Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Player J]

For the record, I wish to clear up some confusion.
Glaceon isn’t a Bad Pokémon.
Glaceon is a Great Pokémon.

The issue is Players don’t have a need for Glaceon at the moment.
This is the reason Glaceon isn’t being used.

Glaceon is a Bulky Ice type - Wall Breaker
Glaceon likes Breaking Through Wall Pokémon which are:
- Dragon Type
- Flying Type
- Grass Type
- Ground Type

Their are 40 Pokémon in OU.
Out of 40 only 3 Pokémon are Pokémon which Glaceon can be used to Break through.

Do you see the Problem?
Glaceon is a Great Pokémon, but Players are not using Glaceon because they don’t need a Bulky Ice Type Wall Breaker.
Players need a Bulky Water Type Wall Breaker or Bulky Fire Type Wall Breaker.

What people need can change based on what Pokémon are available.
This is why I don’t want people to get confused.

What determines whether or not a Pokémon is good or bad has to do with the Pokémon‘s Base Stats + Move Pool.
Glaceon stats are Great.
Glaceon move pool is Good.

Overall, Glaceon is a Great Pokémon.
The real tragedy is a lack of Dragon, Flying, Grass, & Ground types.
The Game released a bunch of Ghost, Dark, & Fighting types this Gen 9 season.

That’s all.

 

[gigi44t44]

It’d be a great defensive Pokémon if it didn’t have such a garbage defensive typing, especially in the current meta. U-Turn is in contention for the worst single move to be 4x weak to, it can’t touch Breloom, Chi-Yu says “It’s Chi-Yuin’ time” and Chi-Yus all over it, Iron Valiant eats it alive, and Volcarona does to it exactly what you’d expect a pyrokinetic moth to do to a pile of leaves. It also doesn’t have enough of a damage output to break through the Shed Tail Subs running around everywhere, no reliable recovery (although Leech Seed + Giga Drain can serve it well enough with the bulk it has), and defensive playstyles aren’t really viable right now in general. Even with all that, if it didn’t have the secret Ability “Defensive Typing of Ruin” (effect: lowers its own usage by 25%), it’d have a lot more of a presence in the meta.

i say breloom to be at least A RANK
my set i use is BRELOOM
TERA FIGHTING
ABILITY TECHNICIAN@ LIFE ORB
ADAMANT 252 ATK 252 SPEED 4 DEF
SPORE
MACH PUCH
SWORD DANCE
BULLET SEED/BULLDOZE
the only real counters are flying types and (amoongus dragapult goldengo skeledirge )but they dont exist lol and corviknight(except dragonnite) doesn't count as it can be spored then sd into mach
it cam beat all the bulky mons ting lu dodonzo closire also tera figgting into mach is very powerful
basically its fast enough to spore defensive mons and sword damce up or punish faster mons with priority

 

[alephgalactus]

For the record, I wish to clear up some confusion.
Glaceon isn’t a Bad Pokémon.
Glaceon is a Great Pokémon.

The issue is Players don’t have a need for Glaceon at the moment.
This is the reason Glaceon isn’t being used.

Glaceon is a Bulky Ice type - Wall Breaker
Glaceon likes Breaking Through Wall Pokémon which are:
- Dragon Type
- Flying Type
- Grass Type
- Ground Type

Their are 40 Pokémon in OU.
Out of 40 only 3 Pokémon are Pokémon which Glaceon can be used to Break through.

Do you see the Problem?
Glaceon is a Great Pokémon, but Players are not using Glaceon because they don’t need a Bulky Ice Type Wall Breaker.
Players need a Bulky Water Type Wall Breaker or Bulky Fire Type Wall Breaker.

What people need can change based on what Pokémon are available.
This is why I don’t want people to get confused.

What determines whether or not a Pokémon is good or bad has to do with the Pokémon‘s Base Stats + Move Pool.
Glaceon stats are Great.
Glaceon move pool is Good.

Overall, Glaceon is a Great Pokémon.
The real tragedy is a lack of Dragon, Flying, Grass, & Ground types.
The Game released a bunch of Ghost, Dark, & Fighting types this Gen 9 season.

That’s all.

