Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]

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You're going to have to sell A- Amoongus to me. In the Palafin meta, sure. But in the current meta? What does it even check? Breloom? The mon in a rank below it? It offers a free switch in to Gholdengo, the sole S rank mon. Spore is good, but I'd sooner use Toedscruel than Amoongus. At least Toedscruel can spore Gholdengo.
 
Hey Finch thanks for doing this I just have two questions and that is why is Iron Moth and especially Iron Jugulis rated so highly? I don't know to much about Iron Moth so I'm just looking for an explanation as to what makes it so good but I don't get Iron Jugulis at all. Iron Jugulis is absolutely terrible and doesn't fill the role of a fast dark type special attacker when stuff like Chi-Yu exists. Hurricane and Air Slash are terrible stab options and it doesn't even get any good forms of boosting like nasty plot except for booster energy I guess. What sets does it even run?
 
You're going to have to sell A- Amoongus to me. In the Palafin meta, sure. But in the current meta? What does it even check? Breloom? The mon in a rank below it? It offers a free switch in to Gholdengo, the sole S rank mon. Spore is good, but I'd sooner use Toedscruel than Amoongus. At least Toedscruel can spore Gholdengo.
I can't speak for its viability too much, but I will say that it can be annoying for Annihilape and Iron Valiant to face if you don't have Taunt or a Psychic move respectively. Additionally, Spore is potent vs teams that aren't running Gholdengo, especially in this metagame due to how strong the threats are. I don't run Gholdengo, as I don't like to win, and facing Amoonguss is a nightmare.
 
Threw together my own viability rankings for fun last week and most of the mons here are pretty close to what I had them. There were 3 that were quite different so wanted to get some thoughts on them

Ceruledge - Good offensive typing, decent enough special bulk, solid coverage in CC and an A+ stab tier move in bitter blade, which alone seems enough to bump it up for me. The bulk up/taunt/bug tera set is hard to counter once it gets going when paired with bitter blade and it can can invalidate a lot of sun teams which are everywhere. Had this in B on my own rankings.

Scream Tail - Really fat mon that can tank most any one hit, seems like the best wish passer in the tier, can do fast encores if needed or set rocks. Admittedly doesn't have much offensive presence but not used for that. Had this in B+ as well.

Gyarados - Admittedly haven't used or seen much Gyarados but I don't really see what it brings to the table to make it B-, doesn't have strong stab, it's physical coverage is still non existent and even if it gets off a DD its still not particularly fast or strong enough to really hurt. Quaval is a better Moxie user and Fire Tauros is a better intimidator. Had this as D

Cheers
 
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I'm a bit sad to see Hydreigon in C, especially since its, in my opinion, much weaker paradox form Iron Jugulis is in a higher rank. I've been using a set with Nasty plot, Draco meteor, Dark pulse and Tera blast with tera poison, and it puts in a lot of work. It can actually beat the unaware mons a lot of the times because they ignore draco drops and tera poison catches valiant trying to revenge kill it. It also has a typing that resists both of Chi Yu's STABs, and while it isn't close to a switchin, it can beat Chi Yu 1v1. In my opinion it belongs higher over stuff like Masquerain, Iron Thorns etc. Anyways great list I agree with most of the choices.
 
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You're going to have to sell A- Amoongus to me. In the Palafin meta, sure. But in the current meta? What does it even check? Breloom? The mon in a rank below it? It offers a free switch in to Gholdengo, the sole S rank mon. Spore is good, but I'd sooner use Toedscruel than Amoongus. At least Toedscruel can spore Gholdengo.
Amoonguss @ Malicious Armor
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Copycat
- Role Play
- Mimic
- Transform
Amonguss doesn’t actually lose that hard to Gholdengo because of Stomping Tantrum, which takes a decent chunk off of the cheese man.
He’s honestly just a really solid Defensive Tera option because of the raw number of slow boosters we have in the tier which he can somewhat blank effectively with Spore or Clear Smog, such as Annihilape, Dondozo, Espathra and sometimes even Dragonite. What he offers honestly isn’t too flashy, but he is definitely more consistent than a lot of things below him. Oh and he also soaks up TSpikes. Whether he is A- worthy is debatable, but our pool of mons is just really limited at the moment that it’s reasonable that he’s in the top 1/3.

