysis, warp, decent offensive stats) that could be valuable in a game(although it's faults hold it back from being a top mon).

 

[Player J]

Why do you format your posts like an 80-year-old on Facebook?

Sounds like your Peanut Butter & Jealous to me.
Do you wish you had the same formatting skill?

 

[Wenby]

To be fair, Tyranitar eventually did find his place in OU again, but I do hate seeing shitmons memed into higher tiers than they should be. Guarantee some Poketuber is going to make a video about Maushold and it’ll end up UU.

Hot take but while it does artificially inflate the usage of a pokemon, I do like how these campaigns promote exploring a pokemon's potential beyond what's already known. Even if they end up being bad, examining niche mons can at least confirm their status as bad pokemon. And if they prove to have a legit niche, then it's for all the better.

I do get how irritating it can be though. It's not fun when Mr.Funny Man decides to milk one pokemon for a month just for his clickbait. And then you have to deal with a wave of "Scrimblo Bimblo, the loveable last resort user".
But I also like staying positive. I'm happy it can offer niche pokemon new players that can study all of its options.

 

[topshotta]

Bundle should not have been banned. Powerful threats will continue to be banned until we end up in hazard stack + goldendgho bulky offense/balance wars.

whats sad is gamefreak clearly tried to make the game more offensive by nerfing recovery move pp. so not sure why people wantes bundle banned under the pretense “blissey is the only switch in”. Just play offense vs offense wtf is a switch in

 

[Divine Retribution]

whats sad is gamefreak clearly tried to make the game more offensive by nerfing recovery move pp.

Citing any attempt GameFreak makes to balance anything, especially in regards to Singles, is not a good argument.

 

[alephgalactus]

Hot take but while it does artificially inflate the usage of a pokemon, I do like how these campaigns promote exploring a pokemon's potential beyond what's already known. Even if they end up being bad, examining niche mons can at least confirm their status as bad pokemon. And if they prove to have a legit niche, then it's for all the better.

I agree that novel strategies should be tried out, and if a previously non-used Pokémon ends up viable enough to pass the minimum threshold in a higher tier, it should stay there regardless of how it was introduced, but I don’t like living in a world where anyone with a million subscribers can theoretically force C&C writers to come up with an OU analysis for Magikarp. I’m just proposing that there should be a last-resort option to prevent people from gaming the system. As it currently stands, anyone determined enough or popular enough can effectively unilaterally ban a Pokémon from any tier lower than OU by memeing it into a higher tier. I don’t like that.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

Dragons of SV OU

I've been spamming quite a lot of Dragons as of lately, I wanna share my experiences for some of them.

Re: Re: Roaring Moon



Dragonite

Main set I've been using is Band Extremespeed on Tera Normal. The power levels is insane, half of tier is straight out OHKOed, let alone 2hko. With hazards omnipresent Dragonite is one of most vicious cleaners rn.

View attachment 468543

Im posting this in basically every platform possible, Sorry of this is a repost but this is just hilarious.

DD sets are still strong, you can make a good use of Tera Steel to block Fairy- and Ice-types in one go. Overall Dragonite is still a pretty relevant threat.

Dragapult

Specs set is still omnipresent, havent seen any creative set beside Tera Ghost to boost Shadow Balls. Shoutouts to that one dude who had Band Tera Blast bcuz they didnt wanna run Phantom Force. Its still an incredibly good Pokemon with perfect ish Coverage but for some reason not a lot of people are using it.

Taking a minute to highlight this post particularly re: Dragonite since it seems a lot of attention is on Dragapult rn. Dragonite is actually so good, compared to Roaring Moon which runs the occasional DD set Dragonite has something it doesn't — a good priority move (with optional STAB). Sun teams in particular really get shit on by Dragonite (speaking from personal experience anyway) and the lack of Bundle should really see more teams consider Dragonite as a cleaner/sweeper option.

 

[alephgalactus]

Taking a minute to highlight this post particularly re: Dragonite since it seems a lot of attention is on Dragapult rn. Dragonite is actually so good, compared to Roaring Moon which runs the occasional DD set Dragonite has something it doesn't — a good priority move (with optional STAB). Sun teams in particular really get shit on by Dragonite (speaking from personal experience anyway) and the lack of Bundle should really see more teams consider Dragonite as a cleaner/sweeper option.

I agree that a lot of people are overlooking Dragonite right now. Tera Normal effectively turns it into EKiller Arceus if you get a Dragon Dance or two up, and with Multiscale you virtually guarantee at least one.

 

[TheRealBigC]

Bundle should not have been banned. Powerful threats will continue to be banned until we end up in hazard stack + goldendgho bulky offense/balance wars.

whats sad is gamefreak clearly tried to make the game more offensive by nerfing recovery move pp. so not sure why people wantes bundle banned under the pretense “blissey is the only switch in”. Just play offense vs offense wtf is a switch in

"This broken mon should not have been banned because more powerful mons might be banned in the future and then I might not like the meta anymore"
"Broken threats shouldn't be banned because recovery moves have less PP"
"Just use HO bro lmao"
What a great post, Council should reverse their decision and unban Bundle

 

[G-Luke]

Banded DNite is also just an insane Pokémon like LMAO

 

[Mawb]

I've yet to see any substantial compelling arguments as to why any of Flutter Mane, Last Respects, Iron Bundle or Palafin shouldn't have been banned beyond "oh the meta is new therefore we should put up with blatantly uncompetitive elements longer than necessary" and the classic "Smogon hates fun/loves stall"

Because Iron Bundle is cool.