There’s a lot to unpack here so I’m just going to toss out the whole suitcase. Glaceon’s bad and nothing will ever change that. It’s a noobtrap mon like Gen 4 Electivire or Gen 5-6 Donphan.

the only real counters are flying types and (amoongus dragapult goldengo skeledirge )but they dont exist lol

Ah yes, Gholdengo and Dragapult, famous for their lack of representation in the current meta.

 

[Player J]

*Wo-Chien is the only Peril that doesn't appear in the viability rank

What's the problem of Wo-Chien? For what I've seen of it, I find it a very good defensive Pokemon

Exactly, Wo-Chien is insane.
I already told People how good Wo-Chien is defensively, but they didn’t listen.

All you can do is show people the door.
If they chose to not open it, Their is nothing we can do.

 

[1LDK]

Exactly, Wo-Chien is insane.
I already told People how good Wo-Chien is defensively, but they didn’t listen.

All you can do is show people the door.
If they chose to not open it, Their is nothing we can do.

to be honest, i have tried wo chien, it does have potential, but not in this meta, all his move while good are stabs, and reducing attack while excelent, it doesnt matter because Chi Yu is so demanding right now on the team builder so everyone is running spedef or bulky sets, and also all chinese legendarys are bad teammates because they stack fighting weaknesses, and fighting type stack is pretty good in this meta, once Chi yu gets banned, i can see Wo chien becoming a surprise pick, but he cant even wall Acrobatics Moon, something that Dondozo (a better pure wall) does better (for reference, not even a +2 Moon cant scratch him)

 

[Player J]

There’s a lot to unpack here so I’m just going to toss out the whole suitcase. Glaceon’s bad and nothing will ever change that. It’s a noobtrap mon like Gen 4 Electivire or Gen 5-6 Donphan.

Ah yes, Gholdengo and Dragapult, famous for their lack of representation in the current meta.

Glaceon @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 252 HP
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish / Rest
- Protect / Sub.
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam

The rest of Glaceon EV’s would depend on who I would use her to fight against.
I guess I am just bad player because I see nothing about the above set that makes me think Glaceon is bad.

Glaceon Stats:
65 HP - 60 ATK - 110 DEF - 130 SPA - 95 SPD - 65 SPE - 525 BST

Glaceon Offensive Stats:
60 ATK - 130 SPA - 65 SPE

Glaceon Atk stat is irrelevant because I will not use her a Psychical Attacker
Glaceon SPA stat is perfect because I don’t need to invest EV’s to do decent Special Attacks
Glaceon SPE stat is irrelevant because I will use her as Wall Breaker and Walls are generally slower vs. 65 speed.

Glaceon Defensive Stats:
65 HP - 110 DEF - 95 SPD

Glaceon HP stat is worry some because she doesn’t have enough HP to considered a Wall.
Glaceon will require some careful piloting.
Glaceon Def & SPD over/near 100 lets her tank several hits.

In Summary: We can come to the following conclusion’s
Glaceon has the Special Attack power to crush enemy Pokémon, but lacks the Speed to be used on a Hyper Offense Team.
Glaceon is no Flutter Mane.

Glaceon has the Def & Special Def to withstand enemy Pokémon hits, but lacks the Health to be used on a Hyper Defense Team.
Glaceon is no Blissey.

Glaceon would be more like a Curse Dondozo.
The only difference is Dondozo is Water Type + Physical Attacker

I did my independent evaluation of Glaceon.
Nothing about Glaceon leads me to believe she is a noob trap.

 

[Red Raven]

I did my independent evaluation of Glaceon.
Nothing about Glaceon leads me to believe she is a noob trap.

Except the fact that Glaceon literally has the worst defensive typing of all given that ice only resists ice not to mention the set you provided doesn't have boots which means stealth rocks makes its life miserable. There's also a yellow thing in the game that makes it very difficult to remove hazards. If you really think Glaceon is good, you should provide replays in which it actually does something useful that sets it apart from its competition and make sure it's in the mid ladder range since that's where most players are. Altho I'm not sure if anyone has reached like 1800+ elo on the ladder already since we're still like three weeks into the generation

 

[Finchinator]

go a page without mentioning glaceon challenge

 

[Bold School]

Glaceon @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 252 HP
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish / Rest
- Protect / Sub.
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam


The rest of Glaceon EV’s would depend on who I would use her to fight against.
I guess I am just bad player because I see nothing about the above set that makes me think Glaceon is bad.

