Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[ryangregory78]

Just here to report that bulky offense is genuinely impossible to run in this metagame. I've been trying to make it work ever since the game dropped and I haven't even cracked 1400s with it. In my opinion, it's clear that things like Shed Tail + Screens and Hazard Stack make bulky offense (and to a lesser extent balance) unbelievably difficult to run with the meta currently forcing you to run either skill-less hyper offense or stall. I'm sick and tired of this shitstorm of a metagame.

 

[Nashrock]

Floatzal, huh? I've been trying out different rain mons. I was experimenting Azumarill, Basculin, and Quaquaval, with Azumarill probably being the best of the 3. But I never considered Floatzel. It's not that strong compared to Barraskewda, right? Wouldn't you be better off just using Barraskewda?

Actually it's stronger than barraskewda if you don't mind the recoil.
252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Rain: 264-311 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Rain: 210-247 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Suricata]

The best counter to Chi-yu is just SR lol. Without tera, bulky boots Roaring Moon could works.

 

[awyp]

It's been a few days- how do people feel about Pawmot/Revival Blessing? It's solidified itself as a gimmick to me, but a very very good gimmick if piloted even decently. Idk if it's broken, but not much feels worse than finally dealing with a big menace and it being brought back next turn by a mouse with a scarf.

Personally, don't like it. It goes against anything in the previous generations you can never bring back a fainted Pokémon, once a Pokémon is gone it's gone. It seems uncompetitive or I can see it spiraling out of control since Pawmot isn't a bad Pokémon in general. But I don't think it deserves a ban as of yet, I'm indifferent at the moment. Too busy worrying about nastier mechanics such as Tera.

 

[alephgalactus]

It's been a few days- how do people feel about Pawmot/Revival Blessing? It's solidified itself as a gimmick to me, but a very very good gimmick if piloted even decently. Idk if it's broken, but not much feels worse than finally dealing with a big menace and it being brought back next turn by a mouse with a scarf.

It’s not competitive. It might be gimmicky, sure, but so was King’s Rock. Hell, so was Moody. Being able to bring back a Pokémon in the middle of the match is huge, and the opportunity cost of running isn’t very large because Pawmot is, though certainly not OU material without it, decent enough to hold its own outside of Revival Blessing (Rabsca can at the very least sponge a hit sometimes as well). I’m already just clicking forfeit when I see teams with Pawmot or Rabsca because I don’t want to deal with that bullshit. Besides this and all the points that everyone else has made about Revival Blessing, something about it just feels inherently icky to me as someone who’s studied game design. I can feel deep down in my bones that it can break EBC even if I can’t figure out how.

Get it as far away from competitive as possible.

 

[JoarAddamNessosin]

Ill be honest, from my perspective, banning hound instead of last respects was dumb, but its policy law so just yeah, but lets just stop discussing it, its basically beating a dead horse at this point

So, to not make this a 1 liner, i do have one thing to talk about, and its about present donphan, i havent actually tried him so this is pure theorymoning but looking at him and i do realize that he has some value of the table

1. He has less atack than great tusk but more than iron threads
2. has the same HP and defense as iron threads
3. has more special defense than tusk, but less than threads
4. Its the only one of the three with Ice shard (priority) meaning he has the easiest matchup of the three agaisnt air baloon Gholdengo and doesnt need to invest in speed with this trick
5. it has sturdy, meaning as long as rocks or chip damage are not up, he will never be OHKO
6. his pure ground typing, while not the best defensevly, is not weak to fairy and Psychic like tusk, and its not neutral to fire and weak to fighting and ground like threads

with this i have a theory set

Donphan @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Shard

Ice shard is the move that makes donphan work, ice shard does 5% to dengo, and then he gets 2 Hit ko with EQ, or, you can do 1 knock off and one eq, here you might think that why make 5% when i can just 2 shot him, well, if he is on low health, he can at least have one more attack and then dengo gets revenge killed more easily

Ice shard also means that can trip gholdengos with no HP investment, and then getting destroyed by eq

calcs

4 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 18-21 (4.7 - 5.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Donphan Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 114-136 (30.1 - 35.9%) -- 47.1% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 264-312 (69.8 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 288-339 (75 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (everything 2 hit ko tho)


4 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 264-312 (83.5 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 18-21 (5.6 - 6.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Donphan Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 114-136 (36 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 144-171 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (focus blast and shadow ball 4HKO)

what do you lads think

Honestly i love it, its does however make the choice between the 3 harder imo. Priority makes it fill a niche where it otherwise would be irrelevant. Stab eq + spin means that you can clean up late game if you have to. Priority ice means you can revenge the slew of grounds and dragons in the meta pretty okay. Ultimately though i think having priority isn't enough to give it the edge in OU to be slotted over either of the other 2 because its bulk+50base spd really puts it behind in the current meta.