Gyarados - Admittedly haven't used or seen much Gyarados but I don't really see what it brings to the table to make it B-, doesn't have strong stab, it's physical coverage is still non existent and even if it gets off a DD its still not particularly fast or strong enough to really hurt. Quaval is a better Moxie user and Tauros is a better intimidator.
I have been using Gyarados from day 2 this Gen and he’s just not bad. A fully defensive set used to be very reliable for taking on Palafin, but transitioned into a Taunt DD set with Intimidate after the stupid fish got banned.
Against faster teams he works as an Intimidate + Taunt support, and against slower teams he is one of the few that breaks through Unaware cores thanks to Taunt. There are times where he fails to break through stuff, but rarely does he feel like deadweight thanks to the raw utility of Taunt + Intimidate and a very good matchup into top dogs like Ting-Lu and Tusk. He is admittedly very reliant on Tera for coverage though.
Really glad he started in B-, because I was ready to argue to the death out if he started anywhere below that.
 
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I'm wondering why Forretress isn't even included in any tier. Hazards seem to be very powerful this generation with already hazard weak pokemon and some that terastallize into hazard weak types.

Forretress brings a lot of solid moves to the table: stealth rock, spikes, toxic spikes, rapid spin, gyro ball, volt switch, and good old explosion. It also brings a typing that resists or neutrals things that hit it's competition for super, while really only having the one glaring weakness. Yes losing access to custap berry hurts, but there are many other options. Not to mention the elephant in the room that is Ferrothorn not being in.

I cannot truly say where it should be tiered, but what it brings to the table in this format this generation deserves a closer look.
 
I'm wondering why Forretress isn't even included in any tier. Hazards seem to be very powerful this generation with already hazard weak pokemon and some that terastallize into hazard weak types.

Forretress brings a lot of solid moves to the table: stealth rock, spikes, toxic spikes, rapid spin, gyro ball, volt switch, and good old explosion. It also brings a typing that resists or neutrals things that hit it's competition for super, while really only having the one glaring weakness. Yes losing access to custap berry hurts, but there are many other options. Not to mention the elephant in the room that is Ferrothorn not being in.

I cannot truly say where it should be tiered, but what it brings to the table in this format this generation deserves a closer look.
Forretress is not too bad but it has several glaring issues.
First off, it lacks in both damage and recovery, making it very prone to being worn down quickly in a meta as hard hitting as this one.
Second, it's a spinner that loses to Gholdengo, so it cannot spin. The Donphans are much better in that role (Iron Treads has Volt Switch AND Knock Off too)
To top it all off, access to every hazards is nice but you are better off having Spikes or Rocks on something like either Chomp who's "fast" and hits hard or Ting Lu who is bulkier and actually checks top threats such as Dragapult.
It is both outclassed by better mons and has basically no niche.
 
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Forretress is not too bad but it has several glaring issues.
First off, it lacks in both damage and recovery, making it very prone to being worn down quickly in a meta as hard hitting as this one.
Second, it's a spinner that hard loses to Gholdengo, so it cannot spin. The Donphans are much better in that role (Iron Treads has Volt Switch AND Knock Off too)
To top it all off, access to every hazards is nice but you are better off having Spikes or Rocks on something like either Chomp who's "fast" and hits hard or Ting Lu who has Recover and even better bulk.
It is both outclassed by better mons and has basically no niche.
Ting-Lu doesn't have Recover though. The rest of your post is fine. I would add Clodsire and Gastrodon as examples of Mons with both Rocks and Spikes, though they have troubles fitting both of them + Recover.
 
Ting-Lu doesn't have Recover though. The rest of your post is fine. I would add Clodsire and Gastrodon as examples of Mons with both Rocks and Spikes, though they have troubles fitting both of them + Recover.
Fixed the Recover part. Indeed, Gastrodon is a great consideration I did not think of.
 
Why is Charizard ranked? Even after Solar Power, it’s still weaker than Chi-Yu. I would imagine it’s the ability to Tera Fire while still retaining coverage for Tyranitar and having a spikes immunity and potentially being a secondary breaker for sun teams, but even then the reliance on sun, prediction / accuracy reliance and Solar Power damage make it much worse overall. Is there something I’m missing here?

Edit: Just realized Chi-Yu doesn’t get Solar Beam either so I can kinda see how Charizard has a niche against some bulky mons that are weak to Grass other than Tyranitar as well, but in general they don’t handle Chi-Yu’s attacks well either.
 
Why is Charizard ranked? Even after Solar Power, it’s still weaker than Chi-Yu. I would imagine it’s the ability to Tera Fire while still retaining coverage for Tyranitar and having a spikes immunity and potentially being a secondary breaker for sun teams, but even then the reliance on sun, prediction / accuracy reliance and Solar Power damage make it much worse overall. Is there something I’m missing here?