You didn't complete the set and you are trying to tell us it's good? What is even the Tera type? If you are only going one attacking move, why not go Freeze Dry to at least hit waters? Rest on this set basically makes it setup fodder and regular fodder. There are just so many problems I can't even get to them all without writing an essay.

In Summary: We can come to the following conclusion’s
Glaceon has the Special Attack power to crush enemy Pokémon, but lacks the Speed to be used on a Hyper Offense Team.
Glaceon is no Flutter Mane.

Glaceon has the Def & Special Def to withstand enemy Pokémon hits, but lacks the Health to be used on a Hyper Defense Team.
Glaceon is no Blissey.

Glaceon would be more like a Curse Dondozo.
The only difference is Dondozo is Water Type + Physical Attacker

I did my independent evaluation of Glaceon.
Nothing about Glaceon leads me to believe she is a noob trap.

This is hilarious. My gripes with your analyses aside, do you really have to spell out that Glaceon isn't Flutter Mane or Blissey?

Comparing it to Dondozo, which has a great typing, massive HP pool, and Unaware is certainly something. Ice is a horrible defensive typing. You could fix that with Tera, but then you are wasting your Tera.

If you wanted a slow ice type to take physical attacks, run Avalugg.

If you wanted a slow ice type to take special attacks, you would be better trying something like Frosmoth which at least has Ice Scales and Quiver Dance. I don't know if that's viable, either. But it would at least be better than Glaceon.

 

[1LDK]

The think is, with glaceon, her typing is bad, sure you can use tera but wasting your tera on glaceon does not sound appealing, and sure you can use it with snow to make her defences go up but thats a limiting playstyle, as a Cleric that can deffend himself, is outclassed by Sylveon and Umbreon, both with overall better qualitys for the meta, calm mind is cute but takes too much, sure its probably an insane Dondozo counter, but theres better mons for that, im not saying glaceon cant have a niche ( chads we stay winning) but when the VR comes out, the glaceon bros are really gonna have to do the impossible

also i wanna say that im planning on putting on the VR, im aware that the job is gonna be though but im confident that i can do it (and that means im saving replays like crazy)

 

[RoyalDispenser]

go a page without mentioning glaceon challenge

Easy.

...wait fuck I quoted a post mentioning it

 

[Bold School]

Easy.

...wait fuck I quoted a post mentioning it

It's ok, this page was ruined anyway. It starts for real next page. The next page is no Flutter Mane, though.

 

[Redwings1340]

I've been looking through UU to find some way to effectively remove hazards, and feel like toedscruel might be being overlooked as an anti-metagame option. Its a rapid spinner with great special defense and STAB earth power, allowing it to beat Gholdengo one on one. Base 100 speed and fire terra can allow it to speed tie Chi-yu and beat it 1v1 with any entry hazard damage. It also outspeeds Great Tusk, resisting headlong rush and dealing a ton of damage with its grass stab. Toedscruel can also beat Dondozo 1v1 assuming neither of them terra, while also having spore for extra utility. I've been using a fast, special attacking stat of giga drain, earth power, rapid spin, and spore, but it also could run things like terra blast (fire), knock off, leech seed, leaf storm, spikes, and toxic spikes.

Its not a perfect pokemon by any means. Toedscruel does less damage than you'd like, its typing leaves it super weak to ice and fire moves, and its not going to take on any physical attackers it doesn't resist. Its also gets destroyed by Annihilape unless you can force it to terra in to a water type, and its not going to sweep teams by itself. However, I think it might be one of the better rapid spinners in the current meta, and probably deserves a spot as a D tier pokemon right now.

 

[Bold School]

I've been looking through UU to find some way to effectively remove hazards, and feel like toedscruel might be being overlooked as an anti-metagame option. Its a rapid spinner with great special defense and STAB earth power, allowing it to beat Gholdengo one on one. Base 100 speed and fire terra can allow it to speed tie Chi-yu and beat it 1v1 with any entry hazard damage. It also outspeeds Great Tusk, resisting headlong rush and dealing a ton of damage with its grass stab. Toedscruel can also beat Dondozo 1v1 assuming neither of them terra, while also having spore for extra utility. I've been using a fast, special attacking stat of giga drain, earth power, rapid spin, and spore, but it also could run things like terra blast (fire), knock off, leech seed, leaf storm, spikes, and toxic spikes.