Donphan

Donphan (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

Iron Treads

Iron Treads @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 240 HP / 64 Atk / 124 SpD / 80 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Volt Switch

Great Tusk

Great Tusk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 232 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 20 Spe
Serious Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Headlong Rush
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner

Theses 3 sets are all the "same" essentially. Little don being the only one with mono type+priority, treads being the fastest and tusk hitting the hardest unaided. I think little don is (hopefully joining my boi Fortress)probably going in UU being a little too slow with not quite enough bulk/atk to offset the low spd. Treads will probably be used the most for anti goldy+ potential for a BO set up mon. And Tusk will probably lean more towards defensive sets or maybe band cleaner? Im really loving the potential of all 3 tho being a nice little 3 circle vendiagram.

 

[alephgalactus]

Honestly i love it, its does however make the choice between the 3 harder imo. Priority makes it fill a niche where it otherwise would be irrelevant. Stab eq + spin means that you can clean up late game if you have to. Priority ice means you can revenge the slew of grounds and dragons in the meta pretty okay. Ultimately though i think having priority isn't enough to give it the edge in OU to be slotted over either of the other 2 because its bulk+50base spd really puts it behind in the current meta.

Donphan

Donphan (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

Iron Treads

Iron Treads @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 240 HP / 64 Atk / 124 SpD / 80 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Volt Switch

Great Tusk

Great Tusk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 232 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 20 Spe
Serious Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Headlong Rush
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner

Theses 3 sets are all the "same" essentially. Little don being the only one with mono type+priority, treads being the fastest and tusk hitting the hardest unaided. I think little don is (hopefully joining my boi Fortress)probably going in UU being a little too slow with not quite enough bulk/atk to offset the low spd. Treads will probably be used the most for anti goldy+ potential for a BO set up mon. And Tusk will probably lean more towards defensive sets or maybe band cleaner? Im really loving the potential of all 3 tho being a nice little 3 circle vendiagram.

Oh, if only XY could see us now, discussing the merit of using Donphan in OU without a shred of irony. Times really have changed.

 

[1LDK]

EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD

what are the 16 def eves for?

Oh, if only XY could see us now, discussing the merit of using Donphan in OU without a shred of irony. Times really have changed.

Donphan was ou in gen 5 tho °^° and just because the mon its old does not mean its bad, he has a niche
donphan chads corviknight bros keep losing lmaooo

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Why nobody has used this yet?

Great Tusk @ Booster Energy / Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Bulk Up
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin / Knock Off

With a Base Defense of 131, Great Tusk can just fire an Powerful Body Press, Bulk Up boosts its Attack and Defense.
This sets makes Great Tusk act as a Physical Wall. Protosynthesis boosts its Defense making it able to tank physical attacks such as Play Rough and more.
Run Leftovers if you have an Torkoal ally to support it with sun.

 

[alephgalactus]

Donphan was ou in gen 5 tho °^° and just because the mon its old does not mean its bad, he has a niche
donphan chads corviknight bros keep losing lmaooo

OU doesn’t automatically mean “good”. Donphan was infamous in Gens 5-6 for being noob bait, like Electivire in Gen 4 and Glaceon in every gen. I remember that C&C writers outright refused to give it an OU analysis for the longest time because everyone knew it didn’t belong there, and they even did a joke one for April Fools’ one year.

 

[zantaRay]

Why nobody has used this yet?

Great Tusk @ Booster Energy / Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Bulk Up
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner / Knock Off

With a Base Defense of 131, Great Tusk can just fire an Powerful Body Press, Bulk Up boosts its Attack and Defense.
This sets makes Great Tusk act as a Physical Wall. Protosynthesis boosts its Defense making it able to tank physical attacks such as Play Rough and more.
Run Leftovers if you have an Torkoal ally to support it with sun.

