Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Wenby]

I've been using njnp's team a lot recently and wow! (team here)
This team is insane even when you play it poorly. Really amazing synergy between every member of the team and screens in this meta are extremely valuable when everything hits like a truck. It helps everyone to get in and do their thing. Most of my losses came from my own bad plays and not my poor teambuilding. I highly recommend anyone to try it out.

It also has Hatterene and it opened my eyes on how useful Nuzzle is on her. Being able to paralyze Gholdengo and other fast mons like Chi-Yu, as well as cripple some defensive mons from moving is a blessing. Stored power is the cherry on top, though I do miss the raw power of Psyshock sometimes. But Nuzzle is 100% valiable on Hatterene and helps her become a great team player!

 

[alephgalactus]

Yeah this seems busted. I know the council doesn't like complex bans but I'd be in support of a salt cure + block ban. This seems flat out uncompetitive

Nah, if anything it’d just be a Block ban and I don’t see that happening. This set is very passive and serves as setup bait for stuff like Espathra (and possibly Dragonite if you don’t Tera at the right time). Even in the replay, it had -3 Sp. Def after it took out Clodsire, so it would have dropped dead to any special attacker.

 

[jdcomix]

Nah, if anything it’d just be a Block ban and I don’t see that happening. This set is very passive and serves as setup bait for stuff like Espathra (and possibly Dragonite if you don’t Tera at the right time). Even in the replay, it had -3 Sp. Def after it took out Clodsire, so it would have dropped dead to any special attacker.

Ah gotcha. That makes more sense

 

[Unknown Warrior]

Hey. Did you guys know that Garganacle learns BLOCK???

Saltcure + Block is an incredibely evil combination and it can lead to bullshit like this, it starts from turn 12:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1733473006

If you manage to trap something like Blissey or Skeliderge you can ensure you win the Recover wars because you can use Leppa Berry, effectively doubling your amount of Recovers (ek strats being relevant who whould have thought).

I know this is a low ladder game, but I'm p sure a better player could horrible things with this and I think it should be banned somehow xd

Skeledirge after terastalization, you mean? Because Skeledirge-Vanilla can't be trapped.

 

[Skyuchi]

Ok ok I just commented something on the Tera thread, and I'd like to post a very... interesting Chien-Pao set here.
Weavile-Mega (Chien-Pao) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Spinner
- Sacred Sword
- Recover
This is a move that Chien-Pao gets. All hail your new overlord, and any wrong turn will bring back all of the chip it's taken.
I'm unsure how good it would be in practice, but in theory this set is absolutely demonic.

I think the problem is with a defensive Chien-Pao is its typing. Tera might make it work, but it's really only bulky enough to take physical hits, because 80/65 special defenses are just kinda really terrible. The thing with that is that it's weak to Fighting/Steel/Rock/Bug so most physical attackers can smash it for a super effective hit, and against any defensive pokemon it still fears a U-Turn like the plague.
You would definitely need to EV it defensively and then things start to look a bit more reasonable.

4+ Atk Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 93-110 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Iron Hands Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Chien-Pao: 92-110 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Chien-Pao: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This IS factoring in its ability.

Just using Iron Hands for no real reason here but it could potentially work.

 

[fly casanova]

am I the only one who misses Tangrowth hella bad rn? every time I'm building and I think "oh, Amoongus might slot in well there", I realize how many strong ground types there are and how nice the pure grass type would be. Tusk, Treads, Chomp, Clod, Tingy, and Hippo are all immediately recognized as threats to account for. gen8 has Lando, Chomp, Hippo, and fringe Nidoking to think about, but that's about it. I feel like Tang would have minimal trouble with all gen9's grounds compared to Among Gus.

as an aside - these guys are all strong as hell, all get rocks, most get spikes. no wonder hazards are so good.

 

[alephgalactus]

Aw hell, I just realized Lando’s probably gonna get Spikes when it comes back, isn’t it. Well, we had a good run.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Aw hell, I just realized Lando’s probably gonna get Spikes when it comes back, isn’t it. Well, we had a good run.

It does not unless the movesets will be updated with a patch, a possibility that discussing now would be even more pointless theorymon.

 

[Karxrida]

We do know it gets Nasty Plot so. That'll be fun.

 

[Athyestic]

I think the problem is with a defensive Chien-Pao is its typing. Tera might make it work, but it's really only bulky enough to take physical hits, because 80/65 special defenses are just kinda really terrible. The thing with that is that it's weak to Fighting/Steel/Rock/Bug so most physical attackers can smash it for a super effective hit, and against any defensive pokemon it still fears a U-Turn like the plague.
You would definitely need to EV it defensively and then things start to look a bit more reasonable.

4+ Atk Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 93-110 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Iron Hands Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Chien-Pao: 92-110 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Chien-Pao: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This IS factoring in its ability.

Just using Iron Hands for no real reason here but it could potentially work.

Holy mother of god I never once considered using it as a physical wall and my eyes have been blessed with the most beautiful sight to ever grace this site.