Its not a perfect pokemon by any means. Toedscruel does less damage than you'd like, its typing leaves it super weak to ice and fire moves, and its not going to take on any physical attackers it doesn't resist. Its also gets destroyed by Annihilape unless you can force it to terra in to a water type, and its not going to sweep teams by itself. However, I think it might be one of the better rapid spinners in the current meta, and probably deserves a spot as a D tier pokemon right now.

Can confirm. Toedscruel is the only thing that can spore Garganacl and Gholdengo and it hits a lot of things with Earth Power. It can be a difficult pokemon for opponents to switch into. It gets Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Rapid Spin. It has a lot of utility. But you have to put it on the right team.

 

[658Greninja]

What has everyone used to deal with Iron Moth? Very underrated mon. Booster Energy nukes through almost everything and its coverage is phenomenal

 

[alephgalactus]

also i wanna say that im planning on putting on the VR, im aware that the job is gonna be though but im confident that i can do it (and that means im saving replays like crazy)

Good luck to you on that one. I think replays might be sufficient for nearly any other Pokémon, but not Donphan specifically. Donphan was a meme for two gens because of how big of a noobtrap it was. Even if it does have competitive merit this gen (which I doubt, because it’s directly outclassed by two other versions of itself), you’re gonna need an overwhelming amount of evidence to break through the existing not-exactly-unearned bias against ranking Donphan.

I did my independent evaluation of Glaceon.
Nothing about Glaceon leads me to believe she is a noob trap.

Ya got trapped, bud. (And statistically, most Glaceon are male.)

 

[awyp]

What has everyone used to deal with Iron Moth? Very underrated mon. Booster Energy nukes through almost everything and its coverage is phenomenal

For me I would say special defensive Clodsire / Toxapex does a decent job (as long as it's not running Psychic), I would say if it is running Psychic I would go with Tyranitar.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

I did my independent evaluation of Glaceon.
Nothing about Glaceon leads me to believe she is a noob trap.

C'mon guys, if you're going to be silly at least be self aware

 

[Magcargo]

Is it a hot take to think that Grimmsnarl is a bit busted currently? Have played a decent # of games, but not too high up on the ladder yet, so take my opinion w/ a grain of salt, but the only viable counterplay to grimm that I've done so far is setup to +2 / +4 with Gholdengo / Kingambit / Chiyuu as grimm goes for Screens & abuse the momentum loss they have by switching girmm out by either taking out as many mons as possible or making it more difficult for them to setup w/ their setup sweepers or Cyclizar. Now, this has worked so far, but it feels like a fluke and something the Grimmsnarl player can easily adapt to. Landing a Defog is also another option, but grimm's team comps make it a bit harder to land that since they usually pack a Gholdengo or Anihilape that makes using Defog a bit risky.

An annoying element about Grimm compared to other possible screen setters is that OHKOing it is almost impossible, esp due to priority Screens, so its bound to get off both Screens in most cases. In one match I played, Specs Iron Valiant wasn't even guaranteed a 2HKO w/ Moonblast (tbf I landed an unfavorable range, but its still illustrates the point that the mon is bulky af).

 

[alephgalactus]

Is it a hot take to think that Grimmsnarl is a bit busted currently? Have played a decent # of games, but not too high up on the ladder yet, so take my opinion w/ a grain of salt, but the only viable counterplay to grimm that I've done so far is setup to +2 / +4 with Gholdengo / Kingambit / Chiyuu as grimm goes for Screens & abuse the momentum loss they have by switching girmm out by either taking out as many mons as possible or making it more difficult for them to setup w/ their setup sweepers or Cyclizar. Now, this has worked so far, but it feels like a fluke and something the Grimmsnarl player can easily adapt to. Landing a Defog is also another option, but grimm's team comps make it a bit harder to land that since they usually pack a Gholdengo or Anihilape that makes using Defog a bit risky.

I agree that Grimmsnarl is a problem and should probably go. Prankster Screens was acceptable last gen, but Parting Shot and the general lack of good Defoggers put it over the edge (Gholdengo helps, but I personally believe Grimm would still be too strong even with Gholdengo gone). I’ve seen people running Brick Break and Paldean Tauros because Screens are so prevalent now, and neither of those are exactly viable outside of breaking Screens. Hell, I myself experimented with Clear Amulet trappers to block Parting Shot, which worked but was basically a wasted teamslot against pretty much anything else.