Edit: Just realized Chi-Yu doesn’t get Solar Beam either so I can kinda see how Charizard has a niche against some bulky mons that are weak to Grass other than Tyranitar as well, but in general they don’t handle Chi-Yu’s attacks well either.
There are not many Mons immune to Ground. Charizard is one. Also, while Chi-Yu is better, you can use both in the same team, though covering them will be hard.
 
You're going to have to sell A- Amoongus to me. In the Palafin meta, sure. But in the current meta? What does it even check? Breloom? The mon in a rank below it? It offers a free switch in to Gholdengo, the sole S rank mon. Spore is good, but I'd sooner use Toedscruel than Amoongus. At least Toedscruel can spore Gholdengo.
Amoongus is good and can reliably deal with a lot of popular picks and threats right now.
Out walls popular picks like Dozo, Clodsire, Toxapex, Garg even while afflicted with salt cure and also... Toedscruel. You can toxic toedscruel and he cant do anything to you.
Spore is a super good move in general which can get you free switches, force a switch or hit something else switching in, shutting that pokemon down for atleast a turn, most of the time 2+.
With clear smog stab u can hit fairy types which is a super popular tera type as well and stop sweepers from boosting. Yes gholdengo beats it but amoongus's role is not to beat Gholdengo.
Amoongus Posion typing lets him get rid of toxic spike.
Also Toedscurels spore and all of its other status moves go last making his speed stat almost worthless in singles.
 
Why is Iron Jugulis in B-? I don’t think I’ve ever seen this thing do anything after the first day. Coverage is nice and all, but I’m legitimately curious as to why this thing is above Scovillian and Masquerain, which both have actual niches in the meta. Jugulis, imo, does not.
 
Why is Iron Jugulis in B-? I don’t think I’ve ever seen this thing do anything after the first day. Coverage is nice and all, but I’m legitimately curious as to why this thing is above Scovillian and Masquerain, which both have actual niches in the meta. Jugulis, imo, does not.
The fact that it is underutilized does not mean it's bad by any means. It's still a decently fast mon that has very little switchins outside of huge special sponges.
 
I believe that spidops deserves to be somewhere on the list(although I don't know where,probably on the low tiers.).

spidops is at this moment the single best sticky web setter.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1741340934

its stats are not as bad as they look.
its bulk sometimes lets it survive survive some attacks with enough investment. and pure bug typying isn't bad defensively.

this pokemon's access to circle throw allow it to punish the enemy setup users (unless if they use they use substitute), the access to the move silk trap sometimes lets it slow down the opponents who chose to stay instead of switching.
on top of that it has access to u-turn,meaning that its low speed is a blessing in disguise.

sure it may become unviable when new sticky web setters get introduced but at this moment it deserves to be on the viability list.
there are people on youtube saying that it is actually good.

I know that some players also run first impression, I am not saying that they are wrong,but I don't think that this move is that good on spidops.
the item focus sash lets it survive a hit.

EDIT: I want to add that it is certainly better than rabsca which is pure trash but somehow made it in lowest tier.
 
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I believe that spidops deserves to be somewhere on the list(although I don't know where,probably on the low tiers.).

spidops is at this moment the single best sticky web setter.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1741340934

its stats are not as bad as they look.
its bulk sometimes lets it survive survive some attacks with enough investment. and pure bug typying isn't bad defensively.

this pokemon's access to circle throw allow it to punish the enemy setup users (unless if they use they use substitute), the access to the move silk trap sometimes lets it slow down the opponents who chose to stay instead of switching.
on top of that it has access to u-turn,meaning that its low speed is a blessing in disguise.

sure it may become unviable when new sticky web setters get introduced but at this moment it deserves to be on the viability list.
there are people on youtube saying that it is actually good.

I know that some players also run first impression, I am not saying that they are wrong,but I don't think that this move is that good on spidops.
the item focus sash lets it survive a hit.

EDIT: I want to add that it is certainly better than rabsca which is pure trash but somehow made it in lowest tier.
Masquerain is generally a better setter as it is faster and can offer some extra utility through its decent attacking power and Quiver Dance (it actually poses a threat to Great Tusk unlike Spidops who gets Spinned for free unless you burn your Tera to make it Ghost type). Also no offense but even in this new meta, 1100 is really low and replays of that level usually aren't valuable to prove a mon's viability.

Rabsca is ranked because it's one of two Revival Blessing users and far bulkier than Pawmot, meaning it can pull off cheese like Leppa RB or Sleep Talk+RB a slight bit better or compress Trick Room+Revival Blessing. Super niche but I see more reasons to go Rabsca>Pawmot than to go Spidops>Masquerain.
 