Although, as zantaRay so kindly pointed out for me:

I've gotten top 10 on gen4 ladder recently with ex belt slack off Infernape, a very similar pokemon to Chien-Pao in many ways. Recover lets you work off chip, and makes it hard to wear you down by switching around, especially if you're running life orb, which Chien Pao can do with hazard support. Don't be so rigid in your thinking.

It's less of a physical wall and more akin to a pokemon like Infernape here.

 

[Jerdor]

I've been loving Sun this Gen. Between the Paradox Pokemon, and good/broken Fire types Sun has felt really consistent and strong. The Paradox Pokemon, Great Tusk and Roaring Moon in particular, are what really hold this archetype together. It can't be understated how important having strong Pokemon that actually make use of the core mechanic that aren't tied to the mechanics associated typing is. Shout out to Great Tusk for being the GOAT and keeping rocks off the field.

The Fire types are also just really strong this Gen as well. I don't think I have to explain just how nutso Chi-Yu is, but Scovillian is a mon that Sun has always wanted. It took them 6 Generations, but we finally got a Chlorophyll user that's also a Fire Type. These peppers are not to be underestimated in the Sun.

252+ SpA Life Orb Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 243-289 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Scovillain Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 408-484 (79.3 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just a couple of examples of two of OU's most common special walls getting chewed up by Scovillian. Terastillization also benefits Scovillian, no surprise there. Tera Fighting/Ground also you to blow back some common checks such as Chi-Yu. Overall I've been impressed by the Peppers, and Sun as a whole.

 

[1LDK]

Fire Type. These peppers are not to be underestimated in the Sun.

I just came back from getting sweeped by one scovi and look what i found here, yeah, 1 growth + sun and your basically smoked
maybe because i suck at the game and didnt tried the correct set, but seems like he is better than i thought, sun also benefits from rain being trash, hail not having a good setter and Sand having only one sand force mon in Lycanrock (thanks ghost doggo) and only 2 sand force mons in gastrodon and hippo, and theres not that many good benefiters from sand,
Sun>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sand (Ttar counter chi yu if no tera)>Hail>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rain

 

[MasterPlayer]

Just heard the news that Chi-Yu got banned from NatDex OU. Wonder if the same will eventually happen in this meta one day

 

[Athyestic]

Just heard the news that Chi-Yu got banned from NatDex OU. Wonder if the same will eventually happen in this meta one day

I feel like its ban there had a lot to do with Z-Moves, so I feel it'll stay.

 

[Avira]

Chi-Yu is broken even without Tera and also doesn't need Z-Moves to be broken. Of all the current mons still in OU, it has the highest chance of being banned if I'm gauging the reaction of Smogon's userbase properly. Something stronger, faster, with a better STAB combo than Lele, and higher Base Power (Fire-type) moves that have no immunity that absolutely shred right through switch-ins has no business being legal in OU. It's basically a straight-up upgrade from Lele aside from being weak to priority.

 

[alephgalactus]

Of all the current mons still in OU, it has the highest chance of being banned if I'm gauging the reaction of Smogon's userbase properly.

I think the mon with the biggest ban chance right now is Cyclizar. Anyone who still doesn’t believe that Shed Tail is broken has probably been accidentally laddering in a different meta this whole time and hasn’t noticed yet. The only reason to not ban Cyclizar would be if there’s going to be a vote on Shed Tail instead, and considering how the Houndstone thing went, it’s probably going to be Cyclizar that goes until people realize “wait, Orthworm does the same stupid thing and just requires three brain cells instead of two”.

 

[fly casanova]

I've been loving Sun this Gen. Between the Paradox Pokemon, and good/broken Fire types Sun has felt really consistent and strong.

is there a strong ground immunity/resist you like to run? feels like sun teams are always weak to eq

 

[ApertureB]

Chi-Yu is broken even without Tera and also doesn't need Z-Moves to be broken. Of all the current mons still in OU, it has the highest chance of being banned if I'm gauging the reaction of Smogon's userbase properly. Something stronger, faster, with a better STAB combo than Lele, and higher Base Power (Fire-type) moves that have no immunity that absolutely shred right through switch-ins has no business being legal in OU. It's basically a straight-up upgrade from Lele aside from being weak to priority.

Shed Tail/Chi-Yu/Tera and to a smaller extent Gholdengo are currently destroying OU. Its absurd what the meta is right now imo. Alot of the things that are running around(That have no business still being in the tier still) are just flat out better versions of previously banned mechanics in a more limited metagame with now nerfed defensive options.

 

[alephgalactus]

is there a strong ground immunity/resist you like to run? feels like sun teams are always weak to eq

Charizard did just come out so we’ll probably start seeing that on sun teams soon enough, but then again, it is Charizard, so it’s probably best to choose something else.