 

[Finchinator]

I do not think Grimmsnarl is problematic so much as it amplifies a group of overly-problematic Pokemon that exist in the current metagame. I feel Screens support Grimmsnarl on HO with all it currently has can be good, but not broken, in a metagame surrounded by good, but not broken, tools. And we simply are not in that metagame state yet, so it seems like the whole archetype is too much to handle when the root of the problem is not Grimmsnarl, but rather Chi-Yu, Annihilape, Espathra, etc.

 

[alephgalactus]

I do not think Grimmsnarl is problematic so much as it amplifies a group of overly-problematic Pokemon that exist in the current metagame. I feel Screens support Grimmsnarl on HO with all it currently has can be good, but not broken, in a metagame surrounded by good, but not broken, tools. And we simply are not in that metagame state yet, so it seems like the whole archetype is too much to handle when the root of the problem is not Grimmsnarl, but rather Chi-Yu, Annihilape, Espathra, etc.

You have a point. Grimmsnarl will probably be a lot less of an issue when viable playstyles crop up that aren’t HO and methods of dealing damage besides just attacking and setting hazards start actually existing again. All we have right now in terms of non-attack/hazard damage is Salt Cure and a handful of Toxic/Leech Seed users, and those can’t do anything if Substitute’s up, which it basically always is because of Shed Tail, so most strategies boil down to some form of “attack attack attack (after setting up about 10 different kinds of nonsense)”, which has a tough time dealing with Screens. I didn’t really think of it that way.

On the other hand, if Dragapult gets banned—which I believe to be a near certainty if Tera stays—the meta loses its single Infiltrator user and Screens become more annoying.

 

[Vengeance417]

Tauros-Paldea-Fire @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Raging Bull
- Body Press
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp

Been using aveyon's team with Paldean Fire-type Tauros in the OU Bazaar thread and I'm having a lot of fun using this Pokemon. PhysDef + Intimidate + Wisp lets it be a very hard stop to Chien-Pao, and can annoy Ting-Lu, the Paradox Donphans, and Garchomp with Tera Flying. Wisping them on the switch alone gives you a much better time vs them even without Tera Flying. Tera Normal Dragonite hates you, too, with Body Press becoming Super Effective vs it as well as the vulnerability vs Wisp. Raging Bull is also great vs the many Screens teams running around while hurting Gholdengo and Corviknight. Fire Tauros serves as a nice emergency check to Chi-Yu, too, since it resists both its STABs and OHKOes in return with Body Press, only really needing to fear something like Psychic or Modest Tera Fire Specs Overheat or Fire Blast.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

I just realized, the only electric type in OU is Iron Hands. Last gen only had 4 pokemon in OU. I guess the Paradoxical Donphans make OU kinda unhospitable for electric types, hey? As previously mentioned in the thread, fighting spam seems to be good this gen, hence Iron Hands usage.

 

[alephgalactus]

Tera Type: Flying

Well, they do say Red Bull gives you wings.

To not make this a stupid joke one-liner:

I just realized, the only electric type in OU is Iron Hands. Last gen only had 4 pokemon in OU. I guess the Paradoxical Donphans make OU kinda unhospitable for electric types, hey? As previously mentioned in the thread, fighting spam seems to be good this gen, hence Iron Hands usage.

It probably has something to do with the most common Pokémon in the meta being a Ground-type, just like last gen. And the gen before that. And the gen before that.

Other potential reasons:

• Electric is the fifth rarest typing in general (only Ghost, Fairy, Dragon and Ice are rarer), so there’s never really been a huge population of good Electric-types by merit of there just not being that many Electric-types.
• Earthquake’s really good even on non-Grounds.
• Ground is a fantastic defensive and offensive type (I’d even go so far as to say the best single type), so it’s pretty easy for strong Ground-types to become staples in whatever tiers they find themselves in.
• A lot of Ground-types got Spikes this gen, which makes Electric-types’ lives even harder.
• The Paradox Donphans were already mentioned, but there’s also Garchomp, which does the same things it’s been doing for the past fifteen years; Clodsire, one of the only good mons that doesn’t fit on HO; and Ting-Lu, which is immune to Electric normally and also to every other type if it gets behind SubScreens.
• There are also a bunch of good Grass-types and Dragon-types right now.