Masquerain is generally a better setter as it is faster and can offer some extra utility through its decent attacking power and Quiver Dance (it actually poses a threat to Great Tusk unlike Spidops who gets Spinned for free unless you burn your Tera to make it Ghost type). Also no offense but even in this new meta, 1100 is really low and replays of that level usually aren't valuable to prove a mon's viability.

Rabsca is ranked because it's one of two Revival Blessing users and far bulkier than Pawmot, meaning it can pull off cheese like Leppa RB or Sleep Talk+RB a slight bit better or compress Trick Room+Revival Blessing. Super niche but I see more reasons to go Rabsca>Pawmot than to go Spidops>Masquerain.
masquerain is kinda bad.
it is way too fragile and has way less options.
spidops's movepoole gives it a lots of customizability.
it can destroy screens with brick break, spidops can punish set up users with circle throw, spidops has access to taunt, spidops has access to both spikes and toxic spikes, it has 2 priority moves.

what does masquerain's movepool has to offer?
it has only one hazard, its only priority moves are physical.it does not have that much to offer.

edit: what about these replays then?
 
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BeeOrSomething

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I am here to preach corv
How come something like Kingambit is in A+ tier instead of the metal bird? It’s only a few spots of difference really but when they’re technically like an entire tier apart I can’t see it
Never really had struggles with kingambit while personally I’ve made excellent use of corv
Interested to see the reasoning

Also think mola arcanine and mimikyu are way too high and should not be above things lol lokix lol but that’s for another day
 
Masquerain also has Intimidate and Stun Spore to cripple something.

If Gholdengo is banned (not likely at the moment) I would even use Kricketune over Spidops, because it gets Taunt, preventing Defog from Corviknight. Of course, I am biased to Spidops, since he is uglier than waking up at 7 am on Monday, but even without that factor, it's still terrible.
 
masquerain is kinda bad.
it is way too fragile and has way less options.
spidops's movepoole gives it a lots of customizability.
it can destroy screens with brick break, spidops can punish set up users with circle throw, spidops has access to taunt, spidops has access to both spikes and toxic spikes, it has 2 priority moves.

what does masquerain's movepool has to offer?
it has only one hazard, its only priority moves are physical.it does not have that much to offer.

edit: what about these replays then?
You mention all these moves for Spidops but they're frankly all irrelevant. Besides, it only has four moveslots--how are you fitting all of Webs, UTurn, Taunt, Spikes, TSpikes, Circle Throw, Brick Break, First Impression, Sucker Punch?

But since it's horribly slow it pretty much never gets to use those. Having Spikes and TSpikes alongside Webs is cool on paper, but since Spidops is slower than like everything, not all that bulky, and very obviously going to be used as a lead, the more likely scenario is that you're able to only set one hazard and then die at the start of turn 2. Granted Masquerain often has this as well, but Masq at least forces the opponent's hand a bit more because its speed means that it at least doesn't get outsped and 2HKOd by the literal entire opposing team in most games. Taunt would be cool for something like Corvi, but Spidops needs to run a fucktonne of speed to even outpace it (at which point you sort of lose your slow U-Turn too) and Corvi's Defog is pretty blockable by Gholdengo either way. The removal you actually want to stop is the Paradonphans' Rapid Spin, and since Masquerain at least threatens a OHKO on Great Tusk with Hurricane while also outpacing ones that don't run max speed, it does that a lot better.

The "replays" you provided are not even OU lmao, they're low-ladder Uber--a very underdeveloped meta known to have a lot of new players. If you can't get high ladder yourself, you could look for stuff like tour replays or other high-ladder players using the mon in question, but YouTube videos aren't exactly the greatest source either.
 
View attachment 474446
B- -> B or higher

I feel Fire-type Paldean Tauros is better than everything currently in B- right now. It has direct competition with Skeledirge as a defensive Fire, but having access to Intimidate, Bulk Up, Body Press, Will-o-Wisp, and a solid Fire/Fighting typing gives it a solid physically defensive presence in its own set of ways. It's one of the tier's best Chien-Pao answers, unlike Skeledirge, and naturally handles other mons such as Roaring Moon, Dragonite (especially Tera Normal Dragonite), Kingambit, and Breloom (watch for Spore). Tera-Flying only expands this mon's checklist, annoying the hell out of the Paradox Donphans, Garchomp, Quaquaval, and Ting-Lu. The Grounds can't touch it with Earthquake / Headlong Rush and it now resists Great Tusk's Close Combat and only neutrally hit by Aqua Step. Being significantly faster than Skeledirge with its Base 100 Speed is also notable as it lets it creep on targets like Breloom to avoid the Spore or extremely fat Tank Chomp builds. It's also not as crippled by Knock Off as Skeledirge is, being only neutrally hit by SR and resisting Knock Off itself.