 

[SinnohEevee]

What's better for Espathra? Psychic or Lumina Crash? I know Psychic has higher BP, but Lumina Crash lowers your opponent's SpD.

 

[Msousagamer]

What's better for Espathra? Psychic or Lumina Crash? I know Psychic has higher BP, but Lumina Crash lowers your opponent's SpD.

Just use stored power with speed boost

 

[rosesscythes]

Hot take but while it does artificially inflate the usage of a pokemon, I do like how these campaigns promote exploring a pokemon's potential beyond what's already known. Even if they end up being bad, examining niche mons can at least confirm their status as bad pokemon. And if they prove to have a legit niche, then it's for all the better.

I do get how irritating it can be though. It's not fun when Mr.Funny Man decides to milk one pokemon for a month just for his clickbait. And then you have to deal with a wave of "Scrimblo Bimblo, the loveable last resort user".
But I also like staying positive. I'm happy it can offer niche pokemon new players that can study all of its options.

Will also point out beyond our own stances at OU players, the people with more valid frustrations imo are those in the lower tiers those mons can be used healthily in get robbed of a fun toy.

Of course, I do still wish someone would set a mind to finding some playable space for bad Ubers. While the likes of Solgaleo, Spectrier, Zamazenta, and base form Deoxys have long been proven to be too much for OU, I’ve always found it sad that they’re useless in Ubers, and wish there was some kind of OUBL or UUbers for their fans to use them in, even if it’d be about as official as ZU.

 

[Outhman]

I agree that novel strategies should be tried out, and if a previously non-used Pokémon ends up viable enough to pass the minimum threshold in a higher tier, it should stay there regardless of how it was introduced, but I don’t like living in a world where anyone with a million subscribers can theoretically force C&C writers to come up with an OU analysis for Magikarp. I’m just proposing that there should be a last-resort option to prevent people from gaming the system. As it currently stands, anyone determined enough or popular enough can effectively unilaterally ban a Pokémon from any tier lower than OU by memeing it into a higher tier. I don’t like that.

I definitely agree, I don't like the idea of robbing lower tiers of pokemons because of trends, but this goes beyond just the loudest bunch. I remember Azelf usage significantly increased in Gen 6 because of bird spam with OLT, but in the end, this is one of the many flaws that come with a usage based tiering system i guess... And people are trying to find a way to fix that.

Because Iron Bundle is cool.

It is! But the Volcarona variations are the coolest!

Palafin, Flutter Mane and Houndstone were blatantly broken I think in the eyes of everyone, but Iron Bundle was surprisingly one vote away from not getting banned... So i'd wager people still got more compelling arguments as to why it wasn't deserving to get the boot, but I doubt I will get to read them anytime soon.

Now please, give Victory Dance to Slither Wing, thanks.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

I agree that a lot of people are overlooking Dragonite right now. Tera Normal effectively turns it into EKiller Arceus if you get a Dragon Dance or two up, and with Multiscale you virtually guarantee at least one.

Even without using the Tera EKiller strat, it's actually such a good counter/check for a lot of common mons, especially if you let one DD go off. Only downside is moveslot syndrome holding it back from eliminating larger chunks of the tier altogether. Honestly, I'm tempted to say it's better without tera than it is, just because the Steel/Normal teras can still get taken down by Tusk (albeit at significant cost)

 

[alephgalactus]

Of course, I do still wish someone would set a mind to finding some playable space for bad Ubers. While the likes of Solgaleo, Spectrier, Zamazenta, and base form Deoxys have long been proven to be too much for OU, I’ve always found it sad that they’re useless in Ubers, and wish there was some kind of OUBL or UUbers for their fans to use them in, even if it’d be about as official as ZU.

Yeah, there should absolutely be a tier where you can use bad Ubers and I’ve held that opinion for ages too. The problem with that right now is, with all the old Legendaries gone at the moment, the difference between OU and Ubers is only a handful of Pokémon. You could literally fit all of the existing Ubers on a single team. But once the old Legendaries come back and the tier gets bigger, I think having a discussion about UUbers would be prudent. I honestly don’t know why tier leaders keep rejecting the idea when there’s clearly a very big chunk of the community that wants it.

 

[pika pal]

Will also point out beyond our own stances at OU players, the people with more valid frustrations imo are those in the lower tiers those mons can be used healthily in get robbed of a fun toy.

Of course, I do still wish someone would set a mind to finding some playable space for bad Ubers. While the likes of Solgaleo, Spectrier, Zamazenta, and base form Deoxys have long been proven to be too much for OU, I’ve always found it sad that they’re useless in Ubers, and wish there was some kind of OUBL or UUbers for their fans to use them in, even if it’d be about as official as ZU.

If it makes you feel better, Zamazenta probably has a non-Zero chance of being OU safe with the nerf hammer they gave it to mirror Zacian, at this rate.

As far as the actual meta, I'm curious about what people can manage with the Starters now. Meowscarada appreciates one less demanding mon for Physically Bulky Defenses, Quaquaval enjoys his biggest (Physical) Water Competition being gone (as well as a reduction in their checks), and Skeledirge as an Unaware user likes the biggest Set-up mon not having SE STAB off 160 Base ATK.