> Be me, bulk up great tusk
> Be not me, a Pokemon with SpA above 100
> Killed instantly

 

[JoarAddamNessosin]

what are the 16 def eves for?


Donphan was ou in gen 5 tho °^° and just because the mon its old does not mean its bad, he has a niche
donphan chads corviknight bros keep losing lmaooo

Putting them in speed seemed pointless to me and same for atk although a little less so, so def. Seemed the most useful although at 4 total points they really dont help hit any points i can think of so

Edit: unless you mean why not in hp and then its because odd number + divisible by 3 makes ~things~ happen to Hazzards

 

[JoarAddamNessosin]

> Be me, bulk up great tusk
> Be not me, a Pokemon with SpA above 100
> Killed instantly

Pretty much this, if you dont go full spd then you need the spdef investment because you cant defensevly check basically any special attacker

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Pretty much this, if you dont go full spd then you need the spdef investment because you cant defensevly check basically any special attacker

Yeah, basically Buzzwole but it's Ground and Fighting type insead.
Both Buzzwole and Great Tusk have 53 Base SpD and have the same base stat total.

 

[Suricata]

Why nobody has used this yet?

Great Tusk @ Booster Energy / Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Bulk Up
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner / Knock Off

With a Base Defense of 131, Great Tusk can just fire an Powerful Body Press, Bulk Up boosts its Attack and Defense.
This sets makes Great Tusk act as a Physical Wall. Protosynthesis boosts its Defense making it able to tank physical attacks such as Play Rough and more.
Run Leftovers if you have an Torkoal ally to support it with sun.

rapid spin could be much better than knock off or ice spinner for this set

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

rapid spin could be much better than knock off or ice spinner for this set

Great Tusk will be slightly blocked against Flying type pokemon, so Ice Spinner will hit hard those pokemon.

 

[Suricata]

Great Tusk will be slightly blocked against Flying type pokemon, so Ice Spinner will hit hard those pokemon.

no landorous, no tornadus, no zapdos. Only popular flying types are cor and dragonite. With bulk up u can beat dragon easily, no need for ice spinner.

 

[Kocbert]

Yeah, basically Buzzwole but it's Ground and Fighting type insead.
Both Buzzwole and Great Tusk have 53 Base SpD and have the same base stat total.

No one used bulk up buzzwole because its trash.

To stop this being a one liner what are everyone's thoughts on bronzong as a steath rock setter.

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Night Shade

Night shade can be replaced with anything really but press and protect are needed to hit dark types switching in and protects scouting is invaluable for its teammates.

A more specially defensive set might be good as a valiant switch in but I haven't tried it.

 

[zantaRay]

What niche are you trying to fill with it though? Bronzong's defensive profile isn't exaclty great at the moment, and stealth rock is super easy to fit on teams at the moment. Between the donphans, garchomp, ting lu, torkoal, glimmora, ttar, etc. we're not exactly hurting for good rocks users.

 

[Deathbringer7]

Has Choice Scarf Garchomp been explored yet? I feel it may be a decent option on offensive teams as a second cleaner in conjunction with something like Iron Valiant. It's speed tier is excellent with Scarf, outspeeding every unboosted pokemon as well as common choice scarfers Gholdengo and Chi Yu. It's good bulk and Stealth Rock resistance allow it to switch in, allowing for more proactive play than coming in after a KO. With Tera Fire and Tera Blast it can break past Corviknight in a pinch, with Liquidation acting as a good option for Great Tusk. Admittedly, it can be stone walled and used as setup fodder by Dragonite if it didn't choose it's Dragon STAB, and spamming Dragon moves may be risky with the prevalence of Valiant. Asides from that, I have heard that Corrosion Glimmora can use Mortal Spin vs Gholdengo and clear hazards? In a tier where there is a dearth of hazard removal, surely something like this is worth exploring. It even makes Corviknight hesitant to switch in as a poison can where it down fast. Please ignore this part if this is false. I have not tried it myself. On the topic of bans, I believe Espathra to be one of the most braindead pokemon to ever come into OU. It feels like an all baton pass chain in of itself. It's very straightforward to set up and can clean with minimal effort, I've seen players resort to Tera Dark Clodsire in an effort to stop it. I believe to be the most outrageously negative aspect in the tier and I believe action on it should be taken.