Its signature Raging Bull move is crucial for letting you deal with the many Screens HO teams running around while also just being a strong attack for it overall, especially after some Bulk Ups. Protect is also a decent option on it, letting it rack in Leftovers recovery and scouting Choiced attacks.
I do like Tauros fire and you make good points but its really held back by the fact it doesn't have a switch move imo. In my opinon Skeledirge is objectively the better OU defensive fire in the current meta though because.

-Skele has a way better HP stat with around the same defense and sp. def. 5 point difference each but same total amount of SpD/Def making it take neutral hits better.
-Huge Defense stat pokémon most notably dondozo, garganacl and Defense stat boost moves like Iron defense + Bulk Up are all super popular and pretty much on every team meaning they can set up on taruos but not skele typically in most cases although depends on the scenario. Calm mind exist too but with Unaware it doesnt matter to skeledirge so you can deal with alot of special walls too.
-Skele also has a better movepool for its role with torch song, a move that increases all of his other stab moves with each hit. Yawn for phasing and forcing switches, WoW, roar, etc. Yawn/WoW + Hex is also very strong. This makes Skeledirge hit way harder in 2+ turn trading in most cases where as close combat will make u weaker and worse in extended trades or cause a situation making u switch out where skele can stay in and potentially sweep.
-Insanely better recovery with slack off. You can run rest + chesto on Tauros but then you cant use heavy duty boots or any other item where skele can use slack off + left overs.
-Huge Defense stat pokémon most notably dondozo, garganacl , Iron defense + Bulk are super pretty much on every team. Calm mind exist too but with Unaware it doesnt matter to skeledirge.
-Tera fairy is really popular too from what ive experienced so both your attacks are resisted
-Tauros also has really steep coemption as a fighting type slot where there are way stronger fighting types rn like annihilape, tusk, valiant etc. With wider movepools.
-Tauros is definitely better in the memes department with endure + cud chew + liechi/salac berry though.

In term of the b- rank i feel most those picks def deserve higher than tauros because you can either fit them on more teams as they have more sets that are viable, less competition for the slot or fufill their niche better than tauros fufills his.
-Gyrados has more options for sets to make it work in more teams + setup
-Hawl hits harder + can set up and has the type you would be tera into already to deal with the pokemon you mentioned.
-Hippodown has the sand thing going for him. better hp/def and roughly same sp.Def
-Iron Jugulis doesnt pack enough firepower to sweep alone but has u turn, fufills its roll better but imo still trash cause the competition is stiffer for the slot
-Orthworm has shed tail +spikes + stealth rock + ground immunity letting u switch into ground attacks
-Pelipper hits like a like a fucking truck in rain
-Silterwing has first impression, higher att stat, and a switch move. uturn alone makes it better.

overall tauros is fun but skele is def better.
 
You mention all these moves for Spidops but they're frankly all irrelevant. Besides, it only has four moveslots--how are you fitting all of Webs, UTurn, Taunt, Spikes, TSpikes, Circle Throw, Brick Break, First Impression, Sucker Punch?
I am talking about its customizability.
of course you don't use them all.
But since it's horribly slow it pretty much never gets to use those. Having Spikes and TSpikes alongside Webs is cool on paper, but since Spidops is slower than like everything, not all that bulky, and very obviously going to be used as a lead, the more likely scenario is that you're able to only set one hazard and then die at the start of turn 2.
its defenses aren't as bad as they look so there are times where it gets the chance to use them.
its low speed is a blessing in disguise since it has access to u-turn.
Granted Masquerain often has this as well, but Masq at least forces the opponent's hand a bit more because its speed means that it at least doesn't get outsped and 2HKOd by the literal entire opposing team in most games. Taunt would be cool for something like Corvi, but Spidops needs to run a fucktonne of speed to even outpace it (at which point you sort of lose your slow U-Turn too) and Corvi's Defog is pretty blockable by Gholdengo either way. The removal you actually want to stop is the Paradonphans' Rapid Spin, and since Masquerain at least threatens a OHKO on Great Tusk with Hurricane while also outpacing ones that don't run max speed, it does that a lot better.
okay I see your point that masquerain is not as bad as I thought, but still spidops should be in the viability list, even if it is lower than masquerain.
 
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