 

[1LDK]

is there a strong ground immunity/resist you like to run? feels like sun teams are always weak to eq

I like to run Rotom Heat, its a good gholdengo check, also Dondozo, while a water type on sun sounds contradictory, don is so fat he doesnt care, he just body presses his way out

 

[Jerdor]

I just came back from getting sweeped by one scovi and look what i found here, yeah, 1 growth + sun and your basically smoked
maybe because i suck at the game and didnt tried the correct set, but seems like he is better than i thought, sun also benefits from rain being trash, hail not having a good setter and Sand having only one sand force mon in Lycanrock (thanks ghost doggo) and only 2 sand force mons in gastrodon and hippo, and theres not that many good benefiters from sand,
Sun>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sand (Ttar counter chi yu if no tera)>Hail>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rain

is there a strong ground immunity/resist you like to run? feels like sun teams are always weak to eq

Defensive Great Tusk is a pretty good Ground check for Sun Teams, and it's already a Pokemon you want anyways. Corviknight is also never bad, and can work well as a pivot with Choiced Roaring Moon. You can also swap either Scovillian or Chi-Yu for Charizard for the Ground immunity.

 

[Player J]

I've gotten top 10 on gen4 ladder recently with ex belt slack off Infernape, a very similar pokemon to Chien-Pao in many ways. Recover lets you work off chip, and makes it hard to wear you down by switching around, especially if you're running life orb, which Chien Pao can do with hazard support. Don't be so rigid in your thinking.

Good point I didn't consider that EQ would just cleanly 2HKO.

Athyestic recommends a Recovery move on a Squishy Pokémon in a HO Meta.
I tell them it doesn’t seem like a good idea.
I give Athyestic constructive criticism.

You respond to me by saying my thinking is rigid.
You don’t even know me.

Than you compare a Gen 4 Infernape in a meta game which has been established for years to a Gen 9 Chien-Po in a meta game which is new.
Maybe, just maybe, my thinking is fine.

My thinking is fine because I have no bias towards the idea of Chien-Po with the move Recover.
I am indifferent.

You, on the other hand, do have a bias.
You love Slack off Infernape and the similarities of using Chien-Po with Recover pulls at your heart strings.

However, these are 2 different Pokémon in 2 completely different meta games.
Telling a person something is Bad doesn’t mean it will be Bad forever.
Meta Games change over time.

I think Athyestic is wise enough to know the above.
A day may come when Athyestic move set on Chien-Po is the only move set people use on Chien-Po.

However, the day hasn’t come yet, we have to be truthful and objective to ourselves.
I have seen a lot of Chien-Po’s, but none of them used the move Recover.

In fact, The only Status move I have seen players use on Chien-Po is the move Sword Dance.
I have seen Players run Screens + Passing Sub’s to Chien-Po.
Than Sword Dance their Chien-Po up behind the Sub’s.

Maybe, there are other Status moves which have been used on Chien-Po.
It’s impossible for a individual person to see every Chien-Po fight.
We have only scratched the surface of move combination on Chien-Po.

 

[taziathegreat]

What spreads/sets are you guys running on your Kingambit’s ?

 

[kosecant]

Holy mother of god I never once considered using it as a physical wall and my eyes have been blessed with the most beautiful sight to ever grace this site.

Although, as zantaRay so kindly pointed out for me:

It's less of a physical wall and more akin to a pokemon like Infernape here.

It reminds me quite a bit of latios, which had a very similar recover 3 attack set. That was pretty strong, although I think the better defensive profile of latios makes it better suited for that type of gameplay

 

[Player J]

I think the problem is with a defensive Chien-Pao is its typing. Tera might make it work, but it's really only bulky enough to take physical hits, because 80/65 special defenses are just kinda really terrible. The thing with that is that it's weak to Fighting/Steel/Rock/Bug so most physical attackers can smash it for a super effective hit, and against any defensive pokemon it still fears a U-Turn like the plague.
You would definitely need to EV it defensively and then things start to look a bit more reasonable.

4+ Atk Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 93-110 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Iron Hands Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Chien-Pao: 92-110 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Chien-Pao: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This IS factoring in its ability.

Just using Iron Hands for no real reason here but it could potentially work.

Using Iron Hands to counter Chien-Po is what I have been doing since day 1 of Gen 9.
The moves you are using in your Calculations are wrong.

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Def / 200 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Wild Charge

0 Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chien-Pao: 364-432 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chien-Pao: 576-684 (158.2 - 187.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The above Calculations is if the enemy is running a Defensive CP.
Iron Hands 1 shots with no ATK investment and with out needing any Hazard on the field.

0 Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 520-616 (172.7 - 204.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 832-984 (276.4 - 326.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The above Calculations is if the enemy is running a Offensive CP.
Iron Hands damage is even nastier.

252+ Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 52 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 121-144 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 52 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 91-108 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
Sucker Punch & Crunch do nothing except tickle Iron Hands

The above Calculations is if enemy is running a Offense CP with Rock Damage on Iron Hands.
Iron Hands is simply unphased by Chien-Po