 

[Dynamo_Man]

Why is my fucking venomoth thread not showing up?

 

[Talpr0ne]

I have heard that Corrosion Glimmora can use Mortal Spin vs Gholdengo and clear hazards?

You heard wrong.

 

[Deathbringer7]

You heard wrong.

Thank you for clearing that up. Apologies for not checking first hand.

 

[Finchinator]

Why is my fucking venomoth thread not showing up?

Perhaps because you didn’t receive approval

 

[Yarvy]

Commenting on sylveon because I think it’s incredibly underrated right now anyways, I managed to peak top 100 with it a week ago and I’m currently hovering around 1600. There’s mainly 2 sets I’ve been using, the classic utility set with hyper voice, wish, protect, calm mind and max hp/def evs. tera type is something defensive usually, I prefer poison so I don’t get stopped by toxic during CM sweeps. The big problem with that set is that it struggles against gholdengo, which is a problem when he’s the most used Pokémon in the tier, and that set lends itself to more passive play anyways, which just isn’t great right now. I do think if you want a wish passer sylveon is the best one but wish passing is in a rough spot as long as hazard stack continues to dominate.

That leads me to the second set I’ve been using these past few days to great success. Modest AV sylveon with some hp, some defense, max sp-atk and hyper voice, shadow ball, psyshock, and hyper beam. Im not joking when I say this set checks or counters 90% of the top Pokémon right now, only really losing to steel types like corvi, kingambit, and scizor. Plus, kingambit and scizor really do not appreciate taking a hyper voice to the face on switch. Goldie dies to hyper voice + shadow ball with any hazards up and you’re guaranteed to live make it rain, even from a max sp atk specs gholdengo. It also makes a great anti-lead, able to force the opponent onto the backfoot and rack up damage before it goes down. Notable Pokémon that you win against off the top of my head, in no particular order.

• Glimmora: can’t kill you in 2 sludge bombs without a lucky poison but you can kill him in 2 psyshocks, and you won’t trigger toxic spikes while do
• Grimmsnarl: dies to 2 hyper voice with light screen up and gets ohkod without it, so he either dies for both screens or is forced out with only one
• Garchomp: gets ohkod by hyper voice, and earthquake does negligible damage in return
• Great tusks: can’t ohko you without booster energy or sun, both of which are telegraphed, and he easily gets killed by hyper voice.
• Chien pao: does negligible damage to you and dies to hyper voice.
• Chi yu: set dependant, scarf 3hkos you and hyper voice 2hkos. Specs will 2hko you, but you can employ the forbidden hyper beam tech for an 80% chance to ohko him first
• Dragonite: 3hkos you with no boosts and 2hkos you with +1. hyper voice 2hkos from full, or ohkos if multiscale is broken. If you come in on the dragon dance, tera fairy hyper beam ohkos him through multiscale, which usually isn’t worth it but its still funny.
• Iron valiant: already mentioned, but she can’t remotely scratch you and dies to a single hyper voice
• Espathra: set dependent if you’re switching in but you’ll always win if you both start from neutral. Hyper voice hits behind substitute so she can’t even stall
• Cyclizar. Hyper voice hitting behind subs means you can kill pretty much anything that switches in except for the aforementioned steels.
• Ting-lu: hyper voice is a 3hko because he’s a tanky bastard, but that’s better then a lot of other Pokémon and he can’t do much back.
• Annihilape: gets 2hkod by hyper voice and can’t touch you unless he’s already eaten multiple hits. Bonus points if he tries to taunt you first for no reason
• Iron moth: can’t ohko you but gets ohkod by psyshock
• Dondozo: takes too much damage from hyper voice to set up with rest and sleep talk.
• Skeledirge. Set dependent but shadow ball will 2hko all but the most specially bulky skeledirges.
  
  
  
  
  And so on, there’s a lot of more niche mons like hands and baxcalibur you do great against as well. I’d definitely recommend at least giving it a shot, especially if the cheese stick gets banned.

What’s a good EV spread for the AV set?